Question for female ATCOs

[angel_wings74]

Were any of you single mothers when you did your training at CATC? Was it a problem to find child care, and once you were qualified was it difficult working shifts?

Also finding suitable accommodation in the Bournemouth area on the training salary.

I put off applying to NATS for a long time because I'm on my own, now I've done the application and have been invited for selection tests.

If I make it to interview stage, I don't want to mess up because I'm worried about how I can look after my child and do the training at the same time, and then the job. My child is of school age now, so less of a problem now.

Any advice, experiences would be welcome.

Thanks

Angel wings

[niknak]

How about treating it like it was any other job?

In other words, "I earn £xxxxx, the child minder costs me £xxxx",

net salary - childminder costs = decision.

I'll openly admit that I don't approve of nanny's or child minders, but please don't think that I am being a sexist bigot, I have found to my own cost that it is very important that at least one parent stays with the children.
When I got married, I agreed with my wife that whoever earned the lower salary would look after the children,, for many years, my wife, who was streets ahead of me in terms of qualifications and career prospects, earnt more than me. When our 1st was born I had just qualified as an ATCO, and just equalled my wifes salary, she decided to stay at home, and I subsequently earnt nearly as much as she would have done.
A close call, and had she gone back to work and I had stayed at home, she'd probably be earning more than me and have far better pension prospects, but she valued family and time at home more than her career.

I am not judging you, in fact I openly applaud you for wanting to embark on a career that will take up so much of your "quality and family time", but please remember that money and the job aren't everything.

[flower]

I don't have children but know many female ATCOs who do, how many did when they went through college I couldn't possibly say but not that many.
You will need an enormous amount of support whilst going through both the college and initial competency training, the studying and tests will be hard work, so if you have family support I would take it rather than struggle through alone.
Don't let the amount of work you have to do at the early stage put you off as once competent it is an ideal profession to be in with children as shift work allows so much greater flexibility.

Men are not put off by the training and young children , don't let yourself be, just make sure you have a lot of help at home.

[sla]

Good luck with your application. I have just been invited to interview myself, so I'm afraid I have no experience of much to offer. I also have children, and it will be a big change for our family if I get in. I am very fortunate to have a supportive husband who will be caring for our children while I am training/working, so it's quite a different situation for me.

It will no doubt be very, very tough during training, but worth it in the end I am sure. Have a good think about how you will manage childcare, ready for when you go into an interview to show complete confidence in what you are doing. Any doubt about how you will manage childcare may be picked up on, so even if it isn't all sorted out, try to trick yourself that it is!

I hope this works out for you, if you can get through the training then the shift work will probably work out well for you to spend a good amount of time with your child and be very positive for both of you. Good Luck:)

[Bern Oulli]

The short answer to the question is "Yes". They are few and far between, but not unknown. I can't remember the details, and even if I could I don't think I would post them on this forum.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Hey NikNak, it's great you and your wife had a choice in the matter, ie. who would work and who wouldn't. Fantastic, I'm so happy for you. Fact of the matter is, Angel Wings doesn't have that luxury, so saying condascending crap like "I am not judging you" and "I'll openly admit I don't approve of nannies and child-minders", doesn't help her does it. All your post does is make her feel guilty for trying to pursue a rewarding career. Most people these days have to use child care, and mate, my son thanks to going to day care from 12 months through until school age, was more advanced and socially adept than all the other "well looked after" kids who'd spent their last 4 years at home with just mummy.

Angel wings, I am a single dad in the Middle East, working as an ATC, and I think the least of your problems are the training part of the job. I find the hardest part is night shifts, due to the fact their aren't too many childcare facilities open at 3am. So as a single ATC you will need a nanny, which while in the Middle East is very cheap, I can guess the UK is very much like Australia and pretty pricey. But as Holier than thou NikNak said, money isn't everything, so even if you are paying out a lot for a nanny, doing a rewarding job, may be worth paying out those costs. I think it is. And don't worry, as long as when you are with your child you love them and give them your undivided attention, a child can be much better off having other influences in their life, rather than just mummy or daddy.

[andrijander]

Hi there!

