Of Concern

[bird of prey]

When you apply for a vacancy - that is even before you are asked for interview, is that application confidential from your current employer? Infact shouldn't it be confidential full stop!

[FWA NATCA]

I would imagine that on your application you listed your current employer, common sense dictates that they would contact your employer and inquire about what type of employee you are.

Mike

[bird of prey]

FWA NATCA

So your current company is aware you may wish to move on even before you MAY or MAY NOT get an interview. Certainly they want to check you out but surely only after you have had an interview at least and IF they may be considering you for the position.

[JimboUK2004]

Holy Mackerel job hunter....

I am the man to answer this question, and aswer it truthfully I will...

I graduated last year, and I'm in my 2nd job already - to be frank I'm not happy one likkle bit. LUCKILY, I had applied for the NATS ATC traineeship last Summer while at uni, but, unfortunatley - its a loooong process for some, and I have only just found out that I've been accepted for the final interviews :p Mean while on planet earth, I need to earn a fecking living to keep the bank manager from snapping at my heals. Just so happens that I'm doing a 9-5 job sitting behind a desk, and I'm in my second one of those routine jobs in less than 6 months - I can't stand it!! So, that's why I'm prepared to take a holiday/sick day off to go to these recruitment events - and I'm certainly CERTAINLY willing to risk a potential employer ringing up! Its worth the risk - the greater the risk, the greater the outcome, i always look at it like that (obviously its not always like that, but its worth the risk to take the risk sometimes!!). I'm sure if the jobs your applying to is worth it, so just risk it.... I am - look at today for example!!! I took a sick day off using a desperate excuse so I can sort myself out with a load of visits and start getting some structure to my ATC revision....

....I'm running out of excuses now but what I'm trying to say is - "Its worth the risk"

Signing off...

Good luck,
Jim:ok:

[spekesoftly]

The UK ATC world is relatively small one. (I'm assuming you are are referring to UK ATC vacancies). ATC managers and SATCOs will almost certainly know 'someone' (or someone that knows someone) at most other units, and 'discreet' inquiries are bound to occur, even before an interview. Sorry, but that's life!

[bird of prey]

Jimbo

good luck to you too

Spekesoftly

perfectly happy with the company I'm with and thats the way I want it to remain with any 'discreet' enquiries. Sure 'thats life' -everyone knows everyone else, but having recently come in from the great outside I'm just a tad cautious unfortunately as not everyone is 'honourable'. - and that is a fact of life. A career move due south would be good for me - I was just surprised that an applicant was outed so early in the job application - generally on the outside it would be kept confidential until at least after the initial interview. After all HR are trained to pick thru our CVs and references as in some cases the 'discreet' enquiries could become judge and jury. Heard of 2 cases over the last year or so, where for example, due to chronic staff shortage and little chance of any new blood coming in 2 prospective employers never even looked at the ATCOs concerned - makes you wonder what the 'discreet' enquiries revealed. What we all heard on the drums was there was a panic at the top with the possibility of a mass exodus. Mostly good guys out there but there are those .......I guess it could just depend on who you ask.
What the heck maybe I'll just stay where I am - at least I wont have to lie about what I'm doing on my day off - or even as Jimbo said taking a days sickie - Nah, for me I hope its worth the risk.

[Legs11]

Hmm, here's a scenario for you...

1. Reasonable sized Airfield advertises for ATCO staff in Industry Journal. Okay so far:D.

2. ATCO from a 3rd party ATS provider applies. Okay so far:D.

3. Reasonable sized Airfield apparantly, so rumour has it ;) , looks at outsourcing ATS provision.

4. 3rd party ATS provider investigates possibility of bidding for ATS services at said Reasonable sized Airfield. Still reasonably okay so far :uhoh:.

5. During discussions Reasonable sized Airfield reveals details to 3rd party ATS provider of prospective new employees, including possibly, those who have just applied for vacant posts :oh:. Not so okay now :ugh:.

6. ATCO from a 3rd party ATS provider discovers that their employer (3rd party ATS provider) - still with me? :ok: - is aware of their application. Not so okay:suspect: .

Of course the dilema once it's all out in the open is does the ATCO rescind their application in the hope that this will push the Reasonable sized Airfield into outsourcing, and then hope that a by now disgruntled employer (3rd party ATS provider) will give them an internal transfer should (and it's a big one) they get the contract.

Isn't life and all its little nuances great :p :\

Of course this is all hypothetical!!

[bird of prey]

Legs 11

1 - 4 perfectly reasonable and possibly exciting news for 3rd party ATS provider.

5 - so in my lowly position, just why would they release info re any applications at all to the 3rd party. I can't see that it would benefit either party unless the deal is further along than we all think - maybe it was one of those catty moments - bring down the cost or (as you can see - chucking CVs under their noses) we could possibly be taking mostly 3rd party ATS provider employees. At least 2 come to mind who probably have applied and would look to be there for the long term.

6 - bit of a shock really, especially since at such an early stage. Would have prefered to have gathered a bit more info etc re the Reasonably sized airfield and whether it really would be right for me to continue in my application. Interviews are a 2 way thing if you get to that stage - and thats where my problem with this lies. Could be that the 'discreet' or as have been made aware 'on the table, this is who has applied, less than discreet enquiries could scupper your chances even of an interview due to a conflict of interests. I can only think that the loss of any number of suitably qualified staff would cause ripples.

But as you rightly say it is now all out in the open. Hmm What to do - maybe the truth will be shown if an interview is forthcoming, if not I just may have to wonder what was said when the Reasonably sized airfield revealed the prospective new employees details to the 3rd party ATS provider and the 'discreet' enquiries were made. Now in my other life I know what I would say - thats business folks!
The end scenario has to be taken very cautiously as transfer may never be an option. Just going to have to wait and see. Chicken and egg. So apt at the moment
HAPPY EASTER LEGGS

[Razors Edge]

Well, Legs and Bird of Prey, what a tangled web you weave:}

I would have thought the 3rd Party Provider would want to know who they may be employing should their bid be succesful as part of 'due diligence', I think that's what they call it. It would also let them know how much they need to do to bring the Unit up to numbers, what retirements are pending etc.

However as you say releasing details on applicants before even interview is a bit naughty and I would say definitly colours the water.

I think you should stick the current employer and carry on with the application if it's the job you want as your chances of an internal transfer are probably now well and truly down the swanny.......unless of course you have a loving, careing, shareing and understanding management structure:hmm: DOH! what am I saying??

[bird of prey]

Razors Edge

Heard of looking at current staffing levels but not possible prospective staff lists to maybe see if they meet 'their standards' as a precursor to negotiations. That would def sound dodgy to me. Stretching due diligence to me. If they are hired, they are hired and if the ATC provision company changes everyone gets TUPED
Yup need to look at numbers that they may have to fill, but that should be it. Then I presume the 3rd party would also have made 'discreet' enquiries re the current staff of the Airfield concerned to ascertain their abilities before proceeding further. Possibly then you could take it one stage further on that basis and those that were unacceptable to the 3rd party could have a bumpy ride after TUPE - if it all gets that far.
I or one will keep going, ultimately probably would prefer to stay with my current lot, but don't think at the expence of perhaps missing out on something I would want. Realistically that chance may already have been Kiboshed.
Management structure could be all that - but DOH!

[Spitoon]

With most application forms there's normally an opportunity to request that no approach is made to your current employer (usually for a reference) without requesting your permission.

But as spekesoftly says, it's a small business and word tends to spread. Sometimes it can work in the controllers' favour - someone who lets it be known that they would consider a move and has a good track record and useful ratings may well be headhunted. It's happened in the past and it looks like we're heading into much the same shortage of experienced controllers at the moment.

It's a bit of swings and roundabouts but there are upsides too.

[Brian81]

quote:

It's a bit of swings and roundabouts but there are upsides too

unquote.

I hope so :ok: No disrespect to my experienced colleagues, but I'd quite like to start doing the "real world" stuff - my MER expiry is quickly approaching. I've got my student 1248. Anyone knows of anything, PM me...

:hmm: ;)

[bird of prey]

Spitoon

If there was a box to tick then ATCOs could tick or not tick - that would be their choice. But from those that know usually only followed up after an initial interview - not blown during negotiations! Surely its a two way thing - any job application is only a statement of interest until after an interview where both parties can decide if it should go any further. Rapid shortage of ATCOs could be one influencing factor in not being blown too early.
word spreading is something else entirely - maybe the best route is instead of running the risk of filling in application forms we should advertise the fact that we want to move on from our current employers here on these pages - and deal with it all thru our PM.

Brian 81

hope you get a move soon

[bird of prey]

not unexpectedly didn't get invited for interview. :yuk:
with increasing shortages at current airfield this bum on seat looks to be in for the long haul - guess at least I'm working!
Headhunters apply to PMs :ok:

[niknak]

Bird of Prey

As has already been stated, there's no such thing as a secret in ATC.
Not so long ago I worked in the management side of ATC for a fairly large European aviation company.
When we got applications from atco's, either in direct response to an advert or otherwise, it was my job to sniff out their pedigree.
First port of call would be any one of the many people I know in the industry, who may know of or have worked with them.
Secondly, I'd contact the appropiate SRG inspector, who 99% would give an honest assesment.
Thirdly I'd use my experience to go through their application and contact both referees and other people in a similar position to me to get more information.

Overall, I'm afraid that at some stage or other, you'll be sussed before you hand in your notice, and it would be a pretty thick ATSM who doesn't relaise what you're up to (that said, my previous boss didn't.......).

Good luck anyway. :ok:

[bird of prey]

niknak

agree with all you said :ok: would have done all the same myself on receiving applications for a job. But in this case, the waters could have been muddied by possible commercial interests in the pipeline. Once again, it depends on who and WHEN 'discreet' enquiries are made - bad timing I think.
Enough said - continue as I am for now, loyalty to present company remains intact until ........