Is this discrimination?

[November Whiskey]

I’ve just been browsing PPJN.com and things definitely seem to be picking up which is obviously great news for all. However, I feel the need to discuss the subject of discrimination against modular students!

Let me say now that this is not about whether integrated is better than modular, nor is it about slating FTO’s and their marketing strategies etc. My gripe is that there are several airlines that clearly discriminate against pilots who have gained their licence via the modular route (myself included, obviously). We all understand that requirements for type ratings and thousands of hours etc. are valid ways of thinning down job applicants and gaining experienced pilots, but I cannot see why anyone of us should be excluded from job opportunities because they (for whatever reasons) chose modular rather than integrated.

If you put the theoretical concept of two people with exactly the same professional qualifications into other scenarios you could come up with racial discrimination or sexual discrimination. You may say these are far more serious, but if you’ve worked hard over a number of years, made sacrifices and not to mention spending in excess of 40k, I think that’s pretty serious too.

I would appreciate a healthy debate on this one. And please let me reiterate that I have no axe to grind against integrated courses or students…

Good luck to all!

NW

:ok:

[scroggs]

There are a few employers who still think that modular students = the old self-improvers, and integrated students = the old 509ers. In those days, there were fairly good reasons for an airline looking for low-houred pilots to prefer the 509 product (though there was plenty of debate about that at the time!), but there is absolutey no excuse fore it now.

NW Perhaps you could do us all a favour and name the airlines that you have found who are peddling this arrant nonsense - I have no problems writing to them to ask how they justify themselves!

Scroggs

[redsnail]

I vaguely remember speaking to BA City Express a while ago and they did ask if I was a CAP 509er.

[November Whiskey]

Scroggs,

Many thanks for that. In all honesty I was in two minds about typing this post as I did not want to seem bitter. I respect all pilots and wannabees alike, whichever way they trained. I just like an even playing field wherever possible, it's hard enough when you at the bottom of the heap! :{

Here are the offenders, details are from PPJN.com:

BMI Regional

F/O
Integrated course. Otherwise, 1500hours, MCC, significant multi time, etc.



GB Airways

F/O

Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.



Flybe

F/O
Low hours F/O's (requirement of 40 during 2004) are only taken from Oxford Aviation and at present are all going onto Q400 fleet.


Give 'em hell!

:ok:

[trainer too 2]

Nonsense, an airline can and should be able to hire who the like. Prior to giving you the keys to drive their toys they have a certain obligation that you are up to the job. Your piece of paper stating CPL is part of the selection but if they can add on more certainties they should!

They can say give me a piece of paper that states that you have passed a test. Or say I want you to have passed the test AND attended a certain school as we have good references from it.

If I am in the states I can get an MBA from Harvard or one by mail order for "work experience". They both have the same words: MBA on it but the second one means nothing.

The same reasoning would be for food: why should I pay GBP100 at chez Franz for food while McD who also sells food only want GBP3.95 for a Big Meal: also food!!

Please note I agree that maybe the person outside the integrated course might be better than a particular person from an integrated course but the airline is bettering the odds for themselves with what they consider proven concepts

[November Whiskey]

trainer too 2

Of course airlines should be able to stipulate their own requirements, what we're talking about here is discriminating between two identical licences which were gained by flying an identical syllabus, with an identical flight test format. Your two examples talk about comparing completely different things, or are you saying that a modular frozen ATPL can be purchased over the internet? If so can I get a refund from my training, and what's the URL?


NW;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Indeed - Modular students get more hours. A reference from a large Integrated FTO is likely to be made after a cursory glance at the old training notes by someone who never met the student.

Whilst at a small FTO they are more likely to be referenced by someone who actually flew with and remembers them. Also its far easier to hide being a prat on a course of 12 in a school of 120 than it is on a course of 2 in and school of 20...

The simple answer is laziness and history. Its easy to call up a large FTO who have people on the ends of phone waiting and historically thats whats been done.

Its wrong and people are starting to spot that. But it takes a while - bless.

Cheers

WWW

[AIRWAY]

Morning,

I definately couldnt afford an integrated course like many others, so my option was modular, and to tell you the truth im very happy, currently not owning a single pence to any bank and enjoying flying. And if i had to choose this route even if i had 70k i would do it with all again.

