IFR Clearance question???

[mm_flynn]

On a flight back from France this weekend I had filed an IFR flight plan based on the SID for the airport with IFPS reroute acceptable in the remarks section.

When I received my clearance on the ground I was cleared direct to a VOR 40 miles east of the first intersection in the SID - with no further clearance.

As I was reaching the VOR I prompted the controller that I was reaching my clearance limit. He indicated I should proceed as per my flight plan (the flight plan he had was clearly different than the one filed). After a short discussion everything was sorted and the rest of the flight was uneventful.

My questions are

1 - Am I right that I had a clearance limit of the VOR based on the clearance I received?

2 - Given the cleared to VOR was well off the filed route should I have asked for the tower controller to read me the flight plan she had?

3 - What is the right way to work out what route is in the system when IFPS reroutes you?

[chiglet]

AFAIK, you should have recieved an ACK msg with the changed route, or at least, the point at which you filed said plan. If you filed it in France, then the ATCO had the re-routed plan, and as there was a "percieved" difference, clarification may have been in order.
We [as a Parent ATSU] have this problem. A pilot files an out and back Fpl at short notice, out is fine, back isn't, but for one reason or another, we cannot contact said pilot..all we can do is fax the message to a/f of departure, and if it's missed there, hope that the destiation will pass on the new details.
Hope this helps
watp,iktch

[bookworm]

I've had similar issues. Departing my home field, I was issued a clearance to a VOR on the coast, thence flight planned route. When I queried this routing, it transpired that the ATSU had, as a matter of course, written "IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTABLE" on the FPL, but when the route came back, no one had contacted me with the revised routing. In this case the route was over the N Sea, and since I was in a single it was distinctly unacceptable.

On a more recent flight, I noticed that even flight clearance at Heathrow, the parent FBU for most of the south of England, added "IFPS REROUTE ACCEPTABLE" to my FPL. (I was BTW, very favourably impressed by the service received. Very helpful, thank you.)

To be honest, I can't really blame either unit as:

a) most pilots probably don't care what routing they get
b) about 70% of FPLs probably need rerouting to make them acceptable to the IFPS

But I do make a habit of asking for the ACKs to be faxed to me every time now.

[mattpilot]

i don't even know why i bother filing a route, because everytime i go to get my clearance i get some wierd mumbo-jumbo totally different then what i filed. Anyone ever got a 'cleared as filed' ?

[bookworm]

Very different set up in Europe, mattpilot. It's much more difficult at the pre-flight planning stage to find a route that is acceptable. But the onus is on the pilot or operator to do that. Once a route that is acceptable to the Integrated Flight Planning System has been found, it is almost always a case of 'cleared as filed'.

[Timothy]

If you use the CFMU Structured Editor (http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.be/chmi_public/ciahome.jsp?serv1=ifpuvs) you can be certain before you file that your route will be accepted.

But any which way, is it not the responsibility of ATC to give you your clearance? If they say "cleared flight planned route" does that not mean the route that you or your ops department filed, as opposed to what the computer in Brussels determined was preferable? And if there is any doubt, should you not ask Delivery/Ground/TWR to read out the cleared route? Or have I misunderstood again? :O

Timothy

[bookworm]

ENR 1.10 4.3.1, 4.7.6, 4.7.8 make it pretty clear that the aircraft operator is responsible for passing the ACK on to the flight crew.

Oh for an ops department... :)

[Timothy]

ENR 1.10 4.3.1, 4.7.6, 4.7.8 make it pretty clear that the aircraft operator is responsible for passing the ACK on to the flight crew.So if you or I fax our plans into SC or SS (in your case) or KB or LL (in my case) AIS, whose responsibility is it to get the ACK back to us?

I think that I can say that in 20 years of professional and private IFR flying I have seen an ACK on half a dozen occasions, and those from TF, because I have gone up to the tower.

If bookie is right when quoting the above (and hell is more likely to freeze over than that he be wrong on such a thing :} ) how are non-airline GA crews supposed to conduct themselves?

