Flight Plan Route: naming of points off designated routes

[Aussie Andy]

In case I am not the only clown not clear about this, some of you blokes might be inetrested in the thread on this I started on ATC forum and got some helpful responses. See http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127956

Cheers!


Andy :ok:

[IO540]

There is an official reference called PANS-RAC which specifies the valid format of an ICAO flight plan.

While a lot of people put all sorts of stuff in VFR flight plans, and seem to get away with it, I think that could be one of the reasons why VFR flight plans frequently get lost when you go abroad.

The CAA safety leaflet wasn't quite correct, from what I recall.

[Foxbat01]

PANS RAC Doc 444

An ICAO Document so fruitful in information but so difficult to locate a copy.

One day I'll scan the bits I have about FPL but for now it is a shame the authors of the Safety Sense Leaflet were so close but so far.

Essentially PANS RAC Doc 444 reads for routes:

For Flights outside designated routes

Insert points not normally 30 min flying time or 370km 200NM) apart.....

essentially the Route portion of Field 15 of the FPL (or CA48) you can use:

ATS Route (2 to 7 Characters). The coded designator assigned to the route;

i.e. BCN1, B1, UB10 etc

Significant point (2 to 11 characters) which could be:

The coded designator, (2 to 5 characters), they mean airways points but anyone can use them if you know where they are and they are on your route.

i.e. KATHY, ORTAC, or even CROFT (where have I seen that before?)

Unfortuately this does not include town names or VRP names.

If no coded designator then one of the following:

Degress only (7 Characters) i.e. 46N078W or even 50N002W

Degrees and Minutes (11 Characters)
i.e. 5052N00135 is Cap Gris-nez just North of Le Touquet

Bearing and distance from a navigation aid

therefore the VRP named KEIGHLEY west of Leeds Bradford is POL04810 which mean radial 048 deg 10 NM from POLhill VOR

The standard format does not allow for free format town names, VRP or even ICAO (or IATA) aerodrome designators like EGLL (LHR to IATA Fans) for Heathrow in the route field.

[Aussie Andy]

therefore the VRP named KEIGHLEY west of Leeds Bradford is POL04810 which mean radial 048 deg 10 NM from POLhill VOR This is easy and I have used this method: one question though, is it always 3 digits of radial then two digits of distance?

Thanks,


Andy

[Fly Stimulator]

Andy,

The only bit which is really vital is the route to the restaurant, so here is the flight plan for that:

LFAF DCT REM31522

;)

[Aussie Andy]

Got it!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/andyhardyuk/pprune/restaurant.gif

Andy :ok:

[IO540]

Foxbat01

Excellent contribution! PLEASE write to the author of the CAA leaflet. These leaflets are treated as gospel by many but in fact are full of errors.

[Foxbat01]

Aussie Andy asked: one question though, is it always 3 digits of radial then two digits of distance?

Yes, the radial is always three digits including leadingg zero and distance two digits up to 01 to 99 NM

[Floppy Link]

unless it's over 100nm away ?
But then it might be closer to another VOR or defined by lat/long
..will trawl the aerads next time at work and report back if I can find one.
R
:ok:

[IO540]

FL

You will have problems picking up a VOR at > 99nm if flying at any likely GA altitude. In that case it would be better to use the lat/long format.

One needs to be careful with certain flight planning programs that have ICAO Flight Plan generation capability. This appears extremely useful, and it is, but the FP isn't necessaily generated entirely correctly. Navbox for example quietly discards waypoints which are airfield identifiers - it should replace them with something that is allowed. Similarly, it discards user waypoints.

I find that some 50% of flight plans disappear without trace. Obviously the initial outbound leg is fine because it is filed at my home airfield (ATC) but FPs which are entirely abroad usually vanish. Quite possibly, some tiny detail causes them to be discarded...

[bookworm]

Foxbat01

I'm puzzled that you give such excellent info apparently quoted frpm Doc 4444, and yet one small aspect is incorrect. :confused:

Radial and distance from a navaid uses a 3-digit bearing and a 3-digit distance. So POL048010.

[Foxbat01]

Radial and distance from a navaid uses a 3-digit bearing and a 3-digit distance. So POL048010

Bookworm,

you are right! you perhaps also noticed that the Navaid name could be two or three characters as well!!!!

The full text reads

Bearing and Distabnce from a navigation aid:

The identification of the navigation aid (normally a VOR), in he form of 2 or 3 characters, THEN the bearing from the aid in the form of 3 figures giving degrees magnetic, THEN the distance from the aid in the form of 3 figures expressing nautical miles, make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of zeros - e.g. a point 180 deg magnetic at a distance of 40 nautical miles from VOR "DUB" should be expressed as DUB180040.

[Aussie Andy]

Fabulous! Thanks guys, now I know. But overriding all of this is the responses I got on the ATC thread (same subject) where the people dealing with FPLs made it clear I may as well just file say "DCT SAM DCT MP" even if I intend to skirt around Solent radar airspace and route via Portsmouth Harbour etc, and not to bother with more detailed descriptions of turning points as they don't carry much meaning for them!

But, as always, we can learn everything right here on PPRUNE!

Andy :ok:

[IO540]

Aussie Andy,

I would guess that you are right as far as achieving the required addressing for the FP, i.e. which ATC units it gets sent to. A VFR FP doesn't get sent to any units en-route, as far as I know, except possibly the regional service e.g. London Info.

But for search and rescue purposes it's different, and SAR is the only reason I can think of for doing a FP within the UK.

However I suspect, as I've said, that flight plans with any unusual items on them get discarded without ceremony by persons abroad. Putting a phone/fax number on the bottom, even with the correct prefix etc, doesn't seem to make the slightest difference.

[Aussie Andy]

IO540: SAR is the only reason I can think of for doing a FP within the UK. ... as well as the need to file when when crossing the FIR boundaries, which is the only reason I've ever filed one.

Agree totally with yout other points,


Andy

[IO540]

AA

I have never yet flown England-Scotland and have always thought one needs to file a FP for that (crossing FIRs) but the answer from the CAA is definitely NO, no FP is needed. I don't have the ref handy...

[Aussie Andy]

Good point: not all FIR BDYs but international FIR BDYs ;)

[dublinpilot]

Sorry to drag this thread up from the depths.

But I remembered reading this thread at the time.

In Ireland, we tend to put town names on our VFR flight plans, and all goes well. After reading this thread originally, I put a VOR radial (such as DUB270030 or some such) on a flight plan and faxed it off. 10 minutes later I had a phone call from AIS asking me what this was. When I explained, I was asked what town was it near, and they replaced it with that.

I'm now planning my first trip to France, and note IO540's comments earlier in this thread about the amount of VFR flights plans that seem to go missing.

In an effort to make sure mine don't go missing, would I be better to use town names, VOR bearings, or IFR way points on my flight plan?

dp

[Spitoon]

Just for info ICAO Doc 4444 is now titled PANS-ATM - re-issued a couple of years ago as I recall.

Whilst I'm not familiar with the detail of FPL content the broad subject matter in the revised document is unchanged and FPLs are probably as Foxbat describes.

[DFC]

Use what the ICAO document says. i.e. don't use town names in the route.

If you want to help local ATC then in other information use a remark to explain where the navaid range/bearings are referring to.

e.g.;

RMK/ Turnpoints ABC090012 (Smallville) DEF330050 (nice town)

Then your flight plan will be correctly compiled and anyone reading the plan can (if they know the region) see where you are routing without having to plot your route.

Regards,

DFC