Mail On Sunday Apache story

[Fg Off Max Stout]

The Mail On Sunday, most commonly known for its sometimes excessive right wing stance and often blind unquestioning support for the Armed Forces, seems to have taken a lesson in journalistic stirring from the Mirror.

Today it published an article entitled 'Shocking Evidence of American Brutality', linked to here (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=301143&in_page_id=1770). This story in turn has a link to some sighting video from an AH-64 here (http://www.warblogging.com/iraq-apache.mpeg ) . The video is probably not suitable for sensitive types.

You can draw your own conclusions from the video vs the story, but to me it smacks of gutter journalism - try to generate a 'sensational' story when there really isn't one there. Anyone who agrees with the copy or is shocked by the content of the video clearly has no concept of what warfare is about. I don't know what these people imagined was going on in Iraq in the early months of last year, but I would expect everyone to realise that in full-on war, people get shot. This is not brutality. This is a fact of war.

I am an SH pilot (who has been to Iraq and will again soon), not an IntO or apache type, but to me, the 'object' at 'left of arc' looks very much like an anti aircraft gun, with a hot barrel, behind a towing vehicle. A chappy is seen to climb out of what I would suggest is the gunner's seat before getting some hot lead. A legitimate target. The Mail is known for fairly crappy journalism but at least is normally on side. This whole story stinks and misleads the general public.

Rant over. Discuss.

[BEagle]

The same gung-ho mentality of brutal overkill which was evident back in Viet Nam. The left-of-arc 'target' looks to me like a farm tractor with a hot exhaust pipe and rear transmission towing a harrow.

"He's wounded"
"Hit him"

And people wonder why much of the world doesn't love Americans?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Beag's,

Tractor is a bit of a leap of faith however I totally aggree with the rest of your sentiment:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

A_b_i_w, it looks just like the old, pre-cab tractors of my youth still used in that part of the world. Look carefully and you can see the steering wheel, mirror and the hot rear transmission casing. No AAA system I've ever seen looked like that, nor would it be stuck out in the open in that way with a hot barrel after being used.

Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise.......

No evidence of secondary explosions which would be expected if this really was a AAA site and crew.

[Av18tor]

What a bunch of Heroes!!! At least it wasnt our own guys!!

Lets all shout "woop woop woop!"

And they dont understand why they are hated and not trusted!!

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Makes me sick of being from the western world!!



:ugh: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Well gentlemen, as I said I am not an IntO and I will now bow down to Beag's superior tractor recognition. I found a longer piece of video on the internet, from which the aformentioned clip is taken. If you have broadband and file sharing software search for a video file entitled 'Apache kills in Iraq' (36MB).

Yes I was wrong the AAA is a tractor and the thing below it is a furrow. However, before the Mail clip kicks off you see that the chaps are up to no good, moving weapons into the field from the truck.

The American (and allegedly the Brits') handling of Iraqi POWs recently has been deplorable and I feel this article is just trying to jump on the bandwagon.

I still think that this particular article is a non-story.

[Archimedes]

With a sloooooooooooooooooooowwwwwww connection, I've not had time to look at the footage yet - but from the discussion it sounds remarkably similar to an mpeg of a tractor being shot up by an AH-64 that was doing the rounds in January (it was discussed on the army means that dare not speak its URL).

If it is the same, it would seem that either a) the Mail is very, very slow or b) that there is an element of bandwaggoning [is that a word?] going on.

Can anyone confirm whether it is the same footage? If it isn't, farm labouring in Iraq has become vastly more dangerous...

[Trumpet_trousers]

.........I've renounced tractor spotting, and have moved into the better world of air recirculation........................
Yes, you've guessed it......I'm an Ex-Tractor Fan!!:D :D :D

(On a more serious note, it seems like a good 'ol Massey Ferg or similar to me)

[West Coast]

Beagle

Guess who is hated only slightly less than the Americans around the world?

Hint, your one of them. Got them on both sides of you, the Irish and the French.

[Pilgrim101]

War is hell, but good grouping, good grouping ? :}

I'd be interested to see the footage of the previous ten minutes or so to put the scenario in context. (For example, maybe they were just shooting in the air to celebrate Jaffar's wedding ?)

West Coast, I really do hope you mean the Welsh :E

[BEagle]

No - he means the Klingons!

When I was serving in a combined ops theatre to which we were regularly deployed over the last 10 years, I noticed a distinct change in the manner of our allies. Earlier, we had been involved in supporting armed recce of certain areas; during my last deployment there was a sickening attitude of "You guys will go stir them up so we can bomb them". In other words the tempo had become increasingly aggressive for no clear reason. I even heard a comment that "We'd better get something today, otherwise the ??? ANG will go home without having bombed anything". This would never have been acceptable in previous years; quite who was responsible for this alarming change in attitude, I do not know. It surely wasn't Saddam!

The truths beginning to emerge are backing up precisely what many already suspected. I was flamed for daring to suggest that there was a bit of a Reichstag fire reaction after the World Trade Center outrage (Goebbels was desperate to prove that the fire was the work of Communists so that he could erase them- Bush seemed equally hell bent on trying to find an Iraqi link with the WTC attacks) - the truth about the planning to remove Saddam (not an unreasonable concept, of course, so long as there was a sound, internationally supported reason) seems to be backing up all the doubters' suspicions.

[spud]

I'm fairly sure that you're right Beag's, which leads me to conclude that the boys (&girls) were sent into harm's way, some not to return, on the strength of a known falsehood.
If that's not an act of treason - what is?

[BEagle]

And more like a Fordson Major than a Fergie, judging by the exhaust position??;) ;)

[Pilgrim101]

Yes Beagle,

Have to agree on a distinct aggressive stance from most of my cousins out here.

Saddam just flipped the finger at the US once too often. Qaddafi saw the results and turned in for the rest of his life despite the macho rhetoric to save face with some of the people around him, who perceive his rapprochement as weakness.

Iran has lovely people but the clerics ensure it remains a third world toilet, Afghanistan is as under control as it could ever be given the Kalshnikov culture and basic enforced lack of intellect of the male population there. I honestly don't think the Americans are in a mood to give a stuff what anyone else might think about them for the time being. The populations of various countries will remain poverty stricken and/or with their noses pressed up against the window for a long time to come due to their leaders stance and celebration of 9/11.

