guestion about flying in european airspace

[mattpilot]

I was curious as to how similar the US system and the European system is.

In the US, you can basically fly anywhere you want without filing a flight plan. I'm told in europe you have to file a flight plan for every little trip. Is that true? I am most interested in the situation around germany & austria.

If true, how would that work with a helicopter taking off from your backyard and flying to a friends place some 50+ miles away?

[ebbr2]

Policy here in Europe is that it is recommended to use a flightplan for any flight.

Then there are some rules, maybe I'm not 100% correct because I has been a while but:

Flightplan required:
- When using more then one CTR
- When using controlled airpace, airways.
- When crossing borders

Especially the crossing borders issue is the reason for the necessity of a flightplan.

From my homebase, 45 minutes of flight time in any direction get's me in another country. For that reason, we tend to make more flightplans then I used to do in the US.


Off course, a flight plan can also be filed in flight 10' before activation.
Also a little bit of smart talk en being nice to the ATC, guys and girls, in few area's in Europe can get you through certain zones.

I wouldn't try in in LHR, FRA, AMS etc...

[RUDAS]

its good airmanship to file for even the shortest trips.:cool:

[mattpilot]

thanks for the replies. Clears up some issues... though what about my example?

What if i fly from my backyard to a friends backyard without touching any control zone or even going anywhere near an airfield? What if this flight crosses the border from austria to germany ?



How would you file something like that? Just give the Lat/long as positions?

[JeroenC]

You can't land on a non-landing designated spot - it would violate the 500 ft rule.
So, you would always be able to give an airport designator.
If this applies to Heli's I don't know.
If so, how do emergency heli's arrange this?

Here in Europe flying a Robinson 22 costs over 300 euro (that's 360 dollar!!) an hour, so this is not a practical problem anyway.
I flew it in Florida for 200 dollar, so that's quite a difference.

Anyway, you are not OBLIGED to file a plan for every trip, but you ARE if you're crossing borders.

I stand to be coorected on anything.

Hope this helps!

Greetz,

Jeroen.

[IO540]

mattpilot

For your flight, assuming outside Class A-D, you just fly it. No FP required. If Class A-D then you need to get zone transit.

The above is for VFR. For IFR, helicopters, you need the full IR plus I believe there are requirements as regards the # of engines.

[Keef]

The full answer is "it depends" - on which country, where you're going, flight conditions, who you're carrying, and so on.

In most of Europe, you can fly in the same country without filing an FPL. If you want to cross an international border (with a few exceptions), you will need to file an FPL.

You need an FPL to cross controlled airspace in some countries: in the UK, you can do that by radio without needing to fill in paperwork first.

Some European countries require an FPL for every flight, even VFR and over a short distance.

You need to get hold of the relevant book - if IFR, it's Jepp or equivalent. if VFR and crossing several countries, I prefer Bottlang because all the plates for all the countries look the same.

[englishal]

I suppose an RT call constitutes a flight plan, just like in the UK when crossing a Class D zone, getting a zone transit.

[WestWind1950]

hi mattflight,

in Germany you do NOT need a flight plan for local or cross-country VFR flights. For controlled airspace you don't need a written flight plan either, just a request per radio and get your clearance. Cross-country night flying requires a flight plan, though, as does IFR. The strictest airspace in Germany is class "C"... we have no "B" or "A".

You CANNOT land in any non-certified field without permission from the authorities.... and that is not easy to get! Air rescue can land under a specific regulation (for saving lives, etc.), but for normal flights it's illegal. You cannot even land at a local glider field if that field isn't certified for helicopters. If you have the owners permission, then you can, for a fee, apply to the local authority for permission.

Hope this info helped you... have a nice time!

Westy

[mattpilot]

hmm took me a while to find this thread again... some one moved it :suspect:


Anyhow - thanks for all your answers - yes that does clear things up. But i'd like to follow up on your reply WestWind with a few more questions :)

Suppose the Helicopter would be privately owned in a rural area in southern germany. How hard would you suppose it is to get authorization from authorities to park the thing in your backyard (assuming you own a piece of land where you wouldn't bother anybody with the noise ) ?

[IO540]

Don't know about Germany but suspect it comes down to Planning regulations, enforced by complaints from neighbours and legal action by the local government :O

Here in the UK we have a 28 day rule, so the aircraft can be stationed anywhere with the landowner's permission, and beyond that one needs Planning Permission - unless nobody complains which is VERY unlikely.

On UK-only matters: It is an interesting question whether parking a plane all year round in a field but flying it only 28 days a year is OK; I was once told it isn't because parking it constitutes Change of Use for the land. OTOH it is on wheels, is movable, and buildings (e.g. horse stables) on wheels are a routine way around the Change of Use regulation....

[Flyin'Dutch']

MP,

Check in the Jeppesen guide but I believe Austria is one of the few EU countries which requires a FPL for every flight even VFR.

Other than that Keef has given the correct advice on them.

FD

[WestWind1950]

Suppose the Helicopter would be privately owned in a rural area in southern germany. How hard would you suppose it is to get authorization from authorities to park the thing in your backyard (assuming you own a piece of land where you wouldn't bother anybody with the noise ) ?

sorry... just as difficult. Just as 10540 said, lots of other permissions needed.... land owner, aviation authorities, city authorities, perhaps neighbors and unforntunately now a days the :mad: environmentalists and nature lovers... especially when it is outside of build up areas. Under certain conditions commercial operations can land in industrial parks, etc. but only max. 4 times a month at the same spot and it has to be a "no-known-date-in-advance" type of thing (like parts for a factory, etc.). ANY aircraft, including paragliders, MUST take off at a spot with either certification or special permission. The same goes for landings, unless it's flying abilities make landungs sometimes unknown in advance (gliders, balloons, etc.).

I believe in Spain you also need flightplans for every flight.....

Westy

[Aim Far]

Having to file a flightplan for every cross border flight is not such a big deal when you're touring (as long as AIS don't lose them).

You can usually file a VFR plan with an EOBT of 1/2hr after you arrive at the airport. If filing is your first task, by the time you've got pre-flighted and fueled, you'll be at the EOBT anyway, so there's no real time lost.

And as I understand it (and happy to be corrected here), VFR plans are not sent to anyone other than departure and destination airports. So you can file to route direct and then do what you like en route. If you give an estimated time en route which is on the generous side, you can muck about as much as you like.

One other point, you don't technically need a flight plan when flying between Austria and Germany (according to Bottlang), though if you're flying into controlled airspace in Austria it does seem to help if you can at least say you are on a VFR flightplan, even if they've never heard of you.

[M609]

As long as the "Single European Sky" project has not been completed, there is no such thing as "european airspace". There are so many differences that it can make your head spin.

But, since filing is not a huge task, I think you shold file! It makes my job so much easier! :D
The more I know about a flight, the better the service I can provide. Actually, in several european countries, the FPL is sendt to the enroute ATSUs as well.

And to the you german lot: Please file a FPL next time you fly to the north cape on holiday, or brush up the english RT procedures! ;);) :ok:

We're not clairvoyant you know...... :ok: :) :)

[mattpilot]

Thanks guys. Again, it is much clearer now.

Where could i find/buy Bottlang while being in the US ?



Anyhow, how do corporate guys get around this? Do they build their own helipad and get it certified at great expense or are there no 'Donald Trumps' in germany that use helos to commute?

The person i'm inquiring for isn't exactly unknown and does a great deal to promote the local economy of those small towns in south eastern germany. Based on that i'm hoping its not to hard to get authorization to station a helo there. Said person would like to fly from germany to austria, roughly a distance of 150km, to save time. Though if you'd land at the nearest airports approved for helo operations your actually wasting time and a car ride direct would be faster.

Btw, i don't believe the flight would involve any Control areas since you could technically fly 500 ft AGL and thus stay below the Linz Control area.

[Bernd Podhradsky]

Hey!

I am from Austria, so I can tell you a lot about flying in Austria/Germany area.

First of all, flights within austria do not require a flightplan everytime (I'm talking about VFR flights, of course).

Flights crossing the border require a filed flight plan, except flights to Germany (there is a special agreement, that no flight plan has to be filed). As far as I know it's also planned to get Italy in that agreement, so you could fly from Germany to Italy without filing a flight plan.

This is what the law says, of course. I would recommend to file a flight plan whenever you plan to do a longer trip. For local VFR flights or even VFR flights between to smaller airfields I never file a flight plan.

Other important things, that I'd like to mention:

Wien Information (Vienna Information)
Can be reached on 118.52 (and on another frequency I don't know by heart). You don't have to contact them by law, but I recommend to do that whenever you fly around Austria (uncontrolled airspace). They can give you traffic information, weather reports and vectoring, when you get lost and it's simply a security factor to - at least - listen to the frequency. Because it's annoying flying around Austria, having Wien Information tuned in to listen and having traffic not being on that frequency.

Other things that come in my mind will come later ;).

Bernd