Well, not a female myself, not having children. However would like to wish you all the best. Having been through selection, training, etc. can tell you that it Is very time/energy demanding. However it pays off. Really: it does. Don't know how much time off or how the shift goes there in the UK but can't be very different from other units -not THAT different-. I know even for my personal life it was a sacrifice but I just can't explain shortly how much it pays off. The flexibility of the shifts -you can swap with companions if you want-, the amount of time off and,yes, the salary. I can think of a lot of jobs where you need to work more hours and geet paid less -in your case a problem as you would probably struggle to reach the end of the month paying a nanny and still spend less time with your child-.

So, in my opinion it'll be very hard if you try but if you can make it... what can I say.

PD: you have all my respect and admiration. If you go ahead I wish you the best of luck. Truly yours, A.

[angel_wings74]

AirNoServicesAustralia - You make me feel guilty for writing "question for female ATCOs" - it wasn't until afterwards that I thought there may be some single dads. I really admire you for bringing your child up on your own, a lot of dads wouldn't do it.

Niknak - I wasn't going to bother replying to you, but I feel guilty that I have to work, but how else do I pay for a home, clothes and food for my child. My ex-husband doesn't contribute, and I've been left with his debts.

When my child was born, I stayed at home, I'd given up all dreams of having a career in aviation because my husband didn't think it was right - even before our child was born. What I didn't expect was my husband not to support our new family, and spend his money on nights out with the boys - after which I was physically and mentally abused. I decided to get out.

I was lucky, I got a job a working in the ATC world but unfortunately it's only a temporary post, and it looks like it will end this year because of budgets. I'd love to stay here where I live at the moment, as my child lives in a safe enviroment and already speaks 4 languages. I want to have a happy home environment, and having a career that I enjoy can contribute to this. I am also at the upper age limit for NATS so it was a case of now or never - I don't want to look back on my life, and think if only if I done this..........

You only have one life - why not make the most of it?

Angel wings

[niknak]

Angel wings - it seems I've ruffled your feathers, I genuinely didn't mean to, it was just a perspective from someone who has raised kids on the breadline, and we've only just found our feet now that they're teenagers. If I caused you any offence, I unreservedly apologise.

Oz - I have the greatest respect for single dad's and the crap they have to put up with, in fact I've openly supported the UK movement for many years.
The condescending ****e you wrote was not only perfect ammo' for all the women who give single fathers such a hard time, but also contradictory. Go and work in an office earning £10K a year with £15K demands from the Child Support Agency, then you may have a vague idea of what the real world is all about.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

All the women who give single fathers a hard time????? I have only ever met women who respect what I do, and try and do. The real world?? Ok so working my first nightshift on 5 hours sleep and then getting home to stay up with my boys all day because I have used all my nanny hours already, and then back to work again with 3 hours sleep, only to stay up with the boys again. Mate, I know what the real world is, and trying to bring up 2 little boys on my own is very very real.

I'm really glad you support the "movement" (didn't even know there was one!), and I'm sure you and your wife did it tough, but if you think just because I am in a job earning decent money my life is easy, then think again. I choose to do this because my situation dictates I either have all or nothing with my kids, and while exhausting I wouldn't trade the close relationship I have developed with my boys for anything. So now, I wonder who out of the two of us has been condescending.

By the way I don't have demands from child support because if you didn't realise what I was writing my sons live with me full time, so am the one who recieves the child support.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

And by the way to the smart arse who posted about me being their hero (before the post was deleted). I am not being a hero, i was just trying to explain to someone who had been judgmental enough to say "I don't approve of nannys or child minders", and also that because I earn good money I don't know about the real world, that I do indeed live in the real world and do it tough like all parents do. I'm no different from all the other mums and dads on these forums who have to juggle shift work and kids. Just some of us need help from different forms of child care, and actually believe that the kids benefit from that care.

[yaffs]

hey angel!!
it will be tough - but no tougher than working in any other job while also raising kids on your own

in fact once you've done your training and are valid at your unit - then the benefits of working shifts as opposed to 9 - 5 are that you'll at least see your kids during the day time hours too!!!!! ( obviously there are downsides - not always having weekends off yatter yatter - but i'm sure you've thought of all that!)

and depending on the unit you go to - it is possible that you could do less nights and do day shifts - it depends on the other folk on your watch

almost certainly if you have no support from your (ex) husband then you'll prob have to get a live in something or other

sadly nats doesnt provide any form of creche facility - but there are are child vouchers that you can take in lieu of a bit of pay which you can then pay your child minder/nanny with

i wish you the very best of luck with your future whatever form it takes

and dont ever feel guilty for going to work - whatever your motive!!!! ( need or want i mean :-) )


(and yeah very helpful post - not - from you nik nak - nice that you had the luxury of choice - though i wonder if you wouldve been quite so pompous had you not had that - the sad fact of life is that parents dont always have that choice - and indeed some dont want to stay at home )

yaffs

[055166k]

NATS actively promotes and supports ATCO applications from mums, and have done for over a decade. They cite the flexible working hours and irregular non-standard shift pattern flexibility as positive benefits. The only judgements made on you should be whether or not you can do the job......and that seems pretty fair to me!

[workingatco]

You worry me !! And I am an ATCO with 40 years experience. You said...

"Ok so working my first nightshift on 5 hours sleep and then getting home to stay up with my boys all day because I have used all my nanny hours already, and then back to work again with 3 hours sleep, only to stay up with the boys again."

I am not impressed. I could have been on the aircraft which you were controlling and I don't think that you were either mentally alert or safe.

If you cannot organise your life better than that then go and work in an office or change your working/living arrangements to reflect the demands of being a professional ATCO.

[Scott Voigt]

Off subject a bit, but I found it strange that the "father" wasn't made to help take care of the children.. What a shame. In our State (Texas) they do enforce child payments and go after the folks who don't... In fact, I got to lock one up last week for failure to pay child support...

regards

Scott

[angel_wings74]

Hey Scott

If you want to come over here and lock him up for me - I'll pay for your flight!!!!

[SensibleATCO]

What is the point of this thread ??

You want to be an ATCO ? Just get on with it......like everyone else has to. Make your domestic arrangements accordingly.

What's the problem ?

SATCO

[fourthreethree]

SATCO
I thought it was fairly self explanatory, somebody facing a decision which will map out hers and her childs life is looking for help and advice from people who have been there and done it. If you look she is in Luxembourg so most likely she isnt at one with the child care facilities available in the uk. Your post is arrogant, ignorant and unhelpful.

Angelwings
I know of a few who have done it without too much difficulty but I am in Belgium which does have a very good childcare scheme. I hope you manage to find the balance, and I wish you every success:ok:

[flower]

Two very disappointing posts from people with some strange agenda. I bet these may be the same type of people who hate single mothers claiming benefits etc.
Trust me Angel wings they do not represent the majority who recognise the traditional nuclear family is no longer the norm.

I often am unable to sleep after and before night duties, likewise i have often gone to work before a morning shift with only about 3 hours sleep under my belt, simply because shift work screws up your body clock, am i then also to be criticised.

This seems more like a post in Jet blast or agony aunt with a couple of the replies to a genuine question from someone trying to do there very best for themselves and their child and seek out an excellent career in ATC.

[Scott Voigt]

Angle Wings;

I wish that he were in my jurisdiction... The last one was a $5000 cash bond (what he owed the child) to get out... <G> Love it when that happens...

regards

Scott

[Argus]

I'm with you.

For air traffic controllers to turn up for work with insufficient prior rest, irrespective of the reason, is dangerous in the extreme. Any employer who found staff in such a state AND allowed them to control aircraft could be exposing themselves to serious penalties. And that's not to mention any contributory negligence from the individuals concerned.

I invite those who have said that they do attend for work insufficiently rested for whatever reason to say where they work. Should there be an accident and if I or any of my professional colleagues act for relatives of victims, we can subpoena rosters, personnel details etc.

All of the above is not aimed at single parents, but ensuring that the safety of the travelling public is not compromised for any avoidable reason.

[cb9002]

In fact, I got to lock one up last week for failure to pay child support...