Problem is our 24 hour media fed culture wants instant results, instant sanitised, bloodless victory in War, instant satisfaction, instant democracy.....

Interestingly, if you look at West Germany, Taiwan and Japan, they all benefited handsomely from American "interference" after the War. Who is to say Iraq might not be a glowing example of democracy and industrial growth too in a couple of decades ?:8

Luckily, Vickers/ROF never made Tractors :E

[corsair]

I saw this video months ago on another site. Resurrecting it now is just opportunism and an example of how the media in general has swung further against the war based on the current scandals.

The video was picked over by many people. The long version makes it clear what's happening. For those of you who think they were innocent farmers. Ask yourself what they were doing farming in the middle of the night? When the first man is hit, look at the reaction of second man. Does he dive for cover? No, like a good soldier he desperately tries to unwrap something on his tractor. Not the reaction of farmer. The third man dies because he's there.

From my point of view it's war, not the sanitised version we've been fed. It's nasty and unpleasant

But it gives Beagle and Av18tor and all the others a chance to exercise the anti American prejudices.
Well that's OK then.

[BEagle]

Please accept that I am not 'anti-American'. Yes, I'm certainly anti a number of American policies, attitudes and personalities, but not so generally.

Quite a bit of farming goes in in the middle of the night since the invention of the headlamp. It's a ****'s sight cooler, for one thing.

The cold-blooded killing of the wounded man by the Apache crew is, however, utterly inexcusable.

[November4]

A link to the video was posted on this forum late last year. But because of the nature of the video it was removed by the moderators.

[West Coast]

C'mon beag's wear your colors proudly. You are most certainly anti American. Your sniping goes far beyond politics and personalities. You can talk all you want, your body of work speaks with a far different voice.

[Bullet Tooth Tony]

I'm certainly not anti American, I love the place and most of the people.

But.......

Your boss is a complete buffoon who makes even our government look competant (except Prescott of course!) and I think that the American people and most of the rest of us for that matter will be paying for his "war against terrorrism" for many years to come.

[Bill O'Average]

Beags, for once I have to agree with you. Unfortunatley, some wish not to see the wood for the trees.

As soon as you criticise, they brand you anti this, anti that.

BTT, scary aint it.

[West Coast]

Oh boy
The whole WC thing, jeez haven't heard that one... man you got me, first time this week that has been used. Why dont you head out to the playground with that juvenile mentality.

If you want to debate, then do so without that silly sh!t. If you wish to be known as a nimrod continue with it. Your choice.

Beagle has for the years I have been active on the site, and for the time before I first posted consistantly registered opinions that cover all spectrums and are mostly negative about anything American. Feel free to correct me, show me how he has tended to support the American standpoint?

[MadsDad]

West Coast.

Agreed in the cold light of day the post was puerile and from the heat of anger and has been removed. But the original reason remains.

BEagles posts (at least the 'non-techie' ones) on this and other threads have generally been supportive of the alliance stance. He does not, however, seem to accept that it is right under all circumstances and on this occasion he has criticised the behaviour of an individual in a single action. This has apparently, in your eyes at least, instantly made him totally anti-American and his views unworthy of any attention.

Since he trained for, and presumably expected to use the training in action, a job fighting a war he must also have an understanding of the circumstances under which one is allowed to kill and to be allowed to make valid comment if the rules are exceeded.

[FJPhotography]

The 'innocent farmers' in the shot who are 'farming' at night because 'it's cooler', were actually moving weapons and ammo for use at a later date against British and American forces. A subsequent visit to the scene revealed that the men had been armed, there were weapons in the truck on the right, and that the man furthest to the left does not run to get his 'hoe' out of a bag (because he's just there doing some farming while it’s cool), but is actually pulling out an RPG.

As for the guy on the right, it was his choice to be there. Had he lived (and the video shows no evidence that he did not), there's a good chance he'd be out there now plotting and executing operations against British or American military and civilian personnel.

[tradewind]

Regardless of what (if any) weapons were aboard the truck or other vehicle, and what (if anything) the third guy would have done in the future, I don't see how an obviously injured man crawling on the ground is a DIRECT threat to the helos. ROE?

[Flap62]

Since when did the wounded get special protection ? Lets get real - it's one thing for grunts who have over-run a position to make provisions for the wounded, but quite another for a helicopter to just let someone escape. If they were convinced that he was a legitimate target (and from preceding posts it would appear that he was) then the crew did a good job. Better they eliminate a hostile, than that chap next day puts an RPG through their rotor disc.
Personally, I thought it was great.

[Jackonicko]

Westie,

You really must take it on trust that being robustly critical of current US foreign policy, to have a negative view of your President (and to believe that the legitimacy of his election may be questionable) and to deplore abuses of prisoners, unnecessarily gung-ho military actions (and sometimes gung ho is very much needed!) and occasionally poor kit (preferring the Airbus to the 767 as a tanker) does not make anyone 'anti-American'. If it did, then you could probably brand at least 25% of your own population as being anti-American - including many Democrats and some 'softer' Republicans like John McCain.

Then some of 'us Europeans' have further issues about America on trade, the environment (just sign up to Kyoto, you messy ba$tards, you're killing our planet!) and some even have some problem with US 'cultural values'.....

But many of your sternest critics love America, love the Americans they have met, choose America as their holiday destination of choice, perhaps day-dream about emigrating, and find much about American society to admire and even envy. To a certain extent, the USA gets stick because we perhaps expect too much from such a great country.

There are people who are anti-American, but I'm not one of them, and I'd guess that nor is BEagle.

[Mooney12]

The current American administration are a bunch of right wing christian fundamentalist psycho's. A few facts about Bush:

- A drunk and a drop out at uni.
- Scored less than 40% in his aptitude tests for the reserve airforce yet was still allowed in.
- Skipped Vietnam
- Is obsessed by war, i.e. his video collection on Airforce one consists only of war movies, yet he has never been in one himself. He won't be happy unless he is fighting a war.

Take a look at a concept known as "pax americana", type it into google. This illustrates the extremism and idiotic nature of the current US administration. Quite imperialistic.

The American military:

A definate generalisation but you get the point:

- Bunch of hill billy non-educated white trash who are'nt happy unless they kill people and/or abuse prisoners.
- Many reservists in Iraq are very ill trained and ill disciplined.

Given this backdrop it angers me that Tony Blair sticks so close to America to the point that their terrible military tactics and bloodthirsty culture (see video clip) reflects very badly upon us British. Indeed our closeness with America, in particular this current administration is putting our national security in real danger. Its only a matter of time before London gets hit. There is no need for it. There was no need for the Iraq war.

I am not anti-American, but clearly George Bush (jnr) is incompetant and is simply not clever enough to do his job. I refer to his press conference a month or so ago when he simply could not answer rather simple questions because he had not prepared. It is my opinion that the reputation of the British military will suffer continuously until we make it clear that there is a difference between the two of us.

[West Coast]

Jacko, et al

My conclusions on Beagle are not based on his likes or dislikes of a particular piece of equipment or who resides in the White House, thats fair game. It is a deeper sense I find with him. Ranging from social commentary to daily life in America. If I used preference of aircraft, car, etc as the metric then I would expect to be roundly criticized. Instead I look for something that speaks more about people and beliefs.

Mooney12
Your not anti- American, your ill informed and a willing victim of someones biases.

Back to the video. If its true that the farmer was toting weapons, does he then become a legit target? Beagle I would like to hear your answer. You weren't there I know but you condemned the action from the arm chair without all the facts, so you should feel equally free to admit your were wrong.

[Mooney12]

OMG Trust me WestCoast I am not 'ill-informed' or a 'willing victim of someone elses biases'. Less of the patronising remarks please. I follow politics closely and have based my OWN views on the daily carnage I see on TV. George Bush is stupid - fact. He is right wing - fact. He is obsessed with war and particularly Iraq - fact! He is like a deer in bright headlights when asked questions without his advisors telling him what to say- fact.

I am a big fan of Bill Clinton and I hope John Kerry gets the chance to emulate his success by replacing the incompetance and extremism that is George Bush.

A further note on George W. While governor of Texas he executed more prisoners that any previous governor of Texas or any governor of any other state.

[West Coast]

Mooney12

You have a hard time defining opinion from fact.

If we are at war, yes I want my President engrossed in it.

The general definition of a right wing type is a conservitive Republican. He and I share that same stereotype in your mind.

As to your other comments about the US military. How do you come to the conclusion that we are generally hill billys? I was a member of said force, as was your boy Kerry. I guarantee neither of us was a hill billy. Did Clinton go to Vietnam? No he didn't nor do I think its an issue, just the same. John McCain is a conservitive Republican, he spent just a little bit of time there.
What does the death penalty have to do with Bush? Clinton supported it at both state and Federal levels. One of the leading groups opposing the death penalty in the (the New Abolitionist) damns the Clintons policies for tripling the rate of executions.

Time for a little more informed research on your part.

[Mooney12]

There is a world of difference between Clinton and Bush, an absolute world of difference. Clinton may not have been in a war, but at least he isnt obsessed with it. At least he had the intelligence to realise that Iraq was no threat. The issue here is not the death penalty, but simply an example to demonstrate Bush's personality. As for Kerry being "my guy", he's not, but anybody is better than Bush.

As for my difficulty in differentiating between fact and opinion. Bush is stupid, that is fact. Anyone who cannot provide an attempt at an answer to the question "what is your biggest mistake since 9/11", is stupid. For godsake I have a notepad with a bunch of dumb Bush statements at the top of every page. Quotes include

"most of our imports come from outside America". He is stupid.

As for my "hill billy" comments. I stated that was a definate generalisation.

[West Coast]

You said at least one thing correctly, there is a world of difference between Clinton and Bush. Thank god.

Tell me, what good is a definate generalization? From where do you draw your knowledge about the make up of the US military?

I await Beagle answering my follow on question.

[mini]

Irrelevant of what unit executed this action.

In the absence of their TOE's this video records murder.

The US Military needs to change focus from tech assets to its action on the ground.

In short, they're f***ed when their battery fails.

[Mooney12]

WestCoast,

You are perhaps right. The US military is not made up of hill billy's. Although I did not mean that in the first place.

Perhaps I should change my language:

"The US military is made up of trigger happy soldiers, who "shoot anything that moves" ".

Is that more realistic?

Mooney

[West Coast]

No its not mooney.
Do you purport to have the beat of the million plus US military?


"You are perhaps right. The US military is not made up of hill billy's. Although I did not mean that in the first place"

Why would you type it if you didn't mean it? Your credibility comes in to question now. Seems your either a troll or simply one who puts the mouth in gear before the brain.

[BEagle]

Hello, West Coast. My apology for the delay in answering you, but I've had very little internet access over the last few days.

I can accept that the Apache attack on the specified target was legitimate if it was known that these were enemy combatants. Hopefully they weren't anti-Saddam militia.

But I do NOT accept that the deliberate murder of the injured man was in any way acceptable.

I'm still waiting for the precise reasons why that bumbling idiot Dubya and the slimy poodle Bliar went to war - as are millions of others. I'd thought that, if good Americans like Colin Powell had sound reasons to convince Dubya, then there must have been some clear and unequivocal hard intelligence. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to support that yet though.

As for your other views of what you perceive to be my 'un-American' views:

1. The 767 tanker scandal speaks for itself.

2. The Iraqi prisoner abuse is a scandal. But I'm certainly prepared to accept that it was the result of the acts of a few isolated sadists, not the outcome of a general culture.


I was also frankly appalled at the change of attitude at the multi-national base where I was regularly detached during my last couple of years in the military. The US forces had become deliberately provocative towards the Iraqis, itching to shoot at the first excuse. The attitude of some of the ANG F-16 units was beyond belief: "You guys better stir us up some action today or we'll be going home without having bombed anything". And that's a direct quote.


Yes, I have some negative views about the US. But plenty of positive ones as well.

And sign up to Kyoto!

[Mooney12]

Its not my credibilty thats in question, but the US militarys. I don't purport to have the "beat" of the entire US military. However when Britain goes to war with America it always seems strange to me that British soldiers are many times more scared of over zealous pilled up US pilots than they are of the actual enemy. Videos such as this don't help my opinion either.

