Kemble - big hike in Landing Fees

[Timothy]

Anyone thinking of going to Kemble might want to read this (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5492)

Timothy

[matspart3]

Inevitable really, it's a very big airfield to maintain to Licensed standards

[Monocock]

When you go to a top holiday resort do you expect to pay Butlin's prices? When I land at Henstridge and Kemble I would say one was 4 times better than the other.

Therefore, bearing in mind that Henstridge is a fiver, Kemble could be £20 in comparison.

I do not have money to burn but I am self employed and have a business to run so can understand their need to increase prices. Costs need to be covered and as the previous post explains, it is a big place.


Just my opinion.........

[S-Works]

Must admit as much as I hate spending money on landing fees the others have a point. Kemble is a suberb destination and a tenner for my landing fee on Sunday was not unpalatable. Landing a twin at Kemble is a bit more expensive but hey flying twins is not a cheap pastime either!

[140cherokee]

Wouldn't be so bad if they had an NDB/DME procedure or better still an ILS, but either would probably require full ATC. Do they have any plans for these? (would probably be difficult to establish IAPs with Aston Down and South Cerney so close).

140

[aztec25]

Worth every penny - it's a great place to visit and a very friendly bunch.
Az

[IO540]

£14 or so is peanuts on the scale of any sort of GA flying whatsoever. I would happily pay £20 if it meant the future of these airfields was safeguarded. If the flight is so short that a few quid extra on the landing fee matters, one could almost certainly drive there faster.

[PhilD]

IO540 - I totally agree. Kemble have been making a real effort to make it one of the best £100 sandwich destinations in the south. As a result it's Mrs PhilD's favourite, so I think an extra few quid on the landing fee is money well spent to keep her happy, so that she gives me less grief on the remaining £££££s I spend on this pastime in the course of a year.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hmmm,

Let's see in which other walks of life one would happily swallow an 80% price increase.

FD

[IO540]

I think it is obvious that (unless the airfield derives most of its income from property rental etc) the landing fee is a contribution towards substantial fixed costs.

So an airfield could charge £20 if they get 1k landings/year, £2 if they get 10k landings/year, or 20p if they get 100k landings/year :O

But the # of movements is likely to be largely fixed, and is probably declining anyway together with the shrinkage in the UK PPL population (30% down over the last 5 years according to one of the CAA-sponsored mags I got the other day).

So there are likely to be more landing fee rises in coming years; the alternative being the airfield closing. There are many people who don't have a choice e.g. the local pilots who are based there. For most of those, a loss of their local airfield is likely to mean end of flying, because few people want to drive 1-2 hours.

[FNG]

I have not visited Kemble since it was licensed, but have heard that the facilities are good. I must pop in there soon. I have no problem with supporting airfields such as this by paying what is a pretty insignificant amount in the context of an expensive hobby.

[Flyin'Dutch']

IO,

I am completely baffled by your post, the assumptions you make are gratuitous and have no connection with real life.

Whilst it is true that the population of GA fliers is unlikely to increase just because they charge a reasonable fee for landing, there is a market for places for people to visit (otherwise no need for airfields at all!)

However as others have already indicated, Kemble does not have a monopoly as being the only destination one can choose.

Luckily enough the people at Kemble are more than happy to listen to reasonable arguments brought forward by folks that are unhappy about an 80% increase of landing fees so if you too feel that this is too much, let them know!01285 771076

FD

[2Donkeys]

I am not sure how a rise from £10-14 is an 80% rise.

But... £14 pounds to land at Kemble is very good value IMHO. If you want to whinge, there are much more worthy targets at all ends of the facilities scale.

Bristol Lulsgate - Outrageous handling charges
Cranfield - Landing Fees
Shoreham - Landing Fees
Newcastle - Landing and handling fees
Luton - You cannot be serious.
Leeds - Ditto
etc
etc
etc
etc

Those whinging about Kemble should try any or all of the above and perhaps turn their guns on Kemble only once they've dealt with some of the more outrageous cases.

2D

[Timothy]

2d

The charge for my Aztec at Kemble is £33, which is 50% more than Biggin, more than East Midlands, more than Teesside, same as Exeter.

Anyway, their choice. As I say, The Propellor at Bembridge is pleasant enough.

