Arrogant SR pilots?

[N380UA]

I have had the chance to talk to some Swissair pilots about the current situation and was astonished to hear that they would rather go on welfare than to earn 30% less or even be associated with the name Crossair. Fly4fud et al, what are your positions on this?

[The Guvnor]

And the same applies to a significant number of the Sabena pilots as well - who have a tendency to strike as soon as they don't get their way. Talk about spoilt brats throwing their toys out of the cot! :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

I'd like to think that the pilots taken on by the 'new' Sabena and the 'new' Swissair would be made up exclusively from the ranks of those that show the willingness to buckle down and get on with the job without the whinging, jobsworth attitude problems.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Guvnor your pathetic.Stop going on and on about pilots and stay off pprune unless you have something positive to say.Your comments are like an old 78 record SHUT UP. :mad:

[F/O Junior]

Unless you have all the facts, you really should shut up GUV. Although many of us will lose their job by the end of the month, we still do our job, not knowing wether there is money left for the october salaries or not. As our contracts are no longer worth the paper they're written on, we're no longer forced to maintain the 'Friedenspflicht' and we could go on strike. But we still do our job.

Just to get you a little impression what we spoiled brats do:
Day 1: ZRH-SKP-ZRH-SVO ~12:00 dutytime
Day 2: SVO-ZRH-DUS-ZRH ~11:30 dutytime
Day 3: ZRH-ATL up to 10:30 flight time, with 2 man ops
Day 4: ATL-
Day 5: -ZRH

or

Day 1: Sim Check
Day 2: Sim Refresher
Day 3: ZRH-LHR-ZRH-GVA
Day 4: GVA-JFK
Day 5: JFK-
Day 6: -GVA-ZRH

[Flapskew]

Hang in there guys and gals. Yes it is hard out there at the moment. Things will improve. Welfare is not the way ahead if you have been there.

Keep a cool head.

[cosmo kramer]

F/O Junior,

Do you prefer this?

Day 1:
Day 2:
Day 3:
Day 4:
Day 5:
Day 6:

[N380UA]

F/O Junior
I'm very happy to see that not all SR pilots are thinking the same way as some of the fellows I've talked to.
Hang in there..... we are all in the same boat.
p.s. just disregard GUV. I don't mean to be offensive here but I found it for myself to be the easiest way to deal with some of his comments.
Good luck to you all...

[Cosmo]

Kramer,

Perhaps F/0 Junior was trying to make the point that they're still working hard under uncertain conditions. And maybe, if I may venture as far as to say, his post implies that not all are arrogant at his outfit. Consider the prospect of losing a respectable, hard to get job due to apparent mismanagement( benefit of the doubt given). I suspect that some are just angry and disappointed at the moment.

Cosmo

[411A]

Well now, F/O Junior, when you applied to SR you asked for work, did you not? Now the company asks you to work, so why do you complain?
F/O Junior, seems quite an apt name. When will you grow up?

[tiger burn]

Hang on in there F/O Junior & the rest of the SWR crew. I've spoken with a great friend who has given 22 years to SWR & as the old boy says, the pilots have never lost the airline any money. Nor do they or any of the other employees deserve to be dumped on by a combination of incompetant management & fraudulant financiers.

At least F/O Junior et al still have pride. Chins up!

[N380UA]

Well said Cosmo, tigerburn.

[fly4fud]

N380UA, heard and read the same, i.e. some SR pilots preferring to go unemployed than to work for "Crossair" :eek:
Well, let's not call that arrogant. I would rather say this is out of the blue (!) thinking. Reality has certainly not set in. But it will. Sure F/O Junior, you could strike :D Just hope you have some back-up plans outside of aviation. And the Swiss public and taxpayers gonna love that :D
Now, seriously there is no choice. I sure don't wanna play great arbitrator here, but you SR pilots have to start working hand in hand with LX pilots (CCP/Aeropers), like it or not. Otherwise you might well BE RESPONSIBLE for the other thousands of jobs that will go down the drain with you!

As for the 10-12 hours block days F/O Junior, thanks we at LX have know that for years, and we love it! And we love our job! Most of us could have done something else for more money. I took a pay cut of 40% when I started, but I love my job!

In resume, looks like the golden years of Swiss aviation are over. We are now talking survival :cool:

[Unwell_Raptor]

It's a human thing. People can't believe that the world they have grown into has changed so dramatically. Just like people still look up at the Twin Towers and can't believe they aren't still there. It's tough, and many of us sympathise. Just remember the people in employment that they believed to be stable forever who had to come to terms with the same realisation that the world has changed: jobs for life are now jobs until the next nasty surprise.

Le's not be too quick to judge - these guys need time to adjust.

[Cisco Kid]

no ill feelings but is it all a question of salary ? poor LX guys have accepted poor pay & conditions for years & moved on if they could (some improvements recently I agree)no reason for Swr guys to drop to this level,I would suggest an increase for LX & a decrease for Swr ,should be a reasonable compromise,benchmark all you want you get what you can negotiate ,let´s not get into a jealous tiff but get a good deal for all ,because despite media hype pilot´s salaries make up the sq root of F**ck all in overall operating costs after all despite public opinion,firmly on the side of Swr at the moment,the new airline still needs people &pilots salaries will have no influence on the outcome of the venture,none at all ;fly 4 we all love our jobs but not all are prepared to bend over & accept whatever is offered! something which hopefully shouldn´t surprise you ...good luck to all concerned ,on the ground & in the air. Cisco

[The Guvnor]

Without wishing to be too cynical about it - but then, why break the habit of a lifetime> :D - it could of course be very much in an individual's best interests to go on the rock 'n' roll in Switzerland where they have a remarkably generous 80% of salary payout for at least 2 years.

SR MD11 commander CHF300,000. 80% of that is CHF240,000 to do b*gger all.

In contrast, a third year LX EMB4 commander earns CHF83,500.

Not too hard a decision, is it? :D :D :D

[Saab 2000 Driver]

I´m affraid you are right N380UA.

For years they laughed at Crossair, and treated us like 2nd class citizens, because we fly smaller airplanes, have less pay and work longer days. You can imagne that even the thought now having to join Crossair is cause for some sleepless nights for some SR pilots. :eek:

But what´s the alternative ? If I would get fired tomorrow then I would take almost any flying job, so I do not understand these SR pilots. Why the hatred ? What has LX done wrong to upset you so much ? Ofcourse the pay isn´t the best in the industry ( :eek: ) but it means that you can continue to fly and stay current in an economically tough time.

Most Crossair pilots seriously wonder how we can ever work together with ex-SR pilots in a positive and productive way if we look and listen to all the statements made by Aeropers in the last week.
I think that Aeropers is no longer acting in the best intrest of it´s member by trying very hard to blow up all bridges to Crossair. :(

Let´s hope that the Point of No Return is not yet passed and that we can build an airline together. I´m sure that (at this moment) it will mean a big step back in sallary for ex-SR pilots, but I am also sure that we will reap the rewards within a few years. ;)

[Saab 2000 Driver]

You´re right Guvnor, the numbers are scary !

[Notso Fantastic]

Well blow me down, one thing you can rely on in life is nerds like GUVNERD jumping in with anti-pilot postings (in a Professional Pilot Network). This fool has subjected you all to nearly 3100 troublemaking, anti-pilot-at-every-opportunity postings. What can we do to get rid of this idiot? I've taken to not reading anything with this fool's name attached to it, but almost every thread is infested by him! There is no escape- in our own forum, and look at him!- a complete failure in life! Take a look at this idiot who spends his sad life in a Professional Pilots Forum: http://flytristar.tripod.com/article/art06.html
The man is deranged!

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Notso Fantastic ]

[The Guvnor]

Notso Fantastic - my dear boy, I was wondering what had happened to you. I was thinking that you'd been unmasked as one of the instructors for the terrorists but it seems you've managed to slip the net again.

Strange, I still don't seem to have received a request from you for a copy of the email I sent to Ryo Yano demolishing his badly written claims (which anyone else can have as well if they are interested).

But then, since when has the pursuit of truth and integrity been one of your interests, eh? :D :D :D

[Ficky]

Am I being naive here, or are The Guvnor and 411A related?

[rtompkins]

Great figures guv, pity they are complete codswallop.

Max unemployment benefit in Switzerland is er
8200CHF per month or 80% of salary whichever is the lower for a max of 13 months in any 24 month period. That adds up to about er 105k CHF over 2years or 40K Sterling give or take . Oh yes and you have to be married with kids to get that level otherwise it gets slashed.


And by the way you must apply for at least 10 jobs every month, live in Switzerland, have a valid permit, accept the first reasonable job (ANY reasonable job) offered to you by the employment office and it doesnt matter how big the pay cut is either etc etc etc

[411A]

No Timber, the Gov and I are not related, but we both have run companies' and have met the payroll (out of our own pockets) and still we survive to offer jobs to those that don't have the guts to do likewise.
Incompetent management will be SR's demise and the court action that will surely follow should be VERY interesting.
As for the SR pilots....well, bite the bullet, what else can they do?
The dole queue forms to the left.

[FrappsZello]

Thanks User123. Glad to see someone could correct GUV in in his single minded "pursuit of truth and integrity!" Now that I have read the sorry story of Caledonian Wings, I can see how it is possible for GUV to find the time to be able to write so much rubbish on prune. Now that Crossair are about to become a big name in International Aviation you should apply to them GUV. "Chip on the shoulder" is a prerequisite for employment with them.

[penguin]

Thank you, Not so Fantastic. After reviewing Guv's web site, my only conclusion is: HE IS A PARTS SALESMAN

[Cisco Kid]

AS usual the sad Guv is wrong,411 also,no personal insults,but hopelessly completely wrong ,1/10...see me.Please don´t ever be in charge of anything ,don´t worry it´s O.K to pretend !To all LX colleagues will you ever get the message that LFSB is in FRANCE it is a large & important European country bordering on Swizerland ,sorry about the ATC strike but pls don´t take up our parking posns.in ZRH let´s get this thing going together,by the way, 22 yrs in SWR is average ;30 would be more like an "old boy"maybe we can learn from each other !

[Hooking Fell]

Nothing seems to change. There are still too many SR pilots out there who can't tell the difference between being among the best pilots and being among the best paid.

It's time they realised that in the whole sad history of SR over the last couple of years, their salaries were simply unsustainable. That some of them are now asking for the same unworkable pay scale to be applied to them in any successor to failed SR would raise serious questions about the presence or otherwise of any common sense. :mad:

[Cisco Kid]

TOO MUCH TIME IN AFRICA GUV!(see african forum)it goes to the brain ! I will see this fool banned .

[Cisco Kid]

Hooking F.pilot´s salaries have little to do with an airlines success ;are you a SR reject(& many good people were turned down)Why the bitterness?

[Cisco Kid]

N 380 etc. pretty good wind up !why is your e-mail blocked? .........

[N380UA]

Capt. Cisco,

you don't need my e-mail just tell me what you need right here on the forum.....that is what it's for right?

[The Guvnor]

Cisco Kid - it's all very well saying I'm wrong, but unless you give the correct answer then people will (a) not know what the correct version is; and (b) think you're talking a load of bollox.

Given your rather disjointed series of replies, I think that the latter may well be the case anyway!

I find it rather strange that as an alleged pilot you are unaware that the EuroAirport in fact serves no less than three countries. In order to help you brush up on your knowledge, here's the link: Euroairport (http://www.euroairport.com/) So, nil points for you on that one then! :D :rolleyes: :D

[GuvBuster]

Guv,

Get the hell out of 'ere!

[Hooking Fell]

Cisco Kid:

I've neither been rejected by SR nor am I bitter - just stating a few home truths.