[BEagle]

If this is the way they treat tourists, it's hardly surprising that some of them treat real prisoners even worse:

US claps British tourists in irons

The Foreign Office is investigating a surge in complaints about the heavy-handed treatment of British visitors to America by US immigration officers.

Tourists and business travellers have been detained for hours — sometimes in handcuffs or leg chains — and then denied entry into the country for minor transgressions, some of which have turned out to be unfounded.

Some have been deported after being falsely accused of having terrorist links. Dozens of other visitors have complained about aggressive behaviour from airport officials.

A security crackdown in the wake of the September 11 atrocities in 2001 has led to a general rise in the number of complaints about US immigration, but last week the Foreign Office said it had been contacted by about 100 concerned Britons in the past 12 months.

A number of British travellers who claim to have been mistreated have raised their concerns with The Sunday Times.

Savinder Bual, 28, from Merton, south London, flew to America at the end of March to make an educational film. On arriving at New York’s JFK airport, she was separated from her colleagues and quizzed by an immigration officer about a trip to San Francisco she had made in 1996.

“He asked me how long I had been in San Francisco that time and I explained that I had stayed three months in my university holidays,” said Bual.

“Then he said, ‘You do know how many days are in a month? A waiver is only for 90 days and you stayed three months.’ He seemed very smug that he had actually found something to pin on me.”

The officer claimed Bual had overstayed by four days and ignored the fact that she had visited America again in 1998 without the issue being raised. Her feet were shackled and she was held in a detention room overnight.

The humiliating experience reduced Bual to tears and she was deported 12 hours after her arrival in New York. But she has since discovered from an old diary that she had not overstayed in 1996. “I was shocked to think this goes on and I hope that the Americans realise they cannot treat people like this,” she said.

Another victim is Neil Forrester, 33, chief technical officer of an IT firm in Brighton. He was held by immigration officers at Los Angeles airport in February 2003.

Forrester, who was travelling with his daughter and pregnant wife, had his passport stolen during a visit to America in 1996 which meant that the immigration services had no record of him leaving the country on that occasion.

Accused of overstaying, Forrester was handcuffed in front of his family and led to a detention room where he was photographed, fingerprinted and body-searched. He was not allowed to call his wife or a lawyer and was deported after 24 hours. He is now banned from entering America for 10 years.

“This is a real problem as my wife and daughter are both US citizens and I can’t visit our family over there,” he said.

British citizens of Asian origin, particularly Muslims, appear to have been affected the most by the security clampdown. Adam Riaz Khan, 24, from Enfield, north London, was detained in February at Atlanta airport while in transit from Mexico to Britain.

“They asked whether I had been to Iraq, Iran, Somalia or Afghanistan, and when they found the Koran in my bag I could see they thought they were on to something,” he said. “They insisted that Bin Laden was my uncle and asked me if I thought America should be an Islamic state.”

Riaz Khan, who had been on holiday in Mexico for a month, was also asked if he knew how to make bombs. He was deported to London after being questioned for seven hours.

The Foreign Office says it is seeking an explanation from the US authorities about each complaint. British officials and their counterparts from other European Union countries have also jointly raised concerns “at various levels” in America.

“We take seriously complaints from British nationals about treatment they have received from American immigration,” a spokesman said. “But the Americans decide their policy.” Some 4m Britons visit the US each year.

The US Department of Homeland Security, which is responsible for immigration, said its officers were fair and professional and would correct any errors they had made.

(From today's Sunday Times)

Land of the what......?

[West Coast]

"some of which have turned out to be unfounded"

So some of it was with merit. As far as the land of the free, absolutely. However not without some vetting of foreigners and locals. Other than the shock of 911 I have noticed no changes to my personal freedoms. I come and go as I please with reasonable ease. I dont have to carry a national ID card, You may in the near future. I dont have cameras watching my every move as I stroll down main street.

Maybe they thought you were exporting your soccor hooligans. Or the next Richard Reid or other unsavory Brits.

A newspaper article you C&P somehow equates to the prisioner scandel and a general condemnation from you. You are simply trolling for a fight aren't you?
Has the Brit pictures been found to be fake by those who dearly dont want to admit the UK's possible culpability to the same as the US?
Even if they are fake, all we learned about prisioner abuse came from your boys in H block. No torture went on there did it Beagle? May I reccomend a good book? Read "The British Dimension" by Denis Faul and Raymond Murray. It might be an eye opener about British prision abuse and torture in NI. Your lot were excellent teachers.

[BEagle]

Gaff and net please, ghilly!

Err, 'some' means 'a few', not 'generally'.....

If they were football hooligans, thanks and please keep them!

Do your 'drivers' licences have photo id on them? Ours don't. A one-for-all credit card ID that serves for passport, driving licence and everything else requiring proof of identity would be quite handy - hopefully we'll get them one day.

[Mooney12]

"British prison abuse and torture in NI" - a lot of that is republican propaganda and lies - they are very good at that. They were'nt tortured or abused, Bobby Sands et al., starved themselves.

In fact the British military in N.Ireland were so damned constrained by rules and regulations set in place to prevent abuse etc.. that it constrained their operational effectiveness.

Pity the IRA did'nt follow the same rules. They claimed to be in a war, I did'nt see them wearing a uniform or adhering to the geneva convention. Bob Nairac - case example. The PIRA are a funny bunch. They murder 5 british soldiers and as soon as one of them gets it they claim torture and abuse.

Take a look at the Loughgall incident.

[West Coast]

No abuse in NI, now thats laughable, predictable and yet myopic all at the same time. Yup, the IRA were/still are thugs, doesn't relieve your crowd though does it?

Beagle
Its not whether they have your picture, your DNA or your favorite ice cream treat on it. It the purpose and statement behind its issuance. Your smart enough to know that the argument lies not with what you will get with it, its what you will lose with it. My pilot and instructor certs doesn't have my picture on it, does yours? Are you also so brainwashed to think nothing happened in H block?

[BEagle]

Sorry, West Coast, but I have no direct knowledge of what went on in the H-blocks - except that 'Internment without trial' caused sufficient resentment amongst the population for many to rally to the IRA cause.....

There probably were a few sadists acting very improperly there, just as there clearly are in Iraq.

