View Full Version : Ryanair Cost-cutting?

11th Apr 2004, 08:56
From today's Sunday Times:

THE Ryanair boss Michael O’Leary is attempting to persuade staff to accept a pay freeze as part of a cost-cutting drive.
Michael Cawley, deputy chief executive, said the airline was considering a pay freeze to be agreed this month. It would apply to all employees, including senior management, and save the airline between €3m and €4m a year, he said.

“We have just had a profit warning and we are looking at the possibility of recording the first (quarterly) loss in the company’s history,” said Cawley.

O’Leary is understood to have met pilots based at Stansted and Dublin to outline his latest cost-cutting plans. Other moves under consideration include making pilots pay for their own annual medical check-ups, their aviation licence renewal fees, uniforms and changes to pension contributions.

The measures would be introduced only if the company did not introduce a pay freeze, Cawley said.

Ryanair is this week expected to announce it has agreed a deal that will allow it to remain at Charleroi, its Belgian base. The airport will make Ryanair’s terms of business — which were ruled illegal by the European Commission — available to all airlines.

11th Apr 2004, 09:27
How much money does Ryanair actually need? When all its massive profits have been taken into consideration why does it still feel the need to deny its employees a decent and consistent salary. I understand its doing everything in its powers to make airfares cheaper for the punter, but why should that ethic be at the cost of staff wages.???:( :* :{ :sad: :eek:

11th Apr 2004, 09:35
When 1.5 years ago I was considering joining them, in the introductory chat, we were told that the company has 1bn Euros put aside for any eventuality, like fighting some airline on the same route, or taking someone to court or anything they may need it for.
So why not dip into this reserve and keep your workforce RYR?
I don't think the management are bright enough to think like that, but then which airline's management are?

Jet A1
11th Apr 2004, 10:11
The crew's are working harder and harder that goes for both Flight and Cabin crew and they don't want to give them some credit and give them a pay increase. It's not their fault O'Leary cocked up by getting back handers for flying to subsidised airports and now my they suffer -- Typical Ryanair really !

Artificial Horizon
11th Apr 2004, 11:33
Pilot's may have to pay for there own medicals, licence renewals and uniforms. Honestly what the **** is this industry coming to.:{

11th Apr 2004, 11:38
From www.ryanair.com:

Financial results released in June (03) shows record traffic and profit growth for the year (end 31 Mar’03). Passenger traffic for the year grew by 42% to 15.7m as average load factors increased from 81% to 84%, primarily due to a 6% reduction in average fares. Total revenues in the year rose by 35%, however operating costs rose at a slower rate by 26%. Net Profit increased by 59% to €239.4m.

Now I may be simple, but if a pay freeze would save Mo'L €3-4m, wouldn't an extra €0.19-€0.26 per passenger achieve much the same? Without dealing the hard-working crews such a kick in the slats as he's suggesting?

11th Apr 2004, 12:34
I'd prefer to leave personalities out of this debate and focus instead upon economics.


Please answer all questions. Time allowed 30 minutes

1. €3-4m cost savings and 15.7m passengers per year =

A. A pay freeze.
B. Buy your own uniforms and Class 1 medical revalidations.
C. Less than €0.50 extra per passenger ticket.
D. Any of the above

Extra paper may be provided. At €1 per sheet.

People are Mo'L's primary (and priceless) asset. Pi$$ them off and there'd be no airline.

11th Apr 2004, 12:40
"O'Leary has ruled out any negotiations with trade unions"
It would seem BALPA and IALPA have no intention of getting involved anyway. They too must fear the slush fund being used against them.

We are all watching the future of aviation unfold here folks, no one is safe if O'Leary continues unchallenged.


Faire d'income
11th Apr 2004, 12:42
I understand its doing everything in its powers to make airfares cheaper for the punter,

Does the Tooth Fairy still visit you? :O

11th Apr 2004, 13:00
The beginning of the end.........................................?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for LCCs that genuinely model themselves on Southwest, Jetblue, or better and I appreciate their contribution in bringing fares down to realistic levels. However, I have no time or respect for any company (airline or other) which treats its customers with utter contempt.

11th Apr 2004, 13:00
It's the beginning of the end...

11th Apr 2004, 13:24
the end of the beginning!

This all due to zero pilot representation. Bound to happen!
How can the lonely ryanair pilot stand up to this arrogant dictator.?

Where have all your subs gone guys ?
Those of you that were stupid enough to join respective associations i mean.


11th Apr 2004, 14:42
Are the Ryanair guys toothless or what? Stand up for yourselves. Give this guy an inch and he'll take a mile. I can't believe people allow themselves to be treated like this. Why?

11th Apr 2004, 15:14
I would just simply fail to pay for anything this idiot comes up with next. Anyone accepting his future terms must be examined upstairs.
Just grounding his airplanes for one day may make him see sense.