Timothy

[2Donkeys]

Far be it from me to doubt your numbers Timothy, but a TB20 close to my heart was within the last 4 weeks charged

£28.10 at Biggin
£65.00 at East Mids (includes Mandatory Handling)
£15.60 at Teesside.


I reckon an Aztec would have to be more than that in each case.

[Flyin'Dutch']

2Ds

£10->£14 would be only 40% but £10-->£18 is 80% according to my calculations.

All the airports that you quote have an IAP and the associated higher costs, and quoting wrongs at other places (like the mandatory handling for us puddlejumpers) do not make this one right.

Anyhow, in the event that the landing fees remain reasonable (as in comparable to its previous level) I would expect all those who have berated us for whinging, to make voluntary contributions in the magnitude of the difference.

;)

FD

[2Donkeys]

FD

I see that your preferred aircraft is heavy enough to fall outside the usual "light singles" definition. Bad luck :( I guess they figure that anybody rich enough to fit all those avionics has got to be good for an extra 4 quid. ;)

Nonetheless, the prices at Kemble are in the same ballpark as Wellesbourne, Shobdon, Conington, Henstridge, Andrewsfield, Lydd, Dunkeswell, Wolverhampton Galactic Spaceport.

Some of the above charge more than Kemble's new fees, some below. It is not obvious to me that Kemble charges enough to merit particular attention.

2D

[rustle]

2D, maybe I missed the point, but I understood Timothy's post was more about the change in Kemble's fees "overnight", rather than the comparative cost of Kemble -v- someplace-else.

On that basis, with the price increases as described, I think it is worthy of some attention - just maybe not both barrels ;)

[Timothy]

I am going to be operating my Aztec out of Kemble for a couple of days (formation flying in twins...lucky me :p ) and have been chatting with the airport manager, Alan Mutton, about the £33 landing fee.

He is a very reasonable chap, and I have arranged to have a cup of coffee and a chat with him on Tuesday.

I do get the impression that Alan is doing his very best to work out how best to charge to ensure that the airfield stays open and viable, but simply has got the elasticity calculation wrong wrt light twins. This will be the gist of my point.

If there are any particular points that anyone would like raised, particularly re landing fees for heavier aircraft, please PM and I can make the points to Alan and get an answer.

[matspart3]

Landing fee for an Aztec at Gloucester is only £15 when you buy 100ltrs or more of AVGAS...same applies to all twins up to 2750Kg

[BRL]

Formation flying in twins eh... If you need some talking ballast with a camera let us know..... :)

[sharpshot]

Come on Matspart 3 - why are homebased a/c not getting a discounted Rwy charge when taking on 100lt:{ Surely you are discriminating:*

[vanhigher]

also you seem to be discriminating against twins over 2750kg !

[matspart3]

Can't please all of the people all of the time...but we're trying!!

Vanhigher
The 2750Kg weight limit on twins is based on our perception of the biggest GA twin, likely to be used privately.....even this required some 'tweaking' when we first introduced the scheme as a certain C340 driver will testify. We took the view that it's reasonable to assume that anything larger, such as a Chieftan, is likely to be operated commercially, with landing fees etc. factored into charter or business running costs.

Finding the balance between what our customers are prepared to pay and actually covering our costs, which, believe me, are far higher than Kemble's due to ATC, RFFS, Navaids etc. is very very difficult. Our standard fees and 'per metric tonne' rate are generally on a par with Biggin, Shoreham, Oxford etc. and we're fairly competitive by comparison to the less well equipped local airfields such as Kemble, Wellesbourne, Shobdon etc.

We're closely monitoring our new fees and charges and already considering subtle changes based on feedback from customers, which is always welcomed. So far, the response has been largely positive, with fuel sales up significantly and over 30 000 movements in the last 3 months, with a noticeable upturn in 'visiting' traffic.

sharpshot
Still haven't worked out who you are yet, but I'm sure our paths must have crossed at some stage!!! BIG discounts are available to homebased operators through the block fee scheme....but we are listening, please pm me if you have a particular issue you'd like addressed...