One amusing piece of Anglo-American misunderstanding some years ago was that MacDonalds (who, I understand, sell things called 'burgers') were making compulsory IRA deductions from employee pay. This caused howls of anguish - until it was explained that they were for Individual Retirement Accounts, not the Irish Republican Army!

[West Coast]

Neat tidbit of info. I'm sure to this day someone in the UK is without doubt that McDonalds supported the IRA (the terrorist one, not the crappy retirement fund) and hates the US for it.

You use a curious word, direct. To me that infers first hand knowledge. Do you have direct knowledge of US prisioner abuse? For that matter do you have direct knowledge of UK travelers in the US being detained or is from the mass media?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

West Coast me ol' china,

We have two types of "****" in this thread:rolleyes:

In "The War Against Terrorism" who the heck knows the score but in "The War Against Twits" I reckon Beag's is way out in front:ok:

Irony and Monty Python, classic UK exports are just a couple of things our "Cousins" have never been able to grasp:E

Go Beag's Go Beag's Go Beag's..........Yeeeeeaaaaah:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Chimbu chuckles]

From watching the various interviews with low ranking US service men and women over the last few years you could be forgiven for believing they are Jerry Springer's audience, or indeed guests, in uniform.


Chuck

[BEagle]

West Coast, by 'direct', I mean that I have no information to substantiate any allegations of prisoner abuse in the H-blocks; the last time I was in Ireland was 1962! But I wouldn't rule out incorrect behaviour by isolated individuals and would certainly listen to any accurate reports of such.

Yes, the 'MacDonalds supports the IRA' rubbish is probably still believed by many. Although there certainly are certain establishments in the US which allegedly do support Irish republican groups. Once in Boston, we were advised that a certain bar was on such place - and that any collections made for the live band were more likely to end up going to terrorist organisations. So, as one does, we went there, had a few beers, scoffed the free Happy Hour food and then left before the band started!

Detention of travellers to the US? Certainly have talked to folk who've been messed around. One was an airline pilot who delivered a 747 and was then going to fly back on his own airline to the UK. So - one way ticket, pilot bag and no luggage. The security dimwits employed at the airport immediately raised the alarm as he fitted their 'profile'. Rude questioning and an intrusive search later, he was finally allowed to go.......

Several non-US companies who used to arrange winter seminars in Florida have now realised that their guests are unwilling to attend thanks to the heavy-handedness prevalent at airports. So now they use hotels in the Canary Islands instead.

Relatives in the travel industry tell me that people are now turning to places like Dubai insteard of Florida as, having been subjected to US entry procedures once, they're not prepared to tolerate them again.

[Pilgrim101]

West Coast

Several things pi$$ed us off in Ireland. One was the definite, highly succesful American fundraising efforts for the IRA and the supply of American weapons was also a pi$$er.

The failure of American Courts to extradite murderers like Joe Dougherty to the UK (a NATO Ally) under the so called Political Offence Exception to Extradition was one that gripped our $hit in particular.

The other is the perpetual Hollywood myth of the "Troubles" which are just stomach churning when you analyse the slaughter carried out by indiscriminate bombings and cynical attempts to blame the Police when things got out of hand and too many victims were claimed even for the IRA propaganda machine to whitewash. (Enniskillen, Hyde Park Corner, Harrods, Omagh etc etc)

McGuinness and Adams only started to come to heel when the Clinton administration read their bumps for them after the first WTC, McVeigh etc and put them on the hunting licence if any further terror attacks were carried out in the UK.

[BillHicksRules]

West Coast,

R U a lawyer?

Cheers

BHR

[Jeep]

Bloody good shooting if you ask me, once he got the range right of course.

When the whole video is watched, not just the cleverly edited quick version, you will see that the weapon was followed to that location. The weapon had an escort of terrorists intent on shooting down a helicopter. For once the terrorist didnt have the element of surprise and the good guys won 3:0.

[West Coast]

Jeep
Can you post a link to the complete unedited video? Be nice if posters could make a reasoned decision minus some crafty editing designed to skew opinion.


BHR
Negative ghostrider. Just what is it you do to pay the bills?


Pilgrim
I don't make any attempts to glam up the IRA. I see them in the same light as I do any other terrorists. Just the same a measure of a democracy is not how it treats the average citizen, its how it treats its worst. The happenings at H block speak to that concept, just the same as it does with the current scandel.
As to the general tone of your text. Do a little research in to Hamas funding that originates in the UK. Israel in the past had asked the UK govt to crackdown on terrorist fundraising efforts as the UK was the largest overseas source of funding. You mention extradition. I will look up your example if you look up
DR.Robert Kleasen. For 29 years the US sought his extradition for a double murder. He recently passed of natural causes and thus escaped proper justice. I dont know if Usama Bil Laden will be captured. I only hope your guys dont get him as its been said by high officials in the UK that he wont be extradited to the US if the death penalty is a possible outcome.


Beagle
Thanks for the clarification. The article you pasted, do you know anything about it other than having read it? Trying to figure out what your burden of proof is.

Being a commuter out of San Diego I underwent the same as the 747 pilot you mention. Far from the drama queen like sob stories, my experience has been less traumatic. I fit the same profile as he did for the same reasons. Received the same scrutiny, yet came away less scarred. On my way in a few minutes.
Security dimwits...nope no terrorist would ever think of dressing up as a pilot. I am probably treading on thin ice by even saying this much but a number of US airline crews have been surveiled while overseas. And not by local authorities either. Hotel rooms have been broken in to and uniforms and more importantly airline ID stolen. Enough said, this comes from info in the public domain.
As to the tourists picking destinations other than the US, smaller crowds for me when I venture to Disneyland in a few weeks. Been to Honolulu lately? The amount of tourists there has only increased by my man on the street observations.

[Paddy Don't Surf]

Looking at the video it looks to me to be a very professionally carried out operation - excellent shooting, 10/10. Little chit chat and clear communication and line of command.

All I can say is - 3 less to worry about.

As far as boggy land goes; having been the victim of ritual abuse and violence in that country for many years I wish I had the right to justice that so many of the republicans have made so much profit out of.

[Mooney12]

Well done US army !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Managed to bomb and kill an Iraqi wedding party, killing 40 people!!

The world is so much safer now - thank god for America!!

What would we do without them?