11th Apr 2004, 16:25
All it takes is for confidence in this company to slip for the whole house of cards to fall. The people working there have no respect for themselves. It's better to starve than to fill O Leary's pockets. Believe me guys thats what you are doing! When it all goes pear shaped he will be the one retiring with millions made by your 6 sector days.

11th Apr 2004, 17:24
Ther is another irish company that doesnt yet provide a uniform for its flightdeck (even though its been going for a year), you have to pay for your own medical renewals, and probably licence renewals when the time comes.

Must be something in the water !!!!

the egg man
11th Apr 2004, 18:06
i am suprised he has not thought of a single man cockpit as yet ,that would save lots more money or is it yet to come?
the mind boggles, the future is not working for ryanair.

11th Apr 2004, 18:57
You all deserve it
YOU = pilots and cabin crew in Ryanair
you have permitted to happen long time ago when accepted to pay for you type rating and so on..........

This company and other like this are currently ruining the aviation market, years of cooperation between countries, years of aviation employee fights.

And now you realize what you have caused and ............. cry

best of luck

12th Apr 2004, 01:33
you can't just lie down and roll over guys and gals theres' got to be more gusto to your voice at this stage than waiting for the next guy to speak and then live in fear of the repercusions until the walls cave in for want of some solidarity???

but it easy from our side of the fence

stuck here looking in

they are so afraid they refuse to post !!

they're afraid to post !!!

who can blame them

this is just a stepping stone to future frustration and self-loathing

The rest of us are next

we're all screwed !!


Silver Tongued Cavalier
12th Apr 2004, 01:58
Have heard that all crew water/tea etc is to be removed off the aircraft as well.

When O'Leary finished his speel at the Stansted meeting, the pilots responded by GIVING HIM A ROUND OF APPLAUSE!!!!???

OK, the first guy who started clapping was management and all the guys near him were all Dutch Ryanair new guys, obviously keen to impress no doubt!!!

The Dublin meeting was considerably less well received.

All I can say is: Get IALPA and BALPA representation quick and 100% unity or you're finished as a career. Good Luck.

12th Apr 2004, 08:03
I notice that there have not been many threads from the pilots concerned. Either they are too tired, hungry and dehydrated or can't speak English!

Mach Buffet
12th Apr 2004, 09:37
In all the outfits I've ever worked in I've found a sense of unity within the pilot body with the sole exception of Ryanair.

I have never known such an attitude of self interest to prevale anywhere - inside or outside aviation. In FR we even have a culture of running up to management to tell tales about other crewmembers, with the obvious intent of clearing out those above you for an faster command, since that is the only way to get a payrise.

In the past we've had attempts at getting unionised, but there is always someone else who will do your job for less money. The Chalerois base being a classic case.

Each year as new pilots join, the contract gets worse - less money all the time.

The sooner more pilots realise that this is why trade unions were ever invented, then perhaps there might be a chance of stopping the rot.

Say Mach Number
12th Apr 2004, 09:57
As a Captain in Ryanair and I agree whole heartedly with all the sentiments. Its called taking the p**s of the highest order by the management. 5 Year Agreement effectively thrown out by MOL and with everything else that is being removed we are on the slippery slope.

I do hope we the pilots can get ourselves organised and stick it up em!

Some may say why not leave well here we have our dilemma-

Although I hesitate to lower the tone by talking salaries I am afraid I have to live in the real world.

At present as a Line Captain I can expect to take home approx £5000 in my dirty mit every month.

To leave and join Virgin, BY, MON etc I have to go back as an FO, for say 5 or 6 years or more) on perhaps £3000 net a month(a guess on my part)

Reality is some of the niceties in these places aint worth £2000 a month to me.

Ok join Easy or Channex get a DE Command. Its no better there from what I hear and I get more money and more time off where I am.

Money is not my God but I have to be real! Its a dilemma that many of us face.

12th Apr 2004, 10:26
Say Mach is right, the years of parental care from a company and life long loyalty by an employee have long gone. We all have to maximise our personal assets, sad I know, but true.

12th Apr 2004, 10:38
I was offered a position with FR and on advice received from friends already there I knocked it back. Its probably turning out to be one of my better decisions. I have just taken up a DE command with another airline and am very happy so far.

It would only take a few days of refusing discretion, flying sensible (ie slower) descent/approach profiles and taxying at a more sedate pace to give MoL a gentle reminder. But it would take all of you together....And no I am not an orange agent!

Whatever, I wish you all well but in this industry if you want to be treated fairly you will have to make it happen. Things aren't going to get better on their own and moaning on PPrune aint gonna change anything.

trainer too 2
12th Apr 2004, 12:23
Ok join Easy or Channex get a DE Command. Its no better there from what I hear and I get more money and more time off where I am. Cannot judge Easy but understand that the Channex / Jet2 outfit is the place to be for any DE Capt 737 at the moment! A fellow RYR Capt went a few months ago and was very impressed, only downside is a base in LBA.. But hey he is enjoying work again... :ok:

12th Apr 2004, 21:18
A base at LBA is actually one of the upsides. Aah, God's own country.