What, are you a sheriff on the weekends as well as an ATCO?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Argus and Working ATCO, get a grip! All controllers due to shift work and the short change around between shifts, along with in some cases family pressures, have less than the ideal amount of rest. This is also the case with pilots, and probably more so for them due to the added stresses of time zone changes and staying in hotels. What you guys don't seem to grasp is we are all professionals and we understand the responsibilty our jobs carry, and as such would never turn up to work unless we could safely discharge our duties. Everyone gets tired and fatigued on nightshifts, pilots and ATCOS alike, but we deal with it, and do our job well. So while being less rested than your average 9 to 5 worker, I for one have never gone to work when I wasn't 100% sure I could safely carry out my duties as an ATCO.

[flower]

I would never turn up for work unfit to do my duty.
The problems with shift work and lack of good sleep are formally recognised, hence the minimum rest periods between duties and a minimum number of hours off on rest days.

Find me an ATCO who tell you they have 8 hours sleep every night , I doubt you would find one.
We are professionals we are well aware of our responsibilities and we would not knowingly ever put anyone at risk.

Shift work and decent sleep do not go hand in hand.

[ILS 119.5]

I agree that you should not go to work fatigued. However the nature of an ATCO's shift pattern screws up the body clock and sometimes the ATCO concerned will be fatigued. But I'm sure he/she will know if they cannot perform properly. This also does not concern single parants only it concerns parants full stop. If the lady concerned who started this post wants to be an ATCO then go for it. It will be hard and you might not make it but if you do then your children will have a better life. Just think for a couple of years hard work and sacrifice your life will be better.

[Scott Voigt]

cb9002;

I am a PSO or Public Safety Officer part time. That means that I am cross trained as both a fire fighter and a police officer. I do it on my days off from ATC... Well, and when I am not doing work as the Union Safety Dweeb...

regards

Scott

[ILS 119.5]

Scott,
I flew with a guy three weeks ago and he drives a Ferarri and has his own building business. It seems to me that a lot of aviation professionals have something else to generate income. I suppose part of the industry.
ILS

[Argus]

I for one have never gone to work when I wasn't 100% sure I could safely carry out my duties as an ATCO.

and

"Ok so working my first nightshift on 5 hours sleep and then getting home to stay up with my boys all day because I have used all my nanny hours already, and then back to work again with 3 hours sleep..."

Mate, have you told your professional indemnity insurer?

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok how about every air traffic controller go and tell the insurance company that at some point they will be going to work with less sleep than they would like. Because the fact is you work shift work, you will be sleep deprived at some point. You deal with it. But I guess from the tone of your posts you are one of those perfect people who get a good 8 hours sleep before every shift. And probably wear a shirt and tie to work, and probably well rested still couldn't separate their asse cheeks.

[fourthreethree]

Argus

Take a reality check mate, shift work means that sometimes we as air trafficers sometimes go to work tired. Its a part of the job requirement that we have to be able to operate within the boundaries of our job at 100% even when tired. It's one of the reasons why its not the job for everybody, cos a lot of people are unable to do that. There is a yawning gap between doing that however and working in accordance with your tabloid headline seeking suggestions, no controller will work when either he himself or his supervisor deems him unfit to work, you are looking for problems which don't exist. Learn a bit more about the industry, maybe talk to some controllers, before letting accusations like that fly, its what I would have expected from someone supposedly in the legal trade.

[Argus]

It's a pity you have to resort to personal abuse, rather than debate the issues.

Both of you (and others) may well believe that you can operate at 100% efficiency with limited sleep. With respect, what you believe isn't the point here. What is relevant (and what I'm on about) is your actual performance under stress and while fatigued, measured objectively; how your performance (or lack thereof) might be a contributing factor in any incident or accident; and whether you attended for duty knowing that you were tired due lack of sleep, but attended nevertheless and controlled aircraft.

If, heaven forbid, there is ever a need to call you to account for your professional actions, it will be these points, rather than your protestations, that will make or break your career.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I won't be bothering to respond to your sanctimonious drivel again. I have personally been a controller for 10 years and have never had reason to answer to anyone for lack of performance as a controller. As 4-3-3 said, as professionals we perform under pressure, and under duress, and that is one of the qualities that sets us apart as controllers. We don't go to work each day worrying about insurers, or any other bottom feeding low lives, we only worry about keeping our traffic apart, and that is the way it will continue.