:D

[tiger burn]

Cisco......don't get tetchy!! 22 years - old boy - its merely a fond reference to a bloody good bloke who's got alot to lose.

tb ;)

[Delboy]

If freedom of speech has any value, it means that people like Guv and his many detractors can occupy space on forums such as this, side by side. The alternative is socialism, where freedom of speech is suppressed by a ruling clique who cannot find a means of articulating their views in a way which would convince the reader/listener. Guv can be demolished by reasoned argument, as user123 has demonstrated. As Churchill said, plagiarising, I believe, from an earlier philosopher, "I disagree with you views, but I will defend your right to say them."
The road to totalitarianism is well trod and begins with the repression of freedom of speech.

[Cisco Kid]

OK GUV ,the information given by user 123 regarding Swiss unemployment benefits is full & correct in every sense..your information is wrong.LFSB ,note the F in the designator lies geographically in France & is subject to French rules &Atc,meteo etc .it may serve 3 countries but not when French ATC are on strike !nothing alleged about me old boy !

[fly4fud]

Cisco Kid, I agree with your point of view (well the one on page one of this very interesting thread).
It is about time for both LX and SR to shake down all our "cultural heritage" and try to work together.

To LX pilots: we could eventually maybe profit from SR pilots integration. This could effectively push our salaries slightly up. It would also give a fresh air of professionalism that I sometimes miss since working for LX. We have plenty to learn about them ;)
Also integration of SR pilots might be our only chance of survival. If we'd confined ourselves to profitable European only ops, our company would have to be downsized by roughly 1/3. This could affect all of us :( The aggressive stance of CCP is not representative of the pilots thinking :)

To SR pilots: you will have your salary truncated. You will have to pay for 50% of your pension fund :( On the positive, you will still have a flying job (for the ones who really like it :D ). It will be varied. You will, at least on the European network, spend more time home as we have less nightstops. The aggressive stance of Aeropers is not representative of the pilots thinking :)

Let's do it and stop shooting at each other!
(some want to keep their bullets for The Gov :D )

[Few Cloudy]

Wrong there Guv. The payout is for 1 year -also it has a cap below the 80% you mention -but only if there is no similar work available. If Crossair offers work to a proportion of the SR guys and they refuse it, they will have a hard time qualifying for that kind of dole deal.

[ 16 October 2001: Message edited by: Few Cloudy ]

[approver]

Fly4fud

I followed your postings a bit.

Why are you writing ALWAYS in a way as you would represent the vast majority of Crossair pilots!?

You must be one of this older ******
lx-copilots they hired 3 years ago when they accepted even the weakest applicant.

How the f**k may you say that the CCP does not represent the opinion of the majority of the lx-pilots?!

You`re name says everything; I am fly4fud and I am proud of having had a 40% salary cut
and by the way I am an asslicker and I would fly for free if necessary as I am a FLYING FREAK!

Boy be careful I am tracking you down !

Your profile is quite rare at lx

Former SR Technician
age around 40
RJ F/O or junior Captain

Jumbolino pilot pull the SPEEDBRAKE!

[The Guvnor]

Thanks for that clarification, Few Cloudy - I was going on information provided by a third party from Alpine parts. Not having worked there myself, I don't have any first-hand knowledge of how the system works.

So ... it looks like things will get rather interesting for those SR guys then if they turn down the LX offer!

Interesting times ahead!

[Willie Everlearn]

Dear Guv,
Precisely, if possible, why would a country such as Switzerland have an airline the like and size of Swissair in the first place?
Has it got something to do with history?
Population?
Size of Empire?
National pride??
Large collections of Swiss nationals abroad requiring their transport to the homeland on an annual or regular sabbatical?
I've missed the point here, other than to conceed, most, if not all pilots, don't know or understand the first thing about economics, business practices and the running of a 'successful' modern day airline.
As tragic as it is that many of our colleagues will soon walk the street...
I fear many...globally, will soon join them.
If I were at Swissair, I'd be jolly well delighted Crossair had the testicles to even suggest salvaging part of my airline. Wouldn't you?

There but for the grace of gawd...

[N380UA]

…it seems as though the Swiss Government is now willing to shoot in some money for the new "Phoenix" Airline. The pay cut may be less and shorter than firstly anticipated.

By the way APPROVER,
I'm a flying super freak actually! So what?

[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: N380UA ]

[fly4fud]

Dear approver, first of all welcome to this forum!

And thank you for your first posting, very nice...here some answers:

- to everybody on this site, Fly4fud does not represent neither the CCP (though he has always been a member and a defender!) nor the vast majority of Crossair pilots!
- thanks for your doubts regarding my qualities as a pilot. Be assured here that I can hold my own :)
- I sure did not imply that the union does not represent the majority of LX pilots, if anybody was under this impression, please accept my apologies
- I am not sure of anybody here being proud about any salary cut anytime. I just remember having been in a group of pilots having voted no, wanting more wages and not more time off on the new contract last year. Yes I'm proud being a pilot and this surely reflects in the way I do my job.
- please, stop menacing. It must be permitted to have personal opinions on a forum like this as it is in the rest of ones life. There are unfortunately enough areas on this planet where this is not an option.
- like all forums, this one is for an exchange of ideas. My personal opinion is that it should be constructive and interesting.

Take care
:cool:

P.S. no reason to "track me down"... just send me an email and we can proceed to an identity exchange. Several people know who I am, no big deal, no need to open the hunting season...

This message edited for typos and P.S.

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: fly4fud ]

[YakYak]

Fly4Fud:
DO remember to keep taking your medications now, won't you dear. Your trade-mark confusion is creeping in again. Your statements, and their subsequent back-pedals, are starting to make me feel seasick. Consistency, mate. Consistency!
Is LX culture real or just BS to pay FCM's peanuts? Do the unions represent the pilots or don't they? Do you love your job or are you just a sad mad nutcase that gets his rocks off seeing his own (feeble) words in print?
Fair Dinkum, Ju-Ju, I think all that 2-litre vibration must have finally dislodged somethin' important, Mate!

GO SWITZERLAND GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Yeah fly4fud, get with the program, will ya !

Who´s side are you really on ?

In the long live Swiss Air lines thread you suggested the following :

1 “Moritz Suter/Andre Dose to resign.” Why, may I ask ? Especially Andre Dosé has done a very good job and is proving to be a good, yet uncharismatic, CEO.

2) Mario Corti as new CEO ? He has no real experience in the airline business and has no vision. The only thing he was hired for was crisis managment at which he is failing.

3) “SR pilots keeping their salaries for say the next 5 years” What about LX salaries ? Any idea how you want to sell this one to the CCP or the (potential) investors in the ´new´ Crossair ? Again, who´s side are you really on ?

4) ”do not protect staff from Basel. If the two airlines are to be merged, as has already been stated numerous times, no taboo. Which means there are going to be redundancies at LX too”
What kind of medication ARE you on ?!?!? You have to be kidding ! Sure, punish the staff of an efficient airline ! Are you one of those people who like to run up a bar tab (say SFR 15 billion :D ! ) and expect someone else to pay for it ? Is this what you call a” a Swiss compromise ?”

[Few Cloudy]

Willy Everlearn - why do (did) they have such a big airline in a small country?

The answer is money. It was big business and it also encouraged investment in the country - kind of a flying Swiss bank.

That's how it was anyway. After a few years of - as they used to say - tory misrule, the thing has been quickly and comprehensively ruined. Apart from the poor Bggrs directly affected, the knock on effect to Swiss business (scratches in the shiny paintwork)will be very large - unless they can get something equivalent up and running fast. Signs are that they won't quite hack it.

PS signs are that the skies over CH may be getting more orange.

[YakYak]

Can't quite hack it, my ar*e, Few Cloudy. Things are looking good, and getting better by the minite. Friday's are great for organising the odd Billion or two of funding. Next week will be rather interesting, I can assure you.
As for Ouzo breath, I'd keep a closer eye on who's been making major off shore orange share purchases over the last few days if I were you. Looks like MO'L might be planning something a bit cheeky with all those lovely punts.
Watch out, Few Cloudy! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: