Prices and distance

[scubawasp]

Ok, a quick question.

What do you think is a fair hourly rate with/ without an instructor and do you think schools/clubs in the WHERE TO FLY GUIDES, should include landing fees and vat etc in their hourly price? Take a typical club 152 and a pa28 for arguments sake.

On top of this, quality been equal, is an airfield near your home more attractive then price? And how far have you traveled to train (lets not involved the States etc, but restrict it to within the UK)?

Cheers all

[IO540]

The % of lessons which get cancelled on the day (weather, duff plane, instructor not about, etc) is fairly high, so an airfield well within an hour's drive is highly desirable, IMHO.

You will pay for landing fees one way or another. There are about 50-80 landings plus perhaps 20 T&Gs in the average 50-60hr PPL.

A fair rate varies hugely. I can tell you how much it costs to actually own and fly a plane, but that's not the answer. Different outfits have different overheads.

Also different students get on differently in different outfits, and with different instructors. All I can say is that if you want to learn to fly for real and do a good # of hours, you will need to buy into a plane, or buy a plane, eventually, so look for learning in something close to what you will be flying afterwards - otherwise you just waste more money.

[FlyingForFun]

Is the aircraft well-maintained? Suitable for real IMC flight? Suitable for airways flight? Can I take it away for an extended period? Any other benefits such as, for example, free or reduced price instruction whilst checking out on an aircraft that I intend to solo hire??? There are far too many variables to give a sensible answer.

Landing fees should always be included in the hourly price, IMHO - although I admit that there are some airfields where the logistics of this makes it difficult. To not include them discourages pilots from practicing circuits. The same applies to privately-owned aircraft - I would like to see landing fees included in hangar or permanent parking fees for based aircraft. (I know this is the case at White Waltham, I don't know how many other airfields do this.)

Although I agree with IO540's comments about distance, I would not put it very high on my priority list. I would rather drive an hour to a club with good, competent, likeable instructors and well-maintained aircraft, rather than travel for 10 minutes to be met by grumpy staff and permanently unserviceable aircraft.

FFF
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[scubawasp]

Cheers guys,

What I was really looking for, was what Joe Bloggs thinks its worth from a perspective of a student/ non student. Not so much the logistics of a well maintained fleet, new aircraft etc.

[FlyingForFun]

Scubaswap,

I see what you're trying to get at.... but to try to give you an idea of why I'm not giving you straight answer, let me ask you another question. How much would you say is a reasonable price to pay to hire a van for a day?

FFF
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[scubawasp]

£45 per day would be reasonable to me....... I know what you mean but perhaps students feel that they are getting their percieved monies worth, or cash in = value out. What it actually costs/ running costs etc isn't what I am after.

I think that £60ph is reasonable for solo hire in a Warrior but there is no way a school can afford to operate on that level.

I also think £160ph is not unreasonable for dual at PPL level, but we'll never see that day........unless we convert to Euros:yuk:

[FlyingForFun]

£45 per day would be reasonable to meThat sounds fair to me, too (but it has been a couple of years since I last had reason to hire a van). But I also know of places that hire out vans for £30/day which I think are overpriced (I'm sure the only way they can MOT these vans is if the tester is registered blind). And I doubt you'd find one of those huge almost-HGV-type vans (I'm sure there's a name for them) for £45/day anywhere.I also think £160ph is not unreasonable for dual at PPL level, but we'll never see that dayAccording to their website, White Waltham currently charge £160/hr for a checkout in a C172 or £165/hr for training in a PA28-161/140. Which I think proves my point - although many people are scared off by the high prices, there are plenty of others who are prepared to pay them because it is a good club in just about every other way.

FFF
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[tmmorris]

I'm starting to feel lucky that my own home airfield (Oxford) doesn't charge me for either landings or IAPs - though I do have to book circuits and IAPs with the tower in advance. It makes the hourly rates I pay look much more attractive than I thought! Sadly no ILS (but Filton close enough).

Tim

[IO540]

£160/hr (inc VAT) should buy you time in a brand new (c. £170k + VAT) PA28 Archer, in which everything works, the instructor is a career instructor on PAYE (not an ATPL hour builder on £10/day retainer plus £10/hr for flying time), plus a pretty but very efficient girl on the reception desk :O

My guess :

Variable costs (hourly):

Fuel £30
50hr check £6
150hr check £8
Engine fund £10

Total variable costs = £54

Fixed costs (annual):

Annual £1500 (includes 1/3 of the extra CofA cost)
Insurance £4000
Hangarage £3000

Annual costs per hour, based on 500hrs/year = £17

So provided the plane is being worked, and provided it is new-ish so there are no major maintenance suprises, the hourly cost to the operator is £71 + VAT and they will claim back the VAT.

So at £136/hr (£160 inc VAT) they are getting an annual contribution of £32,500 towards their fixed costs and the instructor.

Obviously if it does only 200hrs/year then the annual contribution the plane generates is reduced to £7,900 and this is easily wiped out by the typical maintenance costs of an old aircraft.

Any comments from flying school operators? Where is the money going? Is it because most operate decrepit old junk which costs £10k to get through the annual?