By the way. What does the US stand for in US army?

unbelievably stupid?

[zorrotfb]

'One Wedding and Forty Funerals'........a George W. Bush production.


I'll get me coat

[West Coast]

This would be the wedding party with the sniper rifles, large calibre weapons, sat gear, millions in dinars and foreign terrorists in attendance, Ok gotcha.

You going to make any more general statements you will have to retract again because they were wrong like last time you got a hold of a key board and you were called on your clueless statements?

Or will you be like the luvvies who condemned the killing of the innocent farmers in the video that generated this thread. Funny to hear them rail against the US. Murderers, oh those poor farmers out doing a touch of night farming in a war zone offed by the horrible Americans. Haven't heard squat since finding out those poor farmers were transporting weapons and were a legit target. The simple minds who condemn minus the basic clues or facts, many are here on the prune. Thankfully they show their hands early on and are easily discounted as nothing other than trolls.

[BEagle]

Easy, tiger!

The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable.

As for the 'wedding party' - my suspicion is that the 'celebrations' were being used in an attempt to smoke screen the terrorist activities you describe. Unsuccessfully!

West Coast - sound like a major coup in recovering all that evidence. Hope that they captured documents and computers as well, leading military intelligence higher up the trail to that $hit Bin Laden and his murderous gang of followers. For they are the ones ultimately responsible for the deaths of those women and children at the 'wedding', not the US.

[Mooney12]

Hmmm, Westcoast - your talking sh*t.

I just saw a news report on this. Their were no heavy weapons sniper rifles, large calibre weapons, sat gear, millions in dinars and foreign terrorists in attendance.

Their were:

- a few guns which every house in Iraq has.
- $1000. Hardly a huge amount.
- A large number of men who were of fighting age. Guess that makes them terrorists.
- Many women and children present. Many killed by the USA.

The US army is losing the argument on this one, as reported by the BBC. However nobody can be sure exactly what was going on. I too suspect it could have been dodgy, but it should have been dealt with better. All that has been achieved is more anger in the arab world. The Americans made a hash of it as usual.

Hours of bombing on a single f**king house. I think 40 bombs were dropped. One for each person in attendance. Have the Americans never heard of a term known as "collateral damage".

Surely a softer approach would have been appropriate, such as surrounding the building with a large force and laying seige to it. This would have been the better option. But of course the psycho Americans destroy it with spectre gunships and fighter jets and then follow up on the ground. A wounded animal is much more dangerous than an unwounded one.

Westcoast - your desperately trying to defend your countries tactics, that is perfectly understandable. However this is getting harder and harder for you to do because your military tacticians are too inexperienced in this type of situation (battle for hearts and minds).

The best option would be to give the British commanders control. They would be much more able to control the vast resources and technology which the Americans have. There would certainly be a lot less bloodshed.

[BEagle]

For f*ck's sake! I hope that this doesn't turn out to have been a serious blunder?

The next thing you'll be telling me is that the CIA don't know the difference between satellite communication equipment and an innocent Al Jazeera antenna.........

Maybe I'll have a look at Redneck News (Fox) to see what unbiased report they have on this......

[West Coast]

Beagle
You make it look easy talking out both sides of your mouth.

You said before you had the facts...
______________________________________________
"it looks just like the old, pre-cab tractors of my youth still used in that part of the world. Look carefully and you can see the steering wheel, mirror and the hot rear transmission casing. No AAA system I've ever seen looked like that, nor would it be stuck out in the open in that way with a hot barrel after being used."

"Sorry, but convince me it's anything more than gung-ho bullies murdering some farm workers. I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise......."
____________________________________________________

Now you say after the unedited version proves you wrong after
all your work to condemn US forces you retreat to this...
_________________________________________________
"The 'farmers' may well have been a legitimate target. It was the murder of the wounded man which I found unacceptable."
_________________________________________________

You found the targeting of the "farmers" unacceptable and condemned it as actions by thugs. Without so much as an accurate fact basing all you knew off a heavily edited (for dubious purposes) video you condemned the attack. Wouldn't a wise man have waited for the facts to come out, or at least seek all available info (unedited version) before finding fault? You condemned the US for the attack, you were wrong we now know. You supported the "farmers" as doing legit work. Wrong again as time and facts have shown.

As to the wedding, you look like a ping pong ball. Bouncing back and forth to one side of the issue to the other. Did you learn a lesson from earlier mistakes and decide to play both sides of the coin?

Look to Fox news all you want. Fox is not my first choice, nor second choice of news. It however hasn't had to appoint a truth czar from the outside to monitor its reporting for bias and accuracy such as the biased broadcasting corporation has had to do. I guess that makes it at least as credible as the BBC as a news source.


As to the wedding, time and not the media will tell. Just as in the "farmer" case we are now seeing limited video clips designed for maximum effect. You may choose to make your case on these, just remember what happened last time you did.

[BEagle]

"I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise"

That's what I wrote.

As for Fox, do you understand satirical comment? Probably not - you might consider it un-American.

[West Coast]

You may have been

However you condemned the actions minus the facts. You unequivocally determined what transpired, came to judgment and were later proven wrong. In hind sight it looks even worse for you. Your burden of proof was a doctored video tape and nothing else.


"I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise"

Whether it was happily or otherwise is irrelevant. Your rush to find fault (incorrectly) is the crux of the argument.

[BEagle]

Believe what you will.

The rest of the world will as well.

Such actions as have been exposed in Iraq over the last few days will hardly endear your 'American way' to many.

Have a nice day........

[West Coast]

And he beats a hasty retreat.....

Thanks I will.

[BEagle]

Yes - I had far better things to do.

Anyway, other people will be getting bored with all this....

Forty funerals and a wedding. We'll leave it to history to decide whether it was just.

[West Coast]

Not too important or you wouldn't be back so soon.

Leave it to history to decide huh? That's a change considering you were ready to do it unilaterally just a number of posts ago.

[Bullet Tooth Tony]

West Coast

I fear that you and yours are missing the point somewhat.

We are now fighting against a terrorist force in Iraq. "No 5hit" you may say. But what this means is that as democratic, fair and humane societies we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way.

Terrorists don't play fairly! Get used to "innocent children" and "civilians" being used as they may have been in this latest wedding party situation. This is the way that the terrorist operates. I'm no expert, but it took us 30 painful years to learn that you can't beat these people with conventional military might. (Just look at Israel). It must not take you guys 30 years to learn the same lesson.

Hearts and minds along with an extensive inteligence (especially HumInt) network is the ONLY way to do this.

I don't wish to join in the American bashing that we have seen previously on this thread and so please see this post for what it is. It IS a critisism of American methods, but it is also a critisism of the way that our government has failed to pass on the lessons that we have learnt the hard way.

[West Coast]

BTT

An excellent post I thought and I agree with most of it.


"we must be seen to be fighting it in a fair, democratic and humane way"

In an idealistic form, your correct. To do as you say infers many battles. One in the military sense, another in gaining the trust of the Iraqi's. However the most important battle for purposes of perception is in the media. You can win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi's and still lose the war in the media, ala tet offensive. Notice that few of the accomplishments that would showcase the ideals you raise are reported?
How many Zogby polls from Iraq that show a general optimism for the future of Iraq receive the air time that they should? Its not news if an Iraqi is optimistic about his future. If it bleeds it leads, If it talks it walks. I remember those words from a class I attended in the military on how the press decides stories.

[BEagle]

Daily Telegraph 22 May 04:

Eight more Iraqi prisoner deaths investigated

The US military is investigating the deaths of eight further prisoners - including a general of Saddam Hussein - as homicides.

To classify the deaths as homicides, the authorities must think they involved suspected assaults on detainees before or during interrogation sessions that may have led to the detainees' deaths.

The US army has investigated the deaths of 32 Iraqi prisoners and another five deaths of prisoners in Afghanistan since August 2002. In total, 10 of them have been categorised as homicides.
Autopsies of prisoners have been released by the Pentagon. Causes of death include strangulation, blunt forces injuries and asphyxia, and multiple gunshot wounds. Others died from natural causes.

Earlier in the month, the Pentagon said that two prisoners had been murdered, one by an US army soldier, who shot a prisoner who was throwing stones at him. Despite being thrown out of the army, he escaped jail.

The Pentagon's decision to investigate the further deaths in custody comes in the wake of the Washington Posts's publication of more pictures that appear to show Iraqi detainees being abused within prison.

The graphic pictures have added to gathering unease about treatment of Iraqi prisoners, in particular those held in the now notorious Abu Ghraib jail.

Earlier in the month at least 20 examples of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib and other prisons was leaked.

The report, by Maj Gen Antonio Taguba, included serious findings that breached international law standards.

[6Z3]

Did the article say anything about the Apache story?

[BEagle]

Which particular Apache story - there seem to be one or two to choose from:


US helicopter attack kills 40 'at Iraqi wedding party'

At least 40 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday in a remote village near the Syrian border after an American helicopter fired on a wedding party, according to Iraqi officials and media reports.
Al Arabiya television said that the attack was launched after guests engaged in the tradition of firing guns in the air in celebration.


Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, a US military spokesman, said around 40 people had been killed in an attack near the Syrian border, but insisted that they were suspected foreign fighters.
He disputed reports that the victims were members of a wedding party and said the attack was within the military's rules of engagement.

If the wedding party reports are confirmed, the incident could not have come at a worse time for the US-led coalition as it strives to prevent a collapse in the security situation before the June 30 handover of sovereignty to an interim Iraqi government.

Lt Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, the deputy police chief in Ramadi, capital of al-Anbar province which includes the village of Makr-al Deeb, said between 42 and 45 people, including 15 children and 10 women, died in an air strike at about 2.45 am.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck piled with bodies of those allegedly killed.

The footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves in Makr-al Deeb, near the town of al Qaim. The al Qaim area is a hotbed of insurgency where five US Marines were killed last month.

Dr Salah al-Ani, speaking from a hospital in Ramadi, said wedding guests fired AK47s in celebration. US troops who came to investigate subsequently left but helicopters then swooped, killing dozens and destroying two houses.

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by an American air strike in the Uruzgan province. A US military report said the action was justified because its aircraft had come under attack.

[West Coast]

Someone is about to take a fall off a high horse....

Like I said earlier, everything we learned we learned from the Brits.

http://www.iht.com/articles/519344.html (Brits shoot up wedding party)

You do funerals also...

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text5-11-2004-54006.asp (Brits shoot up funeral)


http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=8221&TagID=7 ( Brits torture civilians, later found to be the wrong people)

A touch of history to put current events in perspective

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/2836413.stm (Brits killing civvies in NI)

This is an example of why I say we learned it all from you. The US and other countries I should say.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jul2000/sier-j22.shtml (Brit organized/backed gov kills civilians)

As to prision abuse, looking like your lads are just as guilty as ours. We have owned up to it. Yours is still trying to do an end run around responsibility by claiming fakes.

Read on Beagle

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119270,00.html (Brits involved in prison abuse in Iraq)

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/special_packages/iraq/8626118.htm?1c (Brits accused of killing prisoner)

Former prisoners to sue the British gov in the Hague, shall I post a link to that also?

All the things the US is either guilty or have alledged to have done have also been committed by the British. Imagine that Beagle, your no better then us despite your inferences of such.

[BEagle]

I didn't need to search Irish Republican sites for 'Brits shoot up funeral' as you have - instead I just looked under 'My Lai' to remind myself about The American Way of waging war:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html

And that was 1970. Way before the Noraid-sponsored propaganda which you've posted.

[spud]

West Coast, right or wrong isn't dependent on which flag you wave. It's dependent on what's right or wrong.

[West Coast]

At least try to be accurate, My Lai took place in 1968, March 16th to be exact. The trial took place in 1970.

All I needed to do was a google search for the British way of waging war. That's were I found reports of the killing of innocents including children at the hands of Brit troops.

Funny thing beagle, I am not claiming the US to be as pure as the driven snow. I simply am reminding YOU that YOUR government is guilty of the same things you pounce on the US for. You post ad nauseam about the US actions in Iraq. I thought you might want to see what your tommy's have been up to since you seem to focus in entirely on the US.

You want to talk about the way the US wages war huh? Review a few stories about the British way of waging war in Iraq and find its remarkably like the US. Like I said, we learned it all from your lot. And we gave you the quiet part to manage also, and still we hear about the same things there as happen in the hot spots of Iraq.