13th Apr 2004, 14:34
Hey - all the posters on this thread must be RYR underpaid employees. :(

None of them has shelled out even $25 or so for a minimum "Personal Title" to help Danny fund the board!

Come on guys!!!

(and I'm not "Nigel" - note the "ExSimGuy" ;) when I sit down I don't have to remove wallet from back pocket to get comfy)

14th Apr 2004, 07:38
I work for FR and imho it's alright.

All the the so called benifits and protection I thought I had with my previous major carrier were worth diddly squat when push came to shove.

With FR you get what it says on the tin. Good money, stable roster, do your job and you get left alone.

As with all employment (not just aviation) you make your own choices to suit yourself. Fr suits me but not everyone.

Mach Buffet
14th Apr 2004, 08:49
Eh Ringo,

Will you be all right when MO'L never gives you a payrise, takes away pension contributions, has you pay for your license, uniform the water you drink?

My guess is that you are probably in the right hand seat and the only payrise you will ever see is by moving to the left hand seat. So it's ok if all those guys in the left seat are unhappy and go elsewhere, cos that'll mean getting the payrise sooner.

Whatever MO'L has, it's a bunch of self interested individuals that are prepared to work for less that the guy beside him. Each year he will throw fewer and fewer crumbs onto the floor, and there will always be no shortage of guys scurrying up to take them. He knows that, and that's what turning this place from a good place to work, with good money into one of the lowest paying outfits, with no working conditions, albeit slowly.

14th Apr 2004, 08:59
If you all have a problem with Ryanair, leave or better still why did you join in the first place? For every pilot flying there is about 10 wanabees who would sell their own soul for a job flying a 738 around Europe!

So make up our mind, job or no job!?

Wing Commander Fowler
14th Apr 2004, 10:40
Aah.....! The sweet smell of cameraderie! I sense a bun fight coming on... hehe! :p

14th Apr 2004, 11:33
Airbourne -

You're obviously a wannabe to have come out with that statement. So i checked your profile and see you work in "Event Management". Persumably you would be more than happy to see your boss renege on deals and cut back on whatever benefits you have. And I assure you, from personal knowledge, there are plenty of young lads/ladies who would sell their soul to work in Event Management/PR/Marketing etc if you were to not like the new situation.
If you ever get a job flying, you will look back on your post, cringe and wonder how you could ever write such drivel.

14th Apr 2004, 12:16
Sad, but Airbourne's right, now if pilot's ever become a scarce commodity once more, the boot will be on the other foot. Supply and demand.

14th Apr 2004, 12:57
In the UK subsidiary of an American company I once worked for we had monthly meetings with a very senior manager (the most senior in town on the day). You did not have to go, but if you did you could ask anything you wanted.

One of the barrack room lawyers said that he had not had a rise for eighteen months, and asked for a formal statement on the company's remuneration policy. He was told:

'The company remuneration policy is to pay you identically what it costs to keep you, for as long as we need you, and nothing thereafter.'

However you dress it up, this is the simple, unvarnished, truth. Ryanair just don't bother with the bullshit that normally accompanies this kind of discussion. In my experience you are more likely to have a future with a ruthless management that knows where it is going than with a bunch of nice chaps who don't.

Which has the better job security right now: BA (or Sabena, or Swiss, or United, or.........) or Ryanair? He must be doing something right!

I'm not banging a drum for Ryanair: personally, I find their product offering deeply unappealing. But the figures would suggest I am in the minority.

14th Apr 2004, 14:07
The simple fact is that a company which can boast the numbers of passengers which RyanAir claim in their own website can easily afford the €3-4 million which they claim they need to save...

Just stop offering barking mad fares and join the grown up world. There would still be sufficient demand elasticity were Mo'L to add €1 to each and every ticket sold.

14th Apr 2004, 16:11
Or SLF3 you could do it the SOUTHWEST way:

Low but realistic fares
Treat your customers with respect
Treat your personnel with respect
And still enjoy 30+ years of profitability

Mol's method of management will be his and his company's eventual downfall, which imho is not all that far away.

Faire d'income
14th Apr 2004, 18:42
O'Leary pays €14 in personal tax for year (http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2003/10/31/story119590.asp)

I don't think this has anything to do with FR saving a few quid. :yuk:

14th Apr 2004, 19:41
Sorry guys - it’s not fun anymore.

The cabin crew is unhappy, the pilots are unhappy - I guess it's only the new hires, who are smiling these days....but for how long.

In times when the slippery road gets too slippery, management needs the employees to back them up. Unfortunately nobody wants to back MOL anymore. Nobody laughs at his jokes, his F*** BA etc...

The scary things is; What happens if the pilots don't give MOL what he wants from them - he certainly just give them less and less...

But will the EU save MOL. Lots of Polish and former eastern pilots are waiting in the shadows - will they join? I guess so.....