[ohyouareaone]

Angel,
at the end of a long day a calm and logical voice is a bit like winning the lottery - you have it made as long as you keep looking over you`re shoulder :somebody may yet nick it
and at the risk of being sexist a stress free voice is usually - not always - but usually female.
anyone out there remembers the lady in ABZ atc who retired in 94 ish and sounded like an angle ? acted like one as well.
too much info gone now

before you queue . . that should have been angel ! relax and keep the slaver off your shoes

If you can be bothered to read this I do apologise - what I said came from the heart. I was a father ( still am of course ) who found £525 a month 9yrs ago for daycare alone - 8am to 6.pm but no direct contact. 5 yrs later it reduced by £150 but the balance still had to be on the nail.
On Saturday last I put the young lady on to a flight at LHR after a week with me and she broke up - to the point where she isn`t supposed to phone me now.
It seems that times change, not always for the best, and not always best for the sprog it seems - but who can be sure ?
Angel just go for it the kids will know before you do if you got it right and they`ll know before you do if you didn`t - by definition you are not alone - you have support please use it

[Argus]

My dear chap, there you go again. You still don't get it. Why do you insist on trying sticking the boot in? Can't you find any rebuttal that is free from argumentum ad hominem? Perhaps your cantankerousness is brought on by lack of sleep!

Would you consent to a surgeon performing a life threatening operation on a member of your family or you when he/she has had only three hours sleep in the past 24?

Don't you think that aircrew and pax are entitled to assume that controllers who separate their aircraft from others are well and properly rested?

If you haven't already done so, I respectfully suggest you look carefully at your employment contract and your professional indemnity insurance. You should ensure that your employer and insurer will back you in the event of a claim based wholly or in part on the fact that you were negligent because you went to work insufficiently rested. In these circumstances, procrastination will be of little assistance to your defence.

In short, your attitude reminds me of an old flight safety poster from many years ago, from my time as a driver pointing Betty Windsor's airframes around the skies towards Ivanoski intruders to our way of life, at all times of the day and night OHMS (no penalty payments then):

Why call yourself fearless when D*ckhead will do

[ohyouareaone]

. . before I get the one in the throat
years ago on duty soon after 5am a crusty old skipper - latterly of Dan Air fame - arrived to make three in the crewroom. About 5 paces through the door the third member of our underated but still illustrious team piped up " the weather`s on the table and I chose a fuel figure for you . . "
Right that was two captains and the Ops guy . .
the mobile flight bag became immobile and then gradually met the floor. The crusty skipper`s face didn`t change expression or direction and then his mouth opened . . . " There are three types of people I have time for in aviation
licensed air traffic controllers
licensed engineers and
licensed pilots
all the rest are f***ing parasites ! "

and crm courses notwithstanding I still find that very difficult to argue with - b*lls on a trowel only balance three ways !

[flower]

Argus,
Instead of bleating on about our apparent lack of sleep have you any suggestions as to how to alleviate the problem ?

In all incidents I have read about in my 13 years in ATC not one of them can be attributed to sleep deprivation.

Double the number of ATCOs maybe ?
Half the amount of hours we work ?

[Argus]

How many ATCOs will admit to a lack of sleep? How long is a piece of string? It's tantramount to asking a client to say' yes, I did it'. No competent defence lawyer will ask that question because it limits the defences available at a future trial.

The remedy is in your hands. Make sure you attend for work properly rested - and I suggest that means to the proverbial person on the Clapham Omnibus or the Bondi Tram, more than three hours on the pillow. After all, being responsible is what separates professionals from the pack. Don't you think the travelling public expects anything less?

And if that means reducing night shift hours and/or increasing staff, then you or your union/staff association should say so now, rather than attempting to link it to your next pay rise!

[flower]

I have never gone to bed just 3 hours before a shift, I give myself at least the opportunity for 6/7 hours sleep. But as has been said to you time and time again, are body clocks are up the spout due the fact we work around the clock, so I may well go to bed giving myself the opportunity to have 10 hours sleep it doesn't mean I am going to get it.

Quite frankly I couldn't give a damn what the man on the Clapham omnibus says, I know when I'm on duty I am alert and able to give it my all.

Armchair critics should try it for themselves

[Argus]

Your professionalism is commendable.

Unfortunately, judging from what some of your colleagues say on this thread, it's not shared by others.

And air traffickers don't have a monopoly on the effects of shift work.

I don't doubt for a moment that you are alert and give it your all when at work. From what you say, you properly prepare yourself for work.

My criticism is directed at those who don't, yet attempt to argue otherwise.

And, I have tried it ... many years ago during the Cold War!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Your comparison to a surgeon having a lack of sleep was a very poor choice. Resident doctors in Accident and Emergency rooms all over the world make life and death decisions every night, on if they are lucky 3 hours sleep a night. It is their lot in life, they are professionals and they deal with it. I honestly don't give a toss what insurance coverage or whatever it is called I have, I don't even know if I have any over here in the Middle East. As I said I don't really care, I think insurance companys and lawyers are parasites, and have no time for them. In my ten years I have only seen one controller need to call on loss of liscence insurance, when I have worked with thousands of controllers all paying exhorbatant premiums. I have faith in the fact that I do a good job and my constant checks by my supervisors tell me that I do a good job. You can judge me all you like for not getting the ideal amount of sleep before work, but the judgement that matters on my performance is all I care about.

[Argus]

I admire your candour. I can only hope that your faith in your ability is never called to account.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

To be a decent controller you need to have a great deal of confidence in your own ability or you won't make it. I have that, but I also and just as importantly can recognise when I am not at my best (like 4am on a night shift) and you adjust your decision making based on that. All controllers and pilots do that. Instead of running a tight standard or trying for a spot on 10nm in trail sequence, you get a vertical standard or run a nice relaxed 13 nm sequence. Thats how it works and thats how it will always work.

[fourthreethree]

Argus.....you dont seem to have a point to make here, all you are saying, over and over, is that shift work might leave people with irregular sleep patterns which might effect their performance.

Well ****** me I never knew that.

Rather than go on about insurance policies (Im with ANSA on that issue btw) try to give solutions, and you will find there is no solution. Shift work = irregular sleep patterns. We cope with it and adjust our lives around it, as Flower stated in her post. Dont patronise her or indeed the rest of us by saying you commend our professionalism, its like me being impressed that you understand how the law works, its your job, atc is ours. Like I said before I would have thought you would have carried out a bit more research into the subject before inflicting your opinions on us via an international forum.

Anyway, back to the purpose of the thread....

Any further thoughts angel, I hope some of the earlier replies were of use to you. Personally I would say it is possible to do what you want to do, but not easy, Im sorry I cant be of any real help, as I live and work outside the uk, but I give you my best wishes:)

[Argus]

With respect, it is you who again miss the point. It was NOT about shift work affecting sleep patterns. It WAS about being excessively fatigued due lack of sleep within the control of the individual, which might lead to impaired judgement, reduced performance and a lack of concentration on the job; which in turn might lead to an incident or accident. The remedy for this lies with the individual concerned.

I'm pleased to see you have insurance. However, from the tenor of your comments, I think you have an imperfect understanding of how the Law of Negligence works.

[fourthreethree]

Argus
With equal respect, nobody has mentioned being excessively fatigued, thats your own exaggeration. We have all stated that we would not work if we were unfit to work, you seem to think we are unable to judge for ourselves. I know I can operate within the confines of my job description at 100% when I am tired due to shift patterns/home life, in fact my awareness is probably higher when at work if I know I am a little tired.

There are a whole set of rules where I work governing the number of hours we work, percentage of break time in relation to duty hours, days working without a day off, etc etc etc. These are rules we are not allowed to break, under any circumstances, which means, from a legal standpoint, we are never too tired to work. If circumstances at home give rise to excessive loss of sleep or leave us unable to perform our duties for any reason we are aware of our responsibility, and there are channels open to us within the workplace to allow us to resume work only when it is safe to do so.

[Argus]

I don't quite understand how you come to the view that I 'exaggerate' excessive fatigue, whatever that means.

I'm pleased to learn that you do have some form of procedures that govern your attendance at work. As to their legal status, you should ascertain if they are based on statute, or are they merely terms of your contract of employment, before asserting that from a "from a legal standpoint, we are never too tired to work".

I've obviously 'rattled a few cages' in the ATC world by daring to challenge some controllers' strongly held views about themselves. There are some who will never admit that they could be wrong; and remain closed to any alternative viewpoint. There are, hopefully, others who might reflect on the contents of this thread and take a broader view.

My thanks to those who have contributed to a spirited discussion. If nothing else, I hope I've been able to challenge some assumptions held in some quarters about ATC work practices.

[fourthreethree]

Argus
Find me somebody who says they have worked as an atco with excessive fatigue. You will struggle. Thats where your exaggeration comes in, this started with ANSA saying that due to personal circumstances he sometimes had to work with less than the desired amount of sleep. You read too much into that and started to question our professionalism. So yes you "rattled a few cages". Congratulations. What you havent done is caused us to take a good look at ourselves and wonder if we are really fit for the job. We do it because we know we are good at it, we take great pleasure in our work, and carry it out with the professionalism it requires. You really ought to visit a centre or two, find out something about the kind of people who do this job before you start casting aspersions on us as professionals.

[Argus]

I haven't always been a lawyer. In the 1960s and 70s, as well as serving in the Fleet Air Arm as aircrew, I held local, approach, area and GCA ratings for airfields in the UK and, latterly, Oz. I have worked 24/7 shifts in towers and area centres. I have held a SARMC rating. Contrary to your assertions, I do have some understanding of ATC procedures. And, in my time, I have seen people turn up to work who should have stayed at home. Thankfully, no accidents resulted, possibly because colleagues helped out.

In more recent times, I've acted for people in the transport industries, including aviation, who have found themselves in various bits of bother related to their employment. My previous experience has proved useful in obtaining satisfactory outcomes for my clients.

You obviously have a high opinion of your own capabilities. I'm not in a position to challenge that, except to say that, judging from your posts, a lack of modesty and a willingness to play the man rather than the ball loom large in your personality.

In any ATC unit, individual abilities and capacities range from over to under confidence. These vary over time. In my experience, the hallmark of a good controller is to be able to recognise where he/she fits on the standard distribution at any one time, and quickly achieve equilibrium.

[flower]

Argus,
you will be pleased to know that since your time served strict regulations in Civil ATC have been brought in . These cover maximum time in position without a break, minimum time off between shifts and minimum break periods.
All have to be strictly adhered to.
With the strict alcohol limits just brought in as well in the UK your ability to be fit for duty is taken very seriously.

As has been said before, when you know you are tired, IE on a night duty in the middle of a night you change your controlling habits. Likewise it was taught to me and I am sure many others that you treat a long haul flight nearing the end of its flight with kid-gloves giving them simple manoeuvres as the crew will be tired.

I understand your concerns and I have my concerns as well as to how much we would be backed up in the event of an incident happening, the man who for example fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle causing a major train crash, if we were to do such a thing after a night duty where would the responsibility actually lie, us for being at work all night long a totally unnatural act or our employer for making us work such a shift.

[Argus]

I share your concerns about employers, particularly public bodies. In Oz, the Federal Government is supposed to be a 'model litigant'. However, you need deep pockets to take it on!

[fourthreethree]

Of course I have a high opinion of my abilities as a controller, the day I turn up for work unsure as to whether I can hack it or not is the day I find a job in an office somewhere, maybe as a lawyer...

Listen this discussion was not meant to be a back biting session, but I can assure you that no controller I know would take up duties if he felt unable to carry them out to the best of his/her abilities. Legal measures are in place so that in case of an incident, insufficient rest is legally not an issue. I suggest we let the subject drop before the mods intervene (awight there mr mod:ok: )

So, Argus, I'm buyin....whats your poison?:cool:

[Argus]

Agree.

Glen Morangie.

Slange! :ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Slange ?? Sounds like something you put down drains to clean them :O

Much prefer 'Slainthe' ;)

[Argus]

Slange ?? Sounds like something you put down drains to clean them

As an old and bold, with prior Highland service, I was using an abbreviated abbreviation of the phonetic version of a traditional toast, often proffered to travellers. "Slainthe" (pronounced SLAN-jeh), comes from the Galic toast: "Slainthe eh - Uit doch slainthe eh laut!" (Hail to you - I leave you a toast to your good health)

And that's what I intended to convey...

[PPRuNe Radar]

Slainthe Mhath to you Argus :ok: