Question from passenger seat

[RDUBWI]

Here is the situation. Last Saturday I flew an Airbus 320 as passenger, row 5, window seat. So, I have a clear view of the engine. It is a windy day. When we make a turn onto the runway for take-off, I see a newspaper (I think only 1 sheet) being blown and sucked into the engine. We started our take off roll seconds later. The flight was uneventful and the cabin crew did not show much interest in my report.

How harmful a newspaper can be if sucked into the engine?

But it made me think. What if had seen a bird or something potentially more harmful being sucked to the engine. What shall I do? Stand up and scream? Ring the call button? (nobody will respond as the airplane is on the runway). What the passenger should do if he/she see something potentially dangerous (how a passenger can determine this is another question) just before take-off or landing?

Thanks.

[T O G A Boy]

a bird strike in the engine will definitely reject our take off roll. u dont have to do anything cause we in the front will for sure notice it.

[BOAC]

The flight was uneventful and the cabin crew did not show much interest in my report.

That is both good and bad news. Hopefully they would have told the flight deck at a suitable moment. I would expect that from my crew.

Procedures and performance are adequate for such things as birds/paper etc, and as you say there is nothing you can do in the immediate frame.

I would hope you go on letting people know and are not put off by this (apparent?) lack of interest.

[RDUBWI]

TOGA Boy,

Thanks for your response.

How can I be sure that you at the front will notice it?

I am a controller - once I witnessed an engine fire from the tower. A colleague told the departing aircraft (after rotation) that an engine was on fire (clearly seen from the tower - heavy smoke). The crew after take off were asking questions like "are you sure", "which engine", etc. - they had no indication at the front whatsoever. We could not see the plane from the tower any more, but the smoke was still visible. The airplane returned of course (for safe landing).

What about things you can't see at the front? Imagine this - you, a pilot, fly as a passenger. The airplane gets on the runway and you see that there is 1 cm of icy snow on the wing (the airplane has not been de-iced properly). What would you do?

[alexban]

RDUWBI : the same,sadly,happened with the concorde .

As a passanger ,you should tell the crew if you feel something could be wrong about the plane.There were cases when the passanger sitiing over the landing gear,heard a strange sound during taxi,informed the cabin crew,and it was discovered that a tyre had blown.You won't notice this in most of the planes in the cockpit.
And a bird in the engine won't necessay damage the plane imediately,at tests they throw dozens of dead birds in the engines to verify them (the engines :D).So it won't be evident in the cockpit,in most cases,that a bird was sucked in the engine.But it is a reason of concern,so call the FA.If necesarry jump up from your seat,yes.
Toga Boy: it's better to get all the info you can,even from the passangers,or cabin crew.You do not want to have a failure at V1 ,cause you don't notice a bird entering the engine ,doing some minor damage at idle N1,which at full throtle will cause some blades to rip up the engine,maybe.
And RDUWBI,if I'll see 1 cm of ice over the wings,be sure i'll call the FA.The pilots should be informed that the plane was not deiced properly.There were some very known accidents due to bad deiceing .It's your life at risk,even you are 'just' a passanger.
I can give you another ex about the importants of listening to all info's you get.Due to bad docking systems,(old type,not calibrated) a plane advanced too far to the gate.The passangers started to scream that the bridge will hit the engine.This info didn't get to the pilots,(crazy passangers,what do they know? my guess) so the engine did hit the bridge,minor damage to the nacelle,by luck.The crew didn't feel a thing in the cockpit.Of course,not their fault,(they followed the docking sys),but maybe the FA could've saved the day,who knows.
Better safe than sorry,
Brgds Alex

[Spearing Britney]

It may seem pedantic but if a controller sees heavy smoke I don't want him to tell me that I have an engine fire. I want him to tell me 'heavy smoke' and if its from an engine then 'heavy smoke from engine'. Smoke doesn't always equal fire and the difference can matter. BUT I would want him to tell me!!

As for pax observations, tell the crew and if you arent happy that they are dealing with the request ask to speak to the senior cabin crew member as you really are worried. Add relevant info that validates your observation and your reasons for feeling it to be important if they don't seem bothered, e.g. controller, PPL etc.

However, rest assured that we will probably have the best info at the front and if the message is passed we will heed it!

[lomapaseo]

How harmful a newspaper can be if sucked into the engine?

Sticking to only answering this part of the question.

Should be no problem for the following reasons;

* Items sucked in to the fan will no doubt be centifuged out through the fan duct and not into the core.

* A newspaper is easily shredable into tiny bits which in turn will turn to ash in the aft comrtessor as the engine powers up.

Of more concern would be balloons with membrane strength to hang on fan blades or across vanes. Even worse is styrofoam which will not even be hit by a fan blade as it is turned by the airsteam into the right incidence angle to pass neatly through and lodge up against the small vanes behind the fan.

[Snigs]

A major issue with things going into the engine is causing damage to the rotating parts (in general).

If the blades are nicked by any hard object (can be as small as a washer for example) then the nick can be the source of propagation of a crack. This crack can then grow (rapidly in some cases) and then the blade can fail.

A blade failure means an engine failure (again generalising).

So unless the newspaper was a hard little cookie, (say, "The gangster weekly") it would, as said earlier, disintegrate.

[VS-075]

I flew as pax may 22nd 1999 on Virgin Atlantic 747 reg G-VRUM when number three engine was starting up the plane was vibrating quite noticably but was smooth once it spooled up. I wondered if i should say something but decided i should not as i thought the crew must have felt it too and if there was a problem we would not fly but we did with no problem however seven days later number three engine failed i believe at V1 in future i will speak up. Very pleased the plane stopped safely and well done to the crew .

[Jet II]

a bird strike in the engine will definitely reject our take off roll. u dont have to do anything cause we in the front will for sure notice it.

Hmm - not convinced. I have lost count of the amount of times that I have found bird-strike damage to an engine that was unoticed by the crew. Then again they may have noticed it but not bothered to write it up;)

[cirrus01]

.......Agreed Jet II

How about all the time that crews will get airborne, contact their maintrol ( or equalavent) get told to contine to destination, whereupon a quite serious problem is then revealed.....????


Happens more than you would think....... :*

[T_richard]

Where do I apply for the job of "bird thrower" at a jet engine manufacturer. Do I get to pick what kinds of birds I throw, can I use live birds? .............
Sorry it's been a long week. Happy Easter everyone

[scroggs]

VS-075, the vibration felt on start-up of RB211s is common and unremarkable - and can be felt in the flight deck as easily as it is in the cabin. There is no need to make any comment to the crew, unlike the situation where you may have seen something enter the engine, which the pilots definitely can't see.

The failure of the No 3 engine on G-VRUM was not related to the vibration on start up, and it didn't happen at V1. It happened at around 100kts with a V1 of around 120kts. I was PNF on that occasion. Interestingly, ATC noticed the failure before we did and informed us that we were on fire - which we weren't, but there were a lot of sparks out of the back of No 3 as it self-destructed! There were no indications of any problems with that engine until we had come to a halt, after it had produced full reverse thrust for around 30 seconds post-failure.

[Snigs]

Where do I apply for the job of "bird thrower" at a jet engine manufacturer.

Reminds me of a story…. All engines need to be certified, and part of the certification requirements is to fire a pattern of small birds, sparrow-ish size into the intake and the engine should run on (I think that there is a requirement for minimum of 95% thrust, but don’t quote me!)

There is also a requirement to fire one chicken sized bird into the engine and the engine should run down in a controlled manner without causing any collateral damage!

The final birdstrike test is usually one of the last in the certification programme, for obvious reasons!

The story being that a certain engine certification programme was nearing its end and various dignitaries from the engine company, the aircraft company where the engine was destined, the airline etc etc were invited to witness the test!

The bird was fired in, and all hell was let loose, the engine literally exploded and the test cell was badly damaged. Not good for the engine company.

The reason, the "bird thrower" had fired a frozen chicken into the engine, rather than a more malleable fresh one!!

:ouch: :eek: