Savannah Aviation

[The Hairy Log Book]

Does anyone have any information on "Savannah Aviation" at burketown e.g. what are they like to work for (conditions etc), the name of the chief pilot, how many people they employ, aircraft types?

Just trying to get a heads up before I send them a resume.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hairy.

[outback satellite]

Gday,

sorry dont know any info other than they have no jobs going.

cheers

[handrail]

Outback Sattelite
Yeah good post :\ Obviously if you know thay havn't go any jobs going then you must know something about the company:confused: All he asked for was a bit of info!

Hairy
Sorry mate don't know much about the company but passed through burketown not long ago and they had two Navajo's/Chieftan's (Sorry didnt take notice of which it was) and a Baron. I think there may have also been a Bonanza there too. All aircraft looked in pretty good nick (for piston twins and the area of opperation). Thats about all i know but best of luck with them or anyone else. :ok:

Cheers

Rail

[seat1A]

hand rail.......................get over it!!

Oh.......learn to either spell or proof read your post!!

[handrail]

Seat
First of all i was just trying to help the guy out and second i dont know about you but ive got a lot better things to do with my time than proof read my posts on a chat forum. You obviously managed to work it out.

[Dj Dave]

Savannah...

Yeah they seem like a good bunch. spoke to Paul about getting work last year, very nice bloke and down to earth. Not sure what the pay or operations are like in great detail.

They have also a base in Borroloola (NT) but the main ops are in Burketown (and to a lesser extent Mt Isa where they maintain their fleet).

Otherwise seeing and talking to the guys that work there they have a fairly quick progression, onto twins probably because you have to live in the sticks forever. but hey if you like dat chieftain bloke, then go for it.

Dj Dave

[Oz_Superman]

Post moderated........ :{

User strongly advised any intending pilot applicant reasearch employment terms and conditions prior to accepting employment.

Woomera

[DUXNUTZ]

G'day.

I can concur with the above post being factual and not in any way an exaggeration..............

If you are looking to send in a resume Hairy, it might be handy if you outline your other skills in addition to flying. Any skills are certain to come in handy when you find yourself building/painting/cooking guests breakfast that is when your on your "day off".

Working and living in "savannah-world" as it becomes known makes the tv show survivor look lame in comparison........

One to stick clear of! :yuk:

[Poita]

I hate hearing these kinds of stories. I hope the person(s) involved get their fair dose of karma back for all these evil wrong doings if it is true. GA doesnt need that sort of sillyness.

Pilots are people, not scum of the Earth...:suspect:

[Oz_Superman]

Hello Hairy and people!

I know a lot of guys who use to fly there and all have left in dismay at the way they were treated and how the outfit was run.
at this place you will:

1. be payed around $300 a week. try living on that in Burketown, normanton or worse Borooloola.
2. Pay for your own ENDORSMENTS.
3. PAY for your own IFR RENEWALS every year despite flying IFR.
4. Get NO PAID HOLIDAYS despite signing a full time declaration when starting (mmmm i wonder if this is illegal?)
5. Get NO support on any issue that you would expect as a line pilot, from the appropriate people.
6. Learn many other skills such as car washing, lawn mowning, fence pitiching etc (you can guess whos things these are)

The aircraft aren't flash from what I have heard and seen in pics.

If you hairy or anyone dont believe me (which is your right) then ring around and do a lot of research on the company! the chief pilot! and conditions. and you many be surprised and shocked.

Talk to many people as possible. Ex pilots are a great resource of info. I believe many have left to the opposition in ISA so this would be a good place to start. If there arnt any of there ex-pilots there anymore I am sure they (the current guys) could let you know where they have moved onto.
Also chat to the local engineers in ISA and Nth Qld and you may be surprised also.

Time for people to be aware of companies they aspire to work for.

We in GA have to stick together.

fly safe.
Oz_Superman
(Fighting for Truth, Justice in a NON-GA Way!!!)

[ShakaPilot]

Yeah I agree Poita!
I hate hearing these things too but can also tell you they are true.
I worked up noth in Borroloola for years with another comany and use to watch what these poor guys who were based in the loo go though.
GA is tuff but this was shocking. I use to watch one of there guys have to walk the 3km from the company house to the airport every day (yes even in the wet season). Had to himself end up finding a bike to pedal to the airport after a few weeks.
One time it was flooded in the loo and cut the roads (quite literally) Solution, from the boss. he was told and had to! sleep in the office at the a-port for a week. Yes true story.

[cunningham]

I called this company a few years back for a job and spoke to the C.P When I asked about the pay he told me he didn't handle that part and wasn't sure. I questioned whether it was close to 38k and his reply was " yeah, something like that"
Found out later from a guy who used to work there it was $23,000 !!!

[ForwardLocaliser]

cunningham said :
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" yeah, something like that"
Found out later from a guy who used to work there it was $23,000 !!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats if your lucky. Minus the $1000 for endoresements, the same for renewal and base check.....plus anything else they think is justified.......
He knows exactly what he pays!

Yes, I can also concur about this mob.
I almost worked there but thankfully went to the opposition.
Got to know many of the guys there very well and all said the same things. NOT good conditions at all!
When I was up there I personally saw them have two gear up landings as well as a total right off of a baron when a inexperienced pilot ran off a runway just north of the ISA.
Best decision I every made and would advise people to do the same.

[RedBeacon]

come On Grrowler!

I agree Ga is tuff and just because most people (which is really not correct, more like some people) move on to good things, doesnt mean it should be fine for these sort of companies to get away with there illeagal practices.
That only harms us all if we accept it and say, "well thats ok".

I also know people who have worked there and I think it is crap that they get away with this sort of stuff! (illegal pays, conditions, maitenance, flying attiudes and policies!)
It will come back to bite them and by the sound of it, it is slowly coming to the surface.
Good to hear and from the info I had back I would encourage as many people as possible to find out info on the CP.! Would be surprised what you woud hear back. I like many, want a job to get the old multi up but after hearing the stories from ex-guys from there think there is more to life/flying than this place!.

As you say, Make your own decision!!!!

[speedjet]

cunningham

"Found out later from a guy who used to work there it was $23,000"

Lead to believe that this amount is an after tax wage plus deductions made for rent and electricity provided.

Based on my calculations this comes to about $36000pa Gross.

Not bad for GA

[grrowler]

RedBeacon, yeah you're right, rereading my post without the beer goggles on does make it look a little ugly. I think I'll get rid of it... The original purpose was to post the information I had heard, whether positive or negative, so ppl can make their own decisions.

What I meant to say was the person I know never had a bad word to say about them, and is now off doing bigger and better things.

However, I have heard from other sources that the conditions are abysmal and illegal.

[DUXNUTZ]

SPEEDJET,


"Lead to believe that this amount is an after tax wage plus deductions made for rent and electricity provided"


YES!!! But i think you will find that you do not get a payslip that outlines the above mentioned deduction (or one at all) and furthermore would you really want to actually fork out the money from your miniscule wage for the accomodation they give you!!!!

Its just an excuse to pay you 4/5ths of Cr@p all.

[404 Titan]

DUXNUTZ
YES!!! But i think you will find that you do not get a payslip that outlines the above mentioned deduction (or one at all)
A detailed pay slip outlining all deductions is a legal requirement in Australia. If what you have said is true, I would report them to the Australian Taxation Office as there is a very hefty fine and they don’t treat offenders lightly especially if they are dodging paying workers income tax to the ATO by doing this.

[Open Wemac]

Not taking any sides in this petty session.

But a few years ago, if you were a low time driver and wanted to get 900+ Multi a year, this was the place to go.

Beats sitting around in a capital city with a thumb up you ar#% waiting for a dream job to appear.

I believe the conditions were not the greatest, but you had a good group of guys/gals to work and socialise with.

A lot of people who have worked there have all progressed onto bigger things (regardless of whether or not you bingled an a/c).



So how many seconds does it take for the B-58's gear to retract P.P.? :D

[Oz_Superman]

Weather Or not someone moves onto bigger better thinigs Is not really the point here.
Many many people (infact most I believe If they have complete persistance and dedication to there ultimate goal) move onto bigger things, weather it be regionals, majors, frieght operators etc. That I think, is more to the credit of the individual not with any credit to these companies......

The issues of this thread, are from numerous people (including myself ) pointing out that these sort of companies should not get away with the constant explotation of young, motivated, hour chasing guys like we all are.

Weather or not you get some hours is one thing, but how you live, get payed, what type of mainted machine you fly and the attitude and treatment by the owners and CP, IS a major point.

Many of us, again and again, run into these companies not knowing the full extent of these issues and should be warned!

Again dont believe me, just do your homework, Ring around the places already suggested on this thread and ask away!!!!!

we in GA must stick together!!!!
fly safe.
Oz_Superman
(Fighting for Truth, Justice in a NON-GA Way!!!)

[cunningham]

No Speedjet, it was 23K Gross. Who would discuss a package in net terms anyway?

p.s It is illegal to make deductions from an employees paypacket without prior written consent. Hence the employer must provide a payslip for the employee to determine if any of his pay has been deducted for whatever reason. If any of you folk out there are not receiving a payslip contact the ATO immediately.

[Woomera]

I seem to recall this same discussion over thirty years ago! The only thing that's changed is the aspiring pilots.

Still the same aircraft - only thirty years ago they were near new C206's, C402's and B55 Barons, now with many thousand hours on old tired air frames...........

Aviation is terribly predictable - the more things change, the more they remain the same! :p

Woomera

[Mainframe]

OZ Superman

Savannah has launched numerous careers, just as McDonalds, KMart , coles etc. None of these companies are lily white nor pay normal wages, provide company cars etc.

I have never been employed by Savannah, but have had the professional aquaintenance of many of their pilots, some of whom were qualified solicitors in their previous life.

I'm quite sure that these legal eagles would have taken action against Savannah if a supportable case existed.

Savannah has also helped numerous pilots get started in their careers, a virtual impossibility in their home state of Victoria, a non GA state of Australia.

Yes, life is tough, indeed character building, outside of the non GA oriented metropolis's of Australia.

Do you honestly believe that you are employable as a multi-engine instrument rated pilot straight out of the sausage factories?

Not really! please take a reality check and realise this company launches careers, and doesn't support paid ICUS as is so common in Vic.

[cunningham]

If companies can't afford to pay the award they should close shop. Before I joined GA I was an accountant for a large firm in Sydney and Melbourne so I must admit I do have a fair idea what makes a successful operator and what doesn't. What is clearly obvious to me is that 80% of the companies I have worked for would not survive in the real world. The only way they survive is in an artificial enviroment like GA where they don't pay the correct wage. Many GA companies are run so incompetently they survive by stealing employees wages and conditions.

The argument about companies starting many careers so it's ok to pay crap in my opinion is very tired and a load of b.s. It's a lot like Nike saying it is ok to pay foreign workers 60 cents an hour to make shoes and then beat their chests claiming " If it wasn't for us these people would starve"

Mainframe, in reply to your comments about Kmart, Coles-Myers etc your comments are quite incorrect.
All of these companies pay the award, superannuation, penalty rates, sick leave and pay for staff training. Think about it for a minute, the 15 year old kid nightfilling has better CoS then most guys flying aircraft in GA

I do agree with one point. And that is that some pilots may not be up to the task of operating an IFR charter straight from an IR course. However many accountants who joined the the firm I worked for staight from Uni were quite wet behind the ears also. These folk were simply given further training and taken under someones wing.

High wages and heaps of perks is certainly not sustainable in GA, however I don't believe it is too much to ask to pay the award. That is super, holiday pay and sick leave.

Aviation is a very sick industry in many aspects and I don't believe it will ever change. While there is people out there who are more than happy to work for extremely sub standard conditions it will remain as it is today. Third world standard.

If another 737 operator started up tomorrow paying 40k they would have people crawling over each other to get a gig, simply because it is a big improvement for many working in GA.

[PammyAnderson]

HERE HERE! Cunningham
What a load of rot it is to say a company should be able to pay crap just because you are out of ab intio training. (or low time)

Mainframe, you said
"I'm quite sure that these legal eagles would have taken action against Savannah if a supportable case existed"!

Probably not. Most GA companies AT THE MOMENT are not under any award. However this is VERY SLOWLY CHANGING. As is the case in the N.T.
McDonalds,, Kmart etc as you have given examples "MAINFRAME",
have work rules protection. Even someone pushing trollies at wollies has a base rate, overtime etc. "GA".
It will take a long while but companies such as this, will one day have to answer to some regulation.
As for the other things like dodgy time/flying/maitanaince/choirs for owners etc. Well WE ALL know that they only do this cos of the desperation of aspiring pilots who slog it out for years to get a cpl and just want to fly for a career. Again though, lets pretend thats it is right that they can do it. That part at least is good to see is being aired here. People should know about these things and these companies.

Just cause you are newly quaified doesnt mean you shouldnt get basic rights etc.

I dont personally know you mainframe, nor savannah no OZ, however like you I DO personally know many of there ex pilots. They are just as good of a pilot and people as I have met from other places however even they have told me many mixed stories. (i.e no hoilday pay, the Loo conditions and the IFR renewals which YOU pay)
No one here is questionsing the skills of the pilots just the organisation.
As "Woomera" said, it has been going on for many many years but we all know that it doesnt make it right for them to get away with it.

I give OZ Superman credit. He (and lets not be blind, quite a few others on this thread too) have given examples of the rubbish conditions and treatment from this company. As he/she said, weather someone accepts this is up too them but I also think It is good for people to here what they may/may not get themselves into. As Oz said, I guess research is the key and I concur after some things I have heard that ringing around may a very good idea.

[Next Generation]

Let's face it, GA is about getting hours, not lifestyle.

Those who put up with the crap will gain the hours necessary to move on to the next step. Those who want security and good wages from day 1 should try another career, as aviation is obviously not for them.

[puff]

Next Generation.....that attitude is exactly why nothing will change......most guys do ''plan'' on using GA for building hours, but sadly not everyone does make it to the well paid great job. Do you honestly believe that anyone wants to work at Kmart being a check out operator for 25 years....sometimes its all they can get, and at least even in that job you get all the benefits that higher paid jobs get...despite the lower pay rates.

GA should be able to provide pilots with at least wages and conditions compareable to say retail, where the workers there have no skill or training needed....IF GA operators cannot afford to pay this much(or little), you have to question if it's worth being in business.

It would be fine if we all knew for sure that if we do 2 hours in GA on crap money we'll all eventually get a job on 150K workin 50 hours a month....but it doesn't work like that, not everyone makes it...doesn't mean to say they should have to live in the poor house for the ''priviledge'' of flying.

[Next Generation]

Well seeing as all you business management experts have all the answers, why don't you start your own GA companies, and take all the risks of employing new pilots, whilst you are easily affording to pay them well, and then after you have spent money training them, watch them piss off at the first opportunity they get. Show us all how it should be done.

None of you have the guts to undertake a risk of these proportions, yet you all seem to know what the operators should be doing.

Bloody pack of whingers. Enjoy GA, 'cos that's where you're gonna be for a friggin' long time.

Wake up!

[RedBeacon]

Arrrrr what a mature highly thought response from
"Next Generation".
I would suggest you are indeed very much OLD generation with your attitudes.

Infact every rational person here who has gone through GA, knows that with the attitude you have, it would suggest that quite possibly you yourself are either a "washed out never has been" (never got where you wanted so every one should suffer hey?) or infact maybe u are the proprietor of one of these shonky companies youself and are trying to remotely disguise and justify the reasons for your shonky work practices, mmmmmmm we all wonder?......Arrrr the joy of ananimity hey NG.

For the more civil minded people out there. I dont think any of us expect to get $100 000 for a GA job but what about standard basic conditions. The average aussie wage is now around $949 a week. Plus super, plus holiday pay. You work that out and its not that much. This company and most other GA mobs pay a lot less without the legal benefits. Even half that might be nice, but $300?
for full time single pilot IFR.

I think NG you will find many people have undertaken the so called risks that you speak of and come out ok, and then still think this sort of thing is wong. But again I think we all know where you are coming from. DEFENDER OF THE GA CONDITIONS!...Oh what a hero you are.!!!!!!

Once again. I encourage people to speak up about these companies, there experiences and tell of what really goes on.
This perception of, ....the shonky companies and there shonky ways should be kept under ground as its the only way to get your hours up." is the belief of only one party..........and thats the shonky companies themselves...!! (oh and NG too....LEEEOOOOSSSSSEEEERRRR!!!!!!_

[PPRuNe Towers]

You done broke the code and summed up PPRuNe Prime Policy RedBeacon - nice one:ok: :ok:

Once again. I encourage people to speak up about these companies, there experiences and tell of what really goes on.
This perception of, ....the shonky companies and there shonky ways should be kept under ground as its the only way to get your hours up." is the belief of only one party..........and thats the shonky companies themselves...!!

Not sure how to phrase it? We'll adjust as nesc to get the maximum attention and the minimum of legal threats. That's our job and we're damned good at it.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[leveler77]

Well guys, I have watched, with mild amusement for some time this thread and I do wonder to myself,,,,, where the original poster of this thread has gone,

It would seem that every time someone actually asks a descent question or genuinely seeks advice, its an excuse for people to come out of the wood work and have a good old bitch, and yes if you have to scroll back a page because you don’t even remember what his/her username is then I've proved my point,

To be honest, if it were me I'd probably think you were all a pack of F**ken wingers and wish I had never asked the question in the first place.

hairy log book if you are genuinely interested in working for this company and your not just someone who has created a thread and several usernames to vent your dissatisfaction then call PP and make your own decisions, sorry to be blunt but in this industry you cant be to careful who you take advice from.

In my experience in GA and Airlines there are always bitter people in this industry and 90% of the bitter ones are still in GA winging about their pay.


Red beacon, you said, “This company and most other GA mobs pay a lot less”
2 things

1. If most other “GA Mobs” pay less then most of the bosses out there must be pricks right? Or could it be that it is a tough industry to survive in. Would you care to tell me what percentage of aviation business that do pay the “award” have financial backing from a parent company outside of aviation? It’s a great tax deduction you know.

2. Have you ever owned or operated anything above and beyond an orange juice stand???

And finally OZ Superman, enjoy your life in GA mate, the ignorant don’t listen and the wise already know.

[PPRuNe Towers]

You're working on this basis:

''Or could it be that it is a tough industry to survive in.''

We ask why should they survive without change. Looking at the state of some aircraft, operations and conditions we think that is an assumption too far. Since day one our reason for existing is to let pilots know about the shonks, worldwide, whatever the scale.

That's it, it is why we are here. You are welcome to start your own site for those who'd rather willy wave owning, crosshiring or leasing a shagged 30 year old relic.

Rob Lloyd

[DUXNUTZ]

Leveler 77,

You are a tool in my humble opinion. One should not have to prostitute themselves in GA to get ahead and well you certainly sound like someone whom would get along great with PP.
Maybe the only amusing thing would be sitting down at the burketown pub listening to Mr PP carry on with you chirping in agreement in the background.

Mr Hairy Logbook has had his q answered quite thoroughly in this thread and would now know what to expect while working with this company.

As they say information is power and hopefully we have given some of that out to the masses.

cheers and safe flying

[cunningham]

For those who like to label many of the posters whingers, I offer you this suggestion.

Print off your reply and file it away for safe keeping.

Then one day when your daughter/son/wife/husband/grandson is in a similar position within the same or different industry you may offer your post as comfort to show how much you really care.

If your wife was say a secretary and the award was 32k,would you tolerate her getting paid 18k? Or would you too call her a F*$ken whinger.


I hope not.

[Bula]

Abosolute bitch fest but many comments have merit.

I wonder if we can say that those willing to go out there, take that dead end job then move onto a job with descent pay have earnt the right to be here.

It is true what cunningham says about wife/son etc...... But i guess you could call this a way of keeping those who truly do not want to be here away from the rest of the industry. Nothing hurts me more then seeing people who dont want to be there getting jobs while others who are working their ass off for work and want to fly can't find anything.

But for those out there whinging.. dont be fooled... there are plenty of GA jobds out there that do pay the award. Its the hook that lands the pilot or how willing the pilot is to take the bate which does keep the prices down or forces operators to increse pay, charge more for charters and price the industry out of business.

well thats my two cents

[stickwithit]

Oz Superman...

Having worked at Sav for a fair amount of time, I'd like to comment on a couple of your points.. Whilst some are pretty close to the mark, some weren't:

1. How many smaller GA companies that you know of pay for a Chieftain or Baron endorsement? Yet everyone seems happy to pay for it and fly for Virgin????
2. I never payed for a renewal when I was there.
3. "Get NO support..." Too many people just like to sit and whinge about things looking tough to other pilots, but never mention anything to the boss. Either withdraw your services (I have on a few occasions) or offer an alternative.
4. "The aircraft aren't flash from what I have heard and seen in pics." You saw them on the internet or something??? The best machines I've flown in GA, some paintjobs leave a lot to be desired.. but good machines mostly...
5. By all means ask the maintenance guys in ISA... but if you read ATSB reports and ask around some of their practices were the reasons both these wheels up landings occured.... An engineer had to be flown in from Perth to show these monkeys how to do the job.

By all means give people a heads up on what is happening in certain places, but don't get facts mixed up with quoting crap to make yourself sound good. Some of your stuff was true, but get it right before you shoot from the hip... Cheers :D

[grrowler]

leveler77,

1. Yes most GA bosses (I've worked for or know) are pricks. But that's not really the point. Most of them are taking advantage of the pilot surplus, and making savings where there shouldn't be savings to be made. Whether this is to line their own pockets or enable them to pay for maintenance, to survive in this tough industry doesn't really matter. People like yourself leveler77, are happy to tell pilots if they don't like it, then leave. Shouldn't the same go for the "struggling" operators. If they can't survive without taking these shortcuts then p!ss off!

2. No I haven't. However most GA bosses (again I'm speaking of the ones I know) haven't run any other business either, and that's the problem. In no other industry would these abysmal conditions be tolerated, and I would happy to wager that most of these so-called businesspeople would survive in the real world.

grrowler

[PublicService]

"stickwithit".....says!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...........An engineer had to be flown in from Perth to show these monkeys how to do the job."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure the engineers in MT ISA would have a much different story to yours and I am also sure that with these comments you have made, you have now encouraged them to give a VERY honest insight about this company if/when anyone now calls to find out info...............so well done!

Why? bring an engineer from perth when there are numerous
maitainance companies in the surrounding areas! (TVL, MA, CS, or even DW or BN)....MMMMmmmmm I wonder?


I can tell people a couple of things here:
You DO pay for renewals here! (ask ex and current pilots)
You dont get holiday pay even though you are fulltime.

If this company has nothing hide, they should encourage
people to talk to ex-pilots, surrounding companies and associated people.

Where there is smoke there is fire!

[Fantome]

Nineteen months on from the foregoing contributions . . . . the outfit featured, criticised and praised is going strong. . . .and advertised for pilots in THE OZ a couple of weeks ago. My interest is to know whether any recent employees of SA are able to post an update on how it is for them.

[DUXNUTZ]

Pretty quiet...... then again those toads are quite noisy in bkt.

As advised above, if your still interested (if they want you)enquire, try it out. Stay if you like, go if you don't.......