Now for NW's comment, i do agree with his view there is no reason why integrated should get better treatment than modular if they are both the same :rolleyes: burocracy still rules the world :*

[Leo45]

As a former instructor in one of these major FTOs, I can say that WWW is absolutely spot on.

Modular or Integrated should not be treated differently and the airlines should talk to the instructors rather than let a "panel" from the FTOs in question decide who should be shortlisted.

But,obviously, it won't happen as this industry is full of prejudice for reasons that defy logic..:rolleyes:

[no sponsor]

Scroggs,

I think it would be very helpful if you could write the letter. I would happy to review a draft, if required.

It's quite depressing to read these comments when I've been slogging away for the past five months on my day job and Bristol's notes.

I could afford the integrated route, but decided on the modular. I really hope this is not the case.

[hifive11]

First of all everything you read on PPJN is not necessarily totally accurate. I have proved this on a couple of occasions when contacting an airline direct and quoting something from PPJN. The reaction has been surprise (genuine or not I don’t know).

I know for certain that with regards to Flybe, they have recently employed from all different backgrounds, modular, integrated and the integrated not from Oxford.

The entries on PPJN are kindly made by pilots who give up their time to help but possibly are not always up to date with the latest recruitment parameters due to work etc.

Secondly, two of those airlines you have mentioned have sent their cadets to certain schools so know exactly what they are going to get. This is not necessarily right because I agree that at the end of the day we all end up with the same bit of paper. However, as I am sure every wannabe knows, there isn’t an HR department in any airline that isn’t snowed under with applications. If they see a student from an FTO they use, know and trust I would think it likely that application may be put forward for serious consideration, due purely to lack of time on their part.

Even with all the legislation around about discrimination, I firmly believe that there are airlines whose confidential internal policy is that they don’t want someone from such and such ethnic background, they don’t want someone over the age of 30 that can’t be moulded, they don’t want females as they all leave and have kids. This is understandable even if it is wrong, lets face it they are in business to make money. They will choose the most economical and convenient route for them and if they can get away with it, they will, but they certainly should not advertise it.

I agree, there should be a level playing field but the world is not a perfect place.

[scroggs]

Highfive is right - PPJN is only as good as the information it's given by contributors, and that information may well be wrong. It's also true to say that airlines can specify what they like when deciding who to employ - subject to legal limits on race, creed, sex and, soon, age. However, those that specify integrated over modular are perpetuating prejudices borne of the old CAP509 qualification system, and it's time that they were disabused of this nonsense because it goes against the entire point of the integrated/modular training scheme - which was developed to ensure that the product was the same whichever route you chose.

I am quite happy to write to airlines to ask them about their recruiting policies and to get them to justify the stipulations they make, If I get any quotable answers I'll happily post them here.

Scroggs

[AIRWAY]

Scroggs,

Thats very nice of you, please do let us know.

Many Thanks

[Flying Farmer]

Scroggs,

Many thanks, I am betting many will be interested in the replies.

As an afterthought some Airlines have, so I hear and may not be true, an unwritten policy of not recruiting candidates over a certain age.

Would anyone care to comment on this, not the legalities as that has been done to death, but in general. Is it a common policy, if so would like to know who not to apply to !! stamps are costing me a fortune.

Flying Farmer

[Flap45]

From the new British Airways CitiExpress Recruitment website:

www.bacitiexpressjobs.com

Applications are also welcome from non-type rated pilots who have in excess of 1000 hours flying experience or have attended a CAA or JAA full-time integrated or part-time modular flying course and have a minimum of 50 hours flying experience in the last 12 months.

[G-LOST]

I can comment about bmi regional as I may or may not have provided the information for the update on PPJN after speaking to the recruitment Captain a few days ago.

The company has 'suffered' a great deal of movement in recent months and simply seeks to minimise further losses by taking on people who are unlikely to leave for a few years. For that reason alone, they have targeted very low houred pilots as in their view these individuals are likely to stay for at least 3 years, possibly 5 years (as it will take at least 4 years to get the hours for command). Recent intakes of pilots with considerable experience have seen some of them move on quickly (most of us are actively looking at the options for the next step) to heavier metal.

Personally, I think the logic is flawed as a youngster who has been very well trained with 2000 hours jet (after 3 years) is likely to be courted by the bigger airlines and will be happy to move on by that stage.

A claim of discrimination will fail, as the company is simply seeking on commercial grounds to balance the makeup of its workforce. I understand that 5 of the most recent 8 recruits are integrated students and the other 3 have considerable experience.

LOST

[no sponsor]

Even on the Citi Express application form there is a question asking if you have: 'successfully attended an integrated (not modular) training course' - Yes or No?

[Northern Highflyer]

Flying Farmer

I have heard from several sources (i.e. people who have phoned or sent CV's to Flybe) that they will not take on people over 32.

This comment from the Flybe British European page on ppjn.
That's one off the list for us "old codgers" who are too old to be moulded. :mad:

Now where did I leave my pipe and slippers ? I am getting so forgetful in my old age. :rolleyes:

[benhurr]

It is not only the flight tests which are identical for both routes - the flight examiner can also be the same person. My IR examiner at Leeds was also the IR examiner in Jerez. Does he set different standards for passing an IR depending on if the student is integrated or modular? I think not...

Maybe airlines feel that integrated students are more likely to fit their required profile.

[no sponsor]

Flybe do take on people over 32. I know an ex-instructor who was taken on at 38 after completing an integrated course at OATS.

[Baron Von Mildred]

Flying farmer
Its definately true that some organisations descriminate on age, or use the phrase 'age commensurate with experience' which amounts to the same. I am 41 now and have been a wannabe for over 12 years, my options have definately reduced.

[FougaMagister]

G-LOST - I know one of the three non-integrated guys in the latest bmi reg intake; he has +/- 800 hours, of which 350 MEP(L), and he's 38.

Good for him! :ok:

[sixmilehighclub]

Is this discrimination?

Legally? No
Morally? Maybe

[Arthur Dent1]

Of course I have'nt got the big picture (just the small one in incredible detail). There has always been a lot of tosh on this, plus a good deal of hypocrisy and nepotism.
I have been a Captain ( small airline) and First Officer (heavy jets, large airline) and achieved regular command standard base checks, often examined by ex-mil and big airline TRE's.

My background?

Ex Self Improver, tuggy and hangar mechanic.

Wearing a white shirt and mincing around in Jerez does not make you an airman.

Digging in to face incoming artillery.

[High Wing Drifter]

My gripe is that there are several airlines that clearly discriminate against pilots who have gained their licence via the modular route (myself included, obviously).
Yeah well I imagine that that is going to happen as the modular route is relatively new to the scene.

An over generalisation but a starting point: Ex-RAF will prefer ex-RAF, ex-sponsorship will prefer cadets, ex-integrated will prefer integrated, school of lifers will probably hire the best person for the job. What is the Chief Pilot's background, that will in most cases give you an insite into their hiring requirements.

BTW, I don't believe that not hiring modular is discrimination. In terms of qualifications, an employer should be able to decide what their requirements are without interferance.

The age thing is discrimination, but you can't blame people from not wanting to move from a system that they know works or from an environment that they feel they understand and are comfortable with. Some people really do look at those of a similar age to them, but of a lesser status as failures.

I understand that 5 of the most recent 8 recruits [at BMI] are integrated students and the other 3 have considerable experience.
I think they have recruited some of those made redundant from European .

[BigAir]

Sadly this type of "discrimination" occurs in many areas - take the Oxbridge/Old Boys network as an example - does having a 2:1 from Oxbridge make you better than having a 2:1 from one of the new universities? Well some would argue yes, others would argue that those candidates going to the new style uni had worked harder because they probably were there as they didn't have the entry requirements for a bigger uni... Could you then go on to say that companies doing their "Milk Run" who only use selected universities are discriminating.... well in a way yes they are, but as has been pointed out previously they are going for products that they are aware of, have probably been through themselves and know all the details about.

I hope Scroggs gets some meaningful replies and enlightens some people within the industry, as us lower down on the food chain are too paranoid about upsetting the apple cart in a small industry.

[5150]

I think what we're trying to get at here is the discrimination that appears to be going on doesn't take into account the following:

14 exams, CPL and IR flight tests are all examined externally by the CAA.

It shouldn't make any difference where you study/train for these, at the end of the day, we're all in the same pot when it comes to the crunch, so therefore, why should those that can afford to attend an integrated course, get a better chance of getting an airline job than those who traditionally struggle through a modular course for financial or other reasons......?

[aardvark keeper]

The hardship, struggles & general non-flying difficulties with modular doesn't gain any admiration these days. I have heard it far too often that an integrated licence holder is more current , even after 6 months from issue.

[5150]

Perhaps you've heard it too often because it's true......

My post makes no point re; currency.

[scroggs]

You'll not be surprised to learn that the average response has been 'We do not comment of matters of recruiting policy'. In fact, most won't even give me that much - but they are reading this! I suspect that one or two who've specified 'integrated only' (or OAT, say, only) are basically ill-informed about the current training requirements and examination culture, and are too lazy to learn - at the moment, those few going that route can get what they want within those specifications. That won't last.....

As for High Wing Drifter's contention that 'ex-integrated [Chief Pilots] will prefer integrated [applicants]', that would be a hell of an achievement - the modular/integrated system has only been here a few years! For someone to have completed an integrated course, left, joined an airline, progressed to command, and made Chief Pilot in that time would be... highly dubious! But there's some truth in what he says, and I do believe that those Chief Pilots (or DFOs) who remember the CAP509 system (which in itself is probably after their time) might equate integrated courses with that. Even Chief Pilots can be pretty dumb, sometimes!

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

Whoops! Was it just Cadet/RAF/Self Improver in pre-history then?

:O

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My advice is to claim you have completed an Integrated Course structure.

I bet half the recruiters wouldn't be able to tell you what the difference is, which schools do them or at which airfields. Given this how are they to tell by looking at your logbook and your CAA license if you followed an Integrated or Modular course?

I could tell. I could spot the slight differences in the sequence of training flights and the subtle differences in the SPIC time etc.

But unless your recruiter has been a fairly recent commercial flying instructor (they won't have been) they have no hope of spotting the difference.

Are they up to date with who are approved to conduct Integrated? At which airfields do they operate? What are their aircraft registrations? Do they stamp logbooks?

Nah. Not a chance.

It might not work if there are large gaps - 6 months or more - between your CPL and your IR. But even then I'd give you a better than evens chance of sailing through the recruitment process untroubled.

What have you got to lose? If somebody does challenge you directly tell them you thought Modular and Integrated courses means Self or Airline Sponsored. Or that the two are the same nowadays - aren't they?

Worst you will get is a polite correction and the interview will be terminated.

For gawds sake don't lie about anything else but this is something they are asking for merely out of ignorance.

Cheers


WWW

[5150]

Personally I wouldn't lie in an application or interview

www's comments are more likely now to encourage recruiters to scrutinise candidates than before.

You can't say it's alright to lie in one respect and not in another just purely based on the probability that they won't bother to check out the facts.......

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Of course you shouldn't lie. You might well not understand the difference between Modular and Integrated training routes though. Saw an advert 'Learn to Fly!" in a magazine and went from there etc.

If subsequently the recruitment process is incapable of spotting this error and you can pass all the assesments, the training, the exams and the line training - well. Fair enough.

Does anyone honestly think that they are a better pilot because they have 10 less hours at Kiddlington/Jerez/Cranfield than the other guy who trained with the same instructors in the same aircraft at the same time to pass the same tests and the same exams?

Cheers

WWW

[ChocksAwayUK]

I don't think it has anything to do with recruiter's ignorance or them believing that the integrated route creates a better pilot.

It simply minimizes risk to airline. They're in a position to make demands like this so why shouldn't they. A student on an intergrated course will be constantly monitored and under the scrutiny of many more points of assessment with a single organisation and can be discouraged from completeing the course if they're not suitable (I know the more cynicical of you may say that an FTO is unlikely to turn down business and you may be right). However, an airline can easily contact Jerez, OAT or whoever and get a good idea of the calibre of the student and assertain whether they'll sail through a type rating and go on to be reliable pilot and an asset to the company.

[retro cowboy]

A student on an intergrated course will be constantly monitored and under the scrutiny of many more points of assessment

Really? What are these other assessments you took whilst at your integrated school? I know of at least 15 people who've done integrated courses and they've never heard of these extra "assessments". I have nothing against integrated/modular/sponsored routes, its just what ever you prefer isn't it!

EVERYONE TAKES THE SAME EXAMS, and until someone can prove otherwise there should be no discrimination. I passed everything first time - ATPL's/IR/CPL (modesty out of the window now), but if you compared me with an integrated student who failed everything first time would this still mean that they are more suitable to the job than I?

Please remove this soap box from beneath my feet.

[High Wing Drifter]

Chocks,

Aside from professional recommendations, which even in integrated land must surely be in the vast minority of successful employment scenarios; the only way I can accept your argument is if the entry criteria for the integrated school were such that the majority of applicants would fail entrance. The CTC chaps I had the pleasure of mixing with on the Bristol course seemed to me to be, on average, of a higher calibre than your average trainee (only an impression mind).

Scroggs answered a question of mine about GAPAN in the other forum. Aside from GAPAN, I believe that the selection test used by CTC, for example, is the Advanced COMPASS test (is that correct?). The test is available to anybody willing to pay the fee. Maybe it is upto the modular individual to proove they are more than the sum of their ratings as it would be for the self-sponsored integrated graduate?

[ChocksAwayUK]

I was just posting my thoughts and conclusions based on what i had heard from those in recruitment at the airlines that require applicants from integrated students. Neither of them seemed ignorant to the new system or believed that integrated schools churn out better pilots. All of them sang the praises of the modular system and entirely recommended it if that is what suits you. It did for me and that is why I am awaiting Module 1 of Bristol Groundschool to arrive br courier today. Not sure why you presumed I had attended an integrated course.

If you've really contacted these 15 people this morning you're clearly bonkers. However, i was told that integrated students would be being constantly assessed by the same organisation (rather than the just the exams and tests which can be sat at a multitude of establishments on the modular system) and this made sense to me. I'm sorry if i was under the wrong impression.

[High Wing Drifter]

Chocks,

I'm interested in this assessment thing. Is this during hour building? This is the only time that I am pretty much left to my own devices. As you will be aware when you get your Bristol pack, the ground school assessment is constant. Other than that you will be in P.U/S training for your ME, CPL and IR, if you're not doing well here, then I think they'll let you know!

However, if you are saying that the hour building phase is properly structured then I agree. That would be an advantage as an employer will have more confidence in your ability to transit controlled airspace and function in busier environments (depending on the quality fo the structure). Other than the school not getting zone infringement letters from the CAA in the morning post, how can this be assessed more per se?

[ChocksAwayUK]

Hmmm... you know I'm really not sure HWD. As i've already implied I have very limited direct experience in the training and the recruitment process so I don't want anyone to take anything I say i as fact (I'm sure you're not!).

Really I'm just repeating what I've from some select people involved in the recruitment process. To me it makes sense that some airlines will want to make things easy for themselves, save money and minize risk in this way. I'm sure they're ruling out many pilots of easily acceptable calibre and of course it's unfair to us on the modular route... however the airlines are in a position to be able to this... there's unlikely to be a lack of decent candidates from integrated schools and I can see (and I understand many disagree) how they might present a lower "training risk" purley because they've completed everything whilst being assessed by a single approved organisation.

As i said I'm no authority on this..just saying it as i perceive it.

[High Wing Drifter]

I think there is probably something to be said for the consistency in training. FWIW, I have heard that modular types should not scatter their training around various organisations. I have interpreted that to mean do your CPL, ME and IR with the same people. Not sure if anybody else can add a bit to this impression.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Pah! You are a student on a CPL course at a school. You fly a syllabus and after each flight your instructor writes a report in your training file. That happens whether you are Integrated or Modular. Same for the IR. Groundschool all that gets recorded are progress test scores and actual exam results.

There is no more or less continuous monitoring thoughout each route. There is no difference in the qualifications of the instructors nor anything other than a few mild tweaks to the syllabi. You are very much trained to pass the CPL Skilltest and the IRT. Thats all. In days gone by the British had the 509 course which went over and above this. It demanded better instructors, better facilities, a much better syllabus and all sorts of things. Thats been dead for years now.

Get over it.


Cheers

WWW

[StudentInDebt]

I have done each module of my frozen ATPL at different training providers and I haven't suffered in the slightest.

Nearly all the guys I worked with over 3 years instructing did the same thing which was really funny bearing in mind that we were working for one of the largest training organisations in Europe. They all have jobs.

Edited because I recognise that I am a bitter and twisted individual

[scroggs]

To me it makes sense that some airlines will want to make things easy for themselves, save money and minize risk in this way

Chocks you're right in that a few ill-informed and essentially lazy Chief pilots and Directors Flight Operations will take the integrated applicant route in the mistaken impression that they are minimizing the risk to their organisation - and, most definitely, to make things easy for themselves!

It is precisely because there is no difference between the modulated and integrated training schemes that schools like Oxford are desperately trying to introduce some differentiation through extra (yet unnecessary and bloody expensive) modules tacked on to their basic integrated courses. They hope that this will do two things: attract more well-funded students to their schools, and convince airline recruiters that their product is better than other schools' products.

The trouble is, the airlines won't pay for this stuff and you guys in general can't raise the money, so these integrated 'plus' courses are not yet that successful. One of the major factors in their failure to become more popular is the lack of any substantive evidence that their graduates are any more attractive to the industry than the vanilla integrated or modular chap. Oxford, in particular, seem particularly 'creative' in their claims for how many of their students they've found jobs for, and how they did it, so I'm loath to accept any claims for the validity of their APP course, for example.

A far better option for the airlines seems to be the CTC type setup where the financial risk is still essentially borne by the student, yet the airlines have considerable input on the qualification for, and the conduct and supervision of, the courses. These are called sponsorships, but they're basically enhanced integrated courses on HP! However, they're available only to the few, and the industry must continue to recruit on the open market - which is where you guys come in.

The bottom line is that there is no appreciable difference between an integrated and a modulated graduate. Most airlines appreciate this and are only interested in the fact that you have the licence, the medical, the requisite hours and are willing to earn a relative pittance while they try and turn you into a useful pilot.

Scroggs

[retro cowboy]

What have you done November Whiskey, it used to be such a peaceful website!

With regards to ChocksAwayUK and their comment about me being bonkers... well yes I am, and so will you be when you've finished your training and end up being discriminated against!

[Busbar]

Well my two penny's worth now:

I have just landed my first job with a very big airline on a jet. I am low hours (290 TT), self-sponsored modular route at a reasonably small school and my dad is not the chief pilot of this company! I applied like everybody else and happened to be one of the chosen few for interview.

On the day of the interview, there were 16 of us including me, the majority being from Oxford Integrated courses. However there was two other guys from my background and a PPL flying instructor with 1300 hours from the 'self-improver' route. Now apart from the fact that there were no ex-military guys, there were people from every background.

I was told personally by the guy that interviewed me that he did not really care where or how I got the licence, but I was employable as I had a current licence and that was all he was interested in! He asked me what I thought of my training school and did I think my training had been good? I gave an honest answer that I thought it had been excellent and nothing more was said on the matter.

So what does that tell you? I know it's different from Airline to Airline but this company was not bothered in the slightest. The problem with this industry is nothing is ever logical or follows a concise path, which leaves all those people applying in the dark. I applied to bmi regional months ago and I was told I had to have 1500hrs, 150 multi, or an EMB145 type rating! The next month I hear they take on several low hours guys????? Where is the logic there?

[High Wing Drifter]

The problem with this industry is nothing is ever logical or follows a concise path
You should do a spell in IT! Sometimes it feels like all bad bits in the Human Factors book all mixed together :uhoh:

[ChocksAwayUK]

With regards to ChocksAwayUK and their comment about me being bonkers... well yes I am, and so will you be when you've finished your training and end up being discriminated against!

Actually i reckon I'm halfway there already to be following this career :(
Best of luck in your job hunt.. at least the majority or airlines have a more open minded policy.