The Brits shooting up the wedding and the funeral were in Iraq, had nothing to do with the IRA. Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it? Shooting up public gatherings seems to be the exclusive charter of US troops if one was to listen to you, has the biased broadcasting corporation somehow failed you and this is the first you have heard of it? My guess is your anti American bias allows you to look past your atrocities and find out the American body count for the day.


Spud
I agree with you, I am simply knocking Beagle off his high horse.
It hasn't been hard.

[BEagle]

" Like I said, we learned it all from your lot."

Really? Susbtantiate that claim, if you can.

Thank heavens that the likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice and Dimwit Dubya weren't around to inflict their ideas on the world in 1962. Had they been, we wouldn't have been here now....

[Ed Winchester]

Wow, what a truly fantastic willy-waving contest this is. :rolleyes:

West Coast - All that work to prove a point and you cocked up every link. Don't worry about going back to sort it out though, I think we all get the idea!

Apache video - good job.

Wedding vs Terrorist gathering - Who knows, not I

Prisoner abuse - completely unacceptable. The fact that it has been done before doesn't make it any more acceptable now.

[West Coast]

Man!!
I need to take a computer class I reckon. Guess that shows Beagle didn't even take time to open them or he would have been on my ass about it. Now I understand his error about the IRA and the funeral, he assumed and didn't read.

When you got a willy this big, you can't help but wave it from time to time.

Beagle

Is that the best you can do? Late hour and/or a pint interfering with your retort?

Now are you sure you meant 1962? You have been a little off on your research as of late.

That's President Bush to you. Who knows what would have happened, well except you of course. I applaud your ability (imagination actually) to draw firm conclusions about an event with then notional characters.

[Tandemrotor]

West Coast

Aren't you even slightly concerned, that even your so-called ALLIES have such a disparraging view of your country's 'foreign policy?'

I can't make your links work at all, but I did have to laugh if you are suggesting any links between Irish Republican 'terrorism' (That's right, the kind your countrymen sponsored through Noraid!) and the continuing slaughter in Iraq!

It must be so comforting to view the rest of the World in the same way your countrymen viewed their charges in Abu Ghraib, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay, etc. etc.

I ask you again, aren't you even slightly concerned about the pictures being broadcast by American news networks, along with the BBC, and the rest of the World's media?

[West Coast]

Don't confuse this thread as anything but what it is, political banter. There are a few here that think that the UK isn't guilty of the same abuses in Iraq as the US. My mission is to fill the gap in their knowledge as to what the UK is doing down in the south.
I see the UK as having blood on the hands just the same as the US, do you disagree?


Absolutely I am concerned about the prison abuse going on. Those responsible need to be punished. I read today that it so far as has been linked as high as a 3 star general. (Sanchez)

The images you and I see on the news have to be balanced. One would have to wear blinders to think reporters don't have an agenda to pursue vis a vis politics. An example is the tape that was the genesis of this thread. It was shown in an edited format to sway opinion. Many willingly bought off on it and roundly damned the US for killing simple farmers. The truth showed something completely different. As to the wedding, I don't know. I try to balance reports of heavy weapons, sniper rifles and other war paraphernalia against the emotive pictures of bodies being laid to rest. I won't make my judgment based on what the media has to say.

As to "so called allies" (your words) I have long suspected a realigning of camps would occur post cold war. That may be happening now.
As far as our traditionally closest political ally, the UK they are shoulder to shoulder with us on the Iraq war. If you speak of the electorate, then you may be correct.

Apoligies about the threads not working. The historical perspective I inferred was about Brit soldiers killing civilians in NI.

[BEagle]

I'm not sure why the links didn't work - I opened them OK. Which is why I commented upon the Noraid propaganda 'Irish Prisoners of War - NORAID Online' which is the third item in the second link - the one which shows a search under 'brits shoot up funeral'.

We agree that prisoner abuse is a scandal, and whether it's conducted by the UK, US or Martian forces, it's equally despicable and those guilty must be punished.

I conceded that the Apache video may have been 'selective' in nature and quite probaly was an attack on a legitimate target - all except the murder of the last man, clearly injured by the truck fire and then butchered by the Apache.

I gave the US the benefit of the doubt over the 'safe house/wedding party' item - and later said "I hope that this doesn't turn out to have been a serious blunder?" when further inormation appeared in the presss, implying that I hope that my original view was correct.

I have no faith in any of the current US administration, neither do I in Bliar et al.

I'm equally as glad that Dubya wasn't running things in the US at the time of the Cuban missile crisis as I am that Trust-me-Tone wasn't around to suck US bottom during the Viet Nam war.

However, at least the US is still prepared to invest in its military forces - I'll certainly give you that, West C.

And yes - it was rather late. But I'm still intrigued to know how the US 'learned' its techniques from the UK..........

[whowhenwhy]

While we're discussing US foreign Policy, has anyone else noticed the similarities between US foreign policy now and in the 1800s onwards? Then, it was all about seeing another (Pacific / S American )country who didn't match up to their ideals of religion, democracy and free-speach so they invaded and set it straight. Now it's all about.... Oh right, the exact same stuff. Now you guys across the pond, don't fly off on one about the British Empire, I'm just trying to draw parallels. Everyone I think is agreed that we should have gone there to solve the problem. The problems are that:
a. No matter how we dress it up we went there illegally and our politicians lied to us about why we were going.
b. The western world no longer has a concious memory of war. The media is exacerbating that now as they have invaded everywhere and everything and portray everything as a crime against humanity. War is a crime against humanity, it is a terrible thing. By saying this I am not justifying what ALLIED troops have done in any of the prisons around Iraq, but what may or may not have happened in house searches was done by scared young boys with loaded weapons. Accidents will happen!
c. Everyone knows that many US troops tend to go "rock n roll" without actually needing to and that some of your troops are not equipped with the experience to do the job that they are doing at the moment. This leads to people tending to expect the worst of some members of the US military. I'm afraid West Coast etc, that your are going to have to put up with that.

What we need to do now, as ALLIES, is try to work out how the hell we can get out of there without losing anymore of our boys and girls.

Calm down guys, us shouting at each other aint going to get us anywhere!!:ok: :ok: