Is CTC the only way forward??

[beauport potato man]

in the "olden days" you used to "cut your teeth" on a good old turbo prop for 1500 hrs or so before you had the experience necessary to move up to the medium size jets like the ones operated by the UK charter airlines.....

My question is - with the advent of CTC offering the opportunity to those who can afford it (i didn't have a spare £5,000 having spent £60,000 at Oxford) to go on their courses...... and most airlines now taking pilots straight from there.... low hours guys&gals with no line experience at all.... (allbeit with good ability for having passed the course in the first place) if i want to progress from my job now (F/O BAe146) to the likes of Monarch / Brittania / First Choice would i be better to quit my job and attend CTC?

[Maxiumus]

CTC is A way into jobs at the airlines you mentioned, but it is certainly not the only way in.

Brits, Monarch, Ryan, Easy etc recruit people of various backgrounds in terms of experience for various reasons. I.e., if everyone is of the same experience, all up for command at same time, retirement at same time etc, you get the drift. So some are low time, years from command, some are nearer.

In my opinon CTC is purely a money making exercise. I went straight to my first job from flying school (also a 146) with 200 hours. So did many of my fellow F/O,s there. Even without the "benefit" of the CTC advanced handling course (or whatever its called), we all did fine.
They will argue its required to find the pick of the bunch - in reality a decent sim check and interview will do the same job for a fraction of the cost.

So dont even dream of quitting a JET job for a course with whom your classmates are beginners. You"re in a different market to them and feeding the money grabbers at CTC, in exchange for a what is not a qualification of any sort, will help you not a jot.

Ask yourself why you want to leave the 146 job? Although, I presume that anyone who thinks of quitting a jet job to do the CTC thing is obviously in the worst job in aviation.
Don"t even think of changing a job just to get on a better aircraft type - for a particular lifestyle/pay/type of work package, the aircraft type is irrelevent. Only change if you can substantially improve any of the 3 issues mentioned above. Aircraft all handle the same with the AP in and at altitude, on a shorthaul sector, speed is but a number.

[beauport potato man]

the remark at the end of my post about leaving this job to go to CTC was a bit flippant - i have no intention of leaving where i am.

I did want to make the point though that the natural progression of your standard airline career has been somewhat thwarted by the money making machine on the south coast.

As you rightly said, if an airline has a decent enough selection process in terms of interview and sim check then you WILL get the right person for the job. In fact those with a few years on the line with other operators will bring good experience with them, along with the ability to pass a type rating - and this has got to minimise any financial risk to the airlines.

Anyway, rant over. The situation won't change based on what i think!!

[VSI Bug]

There are other alternatives available for those trying to get into the airlines.

Astraeus, in cooperation with Bond Aviation seems to have a good scheme as well. A B737 type rating followed by line experience on type. A number of F/O's at easyJet have gone that route.

When on the subject of CTC, money making machine is a good description rather than that of a quality training institute. Good training is not really something CTC excels in, I keep hearing reports from F/O's about how pilots are not being properly trained and instructed, just being checked and chopped without proper prior instruction, coaching and guidance. :mad:

One guy was not allowed to do the skill test (type rating) because he did not make good landings in the sim....
Like the sim is anything like the real airplane...
One extra session would have been sufficient to get this guy through. :}

Another guy, a very experienced former commuter training captain, told me he would rather resign from easyJet than do his command course at CTC because of the way people there are being treated there. :yuk:

Another F/O told me when doing his first ever emergency descent in a 737 (without being given any type of coaching or run-through of the required actions in the descent), all the instructor managed to say to him and his sim partner was: "That wasn't good enough" :yuk:

Fortunately, their next instructor actually taught them something and they both managed (..) to get through the course and are now on the line with easyJet. :ok:

Some of the trainers at CTC are ok but it really concerns me to hear so many stories of poor or non-existent training, instead just checking, checking, checking and if you are unlucky, chopping. I could mention many more examples.

As the people who get through are just happy to have landed a jet job, they will not make any waves by criticising CTC publicly. The people that did get chopped don't have many legs to stand on as CTC will always be able to make them look worse if the badmouth CTC. They still need to get a jet job and can not afford to make enemies in the small airline world. :mad:

I really feel for these guys. :ugh:

That said, many will be quite happy with CTC having made it through to the right seat of a jet.

A bit more training and coaching for the cadets by the CTC instructors instead of just checking and chopping would be a step in the right direction.

[A and C]

A company in the in the UK was a few years back astute enough to see that if it offered the richer wannabes a chance to jump to the front of the job line with a "jet preperation course" then it could make a lot of money from the FATPL holders.

The problem is that a number of even less reputable companys have jumped on the band waggon and it has become the industry norm.

I find it very sad and distastfull that these companys have manovered them selfs into a position that the industry considers them to be nesessary after all most of them are skimming proffit from both the companys and the wannabes with the wannabes paying the lions share.

I see suspect agencys underpaying pilots ( usualy late !) and providing companys with pilots that have no comitment to the company what so ever due to the feeling that they are being ripped off.

This can only go on as long as the supply of pilots exceeds demand and pilots are prepaired to pay these companys , if you all stopped trying to jump the line then these companys would go out of business overnight and airlines would have to recrute direct. However by this time next year things will start to swing in the pilots favior as pilot demand starts to exceed supply.

The bottom line is that at the moment the pilots ( and to a lesser degree the airlines) are being ripped of by this bunch of parasites , only the degree of rippoff chages from company to company.

[er82]

Being a fellow colleague of BPM, we've chatted about this recently, and I can only agree with most of the comments above. How is it, that in an industry where you have to fork out £60,000 for your initial training, that to get anywhere you then have to bond yourself for another £20,000. Ok, so I understand the whole idea, and airlines wanting to preotect their investment in you etc etc, but it wouldn't happen in any other industry.

I'm currently on the Dash-8, and loving every minute, but can't wait to get a jet job. However, I refuse to hand over money to places like CTC who are only interested in making money out of wannabees. It's time for their vice-like grip on airline recruitment to stop. Airlines should carry out their own recruitment in the old-fashioned way of CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks. Not "Do you have £6000 for a nice long sim session?...Yes?... Oh good. well come and give us your money, we'll give you a course which basically means jack sh*t, and then we'll put you forward to an airline for recruitment, who will then charge you another £20,000"

No doubt I'll be corrected about this, and told how wonderful the course is, but how can it be that airlines will recruit from CTC rather than externally, when external applicants who have already had an airline job have line experience, and the ability to pass a type-rating....