15th Apr 2004, 08:49

No, Im not a wanabee. I fly for fun! I stand by my statement. You all know what Ryanair is like. They have been cutting back since MOL came on board, so you have no one to blame except yourself. Anyone who took the decision to join Ryanair had to be prepared for this. It was only a matter of time! Everyone moaned like hell when they introduced the £50 application fee with comments like 'its not fair' 'wont work' 'Im a professional, im not paying that'. What happened? Pilots still continue to pay it because they want a job with a bunch of tight fisted bastards!

Yes, there are total rip off merchants in my business as there is in any business, but I made the decision to stay away from those types. We all have choices. Dont make a bad one and start moaning about it in public.

If you ever get a real good flying job, you will look back and wonder how you made such a bullshit statement!

Say Mach Number
15th Apr 2004, 09:13
Airbourne: Wake up and get in the real world. You ask why not leave - see my previous response in this thread - thats why!

Why did I join in the first place because 5 1/2 years ago I was flying turbo props and FR offered me a shiny(not so shiny now) 737-200 job which has led to a 737-800 Command - thats why!

Back then it was about flying not politics. I didnt even know who was in charge of the company when i joined. Why should I!

However that was along time ago and I try and remember those days before having a rant. But this is my career and my livlihood and I am trying to protect it the best I can.

You make it sound oh so easy "just leave" you say.

What BULLS**T grow up!

15th Apr 2004, 10:56
Lets not forget the safety issue here. The only people who FR are interested in now are people with 300hrs on a seneca who will pay for their own rating. Put that guy in the flightdeck with a captain with 3500hrs and you have serious lack of experience. In CRM terms it is called cockpit gradient. Anyway in my airline the captain alone must have at least twice the hours of a whole FR flightdeck. I know who I feel safer with!! I think the cliche is "It's only a matter of time". :ouch:

Wing Commander Fowler
15th Apr 2004, 11:30
In CRM terms it is called cockpit gradient

Now THAT's [email protected]....... what you describe is a very SHALLOW gradient and in any case has nothing whatsoever to do with safety...... Think about it!!

AND since you brought the subject up - a bit of research into the matter will (I'm fairly sure) reveal to you that many apparently very experienced guys have had incidents so the fact that .....
Anyway in my airline the captain alone must have at least twice the hours of a whole FR flightdeck is:

A - sad


B - not neccessarily relevant NOR true since Ryanair DO have some rather experienced guys indeed - both in the right and the wrong seat hehe....... :E

15th Apr 2004, 13:06
It's always the people who say CRM is crap who need it most! If only you would think before opening your mouth. It's the first time I heard experience had no connection with safety. I think you need to do some research. I rest my case.

Wing Commander Fowler
15th Apr 2004, 13:20
vfenext - I most certainly did NOT say CRM is crap.....

I suggest you read both of our posts again S L O W L Y and you may understand better what we both have said!

If english is not your naked tongue you are forgiven but I suggest you don't make this personal.....

15th Apr 2004, 14:10
Naked tongue???? It seems you type as fast as you think. A real triumph for FR training.

Wee Weasley Welshman
15th Apr 2004, 14:21
Its usually the people who think CRM in some way applies to anonymous web based discussion forums who have not yet grasped that the concept is something beyond being nice to people.



Wing Commander Fowler
15th Apr 2004, 15:04
Hmm... yes I meant "native" of course - thank you for pointing it out with such grace!

My opinion and advice to you still stands, however, and if you re-read your post and think a little harder you'll maybe see where I'm coming from. I can but hope!

15th Apr 2004, 15:49
It seems that we are forgetting the real issue here - what is happening with good old RYR. Are we all going to go on contract or?

Wing Commander Fowler
15th Apr 2004, 16:18
Scandi - this has been coming for a while IMHO. The employment of SO MANY contractors could only point one way......

15th Apr 2004, 17:33
I have definetely had fun in Ryanair the last years, and I remember not long ago the fact that we were all proud of being members of the flight team. I never pay much attention to what outsiders say about my employer because I know what goes on in Ryanair. The problem I see with the MOL thinking is this: Cut our agreed payrise because maybe as he says we will not mak a profit in the current fiscal year. I never saw anyone from management or indeed from the pilot body asking for an extra increase in o,ur salaries when we made record profits the last three years. No one said we were expecting to make less so here is the rest to share. If we do not share in the up I do not see we should share on the way down. May be MOL should give back to the company the extra amount he made the last three yerars from his stock he sold and then I would consider joining the rest in pay freezes. I do not sell tickets, and I do not do yield management. I fly planes from a to b safely and efficiently.
The argument about contractors keeping the company flying while the pilot body goes on strike is not valid. As everything in RYR is on the limits, so six days later noone would be flying. Thank god to JARs we cannot hire guys fast enough and do training and even if thirty percent did not fly it would be enough to create chaos.
The problem is that our cabin crew have more balls than us up front, so I have to keep hoping that they go out and maybe we will gain something. Our comradery stops at the pub
When we do wake up and see in the not so far future all the cheaper pilots coming in and taking our jobs it will be a rude awakening.
The point of having low fares and bad yields is because the product is crap. Only if you drop the price will people fly with us, and it is a vicious cycle drop the prices, drop the standards, drop the standards lose more good passengers, drop the prices further. Maybe if the smart guys in the office see this and start offering a value for money people will be willing to fly with us again for a higher price. Untill this happens it will not get better IMHO

Say Mach Number
15th Apr 2004, 19:30
Vfenext quote "its only a matter of time". As a 7000hr Captain in Ryanair I think that is the most insulting and arrogant thing I have read about ME. And assuming you are a professional that is about as unprofessional as is possible to be!

What gives you the right to offer a comment about another airline which clearly you have no knowledge.

Yes we have low time cadet pilots and have flown with my fair share. Yes they have their limits but didn't we all when we started.

Oh I forgot BA, BY, easy, and about every other airline i can think off all take cadets in one form or another. So I assume you are now insulting our training department.

Ryanairs safety record is exemplary and that is a fact and considering the amount of sectors we do, the crappy airports we go to and the amount of hours we do. It is a record quite frankly I am proud of.

I think the clithe is "What an a**hole!"

Faire d'income
15th Apr 2004, 20:38
These debates always go off on bizarre tangents and personal rants for some reason. How did experience and cockpit gradient become part of this thread?

I would be far more concerned at the public targetting of a group charged with a huge legal safety responsibility. Modern airline management seem to think that morale among their pilots is irrelevant, and are quite happy to intimidate and bully them.

Only one thing ever stops that and it is not the IAA or CAA. They just sit idly by until the big disaster and then blame everyone else. :yuk:

15th Apr 2004, 21:20
If we do not share in the up I do not see we should share on the way down.

But what about all those free shares you got? Surely you benefitted by the massive surge in their value over the last few years? I know they're a bit down now...but didn't you think of selling some when they were at their peak?

O'Leary keeps telling the Irish media that the pilots in Ryanair own €150M in free shares and I've yet to see or hear a single FR pilot refute that assertion.

I reckon it works out at around €230K each!
What are you moaning about???

Wing Commander Fowler
15th Apr 2004, 21:30
Faire d'income - probably because some people just can't resist an opportunity to take a pop out of FR. Ignorance to some is bliss it seems..... :* Sorry, I shouldn't have taken the bate mate!

16th Apr 2004, 19:51
Hi Guys...

JohnPilot and the rest.. great comments - mayby we are getting somewhere afterall...

Why don't we RYR pilots get a private forum, like some of the other carriers. There will of course be some, who can't keep the information for them self -:mad: but I think we are in a good position.

I just love that comment from JohnPilot about sharing in ups and downs. We didn't ask for much during the ups - only did we ask for 4/4 insted of 5/3 - If I remember correctly, we were told, that the company didn't want to change anything in the ongoing 5 year agreement????

18th Apr 2004, 18:15
I expect all the non FR guys reading this will have noted the continuing wall of silence from the Ryan'ers regarding their share holdings.

Yes, get your own forum so the rest of us can be spared the belated, and apparantly exagerated whining.

PS While you're at it...get off your asses and get unionised too. Action speaks louder than words.:mad:

18th Apr 2004, 20:06
Idunno - a quick check of the Ryanair annual report (Note 13)reveals they are OPTIONS and not shares. Therefore can only be exercised subject to various rules which interestingly enough can be amended (presumably by the trustees). The options became exercisable during 2003 although only 100,000 were cashed in during that financial year. Could be that the staff (incl senior mgt) were waiting to see if the share price went through the roof OR perhaps the rules do not allow the the shares to be exercised so easily. Just a thought for you.....

18th Apr 2004, 22:06
Hi all
Once upon a time, those shares were given free to all employees and quite a few did well out of them.More luck to them, too, because those shares made up for the disparity in conditions compared with those enjoyed by flight deck crews (and the rest of the staff) in other companies.
The rumour on the ramp is that the staff are on a go-slow and that the FR fuel bill is set to rise accordingly.

18th Apr 2004, 23:22
those shares made up for the disparity in conditions compared with those enjoyed by flight deck crews (and the rest of the staff) in other companies.

Disparity? Only in your favour guys! When FR started up the take-home salary was double what I was making in a comparable post with an established airline, and that was after being there for over 10 years. And wannabes were joining FR and getting jet commands in 12 to 24 months...the kind of promotion that took a decade elsewhere.

As I recall, the shares were used to buy you off when O'Leary heard mutterings about a union. The pilots who were already in situ took the bribe, dropped the union talk quick time, and abandoned those who had raised the union banner, standing by in shameful silence as the local group leader was publicly executed by O'Leary.
Those who accepted the shares bribery sold out the future of every pilot who joined afterward.

The options became exercisable during 2003 although only 100,000 were cashed in during that financial year. Could be that the staff (incl senior mgt) were waiting to see if the share price went through the roof...

Hmmm...perhaps they didn't feel they needed the money, because they were doing just fine on the generous salary already? Or perhaps they were just being a bit too greedy?

....perhaps the rules do not allow the the shares to be exercised so easily.

Are you speaking from first hand knowledge or just guessing?

The FR pilots failure to stand up to O'Leary in the past has dragged them down and severely undermined the value of our profession. If they had formed a union early on and stood firm we would see a completely different face on this industry today...one where the largest and most succesful low cost carrier had a strong pilot workforce that shared fully in the success of the company, and set a positive standard for other operators.
Instead they've set an example of greed and impotence to airline managements throughout europe.

Excuse me if I don't shed a tear now the chickens are coming home to roost.

19th Apr 2004, 07:17
Options not shares. We are given an option each year to buy shares at a fixed price in 5 years time. The options I have received in the last two years are priced above the current share price, so I am in the red on paper.Iif the share price doesn't improve they are worthless. One final point, the granting of options is based on a 25% improvement on profits year on year, this year the profit won't improve by 25%, so next year there probably won't be any options granted.

19th Apr 2004, 09:13
Actually it was an educated guess based on reading the notes to the financial statements. Granted I am an accountant by day wannabee ATPL studier by night so I have a head start in understanding what the jargon means :)

Wing Commander Fowler
20th Apr 2004, 10:30
Thank you for those kind words of support Coco....... FR crews are indeed Professional! :ok:

20th Apr 2004, 12:06
just curious, why has no one started, dare i say the word but some sort of union, or if not some sort of pilot body. i am not for a militant union. but surely something does need to be done, i think that MOL will dangly the carrot of a pay freeze or pay for own unifrom etc. but if there was some sort pilot body this would not have to be the case. i am not involved with aviation in europe, but this would effect every pilot world wide, if ceo,s see ryanair doing this, then i am sure they will try it themselves. LLC are now a fact of life everywhere so do not think that i am against ryanair, have flown with them and the product is not bad, considering the cost of the ticket, but paying for your own unifrom etc. surely this is taking it to far. as was said in a previous post it is not as if pilots and cabin crew received heaps of coin when the going was good was why except a pay freeze when things are not? :confused:

20th Apr 2004, 12:46
Och, .. would ye leave poor MO'L be, Hasne just paid €24m in PERSONAL tax into the Government coffers... he's a good lad !
(Better than some who fek off to Portugal to avoid paying, only to get stung there... har, har... !)

@20% tax rate, or even 40% you can work out his annual income, sure dose'nt he just have to make cut-backs to keep HIS living standards at a constant climb ! poor lamb....

20th Apr 2004, 21:50
I notice 'coconuts' is involved in the computer industry. Isn't this the Professional Pilot's Rumour Network?
There seem to be lots of failed/would be pilots passing judgement here pretending to be experts but are only involved in the industry when they buy a ticket and fill out their Jet Club log books with a signature from the guys up front.
Please keep your amateur views to the amateur sites and let the professionals get on with it!

21st Apr 2004, 07:08
Which airline are you with? Might be one to avoid in the future.....Guess you want wanabees and private flying disbanded to at the same time?

21st Apr 2004, 08:52
The thread is about FR costcutting and how it affects not just FR crews but the entire professional industry. Therefore idiotic comments from individuals with no inside knowledge who do not rely on their airline job to pay their mortgages should be kept to minimum! (Only my humble opinion).
PS You'd LOVE to get a job with my outfit but sorry, you can't with a PPL!

21st Apr 2004, 08:59
Which thread have you been reading? I could have sworn that it had degenerated into a FR bashing session and had benefitted by some non professional aviators providing balance and correcting some of the errors being posted. If correcting people is idiotic then sorry for that. I am sure your outfit is great...it was a certain crew member I was eluding to.

Mr Chips
21st Apr 2004, 09:44
Therefore idiotic comments from individuals with no inside knowledge who do not rely on their airline job to pay their mortgages should be kept to minimum!

Or passengers as they are sometimes known.

Its been a while since someone popped up with the "this site should be for real pilots only" rant.

Biggles Flies Undone
21st Apr 2004, 10:59
srjumbo - I've just had a quick squiz at your other 19 posts and see a common thread. You berate posters for their poor English, look down on non-professionals and generally behave like the kind of bloke I always avoid talking to in my local. I sincerely hope you leave that kind of attitude at home when you're on duty.

21st Apr 2004, 12:30
SR Jumbo, he's one for you to chew on ! Pilots are professionals who fly aircraft, that certainly doesn't qualify us to run an airline successfully.

22nd Apr 2004, 00:34


cat 3a
22nd Apr 2004, 07:54
about the shares

only pilots and cabin crew that have been with FR pre-1997
could cash their shares last year (when the price was up)

The majority of the pilots are from recent years with the expansion of the fleet i.e they can start exercising their options from 2004 and onwards

22nd Apr 2004, 08:48
Well a lot of things have been said over the last couple of weeks.

I just read in a Scandinavian news paper, that MOL is expecting a large turnover this year!!! (1.5 billion kr.).

I do not like the word; “strike” – but it comes to mind. The word was used frequently 4 years ago, when we were negotiating our famous 5 year agreement. Unfortunately we are missing a certain captain from Dublin these days.

Over the years strike, hasn’t been the best way of negotiation (Sabena), and it shall only be used as the last resort! But, if there is no negotiation and only a one way communication……

NIMBLE brings out a very interesting thought by saying; “THERE MUST BE A WILLIAM "O"WALLACE IN THER SOMEWHERE WHO CAN UNITE THE CLANS”….

I think that’s a brilliant idea.

We used to have a working ERC…..It is reduced to nearly nothing! No offence to the captain trying to do his job in the ERC, but we do not see any results – or am I blind?

I think the company by now should know that most of the workforces aren’t happy anymore. Most of my colleagues are looking for something else. Captains are applying for TRE/TRI positions just to be able to get another job – this is not the right way…

Wing Commander Fowler
22nd Apr 2004, 10:38
Is that William "O" Scandi I hear a calling.....? Hehe...... :E

22nd Apr 2004, 16:51
Hi Scandinavian.
Very fitting choice of heroic icons!
Have you seen the movie 'Braveheart'?
If you did, you'll remember what happened to William Wallace at the end...he was hanged drawn and quartered while the peasants he stood up for looked on in silence.

Does that remind you of what happened to that 'Dublin Captain'?

And you seriously think anyone else would put their neck on the block for a bunch of spineless self servers like that again?

Dream on.

23rd Apr 2004, 00:55
the way to go forward is getting as many people involved as possible. multyple groupings dealing with specific areas and all reporting to one commitee.spreading the risk and responsibility as such.this is what was put forward before and the management did nt like it one bit.


23rd Apr 2004, 07:39
Despite the humor, we are a lot who think that Nimble has got it right....

Nimble, I have just send you a private message...

The philosophy of the management should be, that to be a successful company, you must balance three crucial elements: Satisfied customers, satisfied employees and satisfied owners. If one of these elements fail, the company's long term success is in danger.

Wing Commander Fowler
24th Apr 2004, 09:00
Coco - don't give up on us (srjumbo clearly ain't from our town).


Red Snake
24th Apr 2004, 10:49
Just remember not all pilots post here. A large number of us love our jobs. The job I have now pays more than any job I've ever had and gives me the most time off. I may moan a bit when the alarm goes off again at 5 a.m., but I wouldn't swap it for anything. Well, may be a larger jet!

24th Apr 2004, 16:51
Red Snake, By getting up at 500 AM makes me think that you are the guy who lives in the parking lot in his mobile home.
In all reality Ryanair is a good job with its goods and its bads. I for one do not want to leave for the sand dunes as people have been doing lately. I like my job and I think it can get better without increasing costs to the company. The 4 on 4 off we discussed would not cost Ryanair anything and it would be a great way to attract and keep people. Alot of us here are not after more money "Though I would never say no to extra money given to me" but a better way of doing things.
Everyone expects us to live up to our end of the deal but then when the going gets tough we are always the "pilots" the "overpaid" ones. It is a free country and if anyone wants to be a pilot, please come on onboard. Any one can be MOL or Ray Webster for that matter. If you think you can do the job go for it. I do not see anyone complaining about their 500 million combined, yet alot of people complain about my 5500 a month. It cannot be the same salaries for everyone in a company or in the job markets. Doctors get paid more than pilots, pilots get paid more than office workers.
It should be apparant by now that only in union can we succeed, and just because MOL wants to do something to increase the share price does not mean that it is correct.
P.S. At present we are fighting to keep our contractualy agreed terms and conditions. We are not moaning about things that we would like to change, nor things that would be nice. We sat 5 years ago and agreed on a 5 year plan. MOL for had the picture and knew exactly what he was signing as he is an expert at this. All we are saying is live up to your word

25th Apr 2004, 22:31
Ryanair are modelled on the Southwest philosophy, yet the way they seem to treat their passengers & crews seem to fly right in the face of this.

Southwest are not always the cheapest on a route, and having spent two years in the Orlando area, I never saw anything like flights for $0.01 or whatever some of Ryanair's sales are like. But their service is well liked by business & leisure pax alike, by being fun, friendly & relaxed yet safe, secure & professional. Crews are not paid badly & there is an excellent work ethic there.

Ryanair don't seem to have followed this side of the Ryanair model. They don't have good relationships with their passengers or crews, but people are willing to say "you get what you pay for" and fly with them if the price is right.

Exactly what PEOPLExpress did. They also cut costs as much as they could, with poor relationships internally & externally, and it all fell apart after the boom. Unless FR improve their relationships a little bit, it could go the same way.

I don't dislike Ryanair. In fact, I use their flights a lot, and can't complain. Yes, you get less; luggage allowance, service, safety net when things go wrong ... but for the price I paid I'm prepared to support them!

Send Clowns
26th Apr 2004, 22:25

I think srjumbo is being rather unfair and petulant, not sticking to the conventions observed here that those not professional pilots are welcomed and in turn expected to be, as you are, open about their status.

On the subject of the thread, perhaps you are looking at this from the point of view of a passenger, who does not know what goes on inside an airline or the job pressures of a bonded pilot. It's very hard to leave a job in uncertain times, reducing income and having to repay a bond as well as damaging the future career :ooh:

I have no involvement in Ryanair, but I know people that do and I see their operations regularly. The managment have a terrible attitude to their crews; to tell a group of potential recruits that they are to be considered as "units" by the company, for making profit, and if they leave when the company has made its money they don't care (in less poite terms) is frankly apalling. This shows an attitude that seems to be causing the grievances shown in the thread here.

I know from my experience of operating from the same airport as Ryanair flights that although the crews mostly act in a very professional manner there is a huge amount of pressure being put on pilots from somewhere, breaking that professional demeanor on very rare occasions.

You seem to have a good experience of the front end: from what I hear Ryanair crews are professional and very competent. It is easy for the customer to be kept away from the horror that management can be in a company.

27th Apr 2004, 08:18
There is another LCA doing very similar things to its crews (same type, less money and worse rosters). The two companies seem to be competing not only for growth, staff and headlines, but also to see who can treat staff the worst and get away with it.

It's a difficult position for the crews; the unions (where present) seem unable to help, direct (well intentioned) contact with management leads to sanctions on the crews, and the lack of cohesive opposition allows things to get worse. The only viable option to these crews is to leave - but to where? Things are picking up, but there are not that many places available out there, and these pilots have financial (and often geographical) commitments.

Maybe, when low morale and fatigue combine, a high sick rate will get their attention. However, at RYA's main competitor, this was just regarded as laziness, and nothing has changed in the comany's culture. The situation is catching up with them though, as they are having trouble recruiting crew and just as much trouble retaining them (I understand that 150 pilots left last year, and that they are 250 short for this summer season).

Whatever the solution, I hope it comes soon, as these 2 companies are driving down standards accross the whole industry year after year.

6th May 2004, 16:21
Ryanair abandons pay freeze plan

details here


I suppose 3% is better than a freeze.

Rocket Ron
6th May 2004, 17:19
Whippersnapper easyJet are not "short of 250 pilots for the summer season".

6th May 2004, 21:23
................neither did 150 pilots leave last year.

What direct contact lead to sanctions?

You should get a job with the Daily Mirror!

Brookmans Park
7th May 2004, 16:27
the Ryanair 3% pay rise with the associated loss of payment for medicals together with having to have medicals on days off and the destruction of the loss of licence and pension schemes is in fact a major pay cut for the pilots, especially those at or approaching 50 years of age. The rest of the company get a nice simple 3% rise, whilst those that MOL identified as being directly responsible for the company's excellent punctuality record are beining penalised with at least a 5% PAYCUT in net terms



ryanair was a nice company to work foruntil about 2 years ago but NO MORE

8th May 2004, 00:06

Partial reprieve
Ryanair abandons pay freeze plan...

Ryanair abandons pay freeze plan...
Pilots abandon union plan....
Nice work MOL....

cat 3a
8th May 2004, 09:31
well said Brookmans Park

MOL gives with one hand what the staff are entitle anyway and takes with the other twice as much.

The worst thing is that the paycuts (pension, medicals etc) affect mostly the crews that have been with the company for years.

One gets the feeling that eventually his plan is to have mostly contract crews.......I wonder why?

..........another gem on the savings plan -

STN base pilots will have to D/H twice before SIM check so the company will save on car rentals (STN-DUB, DUB-EMA)


8th May 2004, 09:53
If we keep burning fuel and snagging aircraft like we have been for the last month he'll give in on the medical and pension issues as well.

I've heard the fuel bill for the last month is up 15% and the schedule in Dublin has been destroyed at least every second day.

Keep it up lads.

Wing Commander Fowler
9th May 2004, 14:16
Quote from the RTE piece -

The airline said today's move was not an indication of better times ahead, but a reward for 'continued productivity gains'.

Yeah right! Here we are about a month after the original plan was "proposed" and everything's all sweetness now? I don't think so!

Major climb down in the face of an adverse reaction from the employees! :(

9th May 2004, 17:09
very professional 737 !! nice way to treat your engineers (snagging aircraft that is)who do their best to keep the fleet safe!!

9th May 2004, 21:01
You're talking out of your arse. It would be unprofessional and unsafe NOT to snag the aircraft!