Advice about JAA PPL training in US

[Malena]

I am planing to take a JAA PPL training in the US this coming june. I have found websites for Naples Air Center, Orlando Flight Training and UK Flight Training in Lancaster, PA and Long Beach CA.
How does one choose a ground school when one is in Europe.? Can anybody tell me their experience with any of these flying schools or any others that you may know?

Malena.

[MikeJeff]

I went to NAC the other week to do an IMC + Night. Have to say it was almost all good. I know weather etc is more reliable out there, but I do believe that a lot of UK flying schools could benefit from their approach to flying and training.

In terms of doing my PPL out there intensivly, everyone seemed to do OK that I spoke to and as a pilot with some experience in the UK, I'd only have two reservations in recommending someone do a PPL in the States - and this applies to any school out there.

Firstly the radio is another world. I think each system has its merits and demerits (in the US you are cleared to land a long time before the runway is clear for you to do so... Tower controllers can give assigned headings.. how on earth that can be acceptable without a radar I don't know! but on the other hand. You get cleared for an ILS approach from the start, no need to report LLZ established and then get a further descent clearance and although the RT is a little too informal, it usually means you get an explanation for everything you're told to do - for example, "can I pursuade you to turn left onto 310 after take-off, I've got two jets departing any they'll be right up your a*s!")

Second thing is the nav is completly different and I think much more difficult. Especially in that part of Florida, which is dominated by swampland! However you'll find that makes nav in the congested UK seem much easier!

[BillieBob]

One immediate and glaring difference is that, unlike the other two, UKFT does not hold a JAA approval

[birdlady]

Hi Malena

I presume you are thinking of the states because of cost and weather. That's all fine but have you considered South Africa for your ppl. I have just completed my JAA PPL here in Johannesburg with a school called Flight Training College of Africa. They were the only ones who offered JAA and they have gone bankrupt (two days after I finished my test - phew). As with FTC going bankrupt, I have moved schools and just completed my SA PPL. I have to say it was a far more fun licence to do and far more practicle. Because all our routes were JAA approved (in other words a JAA official came out and assigned routes) it was very limiting and not as challenging. I presume this is going to be the same in the states. The SA PPL, on the otherhand, depends all on the route your instructor wants to do so they will choose a route thats more challenging. The first time I did a grass landing and an unmanned airfield full stop landing was on my saa ppl test. This is where it can be slightly limiting. Plus, as Mike mentioned with the radio work, SA's is much more similar to UK's. Its an ICAO PPL so you can fly in the UK on it and it can be used to convert to the JAA CPL obviously once you have finished the appropriate hours (100 P1) and your JAA ATP theory. The school I am at now is called Pooleys in Grand Central and is owned by a bloke callled Lenard Edwards. He's a grade 1 instructor and holds an atpl so is very experienced. He used to run FTC so he is very familar with the JAA training.
Hope this helps and if you need anymore info, please dont hesitate to contact me

Birdlady :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[FWA NATCA]

Mike,

On a IFR flight plan, VFR tower controllers receive their departure headings that they issue to you from the controlling IFR facility. As for being cleared to land prior to the runway being clear, that is called anticipating separation, and is legal within the 7110.65. Phraselogy being laxed, just like the U.K. we have specific phraselogy that we are required to use, as with pilots, controllers can develop poor phraselogy habits too, which when the facility undergoes a evaluation will be corrected.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[Chilli Monster]

One immediate and glaring difference is that, unlike the other two, UKFT does not hold a JAA approval

However, if you want to go to Long Beach (Just come back from doing an FAA multi CPL/IR there) Rainbow Air (http://www.rainbowair.com) does.

[MikeJeff]

Hi Mike

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I understand that for IFR flights departing from a VFR field will get a relayed departure clearance. However, the example that stuck in my mind, was a VFR departure and we were asked "Nxxxx would you mind turning onto 310. I've got two jets departing after you and they'll be straight up your @ss!"

Now I have no problem with the request.. and he certainly enabled us to formulate a better strategy!

As for the landing clearance, I know it's legal and I don't think it's been responsible for any accidents, just like "land after" hasn't in the UK. However, I still don't like it.. Hairy women are legal and I don't like them either!! It doen't mean I'm right in my opinion I'm yet to be convinced though.

I think ATC in ths US is great in my limited opinion. I would be wary of recommending newbie UK pilots going and learning the RT out there, expecting to come home and be competant at UK RT?

[englishal]

I learned in LA, and had no problems adjusting when I got home. I now regularly fly in the US and UK....

Many of the towers have radar feeds into them. I guess (Mike will be able to tell us I'm sure) they are predictive, as they always seem to be correct when they tell you "Heavy 767 on final for 30, you will preceed him through the Intersection".....as you looking out to your left and watching a 767 converging :D



EA

[FWA NATCA]

Englishal,

Some VFR towers have a BRITE or similar radar data display so the locations without depend upon the controlling IFR facility to give them a position report on IFR inbounds. All inbounds to a VFR tower will usually be asked to report approximately 3 miles out so that they can be sequenced in with local pattern traffic.

At a combined approach and tower all inbounds (VFR and IFR) are sequenced by the approach control, so the tower only has to sequence their pattern traffic in with the sequenced arrival traffic.

At some airports we are still permitted to utilize LAHSO (Land and Hold Short Operations), were two aircraft land on different runways but one or both are holding short of the Runway Intersections. Regretfully where I work (KFWA) we are only to use LAHSO between GA aircraft or between GA and Military, so this restrictive use has slowed some of our operations down.

As for someone from the UK coming to the US to train, I think what is truly important is the quality of training, any differences in phraselogy or minor differences in procedures shouldn't prevent anyone from being able to quickly adapt. With the exchange rate the cost of training here in the US is a good deal, and the experience of touring the US is usually a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Mike
NATCA FWA

[englishal]

Thanks for that mike,

Couldn't agree more with your last paragraph.

Cheers

[vinil]

For those who are not aware UKFT does not require any CAA approval for PPL. They still offer JAA PPL which is issued from the UK CAA.

[Keygrip]

Vinil - interesting comment there - care to explain why everybody else needs approval - but not UK Flight Training?

[Pinga]

Vinil, you are completely wrong. UKFT does not as at today appear on the list of CAA Approved establishments. Why do you think that other FTO's spend fortunes on approvals if they simply wern't necessary as you claim?

What you have done is confused yourself and/or attempted to confuse others with the fact that UKFT can train you to obtain an FAA licence and then you can fly in the UK on the back of it just the same as the rest of us with CAA/JAA licenses can fly in the USA on an FAA licence conversion based on the validity of our CAA/JAA licenses.

For what it's worth, Naples Air Centre has the best reputation by far of any JAA flight training establishment in the USA and probably even the world. I kid you not. Yes, I've been there so I know. I've also spoken to ex UKFT students and you wouldn't want to hear their opinions!

[englishal]

JAA = (your)money

Which is why all JAA FTO's in the US charge pretty much JAA prices - $400+ / hr for ME IR training at one particular establishment, which is done in US skies, and therefor FAA IR training in my book, not that there is anything wrong with that....though at $220 per hour.

UKFT don't have the CAA approval, for the simple fact that it costs them £5000 per year, for essentially a jolly for the inspector, but they can carry out *some* UK training, for example IMC or licence conversion (ICAO/FAA to JAA).......by virtue of the fact that they have a UK examiner there.......just what I heard on the grapevine.

EA

[vinil]

Absolutely right JAA = Your hard earned $$$$

I love it. Everytime I try to tell people that UKFT does not need any approval I get this amazing reaction from many.

One does not need a JAA PPL to fly a G registered aircraft in the UK or in Europe. UKFT offers FREE JAA PPL option should someone wants one.



Pinga: sounds like you are on a commission like me..

[englishal]

To clear up a few misconceptions for newbies....... I have met many confused people doing their "JAR Complient" licences in the US, who thought they we're getting some new type of licence. So here goes:-

1) A JAR Complient licence (from the US) is an FAA PPL, with the added bonus of having UK RT thrown in. You can use this licence in the US and abroard (the UK) to fly N reg or G reg aircraft.

2) A JAR Complient licence is NOT a JAA or CAA licence, but a licence which complies with ICAO rules (ie. and FAA PPL).

3) Doing a JAR Complient licence you get is an FAA PPL with UK RT added on. Some places might offer a "free" JAA conversion, though to do this, if under 100 hrs TT you must take the JAA written exams and pass a GFT with a JAA examiner. If over 100TT I believe all you need to do is take the JAA written exams.

4) An FTO in the US does not need to be CAA approved to train someone for the FAA PPL (JAR Complient as they like to call it). They do not need to be CAA approved to carry out the GFT for the FAA > JAA conversion, and they do not need (AFAIK) to be CAA approved to carry out Night / IMC rating sign-off and test.

5) The FTOs which offer this JAR Complient licence can offer a JAA licence and get around the "Approved" rules by using number 4 above. Once you have your FAA certificate, then they can legally convert you to a JAA licence without having approval as long as there is a CAA FE there.

I personally don't see a problem with the JAR Complient route as long as you know what you're paying for, what I do think is a bit misleading is the way it is marketed. I spoke to one Girl in the US, and she was under the impression that she would walk away with a FAA licence, a JAA Licence and a JAR Complient licence. In actual fact she walked away with an FAA PPL with JAA RT. Still, if they are willing to convert you for free then even better. Some places definition of free =GFT fees (and re-test?), aircraft fees & exam fees.

EA

[Pinga]

No commision I'm sad to say vinil but on a truth mission. Misleading people into thinking that they are going to get a JAA PPL is quite wrong. It matters considerably for some people that they do actually get a JAA license and not just the right to fly in another country especially when they have long term plans to go commercial. Also, there used to be particular problems for those with an FAA licence flying in Spain (just one that I have personal experience of) like loads of paperwork before you can rent a Spanish reg. aircraft. What are the problems of obtaining a UK IMC rating to bolt onto your FAA licence? What are the complications of flying a UK reg aircraft into another country? All things to be considered very carefully before taking the cheap route which may not be so cheap in the long term.

Taking of commision, are you a commisioned officer of UKFT? If you want a bun fight, I bet you a fiver against your quid that a search on NAC returns better results than a search on UKFT The proof is in the pudding as they say old chap;)

[chopperpilot47]

Why these threads turn into a bun fight I don't know. I have a letter dated 8 May 2003 from S D White, Policy Co-ordination, Safety Regulation group, Personnel Licencing Department, Civil Aviation Authority which says, (direct quotes):

"I can confirm that the PPL conducted at UK flight training is valid for use in the UK in accordance with the conditions laid down in the UK Air Navigation Order 2000, article 21(4). I believe that your Frequently asked questions accurately reflect what you can/can't do with the FAA PPL and associated ratings.

I can also confirm that UK flight training has been recognised by the UK CAA since 1990 as a flight school conducting training in accordance with CAA and JAR-FCL requirements. UK flight training has since voluntarily withdrawn from JAR-FCL training, but remains qualified to conduct CAA ratings and JAR PPL skill tests in accordance with Mr Ajay Sinha's Examiners Authority".

That is word for word from the CAA's letter. If you want to know what the FAQ's referrred to are look at www.dutchcountryhelo.com where they are reproduced.

I think that is clear enogh don't you? I have no personal connection with UK flight training, they have a base at the hanger next door to mine in Lancaster. As a Brit helicopter pilot working in the USA I frequently see UK students of UK flight training and always stop for a chat with them. I have to say that I know they are frequently issued both FAA and CAA PPL's if they want them. I also have to say that why anyone bothers with the CAA one when they have all the privilages with much less hassle with the FAA one alone is beyond me.

You can PM me if you need any further information.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Chopperpilot,

Quote:

"I also have to say that why anyone bothers with the CAA one when they have all the privilages with much less hassle with the FAA one alone is beyond me."

Perhaps so they can take a G registered aeroplane outside of the UK airspace, ie to France, legally?

Of course if they were flying an N reg aeroplane then all they would need is the FAA certificate to fly anywhere in the world.

Ooh dear, I've just opened a chestnut of worms here... ;)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[englishal]

Perhaps so they can take a G registered aeroplane outside of the UK airspace, ie to France, legally?
You can legally take a G reg plane outside of the UK on an FAA ticket...so I've just closed the can of worms;)

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi EnglishAl,

Oh dear, I was a little mis-informed. Doesn't really affect me anyway as my first licence was a CAA PPL (and still is current) thus my ignorance to this matter.

Sorry everyone!

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[vinil]

I was told by a CAA PPL holder that his CAA PPL was not accepted to fly in Switzerland and he needed a JAA PPL however the Swiss will accept a FAA PPL holder flying a G reg aircraft.

Where does it all end...