[birdlady]

Hmmmm all very interesting stuff.
I have to say I am only a wipper snapper myself. It seems crazy the amount of money we spend to get ourselves trainied. I have to say I was seriously considering returning to the Uk and finishing my training but after seeing how expensive it is I think I will stay here. Better weather anyways. Maybe go fly up in the okovango delta for awhile. See more of africa. :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Dogma]

I think that the CTC product, these days, is past its sell by. There is a very worrying dependency on them by some airlines. This combined with the training some pilots have been on the receiving end of makes for disappointing reading:ouch:

[ATIS]

I too with almost 3000 jet hours, find it increasingly difficult to get a job with the major charter companies. I am especially interested in working for Monarch. I have always been "kept on file". Yet I hear that still CTC cadets are always preferred and taken on. I don't see entrants to Monarch coming from any other source. Oh by the way, the 3 conditions would all be fullfilled if I left my current jet job and transferred to a charter. Sure the summers would be busy, but no busier that I am now.

I'll just keep trying

[clarityinthemurk]

This thread has raised a number of points about aviation training which seem to be recurring over and over again at all levels of the industry. Lack of instructional and coaching skills, people of ability failing at the last or key hurdles, training organisations which may effectively be ripping people off. So the question is, why does this situation continue uncontrolled? After all, in most other areas there are third parties assigned the responsibility of ensuring the quality of goods or services provided, and to which recourse may be made. Where is this in the aviation training world?

[Redline]

The very route of the problem at CTC is that paternal favouritism is now playing a big factor in training attitudes, direction and recruitment.

Plus the market is currently being driven by schemes such as TRSS etc.

[springbok449]

Have to agree with Dogma, the CTC product is past its sell by date.
I came through CTC at a time when no money needed to be parted with (only lasted about 6 months I think!) and at that time was a pretty good product however these days I hear far too many bad reports from Southampton.

[mondriver]

Anybody know why there are so many Dutch guys going through the scheme at the moment...?

The Company I'm with has about 35 guys being put through the mill at the moment..... I think all but about 4 or 5 are Dutch.......

WHY ?

I'm sure there are many British prospective pilots that would give their right arm for a shot at this..... so why Dutch....?

I've never seen an opportunity in Holland for me to do this, so why do we have "foreign" pilots filling the seats of UK based jets....AGAIN !!!!

:*

[A300dude]

maybe those"UK "based jets are not gonna be based in the UK after all. Maybe management knows something you don't know. Think outside the box dude.

[mondriver]

umm...yeah right.....dude.

[Cuillin]

Did a sim ride with Easyjet a while ago for a DE Command on the 737.

CTC 'instructor' did the assessment.

I only did one thing wrong (a minor mistake right at the beginning) and admitted it on my self assessment form.

Got the thumbs down and when I asked EZY for a copy of the 'instructors' report (freedom of information etc) I was told they wouldn't do that but told me, apart from the error that I was aware of, the rest of the sim was to a good standard.

From my previous training experience the error that I made was only worth a comment - the rest of the exercise was to IR standard and I found pretty straightforward.

The whole episode backed up comments I had heard from other people and I have not considered EZY ever since (until that is they have a lot less to do with CTC).

I have heard from someone I have a great deal of respect for that they have some excellent sim instructors at CTC but they are in a minority.

[SecurID]

I've never seen an opportunity in Holland for me to do this, so why do we have "foreign" pilots filling the seats of UK based jets....AGAIN !!!!

There are opportunities in Holland, and elsewhere in the EU. All you need to be able to do is produce a JAR licence and speak the national language to be considered. That is one advantage of the EU.

The downside for us is, of course, how many Dutch speak English, or more to the point how many Brits speak Dutchy?

The EU and JAR licences enable any European 'foreigner' to work in the UK, with the inclusion of The Czech Republic, Poland, Cyprus etc. where salaries are lower for pilots, the promised land, once again, appears to be good ol' blighty.

It wasn't that long ago when the jobs market was swamed with ex-1989 Australians, all prepared to work for less than the locals. So once again a scenario exists whereby the British national pilot cannot see any improvement in standard of living and increases in payscales.

May Le Pen has a point after all?

[srjumbo]

Sorry securID but you are wrong. I couldn't get a job flying in Holland even though I speak fluent Dutch, anyway I fly with a much better british airline now but I am getting sick of the foreigners getting work in aviation on this side of the Channel.
A few of my colleagues went through CTC years ago when it first started but I hear that the standard of people coming out of the establishment is not what it used to be.
Is it true that a certain Tangerine coloured airline insists on autopilot use above 1000'. If so then enough said!

[nonickname]

Yeah! close the market. Back to communism!

[BigHairyBum]

There are obviously so many more flying jobs in the uk than any where else. What we really need is a load of foreign pukes to fly our jets for us while we sit on the ground dreaming of an air taxi rhs.

Naff off!!! :* :mad: :(

[witchdoctor]

It would be difficult to consider CTC as a quality training provider as one essential component of decent training is decent feedback on your performance. This is something that was lacking at CTC (actually an open refusal to give any kind of feedback) the last time I enquired about their services (admittedly 18 months ago) and one of the reasons I won't spend any money going there.

However, I know of a number of people who have gone there and passed through successfully, and for them it has been a good and useful route into a RHS and I wish them well.

I guess it just boils down to how desperate you are to take any route you can. Or maybe I just have too many screws loose.

[A300dude]

about 6 years ago I did a contract in Belgium with TNT. Those years the majority of pilots with DHL, TNT and for a big part DAT where brits. I reckon the belgian pilot community at that time was about 40% foreign (mostly brits and aussies). Strange that we never hear about those times anymore. Guess thats why you guys don,t have the jobs you wanted, your box is to narrow!. Would be running to Mama if a low cost would send you to the continent, guess thats why they have got the"foreigners". Did several stints on the continent, never a problem getting one.

[False Capture]

A300dude,

Guess thats why you guys don,t have the jobs you wanted, your box is to narrow!. Would be running to Mama if a low cost would send you to the continent, guess thats why they have got the"foreigners". Did several stints on the continent, never a problem getting one


Clearly those "stints on the continent" didn't require someone who was literate.:D

[Monde]

sr jumbo may indeed be correct about "not what it used to be" if rumours from a certain overworked fbw training department are to be believed.......

[wheelbarrow]

The usual whingeing and CTC bashing from individuals who for one reason and another have not made the grade....

[Cuillin]

Wheelbarrow

Perfectly lucid comments put forward by individuals as far as I can see.

Accountants like CTC cadets because they pay for everything themselves and can be disposed of at short notice.

I, for one, look forward to a more sensible form of recruitment than who has got the biggest chequebook or the most amiable bank manager. Yes, there is a selection procedure - but that is what it comes down to at the end of the day.

There are people with type ratings and thousands of hours who have been trying to get into Monarch recently but only on a full time contract. CTC cadets win hands down in the selection race because cost is paramount and Monarch (financially) are on a win, win deal in respect of the CTC cadets.

In respect of your dig at (possibly) my previous post then I have more than made the grade in my aviation career - several times over in fact.

The problem is not mine but somewhere else.

[er82]

Wheelbarrow..... You obviously have made the grade through CTC. Tell me, after forking out for all your training (or did someone else pay for it?) how did you manage to get the money for CTC? Bank manager a friend of the family or something?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I think you'll find that most of the comments are from pilots who live in the real-world, and managed to get a flying job through sheer hard work and determination. There are a huge number of qualified pilots out there looking for jobs, whether it's a first job or trying to move from a small carrier to a larger one and get that elusive jet job, and it would be a lot fairer on everyone concerned to level the playing field and take money out of the situation.

I have no doubt that there are extremely good pilots out there who would excel in an airline job - having the right personality as well as flying skills. However, perhaps because funding their initial training absolutely wiped out their bank account, and loans are still being re-paid, they haven't even considered CTC because of the further cost involved. And yet some tw*t who only just scraped through initial training but has lots of money could easily go there and get a job to which they are really not suited.

Now before I get everyone having a go at me for wide-sweeping statements, I am not suggesting that everyone who goes to CTC is a rich tw*t! Far from it. All I'm saying, and I think what the whole gist of this post is, is that money should not be a factor in recruitment. It should come down to old-fashioned CV's, Interviews and Sim Checks, and then once you are accepted for your training, you can then be bonded to the airline. With a normal pay-packet making it's way into your bank account from the day you sign your contract the only way you'll be liable for any money is if you fail the course (so make sure you don't!) or if you leave. And if you leave, it's most likely for another job, in which case you have no option but to pay back the airline the money they invested in you.

If Safeway decided to start asking all new personnel for £500 for the cost involved of training them how to work the till and how to stack shelves correctly, all hell would break loose. Not because Safeway want to safeguard their time and money invested in you, but because it would rule out all those people who can't afford £500 from getting a job. If it doesn't happen anywhere else, why should we allow it to continue in aviation.......

[beauport potato man]

WHEELBARROW

I started this thred - and would like to know in which way "I don't make the grade".........

I've passed 3 type ratings from turbo-props to jets and have a faultless training record.

If you could give me the answer to that it'd greatly help me.

If not then stop putting stupid one line cack comments on.

[skid]

times never change, i wanna be a pilot, i wanna be a terboproppilot, i wanna be a jet pilot etc etc. all along the way there have always been t*****s there to releve the tyro from his cash. CTC may be expensive, but at least the people who get thru do get jobs. Unlike many of us, myself included, who have been taken in by false promises and ended up with no job and a whole in the wallet. We all get there in the end. If you want the 'easy' route get in the RAF, do your time, survive, then the worlds your training cost free oyster!!

[Slim20]

And yet some tw*t who only just scraped through initial training but has lots of money could easily go there and get a job to which they are really not suited

Whilst I agree that things seem to have gone money mad with CTC, EZY TRSS scheme etc where prospective candidates are asked to part with vast sums of cash to get a job, I think the above comment does a great injustice to those who have successfully got through the selection process.

It's not like the standard FTO's who will give you a crack at the course as long as there is money changing hands.... at CTC there is a tight selection procedure, and it is grossly unfair and unlikely to suggest that someone who scraped through initial training and was ill-suited to the job would get near an airline through CTC.

It sounds terrible, but it would appear that this is the shape of things to come in aviation training......

[Monde]

I unfortunately agree with Slims last sentiments , to the airlines there is only one bottom line and CTC appear to satisfy that.
How long though before OATS/Jerez etc start a course from ab-initio which will then include a type rating at the end of it ??- the ME/IR and MCC is becoming just a "starter for ten"?? - i can see this happening in this crazy industry if it hasn't happened already..

[skid]

two points.
first, you don't need to be particularly bright or talented to become an airline pilot. These days it is little more than a higher level computer operators job. That is not to say that there are not very talented pilots flying airliners, there are. But it is not a prerequiste for the job. I was once told that the BA selection procedure weeded out overly intelligent candidates as their boredom threshold would be too low to spend years in the job. Might just be true.
second, assuming that you are of just about adequate intelligence and ability, to qualify as an airline pilot all you have to do is keep throwing money at the problem and you'll end up with all the right qualifications and ratings to get the job. Do you know of anyone who took more than six attempts to get an initial IR, I do. How much did that cost? Please don't tell me that an airline will turn its nose up at a guy/girl who turns up on their doorstep with the ink on their self sponsered atpl and Airbus rating still damp. They'll certainly look at you, and if times are tough in the industry,ie anytime, they won't even look too hard. I know of any number of people with self bought ratings who work in the charter side of things.
I'm not having a go at anyone and when you look at the financial hardship many go thru to get an airline job, I think they deserve a medal. But the bottom line is CTC graduates are cheap, thats why its a popular scheme with the airlines.

[srjumbo]

Skid, could I suggest you use a spelling and grammar check before you post any comments! Your comments, though thought provoking, carry little weight as your grasp of the English language is, to be perfectly honest, shocking!

[Batavorum]

Well mondriver. maybe dutch pilots are better than the british.

[Bobby Guzzler]

Wow, what a lot of bitterness there is on this one!

I came through the CTC ATP scheme, and it is pretty much a god send, especially with aviation as it is now - but it's not the only way in. Quite a few of my mates got flyBE, ryanair jobs etc - so why not slag off them for not selecting everyone too!

As far as the finances go in saying CTC is a rip off, can't disagree more. You pay 6.5k for the initial 36 hours in the NG sim, and then when the final line check is complete get 2k back. So right, now I'm 73/3-900 rated for 4.5k - not bad esp seen as I had 200 hours before hand! And the eJ TRSS scheme alone costs experienced tprop folk 25k out of pocket! Plus, with the ATP scheme you go onto full FO wages after 6 months - not bad for a company purely setting out to rip people off, don't you think!!!

[IcePack]

Funny Old World,

In 1986 I had 7000hrs & was a TRE/IRE on a 4 engined turboprop (VC8) but was considered too inexperienced to go straight on to the Boeing 757 so went onto a round dial 737-300 Right seat of course.

Now it would seem you only need 200 hrs of which only a few are on something like a senica (Very Small light Twin). Right Seat 757 doing the exact same Job as all those Guys/Girls who must have had more experience than me at the time.

Ho! Hum! but standards are being Maintained?
:confused:

[er82]

My mistake. And I'm not being sarcastic. Ok, so with all the selection procedures that take place to get into CTC, someone who scraped through initial training wouldn't get in. But I was trying to make the point that money could be the deciding factor between two candidates, one who has the correct personality and attitude to working in an airline, and the other who perhaps doesn't, but has the money to get in.
Oh, and as far as going on to full FO wages after 6 months, I had a friend who went the CTC way and got a job with Easy. It took 6 months before she actually got any wages. So pay up £6000, get a type-rating, get a job, but we won't give you any money for 6 months. Might not be the same now, but she sure as hell struggled to pay bills etc whilst working for no money. Oh, and those first 6 months of working, she didn't accumulate any holiday time either.

[CV Donator]

I applied for the scheme 2 years ago. I filled in the form and then had the most arrogant concieted reply I have ever recieved, it went along the lines of, you are not CTC material. My queustion is how the bloody hell can they figure that when all of my flight tests were passed first time along with most of the Jar exams.
I really was agrieved at the time that I had not been given a proper chance to show what I was capable of based probably on them seeing my school results which to be frank does not matter a jot when it comes to flying an aircraft. YOU,VE EITHER GOT IT OR YOU HAVN'T

[birdlady]

I recently met a gentlemen who used to work for Gabon airlines (west africa in case you didnt know) flying one of there 737's. And guess what - he didnt even have a PPL. Now tell me there isnt something funny going on there.

[Boeing 7E7]

CV Donator, I'm afraid the application form is part of a selection procedure and that is what companies use to call people forward. From the answers you put down on the form they will have made up their mind. Perhaps you should have examined your answers, for the reason you were not selected, rather than pondering on other reasons. After all, the procedure works fine for everyone else!

As those that are experienced in the job will testify, there is more to flying than "you either got it or you haven't"!

[Firestorm]

I've just been pondering this "glass ceiling" problem myself, and don't see an obvious way through it. I have about 3000 hours total, including 2500 turbo-prop commercial operations.

On the occasions that I get replies from the various companies that I send CVs to, I am told that I don't meet their minimum requirements of X, Y and Z, one which is usually a minimum hours limit, which I usually exceed by a factor of 2. The one I sometimes don't meet is a minimum aircraft (not me) weight reuirement.

The only route seems to be a bit sideways: the likes of Netjets. I am led to believe that operators of big jets consider Lear Jets amd Cessna Citations as General Aviation types and not proper jets. So where would that leave me for the future? Well, a bit better off perhaps, but only in cash terms, perhaps not in career terms.

The pilot market is the classic free market economy, and at the moment it is an employers market and will be for a while longer. The crunch for the employers, such as Easy Jet, will come when volunteers for the £25k joining fee are not so forthcoming, and they then have to justify to those who have paid up why the new boys don't. In the mean time, the bottom line counts big time. There is no altruism in pilot employment. If Easy Jet, or any other subsciption training provider, can sign someone up, they will as long as the bottom line is met. British pilots will see no loyalty from British airlines.

[Caracul]

Hi,

I'm new to the forums as I've only just joined to find out more about CTC so please be gentle! ;)

Are the majority of comments on this post about later courses that CTC offer, or do the posts cover all courses. I'm trying to get through selection to get onto the course that takes you from no (or little) previous flying experience up to ATPL, and then tries to get you a job with an airline. IF its only the later TR courses, what do people reckon to this one, and if the comments cover this course as well, why is it so bad? From the money aspect, as long as you spend seven years at the airline that you chose/chooses you, then there is no cost whatsoever, as it gets paid back to you. Not only that, but you do get a job, something that would worry me if I was going to a flying school and paying to put myself through. Any thoughts?

Finally, any of the guys that went on the selection day o the 14th, did you get through?

[Airbus Girl]

er82,
The old CTC scheme involved paying £6000 correct. However, the comment about working for 6 months for no pay is not entirely correct.
£6000 was required to be paid once accepted on the scheme, and allocated a sponsoring airline. The type rating, etc. and jet conversion, etc. was all free. The £6000 was a bond, which was paid back over the 6 months of gaining experience with an airline. This was to stop people working for a month for the airline that had paid for their type rating and then disappearing off to the first airline that offered them a permanent position. During the 6 months most pilots got something - everyone I knew got at least £500 per month plus standard allowances.

Yes, those people had to work for 6 months for not much money, but then they did get a free type rating, 6 months experience flying as an FO on a Boeing or Airbus and 99% got offered permanent jobs at the end of the 6 months.

[ecj]

It is simple market forces which determine the attitude of the employers. Supply v. Demand

I can recall circa 1987 when a certain chief pilot in northern England said that he would have employed a monkey if it walked through the door with a CPL/IR. No MCC in those days.

A very non CRM character had an interview and was offered employment within 3 minutes.
Start next Monday lad. Okay

Get the CRM bit right at the interview - it counts for a great deal.
Non-team players need not apply these days. They can spot you within the first few minutes.

Use your skills elsewhere - but not on the flight deck.

[FatFlyer]

I know of a few experienced turboprop pilots who were taken on to the easyjet TRSS scheme, gave up their turboprop jobs and were then chopped from the CTC advanced handling course for what sounded like minor faults which could be easily corrected with a bit of training and left without a job.
Does anyone know what percent are chopped from this course ?
To view it cynically, they may take on more than they want in order to extort £3000 from pilots who they are not sure they want to employ anyway.
If you make it through the sim check etc as an expereinced T/P pilot, surely you ought to be given more of a chance to improve minor errors.

[Whippersnapper]

As I recall from when I went through it 5 years or so ago, anyone who was chopped got their money back.

The foundation course (2 weeks) required a £500 bond, the remaining £5500 being due on commencement of the type rating with the selected (and agreed) airline. All £6000 was repaid during the 6 month line flying, in addition to significant tax free allowances.

It is unfortunate that it does exclude those individuals who cannot secure the bond. I found it extremely difficult to source the money, and was lucky to find it in time. However, anyone who suggests that places on the scheme are "bought" are mistaken or bitter. There is a very high demand on CTC to provide trainees, but the temptation to drop standards to cash-in is resisted and the selection proccess is maintained as one of the most thorough screening proceedures in the country. It's also worth remebering that they do chop people who have passed the selection but, for whatever reason, are deemed not to have met the required standard.

My experience was extremely favourable, though a close friend who I considered very worthy of their scheme was turned away. Personal experiences are subjective, but one cannot say that the product is poor, that places are bought, or suggest that the successful cadets are somehow undeserving of their new jet positions.

[MAX]

Its the loyalty to companies from the workforce that will lose in the end. I personally know quite a few pilots who were in a certain hold pool for years only to be jumped by CTC trained crew. Most I feel will not stay with the company, eventually costing more in training costs.

As for the loyalty CTC crew will have I cannot comment but here is a maths question. If over six months all get you back is the 6k you paid, aren't you still losing half of a years salary? Effectively paying 20k for a type rating anyway???:confused:

MAX:cool:

[Whippersnapper]

MAX:

As I stated in the post immediately above, and other have previously stated, there is a significant ALLOWANCE ON TOP of the BOND REPAYMENTS.

My pay whilst on the scheme equated to a salary of about £24k, though there were no pension or duty pay bits and pieces. A free type rating with more than 146 pilot pay is not a bad deal.

[nicksmalley]

This really is very enlightening as I am(was) very tempted to go with CTC.

I do hear horror stories but I am a 21 year old, fresh out of a 4 year Masters in Aeronautical Engineering, got my Class 1 medical and I am dying for a job as an airline pilot.

CTC appears to me as the only real route.

Therefore, I would love to hear any suggestions as to the other routes available. If there are any, they certainly don't publicise themselves very well because I don't know of them. Without the insight as to what's out there, I'm afraid more and more people will keep handing over their cash to CTC.

Thanks

Nick

[Eagles Forever]

nicksmalley

CTC is not the only way forward. I suggest you look at 'skyblueaviation'. They offer straight forward B737-300 and ATR type ratings. Very professional training, cheaper than CTC and no bonding.

Here's their web site

www.skyblueaviation.com

Good luck. skyblueaviation

[Whippersnapper]

The CTC scheme is definately a good start to a career, if you are able to get on it. The selection process is very thorough, and to an outsider like me, they often seem to turm away people who appear to be good candidates. There is also the difficulty in raising the bond money.

Against this, you have an immediate jet job and a good training foundation. It also does no harm on a CV as it shows a level of ability to pass their selection, and a proven quality for completing their training.

There is another organisation called Global Solutions, which offers what I understand to be a similar scheme.

There are always those who knock these schemes, and those who have been on them. Naturally, these individuals have not been on such a scheme themselves, and so their views are one sided, and sometimes tainted with a little bitterness at the fact that some are able to get a career shortcut, while it took several or many years for them to achieve a jet position.

In the end, just do what serves your job prospects best: if CTC can take you straight out of ATPL trg and sit you in the rhs of a 73 or 320, without you having to spend upto 2 years unemployed, a couple more as an instructor or air taxi, and yet another 2 or 3 on turbo-props, so much the better.

[Nil further]

Ladies & Gents

The financial merits / pitfalls of the CTC scheme will appear different to each individual depending on their own circumstances.

I offer you this view , yesterday from my "privelleged position" in the LHS of a 4 week old Orange B737-700 i watched a CTC cadet land a 56 ton aeroplane on a short runway at their max x-wind limit in poor vis . 4 months ago this person was un-employed and scratching around for that first turbopop position like we all did.

As far as i can see the CTC scheme is a great opportunity for any wanabee. From my employers perspective it turns out a consitently high standard of First Officer wihout the risk to the company of other methods of Cadetship.

i have spent a fair amount of time at CTC in the past , i accept i was being paid to be there however i would say this :-

Their selection process is extremely well thought out and thorough , it has to be , they are taking a financial risk and a risk with their reputation with major clients like EZY . The airline does not have the time or training capacity to suport a high failure rate during conversion or line training.

The selection process is hugely oversubscribed, that why they can pick the candidates they believe have the best chance of making the grade and fitting in with the client airlines.

Some of you may not like to hear this , not every wanabe is capable of meeting the challenge of going straight on to the B737 or similar as a first job , its a simple fact . All CTC ( and others) are tyring to do is make sure that the people they send to the airlines make the grade .

Beauport Man : dozens if not hundreds of your former colleagues have found a way "through the glass ceiling" over the last year or so , a lot but not all of them to EZY .

I think we all have to accept that the LoCOst boys have changed this industry for ever . In return for flying new equipment in an expanding profitable company , we have to accept that the traditional routes in to and through the industry have gone forever .THese days its about commercial savvy and selling yourself hard and getting on the winning team no matter the cost...... not everyones cup of tea addmittedly .

Good luck all
NF.

[jonathang]

nicksmalley

I think you maybe talking about a different scheme.

Guys here are refering to the CTC Type Rating scheme.

I assume since you have been at Uni for 4 years you don't have an ATPL.

The other scheme that CTC runs is the Cadet Pilot Sponsorship from Zero hours to ATPL to Type Rating to a JOB.

Hope this helps

Jonathan

[nicksmalley]

Thank you so much for the replies.

I was talking about the cadet sponsorship scheme but its all handy all the same.

The way I look at the cost of it is just part of the process. I've just forked out over 20k for my degree, us younguns are just getting us to debt as a way of moving forward.

I'm not too bothered about the cost of CTC, I'm more concerned that you get your moneys worth and they don't try and stitch you over.

If 84K is what it takes to put me in the cockpit, so be it.

Cheers guys

Nick

[kinsman]

I have had a fair bit of contact with CTC over the years and as far as I can tell they provide very high quality training, which is why airlines like their students. They appear a very well run organisation and the guys in charge are fair minded and honest folk.

Whilst there are certainly cheaper routes into aviation there are probably none better and you are fairly certain of finding work after attending a CTC course, which may not be true of all other routes as friends of mine can testify. I would say weather you are looking for a type rating or zero to hero course CTC are well worth considering.

If I were starting over again it would be my chosen route.:ok:

[BoraBora007]

Just quite happily reading this thread when I come across the most amazing post, by "skid" on page 3 of this thread were he states:

first, you don't need to be particularly bright or talented to become an airline pilot. These days it is little more than a higher level computer operators job

I was once told that the BA selection procedure weeded out overly intelligent candidates as their boredom threshold would be too low to spend years in the job.

to qualify as an airline pilot all you have to do is keep throwing money at the problem and you'll end up with all the right qualifications and ratings to get the job

Now I have seen a number of stupid posts on prune, but this takes the biscuit, I cannot possibly describe how stupid it is, I dont have the patience, but a few points:

Firstly, being an airline pilot is a lot more than a computer operators job. What if the computer breaks at 30,000ft, what if you have a mechanical failure? What about the responsibilty?

Does a computer operator have to think about these problems/issues?

As for the BA selection procedure weeding out overly intelligent candidates - that is I swear the most ridiculous thing I have ever read in my life. Not to mention the most patronising.

What about throwing money at the problem? - I suppose personality, teamworking and communication skills aren't required?

Skid you are officially a geek :8 with no clue.

[scallaghan]

Hi

I have been reading all of your replies regarding CTC and training.

I am 24 with my JAR PPL and am studying with Bristol ground school via remote ATPL ground study course.

Also while doing this I have been building my hours up here in the U.K on PA28R's and PFA aircraft.

I did go to Flordia in the U.S but didnt do too much as the flying school didnt seem that great.

Every time I see a sponsorship scheme I apply, however I feel I am better off going through the modular route and finishing my CPL, ME and IR at Bournemoth Commercial and perhaps save cash.

Another good reason is that I feel I am not under at the moment any financial pressures while studying the ground school and the ability to read everything at a slower pace but really get a good grounding for the future.

The two schemes that I have applied for were FLYBE which I didnt like and was rejected. The second was CTC which I have been invited to a selection day interview and I am might consider popping along.

Not really having a total commerical awareness of the aviation industry, it sounds like the only winners in terms of making profits are those companies that supply the large commercial carriers such as BA etc.

[Timeout]

In this forum, many negative CTC comments have been made over the recent weeks. CTC offer a once in a life time opportunity for wannabes to fulfil their ambitions of becoming airline pilots through the cadet scheme.

I fail to see the issues with the financial and job placement arrangements for cadets. How many schools could offer you 0 hours to a right hand seat jet job, including type rating, accommodation, flights, training equipment etc for the cost of a £60000 bond? This is a product of modern economics. No airline, major or otherwise, could afford to pay for a fully sponsored cadet scheme. The financial risks and implications are just too great for them at present.

I for one, feel very fortunate to have been selected by CTC, and find them to be nothing other than totally professional. I have never felt that they are only after me to make money (as some have suggested in other threads).

CTC have never failed to place any of their trained pilots, and have a very thorough training system. The airline get a very well trained pilot via a low risk route, CTC make a bit of profit, and the cadet gets the job they have always wanted. A problem – I think not!

I do feel that some should be a little less hasty in making certain comments about an organisation they have no or little experience of. And I would highly recommend CTC as a route in to aviation for any wannabe.

…rant over!

[Old King Coal]

Timeout - w.r.t. How many schools can offer you a 0 to RHS jet job for £60,000 ?

Err, Stapleford Flight Centre, in association with Astraeus, are offering this for £52,000 ( see: http://www.flysfc.com/courses/astraeus.htm ) and of which, as I understand it, some people are already well into their training on said same course.

W.r.t. 'I have never felt that they are only after me to make money' - well trust me when I say that CTC made plenty of money from you; which is, after all, why they are in business !

Indeed one can be certain that all those TRI’s & TRE’s whom CTC employ are not giving their time for free and / or working through some sense of altruism for your benign benefit :rolleyes: .... oh no, rest assured that they’re in it for the money !

That said, don't get me wrong, wherein I know a good many of the folks who work at CTC - and some good blokes they are too - but it is a business first and foremost.

[10002level]

I have read this with interest. I fail to see, from an overall perspective, any advantage that the ctc scheme is offering us, the pilots. The scheme does not create any jobs, it merely takes money from individualy who can afford it. If company x has a requirement to recruit 20 F/Os they still have to recruit for these positions. The ctc scheme seems to allow them to do it on the cheap for those that can afford to pay their fees. If ctc were not there to fleece us, then those 20 positions would still be there to be filled.

[easy cadet]

I’m referring to the CTC Wings cadet scheme here, as I don’t understand the others on offer.

I have a different perspective of the morality of this scheme.

When I looked into self-sponsored training, I found that all of the schools were keen to grab my money – not that I had a lot to grab. They made all sorts of promises about subsequent employment which they were unable to substantiate. Some of them had apparently sophisticated selection to get onto the course; however it seemed that most people passed the selection, reducing it to a sales technique and con.

I then tried to find out how many of the 1,500 UK wannabes that start out their commercial pilot training each year actually get an airline job. I couldn’t find any accurate figures, but let’s say that it is a small percentage.

So, let’s compare this scheme with self-sponsored training.

Self-funded

Selection by cheque book
Find your own funds
A tiny chance of employment straight into an ‘airline’ job on graduation
More likely years of less glamorous pilot employment
A significant chance of never making it to an airline job at all
Pay for all the extras yourself (accommodation, travel, etc.)
Pay for additional training if required yourself
Years of debt paid back from taxed salary
No chance of getting your money back if you fail during training
£60K plus accommodation, plus all sorts of extras for the integrated course I nearly went for, and just over 200 hrs

CTC Wings

Intense selection (2.3% success rate was quoted)
100% funded – right down to pocket money if you need it
As high a chance of airline employment as anything – including the old fashioned cadet schemes such as BA
Straight onto a jet with a major carrier
Fully comprehensive including all extras
Additional training and retest fees covered by CTC if needed
Reduced salary compared with an experienced pilot, but the bond paid off by the airline with no tax consequences – salary easily equivalent to a turboprop job which is a realistic average first job for a flying school graduate
If you fail, CTC refund up to £30K of the bond – the first £30K so you pay nothing
About £3.3K for the PPL and everything paid for by the airline thereafter, oh and a licence course of 285 hrs most of which is on twins

This is an absolute heaven send. It also compares very favourably with traditional sponsorship schemes where, with the exception of BA, you had to put a substantial amount of your own money in and that was spent first.

You can see which choice I made and I am utterly delighted and feel duly privileged to get this opportunity. My experience is that the company are completely honest and fair – they took trouble to point out during the selection the commitment and conditions and in contrast to the flying schools trying to flog a course to people who have little chance of achieving their ambitions, I’d say CTC’s morality is impeccable.

[Oggin Aviator]

I am totally impartial on this subject, seeing as I am not in the commercial training pipeline (although considering it :confused: )

Surely success breeds success. If CTC can find places for all their graduates, this record will be noticed by the airlines and potential students, therefore increasing interest, throughput and ultimately increase the level of success, and so on. This will continue until the organisation reaches its limit. The same thing happens in every other area in a free market economy.

Can anyone comment if CTC use their networking contacts to try and secure jobs for modular people just doing their AQC, not the full integrated courses?

Oggin

[Timeout]

easy Cadet - At last someone is talking sense!!

I couldn't agree with you more!

[tree_greens]

Oggin Aviator,

Just so you know, CTCs wings scheme is MODULAR, not integrated. CTC seem to keep this fact quiet.

[no sponsor]

Easy Cadet,

Nice argument, however, you are comparing against some of the more dubious practices of OAT, and of an integrated course.

For those who get a good score in GAPAN, or previously passed military selection tests, but who are now too old to do the Wings or other CTC schemes, then CTC represents a real problem for those to get into the industry. Effectively, it bars others from approaching certain airlines, for instance, Monarch.

I see CTC as a god-send to those who are young enough, and who are prevented from entering training unless via loans.

There will always be people, at whatever stage in life, who will want to be airline pilots, or pilots of some sort. Unfortunately, some are not cut out for it, either through lack of raw ability, or personality. I've met quite a few people in training of whom I struggle to see how they are going to get through an interview. But it's their choice. Who has the right to stop them training? No-one. There are others who do have the right skill sets funding their way through training.

Prior to CTCs various schemes, the industry did OK. Most captains/FOs I know who are not in BA, self-sponsored their way into airlines. There is nothing wrong with this approach, and has been used in most other countries around the globe. Basing an argument on morality, in this instance, is unnecessary to be honest.

[easy cadet]

No sponsor

It is fair to say I am looking at this from my own perspective as I am less well informed about other routes into the industry.

When I left school there were a number of cadet schemes and the RAF – I got the info on most of them and decided to go to uni before applying. I guess at the time, they barred older people from the jobs at the end of them. By the time I left uni, thinks had changed. I decided that I didn’t really want to go into the RAF – I want to be an airline pilot, and BA and British Midland had stopped their schemes and eazy had started sponsoring; the format of the scheme was a little different but it had the same effect on the availability of airline jobs – some new jobs are effectively barred to people not coming off the cadet scheme that feeds them. I applied to JMC and eazy but screwed up the selection, so then started looking into paying for my own training.

I was bewildered by the choices available, and found the flying schools were very ready to take my money, their advice was contradictory, and their hints and promises about my employability on leaving them outrageous. I passed the selection for one integrated course – as did a suspiciously large number of the people who I met there. But I was struggling to find the money to pay for it.

I did meet the owner of one small school who was totally honest though – the most interesting discussion I’ve had with anyone about the airline industry. He told me to get onto a cadet scheme if I could and if not, to be realistic about my employability. If I was still keen, to save my money as much as I could, but make sure to do the groundschool, CPL and IR with someone good who can show a good track record of getting people through the exams. He didn’t try and sell me his course (modular) and refused to advise me against an integrated course.

I was left with the strong impression that if I did pay for my own training, the chances of employment where not great. The morality issue I refer to is the great marketing machines that have the sole purpose of parting you with your money, but fail to point out the reality that the odds are stacked against you if you do. I was pretty determined, so I had just about decided to take the plunge when CTC told me that I could reapply. I did, was luck enough to succeed and have not looked back since.

Is it wrong that people over 30 can’t get on this scheme? Well I guess that is up to the airlines who set their recruitment rules, but as far as I can see it is no different from what has always existed – if you are lucky enough to get into the RAF or onto an airline cadet scheme, your chances of success are very high. If you are too old, or don’t manage to pass cadet selection, caveat emptor.

One other think no sponsor, can’t you get into Monarch from the ATP scheme? I don’t know that much about it, but my impression is that route is still open to people who self-sponsor – that was certainly in my gameplan if it did have to pay for my own training.

[jmc1980]

One other think no sponsor, can’t you get into Monarch from the ATP scheme? I don’t know that much about it, but my impression is that route is still open to people who self-sponsor – that was certainly in my gameplan if it did have to pay for my own training.

That's perfectly true. I fail to understand why CTC prevents people who self sponsor from having a go at Monarch or Britannia for example. It's quite the opposite actually, simply because these airlines wouldn't otherwise recruit low timers - especially self sponsored low-timers.

and No Sponsor,
Prior to CTCs various schemes, the industry did OK

don't you think it is abit easy to blame CTC for everything? I personnaly think that it is rather those who pay for their type rating who hold a good deal of responsibility for the worsening of our T&C's, and the overall employment situation.

[Pilot Pete]

I fail to understand why CTC prevents people who self sponsor from having a go at Monarch or Britannia for example. It's quite the opposite actually, simply because these airlines wouldn't otherwise recruit low timers - especially self sponsored low-timers.

I am not sure where you get your info from, but you are certainly WRONG about at least one of those airlines which does employ direct entry low-houred, self sponsored pilots.

PP

[jmc1980]

Sorry you are right PP,

the info I got was simply from ppjn,but it appears that some of it is incomplete and/or out of date - so I stand corrected!

But still there seems to be alot of CTC-bashing going on in different pprune topics and I do think it is a bit unfair to blame everything that's going wrong in the industry on them. Especially since, as you say, even ctc's partner airlines continue to recruit self sponsored pilots (except maybe Monarch and EZY)

[no sponsor]

I am not bashing CTC. It's a good scheme, and is of a great benefit to certain people. I liked the CTC cadets I trained with, and wish them all the best. I hope they are the ones who will go to BA.

I do want to disarm people in the industry that because, (a) you are over a certain age (34 for the ATP scheme), or (b) you have self sponsored, that this should preclude you from having a fair crack at the whip, so to speak.

As I keep saying, there are many self sponsored individuals who have had very successful careers elsewhere, but for what ever reason come to the industry later in life. Discrimination of any form, but particularly when it is used as a marketing tool, really irritates me.


(BTW - Please refer to Highflyer27 statements (the other CTC thread) on the benefits of CTC being able to only offer the route into certain airlines).

[mbcxharm]

M80: as far as modular/integrated goes, it IS officially a modular course and the cadets need the requisite number of hours for licence issue as for any other modular course. I believe this is because the training is split between eg. BGS and CTC themselves. (I didn't study latin, but I think ab-initio means 'from the beginning' so that could apply to integrated and modular).

I don't know how things now work between the Wings Cadet and Wings ATP schemes but after CPL/IR issue the cadets were effectively mixed with the ATP scheme pilots on the AQC courses with CTC and the training from that point on was identical, although the airline placements worked differently.

[mjc9967]

Hi everyone - new to this with my fATPL and looking at the CTC Wings ATP scheme. I have lots of questions if anyone can help please!

Does anyone know the approximate timeline of an application to the ATP scheme starting with initial application form? How long does it take (if successful) to get on to the AQC, and how long from then is it normal to get with a partner airline?

Am I right in thinking that initial selection has three parts, namely:
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview

and that all of this is for entry to AQC? Is it true that it is only upon entry to the AQC that the £6000 is payable? How does the £2000 rebate I have read about work? Is any rebate part of the eventual package of payments received from the airline?


Does consideration of partner airlines begin before starting the AQC, or only when it is passed and you are finally on the ATP scheme? Are you on the ATP scheme as soon as you are successful in the AQC, or only when you have a partner airline?


Thanks

[TRon]

Does anyone know the approximate timeline of an application to the ATP scheme starting with initial application form? How long does it take (if successful) to get on to the AQC, and how long from then is it normal to get with a partner airline?

I believe there is quite a backlog at the moment. From the application form (which incidently is a monster!) about 4-6 months for an interview date. All in all can take up to a year to just get in the pool. I would bank on being in the pool for 6 months minimum as well.

Am I right in thinking that initial selection has three parts, namely:
Aplication form
Testing and Teamwork exercises
Interview

There are three phases as you say but slightly different order.

Phase 1: Application Form
Phase 2: Group Discussions and Aptitude test (Maths, Technical and a Plate Decode). You will then get an email that evening, as to whether you have been successful or not.
Phase 3: More Group excercises and the interview.

Then you wait for an AQC Date. Range from that month to 6 Months away. Dont know the wait list at the moment, perhaps someone else can help, but a friend of mine has been waiting since Sept having passed the selection.

and that all of this is for entry to AQC? Is it true that it is only upon entry to the AQC that the £6000 is payable?

Yes, a deposit is payable on the month of your course. 6k includes accomodation and VAT. See if you can get a kind company to pay it for you and get the tax back, thats what I did.

How does the £2000 rebate I have read about work?

Payable back to you on completion of you interim line check.

Is any rebate part of the eventual package of payments received from the airline?

None, you are on 1k a month paid to you by CTC for 6 months from start of line training (with easyJet anyway, might be start of TR with other airlines ;) ) then onto full salary. Some airlines will pay you flight pay (Monarch for example) whilst you are with them.


Does consideration of partner airlines begin before starting the AQC, or only when it is passed and you are finally on the ATP scheme? Are you on the ATP scheme as soon as you are successful in the AQC, or only when you have a partner airline?


You are just allocated to an airline as and when they need someone. So I am told if you refuse or dont fancy somewhere you wont be offered anything else. You have to still do selection for a few of the partner airlines Britannia and easyJet certainly do, and you can fail them quite a few did at easyJet. You are only on the scheme on completion of AQC which around 85% pass and Steve Billett has reviewed your file. You then go into the pool and then get placed in the order you went into the pool generally, although some airlines do state they prefer older guys, etc etc.

[jmc1980]

I confirm everything TRon said in the previous post. I would just like to add that I know of someone who passed phase 3 not so long ago and has been offered a place on the AQC starting beginning of Feb.

Things are moving - so to those applying: go for it!

[mjc9967]

Thanks a lot TRon and JMC, excellent answers to my questions!! :ok: Thankyou!!

TRon,

You are just allocated to an airline as and when they need someone. So I am told if you refuse or dont fancy somewhere you wont be offered anything else.

I totally understand CTC not tolerating people who are too precious about which name they get, but how does this bode for people on either side of the Airbus / Boeing divide? Do you need to just take what you get or is this preference taken into consideration from an earlier stage? Is it best to be neutral on the issue and take what comes?


JMC, out of interest, do you know when the guy offered the February AQC started his application?

It sounds like an incredibly long haul doesn't it? How on earth do people stay current during all of this??

I wouldn't like to not try to get a job any other way while waiting on all those various stages to come around. I suppose a fair number of people get jobs some other way while going through all of this? (Not meaning to say the streets are paved with first jobs of course but you know what I mean!)

What do you think would be the situation if someone hit the panic button and went and did a self financed type rating along the way? Would that preclude you from further participation, or make you more attractive? Do type rated people do the scheme?

Thanks again,

Mark

ps: CTC told me on the phone they are not accepting any applications at the moment, wanting to match as they do likely airline demand with supply - they said to check back at the beginning of March....a good sign that they manage numbers sensibly to the benefit of existing participants to the extent that they turn down cash??

[TRon]

I think you have to take the stance that you, as an unemployed pilot, should take whatever jet job is offered to you as quite frankly whether it is Airbus ir 737/757 you are getting an opportunity many have and would fight tooth and nail for.

Whilst I can appreciate you might prefer one type, I dont think you would be looked upon too favourably if you stated you only wanted Boeing or Airbus for example.

I can totally understand your stance as I thought the same, but the way to look at things is that once you are the other side of the recruitment fence, you have a few more options. i.e. 1000 hours on jets (for example a year and a bit) you can move to where you might want to be, rather than having been put by CTC and 9 times out of 10 once you have this experience most operators you migrate to with experience will pay your type, as you are generally moving up the ladder most see it, although I cam quite happy where I am at the moment!

In terms of paying for a type rating whilst waiting you will certainly preclude yourself from the scheme. CTC certainly want to asses you using their own instructors, through their own systems and practices.

I had a friend that was in the same boat (ish) only he was in the pool and was offered a job on a Turboprop whilst he was there. He asked CTC if he went there could he keep his place, they said not. Reason being you as a CTC cadet are expected to start at very Short Notice. Mine was Call on Friday for a Monday Start. Hard to get a job which will keep the wolf away from the door and allow you to leave with that kind of notice, but can be done if you are straight with them and dont use any of your holiday. Again, that was what I did, used my holiday to cover my Notice period and explained this from the start.

All in all it takes a while, but you are straight onto a jet, and not had to shell out the 20k for the rating. There are pro's and cons's but I have got a 737 rating out of it, and will start my Airbus course this Aug not even having had 1000 hours on the thing! Not because I am anything special, just with everything in this business in the right place at the right time!

[Kilo-club SNA]

Good to hear from some guys who have actually been there and seen it.

I've been searching some info and listening to rumors so could you clear this up for me?


You spend the 6k on the AQC, Then you do the TR with a company which you fly for a while with the parner airline (as I understand some companies pay you and some don't..or?). Then you are hopefully offered a permanent position..

So when does the company interiview you? I would guess before TR? If you fail that or the company sais "not quite what we were looking for" are you out of the game or what?

Besides the 6k I've heard that some companies make you sign a bond. How common is that and are there any other holes to look out for.

In the case of EZJ and CTC are you considerd as a member of the TRSS and therefor have the reuced payscale fort five years?

If you could answer any of theese questions I would greatly appreciate it

[TRon]

You spend the 6k on the AQC, Then you do the TR with a company which you fly for a while with the parner airline (as I understand some companies pay you and some don't..or?). Then you are hopefully offered a permanent position..

You do the TR at CTC. Normally you are with all CTC Cadets in the case of Britannia, but with TRSS guys as well with easyJet. Just depends on the company. Some companies pay you Fllight Pay but that is it. You are paid 1k a month from CTC on top of anything from the airline, as I stated above. easyJet pay all your out of pocket expenses such as car parking, mileage, Criminal Record Check etc. You dont get any nightstop allowance which is a bit of a pisser, but I only nighstop once a month if I am lucky!

So when does the company interiview you?

Some dont interview, others do. When the partner airline says how many they need, that many then go to the partner airline for an interview. If you fail that, you are put back in the pool. Quite a few failed easyJet selection and are now with Britannia, Jet2 etc. Just the way the cookie crumbles, bad day, bad interview 'not orange' etc etc Happens to everyone but you dont get tossed aside, they appreciate that you just might not be suitable for every airline!

I would guess before TR? If you fail that or the company sais "not quite what we were looking for" are you out of the game or what?

See Above ;)

Besides the 6k I've heard that some companies make you sign a bond. How common is that and are there any other holes to look out for.

At the end of your six months 'Line Experience' the partner airline may ask you to sign a three year bond. I know Jet2 are doing this. easyJet dont, but in your CTC contract you are obliged to accept any offer of employment and are given a sample of the contract you will get so they wont spring anything on you. I know what you are thinking, but CTC are not out to rip you off, neither is any partner airline. What you must remember is someone somewhere down the line has to pay 23k upwards for your training and naturally no company is out to give away money for nothing, especially in todays environment. Normally this is the company who employ you and naturally they dont want you to just bugger off. Find me somewhere where you dont pay directly for your type rating that doesn't bond you these days. It isn't a rip off, just them protecting their investment.

In the case of EZJ and CTC are you considered as a member of the TRSS and therefor have the reuced payscale fort five years?

No as I stated in the post above, you go onto full pay after 6 months and TRSS is not reduced salary? 90% for six months yes for TRSS which is the same for any pay increase, even from SFO to Captain, but not for CTC ATP Cadets on initial contract offer. Are you thinking of the Wings Sponsorship scheme? That is 7 years as well, not 5!

[Kilo-club SNA]

Ok that answers most of it

Regarding the bond, Obviously I'm not complaining about being bonded. As you say it's very reasonable, what I am concerned with is that if I understand it correctly (in EZJ) the bond is in you name which means that if you were to get fired or the company would turn belly up..it would still be your name on the paper. I know I'm a bit paranoid but I have my reasons :} and maybe I got the whole thing wrong.

Actually there seems that the people on the TRSS are on about 5k less pay, according to the website. look at the pay for pilots under "salaries and benefits" and compare it with the pay listed under TRSS. I still wouldn't complain but it is a bit of a difference (about the price of the AQC, yearly :E )


Eh, one BIG question.
The AQC it's a demanding course, obviously, but is it a three week long sim check or is it a course?

What I'm trying to find out is if they expect you to learn and make some misstakes and show that you can improve or if thay fail people for let say, not reaching standards early but improving to be above standards at the end of the course.

Hope that made any sense