The key points here are that Airport operators are in a competitive market and have to adopt charging schemes that cover the costs and keep different types of customers happy...we think we're going in the right direction and in the interests of healthy competition, hope Kemble will too

[sharpshot]

Matspart 3 - check yr pm's

[Timothy]

To be fair, Kemble offer a 50% landing fee discount on fuel uplift (I believe their minimum is 50l) but, as I explained to the manager, if I want to pop somewhere for Sunday lunch with the kids neither a £33 landing fee, nor an obligation to buy unwanted fuel (I get mine on contract from Biggin at a reduced rate, but it's more a question of hassle factor and putting another bill through my books) is condusive.

Old Buck have charged me £20 for a year's landing. Their food is nice enough for the kids (though no AV8) so it makes the decision to come to Kemble more difficult.

AFAIAC Staverton is a different matter. I go to Gloucester and Cheltenham on business and therefore land at Staverton; there is little choice in the matter, it is not a discretionary spend.

[Johnm]

Having been charged £22 by Blackbushe last thursday for a PA32 I don't understand why anybody has a problem with Kemble!

[Timothy]

um...let me think...oh yes, £33 is 50% more than £22 :p

Would you pay 50% more for everything? :rolleyes:

[matspart3]

Timothy
You are 40% heavier than a PA32 and you've got 100% more engines!!!:D

Looking at the Kemble website again, the 50% discount for fuel only applies to aircraft below 2200Kg and their fuel has just gone up to to £1.06 per litre...could be an expensive trip...head further north...you know it makes sense:ok: :ok:

(I'll even buy the tea):D

[Croqueteer]

I've been involved in building and operating two private airfields, and my attitude is treat them like supermarkets - balance the books with hangerage and long term parking, then get as many punters in as you can (No landing fees for private) and then devise methods of getting their money off them!

[Timothy]

I really don't think that comparing landing fees at different airfields is helpful.

It is purely a matter, in each separate case, of the elasticity of the market for that airfield.

If I need to do business in Inverness I might be prepared to pay £100 to land there, because there is zero choice and it's a long way away.

I have a meeting on Friday in Huddersfield and suddenly the otherwise rather unattractive Crosland Moor takes on a new glow.

Blackbushe is handy for a lot of the high tech industry in that part of the world. It also sits in the middle of one of the richest and most expensive parts of the country. If they have discovered that the techie whizzkids and stockbrokers are not going to be put off by a £22 landing fee and are not going to go to WW, Denham or Booker in preference then the best of luck to them. If people vote with their undercarriage, Blackbushe will be forced to rethink (or turn the whole place over to markets and auctions.)

Exactly the same can be said for Staverton and anywhere else, each on their merits.

My discussion with Alan won't have any "moral" or "ethical" overtones. I won't be saying "you ought to charge less" I will only be saying "your current fees are driving me and most other Aztec, 310, 421 and Baron drivers I know away, not only from your airfield but from your restaurant and shop, if you want me to come for Sunday lunch in AV8 you need to reduce the landing fee considerably; if you don't want my business that's fine too, you must decide how best to run your airfield."

[Flyin'Dutch']

Jeepers!

£1.06 for a liter of AvGas that is 7p more expensive than at Bournemouth International Airport.

FD

[rustle]

£1.06 inc VAT per litre after the price rise tomorrow, from £1.02 inc VAT today.

He is a very reasonable chap, and I have arranged to have a cup of coffee and a chat with him on Tuesday.

Timothy, this is exactly what you said in April when they first hiked the charges through the roof.

It would appear that having got through most of "summer" 2004 with these rates there will be little if any incentive to reduce them.

[Timothy]

Fair enough, but Alan has been there only three months. Let's see what happens on Tuesday.

The bottom line is that I (and I know the same goes for others) won't go there at £33. He must decide.

[Timothy]

Well I had our meeting, and Allan was very receptive to suggestions and ideas as to how he might create a win-win (ie increase his revenue by volume rather than by value.)

We made some very specific proposals, which he valued and said that he would consider very seriously. I won't steal his thunder before he decides which if any to adopt, but I can assure people that he does want to attract back the Aztec, 310, Baron brigade and will do something about it.

[N Reg Aztec]

Fuel at White Waltham is now £1.11 / litre..... :{ :mad:

Is there any site in the UK where people can post the fuel price per litre?

N Reg.

[Cahlibahn]

Fuel prices website (http://www.thehangar.co.uk/fuel/fuel.shtml)