Full flight plan for IFR transit?

[mark147]

Quick question: is a full flight plan required for an IFR flight to transit a class D CTZ/CTA in the UK? VFR flights can just call up on the radio for a transit. Is this possible/legal for IFR?

Alternatively, if I file a full IFR flight plan for a flight mainly outside CAS but, say routing overhead SAM at FL40, will Solent know I'm coming and does that give me any greater chance of a transit?

OK that was two questions!

Mark

[Chilli Monster]

To answer in order

1) Definition of a flight plan - "Sufficient information supplied to an ATC unit to enable the issuance of an ATC clearance". So, just like your VFR zone transit a call with your details before zone entry will suffice - there is no need to formally file a flight plan.

2) Flight plans filed for flights outside CAS are received only by the departure and the destinations, not by units en-route. So, filing wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if you were just a zone transit. It's still down to workload and whether they can accomodate you at the time.

[left outer, right inner]

Chilli Monster

WRT your 2nd point, if the flight plan was filed by a parent unit such as heathrow FBU, then the VFR flight plan would be sent to the relevant FIR's too such as london, scottish or french, so that they would have details too. Probably for search and rescue purposes in case the worst happens

LORI

[FlyingForFun]

Chilli (or anyone else, for that matter),

Where could I find a definitive list of all the types of flight (VFR/IFR, different types of airspace, crossing national/international FIR boundaries, etc), and whether I need a) a pre-filed flight-plan, b) an abbreviated flight-plan over the r/t, or c) none of the above?

(Noting, of course, that I can always file a flight plan for any flight. What I'm looking for is the minimum legal requirements. And apoligies if I've got the terminology wrong, too!)

FFF
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[Chilli Monster]

FFF

UK AIP states when it's recommended to file and when it's mandatory to file. All the details are in there but, in a nutshell for non-commercial ops:

Formally filed (CA48 flight plan): Any flight crossing an international FIR boundary (So London - Scottish doesn't count) and any IFR flight joining airways

Abbreviated over the R/T: Request to cross or enter CTR's and CTA's (East Mid's, Solent and the like). Departing these places you'll have to book out by phone - that fulfils the flight plan requirement.

None required: Anything else.

There are additional requirements for aircraft above 5700kg but they're not relevant here - all are listed in the AIP though.

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks, Chilli! :ok:

FFF
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[1261]

Be a bit careful with this; ATSUs around the country interpret the rules (under UK AIP ENR 1.10) in very different ways. What CM has said above is correct - but I can tell you from experience that many people don't see it that way!

[mark147]

Thanks for the replies.

Be a bit careful with this; ATSUs around the country interpret the rules (under UK AIP ENR 1.10) in very different ways. What CM has said above is correct - but I can tell you from experience that many people don't see it that way!Which people would that be, and how do they see it?

Mark

[Chilli Monster]

1261

I'm intrigued - care to expand a little?

[chiglet]

"Personally"
Any VFR or "LowLevel" IFR Fpl filed at Manch [when I am on duty in FPRS] WILL be sent to all relevant ATSUs. I do this because I think that it's a"safety" matter. The AIP disagrees:( .
As an aside, whilst it is mandatory to file VFR crossing an International Bdy, filling in the SPL [Supplementary plan] is "not a requirement" :confused:
If this is so, then how the chuff are we [ATC] expected to take "Overdue Action"?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Spitoon]

chiggy, you just pass on whatever info the pilot has chosen to leave for this purpose!

[1261]

I'm not going to start naming names. :)

It's all down to individuals'/organizations' understanding of that last paragraph (1.5.1) about booking out. Under 1.4.2(d) you need to file a flight plan, regardless of whether your flight is IFR or VFR.

Let's say you want to leave the zone IFR for a local flight and come back VFR. Most aerodromes will permit VFR aircraft to "book out" under 1.2.2(c). Many will not permit IFR "book outs" in this manner.

Why? You tell me. That paragraph makes no distinction between IFR and VFR, but it is fairly common for a request for IFR "book out" to be refused. I suspect that this is mainly down to the misuse of that term - 1.5.1 says "....when there is no necessity to file a flight plan..."; so when you call the tower to pass your details (from an aerodrome inside controlled airspace), are you really "booking out" or just passing the required details (i.e. an abbreviated FLIGHT PLAN) to allow a clearance to be issued??

Transits shouldn't be a problem - but I have heard some of my colleagues getting quite hot under the collar on the arrival/departure issue.

[Chilli Monster]

1261

Sounds to me like said colleagues are so far up their own behinds they need a lesson in the main reason we are there - to provide a service - and not in being too wrapped up in semantics.

Abbreviated flight plan / book out IFR - who gives a wotsit what the customer on the end of the phone calls it - just take the details and process them!

[Timothy]

May I take the opportunity of asking a very specific question?

On Sunday I shall be be leaving Genova VFR flying to central France.

Because of the juxtaposition of the Alps and Nice's extensive airspace I might not be able to get through the CTR/CTA in VMC.

Will I be able to call Nice and get an IFR transit without having filed a formal IFR FPL?

This is a very different question to the original, which applied to UK airspace, which is much more relaxed about unplanned IFR.

Oh, and before anyone asks why not just file IFR from departure, it's because all the low level airways in that area are "unplanable", a real Eurocontrol/CFMU/French/Italian nonsense.

Timothy

[1261]

Chilli, I couldn't agree more! However, I'd like to add a waiver that I meant "colleagues" in the very general sense - before some people start trying to figure out who I was talking about.....

Alas, I actually find things like this quite useful. As a relatively inexperienced controller, it gives me a chance to get the books out and actually look at what they say rather than taking people's word for everything!!

[2Donkeys]

Timothy asks:

Will I be able to call Nice and get an IFR transit without having filed a formal IFR FPL?

The French are not huge fans of pop-up IFR clearances, but will grant them should the circumstances permit. A call to Nice Info asking for such an IFR clearance will often entail you filing an airborne flightplan in the time honoured tradition.

The real answer is that whether you get a clearance at all, and how much of a song-and-dance act you are put through to get the clearance is very much down to individual controller discretion.

The vexed question of whether or not a Eurocontrol bill then arrives (based on the entire time spent in the French FIR as per Eurocontrol rules), will also be based on how formally your request is dealt with.

2D