oops blackbushe bizjet crash

[pax britanica]

Driving past Blackbushe today -saw shiny biz jet /beechjet(?) N200?? completely totalled against low bank at the far western end of the runway. It seemed to have only just happened altho emergency services partially in attendence, and A30 was being closed I think after I drove on further.

Aircraft was in an extra ordinary mess with wing ripped completely off and balanced on top of the fuselage which itself was on its side and facing back towards the east. Must have over run the runway due to amount of damage. Hopefully everyone got out ok as no sign of fire or ambulances but a total write off.
Weather seemed ok except pretty strong northerly wind -anyone know what happened

pb

[hobie]

not a lot more info but Pilot is safe (slight injuries) ......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/dorset/3608221.stm

sister ship .........

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=260977

[Mark Lewis]

N200PR Raytheon Premier, unsure of the operator. Apparently a brake failure of soe sort...

[srs what?]

N200PM private Premier being flown by 1 pilot (poss owner/pilot can't remember) from Farnborough to Blackbushe.

Made a radio call once realising he couldn't stop and managed to slew it round onto the grass.

[Daifly]

Bear in mind how bad anything made of fibreglass (sic) looks when smashed up and you have some idea of how bad it was!

Drove past later on in the day once the A30 had been reopened, it looked bad, but then when they're not in one piece they generally do.

Aside from the speculation above regarding the nature of the problem which caused this, what are people's views on this level/type of aircraft being Single Crew. Bear in mind it's got the performance of the Learjet 45, but it's lighter...

[pax britanica]

Saw it later on Meridian TV news and surprised it was single crew-looks a relatively large complex aircraft. Not surprised at brake problem theory as it had obviously gone off the end at serious speed.

For once the journos were not exagerating with thier comment that it came to rest less than 6m from a two fuel tankers - if anything it was even closer to two trailer tankers labelled Jet A 1.
Anyway glad the guy got out unhurt-bad luck to have had the accident but real lucky to walk away

[global707]

Dailfy

Think it comes under the 12,500lb weight that the FAA put on single crew ops. Interesting point though, as these aircraft become more and more complex and are more and more angled towards the owner driver, is single crew ops a good idea?

[Maxrev]

Looks like a Cessna 150 driver's wet dream...

Raytheon Premier 1 Flightdeck (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/387334/L/)

:cool:

[mattpilot]

looks like a baby citation X :cool:

looking at the cockpit, it doesn't look to cluttered - don't know why you'd need more than one pilot :D hehe

[fritzi]

Mattpilot,

You dont! (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/292919/M/) :8

[InitRef]

I think a 150 driver's wet dream will look more like this :-)

http://skylane.cessna.com/avionics.chtml

[pax britanica]

Yes the A 30 was closed for a couple of hours- if the plane had gone off the runway end to the right istead of left it would have been more than 'some disruption' thats for sure. As is aid in earlier post it was lucky day as far as what could have been

[TD&H]

Daifly:

Single crew on these sorts of jets IMHO isn't a good idea. Think of a dirty wet night out of eg Stansted, vectors, then directs, numerous altitude/FL changes, plus many frequency changes is a busy enough task in a two-crew jet. Especially if you're sent to a point not on your flight plan (which happens), try to find that when you probably miss-heard it anyway. At least one pilot can do the flying whilst the other looks it up, into the FMS, chats on radio etc.

Have flown single in busy airspace and think it's a recipe for problems. Even if not for yourself, then as a knock on effect to ATC and other a/c

My thoughts.

H

[Sleeve Wing]

TD&H
Could it be that it is cleared single crew only in VFR/VMC,as a number of small bizjets are ?
After all it appears to have been just a positioning flight - - and maybe even for CFD maintenance ??
Just an idea, before pointing fingers.

Sleeve.

[srs what?]

Latest is that it was actually Luton - Farnborough but diverted to EGLK being its maint. base due problem with landing gear.

As far as I'm aware the Premier 1 is Single Crew IFR.

[global707]

Correst SRS what?

Under FAA it is IFR single crew.

see link below for report

3rd time an overrun has happended on this type !! Pilot apparently dropped pax at Farnborough due to a 'serious tech problem' before repositioning to Blackbushe.

http://www.ainonline.com/weeklynews/AIN_weeklynews.html#story2

[Daifly]

I'd agree with what TD&H said regarding single crew Ops.

This flight had dropped the passengers in Farnborough because they had a failure on the anti-skid braking system. They were checked over then positioned to Blackbushe for corrective maintenance.

The thought of a high performance twin, let alone jet, routing Farnborough to Blackbushe (what, 2 minutes flying?) in addition to the frequency change, configuration change and the thought of landing with the Anti-Skid inop isn't one that many of us would relish...

I'm annoying myself now though, as I always say that we shouldn't make judgements on these things until the AAIB have had their go.

(And yes, it stopped just short of the fuel farm at Blackbushe. Thank God...)

[Bumz_Rush]

Blackbushe is a fun place in a small, or even mediam jet. In a 125 one day...and the fire service almost pushed the nose back from over the fence.

Single or two crew.....the jet aircraft in our future are becoming smaller, cheeper, and before long these will be the 172, or 182 of the past. ALL will be single crew.

Have operated Citations 1 and 2 single and two crew, IFR.
Yes two crew is much better. The certification sinlge crew is mostly based on a functioning auropilot. BUT the work load, if not 101% on the ball is excessive, even for a great guy like I is.

And to follow up the last post....with NO anti skid and a short runway, and so close, I would have asked very nicely to engineers to get their tool kit to me....as it happens slightly less expensive too.

rant over....and out.

[His dudeness]

Third overshoot of a premier ?
I think, its the fourth, there was one in Cannes France not too long ago...

[TD&H]

Sleeve Wing

I was not pointing fingers in this case. I, like you, do not have the full details.

My comments were a response to Daifly's question, not to this incident. Seems that he and I have similar ideas regarding single/two crew flights. Flown both, prefer two crew for safety etc. Although you can't get that through to some private owners, cause all they see is you, in the cruise, relaxing up front pushing buttons! Wish that it were like that all the time!

H

[Sleeve Wing]

TD&H.
Point taken, old chap. Two crew will always be safer.
Makes one wonder whether the manufacturers get them certificated as single crew (surprisingly in IFR. IMHO) to make them appear to the average business user as cheaper to operate.

As far as the present incident is concerned, single crew should still have been sufficient. One could always speculate on the consideration of NO ANTISKID performance data and I'm definitely with Bumz_Rush on whether it would have been more prudent to wheel the Engs.over to Farnboro.
Commercial pressure ?
Rgds, Sleeve.

[bluesafrica]

Don't know the antiskid system used in Premier. MU 300 Diamond had a system that when "panic" braking was applied system went through it cycle and then brakes were released, even that heavy brake pedal pressure was applied. Brakes returned when pedal pressure was released for a split second and then re applied. Quite difficult to remember when other end is approaching in a hurry!
Blues

[aye aye skip]

Chaps, I’m inclined to agree with Sleeve Wing and Bumz_Rush on their comments. Whilst it’s wholly inappropriate to make any comments before the AAIB report is published on this accident it would seem that perhaps commercial pressure was applied to position the aircraft from Farnbourough to Blackbushe with said Antiskid inoperative.

I used to fly in and out of Blackbushe a bit in a CJ1. According to my Cessna Abnormal Procedures Checklist for Landing with Antiskid System Inoperative, the landing distance has to be multiplied with a factor of 1.4. There’s also a Caution box stating that excessive pressure on the brake pedals may cause wheel brakes to lock, resulting in tyre blowout. Not being familiar with the Premier1 checklist I’d hazard a guess that it has something similar.

LDR for a CJ1 in normal landing configuration at MLW at the conditions prevailing on the day would have been approximately 2760 feet. I doubt if the Premier1 would have been at MLW but I’d imagine its equivalent landing distance required is higher than the CJ1 due to its swept wing design. Now factor in the aforementioned 1.4 and any usual JAR/FAA landing factors and the declared LDA for rwy 26 at Blackbushe of 3415 feet or so starts looking a tad short…

With only a very short flight time from EGLF to EGLK and some configuration changes to go through, it would be fairly simple to get into a situation of a rushed/unstable approach, particularly when operating Single Crew. Get the Vref wrong and/or landing long and kiss goodbye to any remaining extra landing distance, especially under heavy braking and with perhaps a tyre blowout.

Once again, too early to tell before the AAIB publishes its report but my 2 cents worth.

[Wycombe]

...off down the road (at least it's not far) to AAIB

N200PR leaves Blackbushe (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/553985/M/)

[LGW Vulture]

Ooops, take a little look at the blue poster in the background! :uhoh:

[pax britanica]

Well spotted LGW vulture- you must have the eyesight of your chosen nickname.

I go past Blackbushe a great deal as I live nearby - there seem to be a fair number of jet ops mixed in with the training and helo stuff. Is the runway length at Blackbushe that marginal and if so why don't the jets use EGLF which is literally walking distance away and much closer to both M3 and rail links while Blackbushe is relatively speaking in the middle of nowhere-is it just $$$

[srs what?]

Money and whether or not they want you there. Especially at weekends.

[Wycombe]

I've lived in the area for many years and can remember the following types operating from the current Rwy 08/26 (actually over 1300m of tarmac, but with displaced thresholds at both ends):

F27/BAe748/SF340/SH360/AT72/CN235/G222
125 (all up to 800srs)/Lear (all variants, although the old noisy ones are now banned)/Falcon (all variants, including 900 and 2000)/Citations (all except for a 750)/CL601

May not prove much but should give some perspective for those not familiar with the airfield.

Runway looks nice and big on approach (it's 46m wide, a legacy from the airfield's military/commercial past).

Oxford, which about the same length (and a lot narrower) has been handling a G5 recently.

[SP-IFR]

Hi Guys

A bit of info on the Premier I.
I have been flying the Premier (RB-31) for just on 2 years now. I've often heard people express the opinion that single pilot jet ops are risky, and are accidents waiting to happen. I must however let you know that is a marvel of modern technology, designed specifically with the single pilot in mind. The ergonomics are exceptional, and despite appearances has remarkably simple systems. It is equipped with a brilliant auto-flight system, which will maintain control even in the event of engine failure. I have encountered terrible storms, heavy traffic and unexpected ATC requests, and never felt overworked, or that I needed a co-jo.
Ah, but what about real emergency situations you might ask?
Been there done that - complete hydraulic failure due to a ruptured reservoir after takeoff - no gear, no flaps, no brakes, no spoilers, no anti-skid. All single pilot.

The aircraft is 12500lbs, but being lightweight composite means much larger cross-section than its competitors. The cabin is only slightly narrower and lower than the 28,000lb Hawker 800. No contest against the citations and learjets.

41000 feet, up to Mach 0.8 means airliner performance. TCASII and EGPWS mean good situational awareness. A truly remarkable aircraft. I must however mention that I am a professional pilot, and not an owner-flyer. I do agree that the risk of an accident will increase if a high-performance jet is piloted by improperly trained aircrews.

[GTJDS]

SP-IFR,

You are a hot shot to handel all that on your own, What would hapen if you died while flying, afcs handel that as well???


O a good aircraft would not rupture its hydraylics after take off.

[bluesafrica]

GTJDS,
I wouldn't think that it would make much difference if man is dead. Was it one two or three man crew. One is still dead and at the end of the road...
I had hydraulic problems in several different types and don't think that those were all bad.
I do not fly single pilot but I agree that when the cockpit is designed for that it will be a different story. Obviously ultra modern auto pilot system will help a lot.
I sometimes miss my early years in the north with floatplanes alone and without any nav aids! That was flying!
Blues:ok:

[GTJDS]

Yup those were the days.


I agree if you dead you dead but the pax might like to see another pilot there if one passes out no matter how fancy the flight deck is.

[SP-IFR]

GTJDS,

Nothing cheers me up more than a true cynic...