Help... inflight rest for flight deck

[icemanalgeria]

I am looking for information from other companies regarding in flight rest when using augmented crew to the Caribbean.

The company we are wet leased to operate Caribbean charter's, they don’t want to give the crew enough rest to allow them to be acclimatized so they put a third pilot on board, but then they don’t want to provide in flight rest.

The end result is that the third crew member spends the whole flight on the jump seat (as this is the most uncomfortable) and the operating crew at the controls for the whole flight, so what’s the purpose of the third crew member being on board?

I would especially like to hear from anyone who has successfully lobbied the CAA for change in their companies FTL scheme

Many Thanks

[Viscount Sussex]

The purpose of having a third crew member in the flight deck, is to have three crew members tired. No benefits at all otherwise. But of course it makes it legal.
:rolleyes:

[Big Tudor]

Slightly cynical there VS.

There is a point to a third crew member on the flight deck. To avoid the need for sector factorisation on long-haul flights. Say, for example, the sector is 10 hours long. Unacclimatised with rest between 18-30 hours gives Max FDP of 9 3/4 hours with factorisation (4 sectors). Therefore you can't do your 10 hour sector. Take the factorisation away and you have a Max FDP of 11 1/2 hours. Factorisation only applies to 2-crew operation so, put a third pilot on and factorisation is removed.

Provided the 3rd pilot is type rated and current (which they should be) then there is no reason why they can't alternate with the appropriate crew member at the front to give some variation. It also helps to spread the workload (and conversation) over 3 head rather than 2 which can be benefical, in spite of the Viscounts opinion.

[B737NG]

We have 3 pilots for flights up to 12 hours and 4 pilots for
flights over 12 hour duriation on board. The rest area is either
the first class area or the installed crew rest area. It depends
on the AC-Type. On destination they go all in the Hotel and then
they fly back as duty crew on the next rotation. 11 hours of
flight giving for a 3 man crew every pilot a in flight rest time of
3 hours and 30 min. The Cruise Captain is SIM-checked on the
right and the left seat. I hope this gives you a little insight. If
you have further questions do not hesitate to ask.

NG

[Banzai Eagle]

Asked CAA for variation to op 2 man crew iso 3 as per Big Tudors
explanation. No medical support that 3 man crew different to 2 man crew and crew opinion 3rd crew member waste of time apart from keeping a tab on the cricket score.
CAA say no. Dinosaurs rule.
:ugh:

[GlueBall]

A First Class seat is not a proper rest area; it's not a substitute for a bed in a compartmented area.

[Big Tudor]

Glueball,

The rules in the UK are such that either a seat, separated and screened from flight deck & passengers, or a bunk may be used for in-flight rest. The amount of FDP extension varies dependent on the rest facilities available (half the amount of rest if taken in a bunk, one-third if taken in a seat).

The question here is one of 2-crew versus 3-crew long range operations. The arrival of 2-crew cockpits lead to the introduction of factorisation of long-haul sectors for the purpose of calculating allowbale FDP. It is an accepted practice in the UK to augment a 2-person crew with a third type rated and current pilot in order to remove the need to factorise the sectors. For example, a sector length of between 7 & 9 hours should be treated as a 2 sector flight for acclimatised crew. This does not come under the heading of extension of FDP by in-flight rest which is a totally separate issue.

Banzai,

Surprised at the response you got from CAA as I was under the impression that augmented crews was acceptable in their eyes. If, as you say, the medical evidence shows no difference between 2 & 3 crews operations then surely aircraft that are required to have 3 in the flight deck (DC10, 742, etc) should come under the same rules as 2-crew aircraft.

[icemanalgeria]

I have just got back from the caribbean 3 crew 2 captains 1 f/o.

I spent the all the time on the jump seat, No pratical reason for me to be there, other than to get around FTL scheme, company do not allow mere pilots to rest with their business passangers, result I'm off to the doctor's and guess he will put me on sick leave with a bad back for awhile.

Why do the CAA allow this loop hole, I would like either crew rest when ever 3 pilots are carried for any FTL reason's or lets just have 2 pilots on board.

Must try to sleep now before my next episode.

I don't like going to work any more.......

[HeroWorshipper]

Icemanalgeria,

You have an interesting interpretation of CAP371.

Firstly, as Big Tudor intimated, the purpose of having the third type-rated pilot in the cockpit was to offset the concerns with the introduction of two-crew aircraft. CAP371 makes this clear as it allows this to reduce the factorisation on long sectors where over-familiarisation can occur.

The type-rating requirement comes from appeasement of the lobby so as to alleviate potential industrial relations issues with the removal of FEs.

What CAP371 does NOT do is link this with in-flight relief, which appears to be what you are trying to say.

For instance, how can you have a positive effect on the two-crew up front if you are sat in the cabin, whether or not it is in business/first class?

I think you will find the issue is with the CAAs satisfaction with the balance of this rule, of which you seem at odds. Each AOC holder has to have an approved FTL which is approved and based on the authorities own rules. It is the authority you have your beef with, not the operator(s).

It is a shame that you have stopped enjoying going to work - I am sure you will find a solution to your issues.

If you dont' like the rules: lobby the authority.
If you don't like the company you work for: leave

Hero

[Big Tudor]

Iceman

You say you are off to the doc with a bad back. I am assuming this stems from your time on the jump seat, as that seems to be the intimation from your post. If this is the case then the Training Captains at your company must be off with bad backs an awful lot, unless of course they are supplied with an extra special comfy jump seat when they are undertaking training.

[icemanalgeria]

What ever the idea behind the 3rd crew member in reality instead of the 3 rd crew member helping the situation in a modern glass cockpit in reality the crews end up more fatigued than they would with just 2 pilots, and this is not theory but fact.

I understand totally Cap371, however the situation with my company is slightly more complicated as I work for a leasing company and not the UK company, we work to the most limiting of the 2 schemes, and my own scheme states whenever an augmented crew are used (and an augmented crew is defined as more than required by the aom) then at least a comfortable reclining seat away fron the flight deck and separated from the passengers should be available for in flight rest.

And as for the remark ” if you don’t like the company you are working for get out,” I do like the company I work for, but as a leasing company we sometimes have to work for companies I would not choose to work for, especially when I hold a JAA license.

The Chief training captain refused to do a line check this year on a 2 sector (4 hours each way) because he did not want to sit on the jump seat for so long, and other ‘s take the left or right seat during long flight’s during training not the jump seat, as happened to me on my last flight.

Hope this answer’s some of the questions in previous post’s.

P.S had a good massage and the back is nearly back to normal, bought an air cushion for the whole jump seat (bottom and back) I’ll see how that helps…Until I can escape this hell for a paradise island.