Timothy

[chiglet]

At Manch FPRS, we fax back to the sender any changes.....provided that trhey have given us a "contact no" , otherwise, it goes to the dep a/f [if in the UK], so if in doubt, check
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Timothy]

Apparently by co-incidence, Biggin Ops just called me and offered to fax the ACK for tomorrow's flight.

Funny old world :)

[mm_flynn]

Thanks for all of the input. I guess the conclusion is, if the route is starting to look different from what was filed its time to ask the controller to read your full route clearance.

In my case I had filed the out and back in the UK (so the UK A/F would have received the change, not the French A/F?) and had provided a UK mobile phone number on the flight plan form - but I wouldn't have been able to receive a faxed ammended route.

The other question I had - just for my own clarification - If the clearance you receive on the ground is

"cleared direct MID below 3400 remain clear of controlled airspace" and your filed flight plan has an airways join at MID - then I think I have a clearance limit and can not proceed beyond MID without further clearance. Am I right?

on the other hand if you start in France (so pretty much immediately are in Class E) with a clearance of

"cleared direct DPE at FL080" (and no mention of "then as flight planned") do you have a clearance limit of DPE or is it implied that in the absence of further instruction you should proceed with your plan as filed?, or as is currently in the system?, or ask for clarification?


Thanks

[Sonnendec]

Well, as i see the whole point, it´s quite easy:

If you get the clearance in GND: Cleared to Paris Charles de Gaulle, after departure fly dct to XXX maintain FLXXX, if the departure is on your route, its obvious that you are cleared via flight plan route, and when you are tranfered to next ATC station, if nothing strange happens, you are supposed to continue as filed.ç

Now, if you dont get that clearance and the departure is not onb your route, then you would need some clarification.

I mean, if you filed a FP and it has not changed, or it has changed and you know it, then GND is not going to tell any more than the departure, the initial FL and thats all. Towers would be unmanageble if they have to issue the whole FP while on GND.

Best regards.

[PorcoRosso]

how are non-airline GA crews supposed to conduct themselves?

Being a business pilot, flying a privately operated Kingair, the answer is :

Use your mobile phone ;)

Good airmanship would dictate to check your accepted route with local AIS before departure. Some handling agencies will take care of that for you, as well as possible slots.

Each time am flying a new route, I write down the accepted or rerouted FPL . Very useful if you intend to fly it again sometime.

[SimJock]

A colleague of mine was given an IFR clearance on the ground in France which was almost as plan. Once airborne, he transferred frequencies and was given a completely different clearance using a navaid if the opposite direction of that currently in use.

He wrote a polite letter to ATC suggesting that such drastic changes to clearances should be made on the ground and not when just airborne. It obviously found the right person because on his next few flight all his radio calls were politely ignored and he was kept unecessarily at holds by local ATC...

c'est la vie ?

[Timothy]

mm_flynn

If your clearance includes the words "Remain clear of controlled airspace" then that is unequivocal. You must remain clear until you get a clearance to enter. If you are going South from, say, Farnborough, then I would suggest that you climb underneath controlled airspace until you get in. If you are going North, then you would have to descend to 2400'. In neither case would I hold.

The second case is more equivocal. If you are cleared to DPE at 80, that is an IFR clearance (VFR is at 500' intermediate levels) and you could be pedantic and say that the clearance limit is DPE, but, in my experience if the intention is to give you a clearance limit it is stated as such, and giving you DPE means "and flight planned route thereafter."

Some agencies, notably the French, do have a habit of sending you off to fixes which are not on your route and then forgetting about you, and not being very helpful when you ask. If they really have not given you the next waypoint or route, and either don't respond when asked, or just repeat the previous clearance, I think that the only thing you can do is to head off down the most obvious airway, in the expectation that they will soon tell you if that wasn't what they expected (this is akin to the best way of getting your bill is to get up and leave the retaurant!) It shouldn't be necessary, but you have clearly found, as I have, that it sometimes is.

Timothy

[MasterCaution]

This story draws some parallels with one reported in the PPL/IR Europe journal "Instrument Pilot" issue 33 (available at http://www.pplir.org/ ). IIRC the problem there was that an oddity in the French system was causing the ACK to not reflect the re-route.

MC.