IAP for visual transit to another aerodrome

[tmmorris]

Sorry if this is a basic question, but... if I want e.g. to do an ILS at airfield A with a view to making a visual transit to land at B, how do I do it? Specifically,

(a) what do I ask for?
(b) at what point can I break off the approach if I become visual? Is that my decision or the controller's? WHat do I say?
(c) whose decision is it that the weather is suitable for the transit? Do I choose the route or the controller (this would be entirely in class D, i.e. A's CTR but B is inside it as well).
(d) as I'm likely to get charged for this, how do I pay?! If it happens it won't be 100% pre-planned, so I can't pay in advance, realistically.

Many thanks for your help.

Tim

[vintage ATCO]

Best ring airfield A and have a chat with them about all you say. One or two airfields and now getting a bit squiffy about this I believe.

VA

[eastern wiseguy]

This happens a bit at BFS . The aircraft involved merely states that it would like an ILS approach to (for example)runway 25 with a visual break for runway 26 at Langford lodge.
The aircraft breaks off when visual and lands at the previously mentioned Langford lodge having reported "VISUAL".
The decision for the weather is yours.
As for paying I have no idea.
The airfield in this case is unlicensed but still active(LANGFORD that is!!)

HOPE THAT HELPS :ok:

[bookworm]

Assumptions:

1) Your destination is outside the class D
2) You're doing this because the cloud base/ceiling there is below the MSA

in which case

b) The default clearance should be an IFR arrival at the airport with IAP. Thus when visual, you should request to cancel IFR and proceed VFR or SVFR to the zone boundary

c) is interesting. Does this count as an arrival, departure or transit for the purposes of Rule 24(3), which requires you to use the aerodrome's reported vis for VFR approaches?

As VA says, much better to call the airport in advance to check (you could always offer them a credit card number to pay if necessary). The level of welcome for the manoeuvre is somewhat variable. I seem to remember Frankfurt weren't to thrilled about someone flying their ILS in a C152 and then breaking off for Egelsbach.

[FWA NATCA]

Tim,

Where I work we see this request when the wx is barely VFR due to ceilings and the aircraft is on an IFR flight plan and needs to descend through IMC conditions to reach VFR conditions (in the US is 3 miles and 1000 ft. ceilings which is well below our minimum vectoring altitude of 2200).

The pilot will normally inform the approach controller that they want to shoot the ILS approach at KFWA, then when they get below the clouds (VFR Conditions) cancel their IFR clearance and continue on to XXX airport VFR.


Mike
NATCA FWA

[tmmorris]

Thanks for replies - I followed the advice and rang airfield A. When I tell you that the airfield policy is that I must complete the approach and make a touch and go - thereby incurring a landing and probably navigation fee - you will not be surprised to hear that the airfield in question is run by BAA... The nice chap I spoke to in ATC were very apologetic about the policy which they insisted was not their fault!

For what it's worth, as I said originally the destination is also inside the class D.

Tim

[vintage ATCO]

I can understand an airfield charging for the approach and go-around, a navigation charge in other words, but insisting someone does a touch and go. . . . ?? :confused:

What if you make a b@lls of it and block their runway. . :p
(Not that I am suggesting you would!!)

[tmmorris]

What if you make a b@lls of it and block their runway.

Well quite, especially as (giving it away here if you've read the NOTAMs) their other runway is closed to fixed-wing at present...

Tim

[NorthSouth]

Makes it hard for aircraft based at Kirknewton since they can't then get in unless it's VFR all the way in from the zone boundary. However even if you could do a visual break-off from the ILS to go to Kirknewton the elevation there is 550ft higher than Edinburgh's so if you break cloud at 1000ft on the approach to Edin you'd be hard-pressed to maintain VFR all the way over to Kirknewton.

BAA now don't allow any training flights that don't end in a landing at Edinburgh either. Used to get Leuchars Tornados, Tayflite PA34s and all sorts doing ILSs to a go-around.

[tmmorris]

OK, so it's Kirknewton/Edinburgh... :-)

Looks though as though I could get from Edi to Ktn with about a 1500ft cloudbase (MSL)? That's way below MSA for the sector from TLA so it's still useful, i.e. if cloudbase is below MSA but above 1500 I do an ILS to a touch-and-go at Edi then VFR to Ktn; less than 1500ft land at Edi; more than MSA VFR straight in to Ktn. Should work...? Some of the options are pricey I admit.

Tim

[caniplaywithmadness]

You could always do an ILS to break at Glasgow and then continue VFR, we get them all the time for a/c just wanting to have a look around or for a/c inbound IFR to EGPG (Cumbernauld).

You won't have to make a touch and go and as far as I'm aware, you won't get charged (but don't quote me on that one)

Might be a few more miles fuel, but offset against a landing fee at PH, might be worth it.

[2Donkeys]

I posted on this very subject a month or three ago.

I was returning in a 421C to Blackbushe from deepest France one evening but got caught by worsening weather as we crossed into the UK.

With the co-operation of Farnborough, the plan B was to borrow their ILS to break visual for a landing. The weather was certainly adequate for the manoeuvre.

However, Farnborough's ATCOs politely but firmly told us that they would be unable to help us, so we took the option of diverting into Farnborough and dropping the passengers off there.

In days of yore, this manoeuvre would have presented no problems, but for reasons that lie somewhere between safety (!) and commercial realities, it is no longer possible, even if a prior offer of payment is made.

In the event, without even the slightest prompting, the fine body of men at TAG waived all fees and the whole diversion was non-event.

A shame that politics/financials sometimes comes in the way of service provision, but thumbs up to Farnborough for making the whole experience such a positive one.


2D

[NorthSouth]

CIPWM:You could always do an ILS to break at Glasgow and then continue VFR, we get them all the time for a/c just wanting to have a look around or for a/c inbound IFR to EGPG So it looks like this policy is specific to BAA management at Edinburgh. Bad experience with the Kirknewton residents perhaps? Seems a shame to tar everyone else.

If you don't want to encourage them Tim you could turn right off Talla, descend IFR to pick up a radial off SAB, and then descend further over East Lothian then go VFR into the EDI zone.

Such a shame that airport management who have acres of car parks and shopping malls to provide them with the readies to enrich their shareholders apparently can't stop themselves creating yet another wheeze to raise the odd 50 quid every other week from aviators.

[tmmorris]

It hadn't actually occurred to me that it might be cheaper to route via SAB so I could get a lower MSA!

Anyway the trip's off now, sadly, as both I and the plane are sick... However I've learned a great deal from planning it, and will no doubt be doing it in future (I have family in Edinburgh). Full marks to Glasgow for being helpful, too.

Tim