Cape Flying Services

[Irish-Pilot27]

Hello everyone.
I got a ppl a while back.With Cape Flying Services ,George,South Africa.I would like to hear from everyone who reads this and has done some flying with this school (good and bad stories) all are welcome.If you dont want to post a reply by all means e-mail me this is my confidential e-mail address [email protected].
Please ignore the ridiculous name but for future postings It keeps my identity a secret

[clipboard]

If you check out previous postings on this site, you will see that the school has been discussed at length. Seeing that you hate SA so much, what are your intention with this thread? Are you trying to solicit bad comments so that you can say "I told you so?"

People like you are a detriment to aviation. Rather keep your trap shut, stay in your own country and leave SA alone.:}

[George Tower]

I have just read your other post (at this point you have only made two) and I can see why clipboard has reacted to you as he did.

Bottom line is that all flying schools the world over will have people with good things to say and some with bad things to say.

SA has its problems but so does the UK, the US, EU and specifically Ireland as well. If you want to talk about racism look at Ulster!

CFS have been in business a long time so whatever the bad things that have been said the fact is they wouldn't have achieved this if they were as bad as they're made out to be. Look at FTC - that proves my point.

[Irish-Pilot27]

Clip board
I have replied to you in relation to another member and matter.Your quite the norm around flying schools so much that you bore me.Unless you have been to this school or have the must sought after jet job I dont want to hear from you.
Asto to where am I going with this thread? well none of your buisness buddy.Thats why I left a private e-mail address.

[Deanw]

Say, you're not related to Sandy ([email protected]) who first posted on this topic on 1 May 2003 (thread 88970: Cape Flying Services...south Africa) and provided his details, are you?

Besides, don't slag of the whole of South Africa just because you had a bad incident :-(

[Irish-Pilot27]

George Tower
You have made a very good point.But most of cape flying services students are non nationals pulled in by dodgy agents.If your a local when you see what your dealing with, but If you arrive from a foreign country with your heart set on training well its extemly hard to turn back.What keeps them floating is the excess of sterling paid by european students thinking they have got a better deal than back home.

[flapsnslats]

Irish-pilot

Im new on this site.But your posting caught my eye.I went to south africa a few years ago to do some flying more as a hobby.
I booked time with this school.weather was bad the week I got to George.The locals say its four seasons in one day down there.But it gave me time to see what the operation was like.The aircraft are badly maintained.Always got little but important things breaking all the time.I check caa reports for accidents now and again and that place has serious health and safety issues.Students warned me at the time to be careful.They were also terrified I would say something back to the owner.Apparently if there disatisied and are caught giving their opinions to other students he would mess them around further in their training.Getting instructors to drag out dual hours,not leaving them fly for paid time, all Kind of weird thing going on down there.Sorry to hear you had a bad time obviously the owner
is still up to his tricks.Glad I legged it when I had a chance.
Best of luck

[sanjo69]

It is sad but not surprising that more comments about his school are coming out of the woodwork.

To all who are critical of this posting and the writer's motives just bear in mind that It is not about anything else other that this school or and its agents actions that does effect the perception of foreign based students wanting to visit South Africa for aviation training, surely, a valid motive for any other genuine enthusiast interested to expose this sort of problem by making potential students aware of the pitfalls of this school

I am not related to or colluded with any other person to unreasonably submit or who has expressed their views about this school.

Today, my particular posting has now been updated.

Regards.

Sandy Young

[rasterfarian]

Interesting thread. Any comment from the relevant parties regarding a student allegedly having an engine failure at night on the 30th of June 2003 that wasn't reported to the CAA? Anything on an African student who was allegedly advised to plead refugee status when his visa expired? Allegedly spent a few nights behind bars? Six Sierra Leone students who allegedly threatened to burn the place down before they got their money back? Claims some time ago allegedly by the UK agent regarding JAR compliance? Accredited for turbine training? Alleged threats against a protagonist if he didn't keep quiet?
No accusations. Just curious.

[Alfred Kamara]

Rasterfarian from the Bahamas (with one post) ..:} It i svery obvious that you are out to stirr the pot.

Would just advise you to you do not have the foggiest of clues what you are talking about.

The 6 Sierra Leoneans was sponsored - so you tell me how they can ask their money back.

The rest .. well ... you curiosity comes from the sanjo camp.

Exposed mate ... :ouch:

[MAINROTOR]

Can anyone tell me something about the rice crisis in China?? :O

[sanjo69]

I take strong exception to the reference "of from the sanjo camp" as made by Mr Kamara, Sir, you do not know me like I am unknown to you, it would therefore be appreciated and courteous for you to respect that fact.

On the generel point that has been made, there is no dispute that he may or may not have had a good experience at CFS in George, but, surely, he must concede that there are real and genuine people out there who have had a bad experience and would be justified to have the right to air their experiences on this site to inform and warn fellow ppruners that they should exercise caution before using this school and indeed the UK based "agent"

If any of my posts relating to this school prevent just one student from enduring a similiar problem then it will have been worthwhile and most importantly, just for South Aviation.

The requirement may only be one successful (attained) court case, irrespective of its locality or origin, to highlight that there is truth in what is being said, notwithstanding, many complain but don't have the balls to follow through. Perhaps, if they did, then these experiences would not occur wherever they happened in the world not just SA but then again all these things take time to work itself out. SA aviation deserves much better from a minority of its Flying Schools!


Best Wishes


Sandy Young

[Gunship]

Sanjo relax bru - Alfred was on the course there - I am sure he knows the in's and out's as you :p

PS: The post made you quickly coming out of the closet hey :}

[rasterfarian]

My apologies Alfred. Thanks for the correction. I'll rephrase. Any comments from the RELEVANT parties regarding six Sierra Leoneons allegedly threatening to burn the place down to get their SPONSORS money back?
And since when did curiousity become stirring?

[Alfred Kamara]

No appologies needed Rasta :E

sanjo ... the closet man ... so how is the weather on muddy island ?

[rasterfarian]

Sorry Sanjo. Seems there's a case of mistaken identity here. Seems like you've rattled a few cages out there. Wonder what they're worried about? Could it be that there's a little smoke on the horizon?

[126.9]

I thought that was the way it worked here rasterfarian?

BTW, wouldn't that actually be spelled RASTAFARIAN? Dunno? Just checking out a few of my old Marley Albums... :}

[George Tower]

so how is the weather on muddy island ?

Coming from the same part of the world as Sandy I can tell you that all in all its has been pretty crappy save one or two weeks here and there. Am I glad to be back in SA....in spite of it being winter here.

Despite our best efforts for some reason us Brits will be never able to shake off the tag of "whinging poms"........I wonder why:E

[bladestrap]

Sandy, when are you going to stop whining about your experience with CFS. It appears that you really like reading your own postings. You have no idea how boring this site has become, together with all the boring comments made by your mates. Come on man, if you want to write something about aviation, find a decent topic, and if you can't, please stop winching on about CFS. What more do you want to say about CFS that you have not already said?:}

[congoman]

This thread appears to have had a long and interesting history. Unfortunately it is clear Sandy's experience wasn't just an isolated case. And having a few happy customers is no justification for having unhappy ones. Hence the prospect of other legal actions is likely. Well done to Sandy and the others who have taken a stand. The South African general aviation industry deserves better than to be represented by these charlotans.

[nyathi]

Haven't we seen this so many times? People find something better to do, maybe like running your companies in a fair and honest way!!!! (Give it horns!) This is getting boring now!! GROW UP!!

Enjoy your evening!!:ok:

(Give it horns!)http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180913

This is what this is all about!!

Ok bye now!!

[sanjo69]

I posted a lengthy contribution in a new forum yesterday (Sat 16th July) updating the forum with some public interest information regarding the latest legal class action against this school.

My previous posts, the enormous public interest shown on my own personal issues with the school, Gerald Todd and Naunton Pugh, put aside, there are currently over 40 individual, independent statements and growing every day pending with this class action. I do not know and ever met these people at all but they all share a common issue is that they all have horror stories to tell, feel betrayed and badly let down. This is clearly not a one man (me) vendetta against the school and all connected. This school has serious issues that even considering my own experience still to this day continue with the same practices. Surely, even to the hardened supporter of CFS cannot sensibly overlook this. Yes, yes, people will have had a good experience but overlooking the enormity of the complaints is quite simply and their blind attitude very kindly described as, unreasonable!

It is acceptable to realise that by own extensive posting and own well documented legal success through the UK court system against Naunton Pugh this has contributed to encouraging people to come forward with their own experience and seek legal retribution, this is of interest to anyone who wishes to use any of the services that are offered by these individuals and SA Aviation, I truly believe that. There are other ongoing legal matters against Gerald Todd and Co as I write this to you. People have a right to know how these characters operate, the pit falls, legal recourse available to them and reasonably air it in open forum on this website. Any thread posted, contributions made and heated debate on this website all comes with a disclaimer and in my opinion any post regarding CFS and Co is very moderate in comparison to others that are still open for contributions and debate.

Unfortunately, for some unknown reason and by, I assume, the moderators pulled the thread without explanation. I have attempted to ascertain the reason why but to no avail, perhaps, and I would be grateful for a reply in open forum as to why the thread was pulled. Should I not be allowed to air the thread in open forum I see no reason why people who have an interest on this school and pending/ imminent legal action cannot PM or email me and I will privately forward the document to them for their own actions.

Best Wishes

Sandy

[Jetdriver]

Simple.

You are already doing this subject to death in one thread, and now two. That is enough.

[EladElap]

*Yawn yawn yawn*

Seriously, aren't you guys bored with this yet!

I'm tired as hell about listening to Sandy & Co. whining about CFS...

Yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I for one am sick of Sandy and his repetitivness.

Look sorry things didn't work out for you at CFS, but for a large amount of people it has. I looked at a lot of flying schools in the country, and when weighing up the pros and cons, this school won hands down.

With regards to your malicious statements regarding the owner, I have never found the owner to be anything but accommodating and professional.

But then these are MY experiences and why should I go around constantly repeating them in different threads... I'll tell you why, I'm sure this post will warrant nothing more than a cursary glance from everyone else...

Sandy, stop flogging that damn horse!

Regards

[Jacobest]

I think it is time that this one be put to rest. While Sandy Young Cleary gets freedom of speech on this one and continues to give updates on this topic. The guys at CFS can’t even respond because the moderators have decided that it is free advertising for CFS. Gerald Todd can’t even log into pprune any more. I think this is a bit biased.

I also think that people have missed the plot with this one. CFS paid SANDY his money back. IT was the British agent that did not pay him his deposit back, which he fought in a court of law and won the case. CONGRATS. NOW LET IT REST.

This is starting to border on harassment SANDY. WE ALL GOT THE POINT.

DONT MESS WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

PLEASE, can the moderators NOW do something about this? People are starting to migrate to other forums because of SH"*&% like this.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Sandy got his run here because of the breathtaking, long term abrogation of the whole truth by SA schools and their agents, including membership owned and run ones, recruiting european PPL students.

They reap what they collectively sold to amateur pilots each of whom returned to europe and the UK to find how ridiculously and hopelessly limited the SA PPL is outside Africa.

We have those representing schools stupid enough to have gone into print to us here in the Towers claiming the onus is on the student to discover the truth versus the claims on their website when I personally queried the content.

Let me make this absolutely clear. I personally raised these issues, made it clear who I was, the website I run and the replies were sent to my personal email address. And if anyone wants to seriously dispute this I will name and shame. Clear?

The mote is in the eye of SA GA and not those who stand up against misselling of amateur level licence courses.

If any readers want to turn their back on an international website which has a 10 year history of getting the truth out whatever the legal pressures go ahead and fill your boots. I will not embarrass the regulars with a list of the SA scandals uncovered on this forum year after year or the distinguished list of proven lawyers who threaten us with proceedings on an all too regular basis.

Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable but it does not stop it being an issue. Just because we are talking about mere PPL training does not stop it becoming another thorn in the reputation of SA aviation.

To those mentally composing their ripostes already may I point out that simply taking a poke at one dogged, obstinate and bloody minded Brit has already been done to death if you'll forgive me paraphrasing the astounding quality of the general rebutals here. Neutral observers read that as simply avoiding any mention that 40 or so others are angry enough to take legal action and court dates actually existing.

Or is that too uncomfortable as well?

Yesterday I wrote to you with solid and truthful information about scammers trying to screw 250 euros out of applicants for Virgin Nigeria. You know that we will expose them by name as soon as we can get the information we are actively seeking from PPRuNers worldwide. Not one of you lot complained regarding that did you?

I´m writing the solid, unadultereated truth now. What sort of forum do you guys actually want is the the real question.

Regards to all,
Rob LLoyd

[B Sousa]

..........WOW............

[Kopeloi]

Rob,
I do agree with your writing. However, man who put his hard earned money for a 3 week training course in South Africa and expects to be a licenced pilot is not very realistic either!
There is no free lunches in this world and I agree that these schools should tell the hole story in their marketing advertisements.
Even so, there always will be some "suckers" who do not believe that they are not able to get something for the half price.....

[porridge]

Hi Rob (PPRuNe Towers)
I totally agree with the majority of your post of this subject and your reasons for letting it run.
However, I disagree with this part of your post apart from the “they reap collectively”:

[QUOTE]“They reap what they collectively sold to amateur pilots each of whom returned to Europe and the UK to find how ridiculously and hopelessly limited the SA PPL is outside Africa”

I am a SA Grade II instructor as well as a UK CAA Flight & Class Rating Examiner along with the appropriate UK Licences and I regularly renew/revalidate the licenses and ratings of SA Licence holders.
I find that those who have been trained by the better schools presenting themselves for test are generally of a standard equal to or better than locally trained pilots and also at a far better standard of those who have been trained for JAA PPL’s at the ubiquitous “JAR Approved” schools in Florida. BTW I have all the FAA Licenses and ratings too, and have recently completed the FAA initial flight examiner standardisation course with the FAA in Oklahoma City, and regularly test FAA certified pilots for the biennial Flight Reviews and those who have FAA PPL trained by good FAA schools are as equally competent as their counterparts here in the UK.
In the main the SA trained people are as competent in practice forced landings and all the other manoeuvres required for their renewals (which are identical in content to the UK LPC) as UK trained PPL’s. In addition their RT is vastly better than those who have trained in the US (I am also a UK FRTOL examiner so feel I can comment in this department).
The only problem SA licensees have, initially, in the UK is getting familiarised with navigating in our fairly busy airspace, but at least they have recognised method of navigation compared with the Florida trained contingent who seem to be only able to feature crawl!
Without mentioning names I have recently completed renewals on pilots who have trained at 5 well-known establishments; two of which are at PE, one at Port Alfred, two at Grand Central (not the late unlamented FTC) and one from Rand Airport and all of them were proficient and had been trained to a good standard.
There quite a number of SA license holders flying in the UK, solely on their SA licenses quite safely so the licence cannot be that limited.
You are regretfully correct that the like of CFS only do harm to the majority of SA flight schools who are proud of their standards of training and produce some good pilots.
Regards, Rob

[vaninnam]

relax relax relax.
CFS worked for me.Did my ppl , went off built my hours came back did my com ,they even refunded monies,for flying I didnt use. had a great time in the crew house.
Currently flying B737 and on my way to A340 and I have a dozen friends that completed their training there.
regards
Francois

[Hobgoblin]

Ditto. I did my initial PPL training with Cape Flying Services in the space of about 5 weeks ( I was lazy and the weather was sometimes not too great! ), had a great time and also made some good friends. At that time Gerald suggested that I look at aviation as a career but due to other considerations it didn't happen then.

However his comments about one never being too old stuck and I now find myself at the ripe old age of 38 sweating through the foul fourteen for a UK ATPL. Maybe I'll never fly the big jets but maybe someone will pay me someday to fly aeroplanes and that's good enough for me!:ok:

So, to all the detractors of Cape Flying Services out there I'm sorry you didn't have as great a time as I and a bunch of my mates did and your disappointment has been duly noted. You don't have to go back to CFS and you can even tell your friends you had a bad time but that doesn't mean you speak for all of CFS' previous students. You don't speak for me, so relax and find yourself somewhere else to continue or complete your flight training.

In short: Get over it and carry on with your life.

[Gooneybird]

Yeah, me too.
I got what I paid for, a CPL ME/IR.

[ZS-NDV]

Same here:
Had a wonderful 9 months doing my CPL/ME/IR at CFS. The team was great, the flying was excellent (all except the usual Garden route weather in winter...). Even got permission to fly up to Namibia with a couple of other students and 2 school a/c.

Gerald Todd is a super guy. Cheers Gerald! ....uuhhh sorry (again) about IUA...!! :sad:

;)

Frenchy
(Ret. C208 Driver)

[Irv]

The bit I want to comment on is the suggestion on page 2 that SA training in general is somehow poor. I spent a lot of my own money after being impressed by the standard of a brand new SA PPL turning up to rent at my UK airfield straight from P.E.!

Meeting this guy led me to finding out a lot more about SA PPL training, and eventually dig into my pockets to get SA instructor qualifications myself to renew, mentor and support the SA PPL community in the UK. I now run a free mentoring service for their arrival in the UK through a website, newsletter, and FAQ page etc.

Yes, all pilots who train abroad anywhere need intros to UK Nav and airspace, but the the training in SA still seems pretty rigorous to me. It seems to have been developed in conjunction with the Uk years ago and hence uses common terms and procedures (eg: QFE, QNH, overhead joins). It certainly hasn't been dumbed down since.


Irv

[PPRuNe Towers]

We´ve discussed this before Irv.

You know the points Im making all too well - otherwise there would be no need for your website or professional assistance when freshly minted PPL´s get home would there?

Show me precisely where I made any suggestion regarding the standard of those issued with an SA PPL would you? Which part of the word ´misselling´don´t you understand? And while were at it would the little hurt voices from the CFS Com/ME students take note. Bang the bloody rocks together guys and read the damn post I made again and let´s pick the first paragraph apart. That shouldn´t be too much of a strain should it?

Since when did CFS become South Africa´s flying schools?

At what point did CFS become a member owned and controlled club?

This has nothing to do with the quality of instruction otherwise my comments would extend higher up the food chain. Note I am discussing PPL licences only and not the com students who are so touchingly rallying to the fold.

Irv, you have studiously ignored the real reasons returning students might need such specialised assistance from you when the hundreds returning from the States with FAA licences don´t. You also signally fail to address the plight of Europeans and those outside southern England in maintaining their licence, renewing a medical and the simplest changing of types they want to fly.

Or did you chose to misinterpret the words: to find how ridiculously and hopelessly limited the SA PPL is outside Africa.?

Smoke and mirrors or a genuine misreading of a very carefully written post Irv?

Regards
Rob

[Phoebe Buffet]

I paid for a CPL/IR Multi with CFS some years back and on arrival in George found the twin in pieces, aircraft in disrepair and moral with staff and students so low I nearly slit my wrists!!. Of course I wanted a refund but was willing to forego the deposit as is norm in most businesses.

As I'd paid 50% course cost up front and was on CFS student visa Todd threatened me with allsorts.....I even got a midday visit from some 'heavies'. A visit to a lawyer in George confirmed my fears ' You are the 5th student this year (July) to come to me with complaints about this particular man and his business and yes we could fight it and win but it would cost you more and waste two years of your life'.

I renogiated the terms of the contract but lost a lot of money.The happy ending is I did transfer to a very good school in Durban and subsequently got a job in SA.

I have never and will never recommend CFS or any of Gerald Todd's businesses. In fact I always tell those interested to do a reccie trip to their country of preference before paying a cent as diff. people relate to diff. schools and environments.....my very costly lesson however I have never heard as many complaints about a school as I have about CFS and Gerald Todd.

My bad luck or bad judgement I guess!.

[Irv]

Gosh, I trod on an ant's nest there! Yes, SORRY, Rob, I did mistake the comment about the SA PPL 'being hopelessly limited outside Africa' for a comment on training, but whether you accept it or not, NOT mistaken deliberately - just me being rushed and generally swamped at the moment.

I had genuinely gone away 'overnight' with the impression that you had attacked the standard of SA training generally - ie:suggesting that rental places outside Africa didn't like the SA PPL standard. Proper reading (which you are absolutely right, I didn't do) shows you never mentioned (or even hinted you meant) the standard of training. Apologies- I shouldn't be so rushed!

BUT then you seem to have taken one of my sentences and not read it as intended ... See my comment about Nav for PPLs who were taught abroad ANYWHERE - You've taken that as 'SA PPLs'. ( If that had been the other way round, would you have asked me what part of the word 'anywhere' didn't I understand??? )

This is sadly diverting the main thread, as I'm talking generalities, but I genuinely believe new PPLs who trained ANYWHERE outside the UK (USA, OZ, SA, etc) need mentoring in the UK when they arrive - not for legal reasons, but just to be confident happy pilots in a new country. Why should they learn by mistakes? If they intend to rent at Popham I just give them a G/H checkout and if they want, team them up with locals who want to cost share and can show them around. That keeps 2 pilots happy. If they want to fly with me, we go off on some short routes to nearby airfields. This applies where-ever they learned: USA, SA, etc etc, but I find " US trained" tend to need slight more initial ground time due to need to understand overhead joins, terminology etc.

Obviously it's not part of the main theme of the post, but here's the question I should have asked if I had been half awake to notice - rather than divert the main thread, just PM me if you want:
What were you refering to by the SA PPL and 'hopelessly limited' comment?
If you are talking 'medicals' or recognition of licences, obviously the SA PPL is recognised here in the UK with auto-valdiation. I recently met two pilots living in France happily flying there on French validations, one just flew over for a renewal and medical and saw it all as a great experience, part of his fun flying.
If you were talking medicals, as well as the doctors who do SA medicals (mainly around London therefore not UK wide), the SA CAA do now recognise foreign medicals (eg: JAA ones) IF all the 'readings' are sent in for inspection - takes slightly longer, but the route is there.
If you were talking about 'type limitations' on PPLs, many of the SA PPLs I meet are quite happy at first keeping with original types for rental pipers or cessnas, for the first year or so. When they get interested in expanding or joining a syndicate, they either get a 'type' on that particular aircraft, or get a converted licence as they often have 100 hours by then and it is easier. Others are not interested in actually 'fun flying', they are using the SA PPL as a means to an end to eventually get their JAA CPLs.
If you are talking about renewals, I haven't yet met anyone who has moaned about coming down to Southern England for a renewal, they all seem a happy bunch just seeing it as part of a big adventure.

Also, (my memory is notoriously suspect on such matters) I didn't recognise the 'we have discussed this before' comment, but I get so swamped with various emails and calls we might well have discussed even recently I'd need to be reminded by now. (Unless the 'we' was general, on the forum, rather than 'we' meaning me and you).
Apologies for treading on the ants nest

[south coast]

i also went to cfs, but on seeing it run, decided against staying there for my training.

like many of you, i made great friends there, and even met the best girl ever.

but, i think people should be allowed to write to whatever lengths they want regarding matters and experiences they have had on a topic which is relative to the forum it is in.

if, like so many are saying, it is boring and has been doneto death, why do you people keep returning to the thread and reading the posts?

we all have the control of what we look at, what we read, and what we choose to double click on...

i know you miss buffet!

[ger pols]

Howizzit going Frenchy, long time no see............!!!!!

Nick, you have to be honest........!!

There is a good reason you think Gerald is a hellova nice guy .........because of the simple reason, he kept you out of jail while you allmost killed yourself flying IUA.

You know, just as well as I do, that in our days at CFS (somewhere around 1997.. man, time flies....!!) ......... more than one student was complaining about Gerald Todd's Financial management.

I sure was one of them, because of the simple fact, he would not let me fly anymore untill I made another deposit....., although I had 14.000 Rand in my account...!!

Yes I agree,...... this is and was a long time ago. ......I don't know if Gerald has changed his attitude or for a matter of fact what the hell is going on there in George right now..!!

Looks like you got your career going on there in der Schweizz, and I am happy here in the US of A , flying Lear's.

The only point I am trying to make here to all future wannebe pilots is :
Never.. ever.. pay too much money upfront.....to whatever Flightschool....!!!!
Pay as you fly......so, they can't squeeze your balls, if your not satisfied with whatsoever...!!

He, I learned the hard way....!!

Take care Guys.

Viva La France....USOFA............and keep in mind......your not much if you aint Dutch...!!

Gary.

[congoman]

Thanks for all the private messages. A class action is being considered. Buffet mentions he uses "heavies" to enforce his way. That's just the tip of it! Intimidation, blackmail letters, cancelled student visas, false affidavids in an effort to throw a student out of SA - they are all part of the MO of this guy. What's clear is that he preys on those most unlikely to retaliate. Also those who he perceives as vulnerable or ignorant. To those few praise singers - count yourselves lucky! This guy is quite a piece of work!

[ZS-NDV]

Sorry for all you guys and gals who had a bad experience with CFS. Gary, good to hear things are going well for you buddy! I'll give you some news soon but via pm so as to keep the thread on the topic.

Yes, some students had a bad experience with CFS. You give me one school anywhere where this has never happened. I'm certain that any average school has the same proportion of unhappy students. It's not specific to CFS.

Yes, at the time ('96/97), CFS did not have spotless a/c. Yes their twin was a wreck. But tell you what, the training was excellent. Ground school was tought perfectly (I didn't pass all subject first time round with global average of 97% by chance).

No Gary, I don't need to rub Gerald's back for not having grounded me for the IUA incident. I :mad: ed-up and got sufficiently told off. But we agreed on keeping me up as I was only a few hours off comm testing. The reason I'm defending Gerald is, 1. because I never had any problems with him and, 2. Because I sincerely believe he's a good guy.

I remain certain that most (I said most Gary, and that doesn't include you, ok? ;) )unhappy students are those who try to blame others (eg. the school) for their lack of skill and lack of success.

Flying is not for everyone. Some out there should test first before lauching themselves into a full on CPL.

Cheers,

Frenchy

[Gunship]

To the owners and moderators of PPRUNE and fellow regular PPRUNER Contributors:

Lately I have (purposefully) kept out of the firing line but I can not shut my big mouth any longer so excuse the bad English and all … here comes though ..

When Sandy Young started this thread he was immediately put on thin ice by 4HP. You're playing it very close to the line Sandy - especially for a 2nd post

I think the time has come that he has broken the ice, made his point, won the court case and won his cash and good luck to him but let us end this endless Cape Flying Services (CFS) / Gerald Todd (GT) and Naunton Pugh (NP) bashing.

By continuing to run this thread from one man's inputs and then with a few followers has gone to far I think. Please I have no doubt that the court was fair in their judgement and I have no problems in south coast having a problem with GT or PPRUNE Towers with this and that … that is not my point I am going to try and make here.

When I was in George I asked about Sandy and as far as I know they told me the following (verified by his instructor – who even he admitted was professional and dedicated). Sandy was allocated an aircraft and had a very dedicated Instructor who clearly understood that Sandy was on a tight time schedule.

It was also made clear to Sandy that it was not going to be easy, and once again on the signed terms and conditions, the very ones our guys signed, he signed that he understood that they would do their best but cannot be held responsible for delays beyond their control. (My son took 6 weeks – the professional institution CFS is grounded them when the wind was too strong … I know of another flight school that pushed the limits and a heap or two of scrap is the result). :ugh:

The Private Pilots Licence calls for a minimum of 25 hours of dual and 15 solo, and if I remember correct Sandy took 32 odd hours before going solo, in 17 days. That's 7 hours more dual than the PPL requirement according to the SA ‘s CAA.

Dual time takes up more time, if that makes sense, than solo time. Once the student goes solo, the back of the course was broken and the rest is downhill. Sandy shouldn't complain about what he accomplished together with the help of a dedicated Instructor and the facilities made available to him, I very much doubt that there are many schools that could do better ?

I remember an incident when CFS did not have enough serviceable aircraft for our guys on course. What did he do ? He leased in an aircraft (or two) as he said we paid up front and that was the deal … weather permitting and of course some African troubles (too little rice in the stomach)… the guys all finished except one.

Ok … now What about the 100's of people that had good experiences ?

Do you post about the 99 good flights you had with BA ? No the bad one get’s mentioned. For 2 years and 3 months Sandy Young and the anti - GT / CFS / NP had their turn to beat down a Flying School. Surely this is going on too long ? I mean just as soon as the saga disappears Young and other complainants has another story. So for more than 2 years if people search on PPRUNE Africa they will get this negative attitude from CFS / GT / NP.

Yes, as the court case swung Young’s way – he won and he made his point. Why can’t we move on now ?

Now think about it this way if we start a rumour about congoman’s Flying School (Let’s call it Wawwy Wawweck Flying school (if he has a flying school - sorry it is pure co-incidence - just an example) :E... Let’s say he flew one of his aircraft 60 hours past an MPI …. one bad mouth and then another and 5 good one's ... people like to read bad news and the bad news will stuck. I promise you overnight Wawwy’s Flying School will take a huge dent.

Now right or wrong if a thread (or THREE as in Sandy Young’s case) runs for 2 years and 3 months … imagine the damage caused ? So yes NP / CFS Europe was wrong according to the court and SY won – well done. In the 2 years imagine how much damage had he caused. All he does is laugh about it and has done NOTHING to further aviation on PPRUNE. (Explained later)

How must Mr Todd / CFS feel at this stage ? I can just imagine the damage it has caused him financially or otherwise his reputation alone. I am sure in hind - sight he wishes now that he just paid Sandy his 350 frickin pound s...

A Question to PPRUNE TOWERS (Sorry Rob mate no ill-feelings) but you make the following remark on nyati :

An interesting and valid point nyathi,

Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.

A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.

As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?

Regards
Rob

Have you done your homework on Sandy Young PPRUNE TOWERS ? The only responsible thing he has done on PPRUNE was to blemish the good name (for most of us they have a good name) of GT / CFS and NP.

Yes Nyathi might have defended his boss but what about the 37 pots of Sandy Young taking a crack at GT / CFS.

Sanjo69 has made 37 posts at the time of writing. Of those 36 was on the African Forum. Of the 36, 35 was about himself / NP / CFS or GT. The only other post was in any case also about them. So 36/37 PPRUNE TOWERS is according to my fading skills close to 100 % vs nyati’s one quarter – so why pick on him ? :hmm:

Sorry Rob mate (we had some good posts in the past and some good run abouts according to my fading skills but you are very in favour of Sandy Young (sanjo69) on this one.

I just quickly scanned another “New poster” – 3 posts to be exact. Congoman : Now congoman has made three posts this month and I have it under great confidentiality /trust and inside info from his “trusted insiders” that congoman is non other than Mr W. W. who happens to be the owner of FTC from George who is the biggest competition of GT / CFS. He has posted 3 out of 3 – all degenerating GT / CFS. I wonder why … and what will his motives be :E:E:E

Why not question him on his 100% anti-Todd / CFS / NP sentiment ?

When 4HP gave Sanjo69 leeway to make his case he answered :

This complaint is not directed at Cape Flying Services George, but, Mr Naunton Pugh, trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe).

That is not the way the two years of exposure ran ??? Sanjo69 never kept his side of the treaty …

Ok now I have it also on good authority that a certain aircraft from a certain flying school in George over flew his aircraft by 60 hrs since an MPI.

Catching the drift ??? Shall I start that rumour ? Blemish someone’s name until it get binned ? :E

This thread and the other three had done their damage and should be considered for deletion as I can start a few rumours that will blemish a few companies ... oh ... of course I will use another username (called trolling).

You might think two threads … what happened to Irish-Pilot27 ? Yeah we know it was Sandy Young. 4 posts in 2 days and he NEVER , ever appeared again on PPRUNE – all 4 posts degrading / GT / CFS. So three threads running over two years … same story same irk … (Irish Pilot features in this thread) - the Other CFS thread is now closed I see.

PPRUNE TOWERS you did not mention that one either. Sorry I am not taking a dig at you but you should have been with these threads for two plus years as we where and you surely would have seen the inside of this. Hope you understand my point and I say again – it is NOT a dig at you as a person ok ? There are a few more trolls that did their damage and left – never to post again (except south coast of course but he obviously has his reasons why he is / was unhappy)

Last but not least – a real personal appeal from the heart:

My Guns have been blazing today but I also would like to pull them back and blow the smoke away and appeal to everyone here today to respect our fellow aviators. I want to send a personal plea to you as a fellow aviator re Mr Gerald Todd. Yes, some of you might not like him for whatever reason. I have met Gerald twice, send 7 students to him (and a few more is coming) and I have just the greatest respect for him, his business, his personnel and his lovely family.

GT / CFS / NP has taken the punch now - Sandy you won – well done – let it go now mate. (Please) RIP.

I thank you all for reading this.

My best wishes,

Gunship.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Guns,

What this is about is tyros getting shafted into paying up front.

It's about folks being told they can do a PPL in three weeks and book flights accordingly.

It's about an extremely respectable member controlled flying club writing back to me in May 2004 clearly stating it's not their job to list the problems with a South African PPL. Caveat emptor.

It's revealed in Irv's post regarding the great fun of having to travel from France to the Southern UK just for a check.

Like to take a guess how many SA CAA approved medicos there are in UK and Europe and the traveling required?

How about learning on a C152 and discovering you need a type rating to fly a C150 and there's no examiner in your country or any country nearby?

And ultimately it's about the purpose of PPRuNe. The first worldwide grass roots publicity in the mid nineties for offsets in African airspace supporting the campaign by the SA pilots association.

It's every post here revealing the charlatans and rogues conning young CPL's. The bad operators, the dreamers, the thieves and the frauds. The hokey CPL schools and the outfits that never pay.

No objections to all that, the bread and butter of life on this forum is there? Caveat emptor writ large and detailed to help folks in African Aviation.

So where's the cut off point then Gun's? The foreigners coming to do a PPL? By definition they don't know aviation the way you guys do. BA, Virgin and SAA all want money up front for a ticket don't they? If that's all they know why would paying substantial amounts up front ring any alarm bells? They don't know PPRuNE exists. They can only go on the glossy ads and the websites. And the agents. Yes, The agents. Believe me mate, I've made the mystery shopper calls over a year ago.

Middle aged, kids flown the coop, some money to do what I've always wanted. Well no not terribly fit and never was any good at sport. Of course you can do a PPL in 3 weeks sir. Significant undertaking though, we'd require a substantial deposit.

And the replies to my e-mails to schools pointing out the nonsense and impossible promises in advertising and on those websites. Stating the drawbacks of a SA PPL - Caveat emptor, it's entirely up to the student to determine what the licence entitles them to do back home.

So come on Guns, is it OK in your book to sell a uselessly limited licence to naive novices? One medical examiner for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales? People travelling across Europe just to switch from a PA 160 to a 180?

Which of you think it's just fine to take large amounts of money up front? To insist on a vast balance being maintained at all times in the schools' own accounts?

Misleading advertising, ommissions of fact and detail, financial arrangements you'd never let your kids or friends undertake. You wouldn't would you? Any of you?

The truth is the truth.

Or do the ends justify the means and thus the hostility? Hours and income for South Africans.

[The Claw]

PPRuNe Towers

I think you are wrong on this one. That is what the thread "was" about. It has now gone beyond that. So you are saying that CFS is responsible, no one else? They are the only school in the world to shaft students? Everyone at this school should be made jobless because of this? So in your books eveytime a crime is committed we jail the same guy we caught before, even if he has done his time?

Sandy's posts in my opinion, are now nothing more than carrying out a vendetta against CFS, and I'm amazed that Pprune would support this.:confused:

Something many companies face is extortion, to what lengths would Pprune support such actions? Just a question?

[Gunship]

Good morning Rob et all,

Rob, if you responded on THIS (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174822&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) thread I would have had NO problem in what you are saying.

Right now you are responding on a thread that a fake troller started which has already been exposed as either sanjo69 / a troll or a friend of him - I mean it is clear to me with 8 years of moderator experience.

4 Posts by Irish-Pilot27, one asking a question to start the thread - in other words getting a thread going ... mate he is a fake and this thread has grown into one hughe fake and you support it ?

Rasterfarian claiming that the Sierra Leoneans has burnt down the place ... he made 3 posts in 2 days and never ever appeared again ... all condemning GT / CFS / NP. Another fake and you support that ?

Flapsnslats admitted he was new on PPRUNE. So new he left a blemishing remark , never to return to PPRUNE Africa side of things .... you supporting this ?

From congoman .. The South African general aviation industry deserves better than to be represented by these charlotans.

Wise words from Mr W.W. - just to cover up the fact that he is stiff competition for GT / CFS. (His next door school neigbour according to stats / inside info (and I am sorry if I am wong wally.

I am not discrediting new posters / new users on PPRUNE but I mean we all know you just need an e-mail address to get a new username and post anything you like ... so Phoebe Buffet sorry mate I for one will not justify your post.

The only person that I will truely believe has had a bad experience with GT / CFS / NP is south coast.

Call me judgemental .. call me what you like but PPRUNE TOWERS to show your support for a thread like this is a hard one to swallow for me as I have greater respect for you than you supporting this ...

I am sure you hold a bigger grudge against SA training than what you have mentioned (and obviously rightfully so).

So I say again if your post was posted under the "PPL TRAINING IN SOUTH AFRICA (MERGED)" THIS (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174822&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) thread in the PRIVATE FLYING Sub-Forum I could not see a problem with it ... but to throw your / PPRUNE 's weight behind imposters / trolls on a genralised subject that became a GT/ CFS bashing is not the way to do it. (According to me).

I have to rest my case now as my English dictionary is seriously running out :E

Cheers and thanks for a healthy debate.

Gunship

PS: Let it be ... let it go ... (please).

[Phoebe Buffet]

Gunship: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.....

Are you implying my experiences at CFS and with Gerald Todd were not real?

Are you suggesting I'm someone else?

I'm happy for you that you had a great time in George and you achieved what you set out to achieve and what you paid to achieve - I didn't but as I said in my post 'my bad luck or bad judgement'. I take full responsibility for mistakenly trusting CFS and GT and signing a contract up front but I had no option due to sudent visa requirements.

The only thing that sprung to my mind when I discovered this thread a week ago was:

'What goes around comes around'

Propbrake you know who I am and I thank you for your very competent instruction.......and I'm glad you found respect in your new workplace.

[Gunship]

Lo mate,

I tried to put it as discrete as possible : I am not discrediting new posters / new users on PPRUNE but I mean we all know you just need an e-mail address to get a new username and post anything you like ... so Phoebe Buffet sorry mate I for one will not justify your post.

All that I mean - this is a serious thread (and the others) with serious accusations and stuff.

I for one draw a line what I read and from who it is (the problem with new posters is trust and sadly that has not been the case here for a while).

I am sure you are who you are and I am sorry if I offended you in any manner.

All the best and I wish you just the best for your future.

Gunss

[congoman]

Oddly enough Gunzz, I agree with you. I too think this whole thing should be laid to rest for the greater good of the aviation community. But before it is, let's just summarise why this all happened. Firstly, this whole debacle was of your friends own making. You can't treat people the way he has for years on end, bringing Sa GA training into disrepute - and not expect a backlash sooner or later. What you sow in life, you will surely reap. "The big wheel turns," as one contributor put it. This is an irrefutable truth. He only has himself to blame for things getting to this stage. While we all have sympathy for his family circumstances - these things should make us better men, more gentle and compassionate - not harder, more callous and arrogant. If he thinks he has been judged unfairly, then ask him to look at the fairness and the methods he has employed in dealing with his staff/students/compeditors. I'm not making idle statements here - ample documented proof exists, as do the witnesses. Ironically, I don't think he has suffered financially to any great degree. He still flaunts his wealth quite openly, even though his creditors are left waiting for their money.
As we speak, three pending court cases are in the pipeline, all of which are going to cost him dearly to defend.
How about having a chat to your friend and asking him for a commitment to settle these guys fairly, and then clean up his act, so as not to bring the Sa aviation training industry into further disrepute. Maybe then we can put this whole sordid experience behind us and get on with our lives. How about it?

[Gunship]

Tx for the reply congoman.

I must just add at this stage that we are actually not friends. I purely know GT through a meal, an inspection of all his facilities and that was basically that (with LOTS of e-mails later on re our students).

I will now make work of it and have a chat to him and let's see what comes from it.

Just spoken to him and his first response was he is banned / can not log in on CFI-CFS ... no wonder the man is a tad quite :E

Cheers and tx again for the response.

Gunsss

[Gunship]

Good morning all,

First of all let me make it clear that I unwittingly put my nose into this as I saw it as a one-sided story going the wrong way for the wrong reasons.

What started as a Sandy vs NP and CFS (Europe) became a GT / CFS SA bashing.

Then on top of it now CFS's biggest competition also jumped on the band wagon and anonymously tried to bash from the side line. This is NOT The spirit that I know from PPRUNE (after 7 odd years here).

I had a very long conversation with Mr Todd.

What is very clear is that he will not post any further on this issue as he is very, very frustrated, cross, and not a happy man. Not about NP but the fact that his competition went so far as they did.

He has evidence that congoman is Mr W.W. (owner or co -owner of his next biggest competition next door in George) and as such see him as posting anonymously on an open forum, degrading his biggest competition and in person Gerald Todd.

It is very clear to me that they do not see eye-to eye - no two ways about it that this "competition" has come a very long way. I could write volumes full what he told me (and I am sure WW also has another thing or two to say).

To post what Mr Todd told me re WW and his competition willl also not be fair but the fact that congoman / WW says that Mr Todd can expect 3 court cases leaves quite a bit of worry as Mr Todd reckons he can expect a few more due to things he has been doing against him and and and ...

Gents this has become nasty - it is clearly now a ego trip and PPRUNE is used as a bashing forum with Cape Flying Services name heading this and the other thread.

I feel very strongly now that this is not the place to sort out personnal grudges and I for one will refrain from reading / posting anything more on this subject.

To both of you - good luck with your flying schools. SA (and the beautiful George area) needs good flying schools with the correct training being given to the highest standards and the most cost - effective - all in an professional capacity.

We chose CFS. You choose what you want.

God Bless.

Gunship

[61dog]

Gentlemen-
The bottom line is....do not pay for a service upfront.There are countless examples of unhappy students in various situations around the country,-but if you have paid for the full service- your chances of pulling out with the balance of your money is minimal.
It still amazes me to read how many students/cadets put the money upfront,before receiving the goods.-not good business practice.

Be wide awake.

[congoman]

Sorry to hear that it's a big fat NO from Mr G.T. But thanks for trying Gunzz. On the upside, I guess now he can appreciate how very angry, very unhappy, very cross and very frustrated he made a LOT of us feel about him.
Cheers and thanks again.
CM
p.s.
Just spoken to the "competition" and a few others.
All agree it's about time this was put behind us. Wouldn't like to see CFS self-destruct. Says competition good for everyone if the game is played properly. Says he prefers to spend more time with his family than hasselling about this nonsence. Says you would understand G.T. Says he is prepared to let bye-gones be by-gones.

[ZS-NDV]

Why is this thread not closed yet????

:confused:

[REAL ORCA]

Seems that most of us agree on that!!!!:yuk:

[Phoebe Buffet]

ZS-NDV: It would seem that some still want to see justice done in outstanding legal actions against Gerald Todd and CFS and until the courts have put those allegations 'to bed' then it's of personal interest.

Please feel free to post on other threads in the meantime.

See sister thread: 'Naunton Pugh etc etc'.

[FIDGET]

So Mr T is very very cross is he? Well BOO HOO!
Finally somebody's doing something about this "gentleman."
He's screwed so many of us over it's frightening. Well you've been caught out mate! What I can't understand is why the CAA has been so quiet.

[silverknapper]

I have followed all these postings with interest ( and occasional boredom ) since the original CFS post by Sanjo sometime ago. I have more than a passing interest - I was at an SA school which was also in the way of relieving students of their cash by dubious means. It is no secret, a search will turn it up, the school was FTC.
When FTC was first taken to task here on prune people were shouted down, and told to be quiet. And people continued to go there, and to be ripped off. Yet here people still said it was rubbish and they were a reputable school. Yeah they once were but things change very quickly in aviation. This continued until there was an overwhelming opinion against them. And true to form they folded, taking a lot of money with them. Indeed they actively sent out mails promising exceptionally cheap flying in return for advance payment, knowing full well they were on the way out.
My point? Anytime someone from the UK dares to talk badly of an SA school you guys are all over them in a flash. As though anyone could dare suggest there are bent flying school bosses over there. People are being ripped off and misled guys. I have mixed views on Sanjo, but he did win in court. What is disturbing also is Mr Pugh using his position as editor of a flight training magazine to give him some credibility when misselling products.
if you don't want to read bad things about CFS then don't click on the post. If sanjo annoys you put him on your ignore list. But prune exists, as Towers said, to expose things such as this, and to help us all make an informed choice.

[ZS-NDV]

I'm sure there will always be people that are unhappy about what they have been given in exchange for the money they diseh out. And I'm not going to judge this one or that one based on the problem they faced.

However, what I find really unfare in this (and the other) thread is that Pprune allows each and every Tom, Dick and Harry who may (or may not) have been abused by X, Y or Z, to shout out all their pseudo greviences in all freedom but there is a complete blockout of every accused person.

Why is CFS-CFI (i.e. G. Todd) not allowed to say anything?? How democratic is that??

Ok, so I decide today to mount up a story on 43rd (for eg.) saying all sorts of things (which I may just think up when I'm on the loo with no Flight International at hand).
And what's going to happen? Someone from 43rd will try and defend themselves and they also will be blocked out of the forum???

This sort of attitude from the moderators is pretty limit on my fareness scale... Pprune Towers? A comment on that?

Regards,

ZS-NDV

[PPRuNe Towers]

77 usernames from 23 schools blocked as of today.

Last week 'vinil' in the States (UKFT) and 'l'ardennais' (Hub'Air) from Belgium joined the select band. You can use the search engine to view their posts although the most egregious are now out of view.

First one to be blocked was in November 1998 and was from the UK. The last one from SA was Stephen Stark on the 24th March 2005 for launching a 350 word epic snappily titled, "CFS goes from strength to strength." He signed off as:

Stephen Stark
Former and Future Air Service Safety Officer & Operations Manager
Cape Flying Services George

Now you may well be suprised but my acute spider senses tingled on reading that.

My hard won experience told me that, although far too subtle for the average reader, this might actually be a bit of shameless marketing - along with the other tosh pouring out from that office in recent years.

Anything else I can help you with ZS-NDV?

Regards to all,
Rob

[Gunship]

Tx for the info Rob,

So do I have it right that no flying schools are allowed to post on PPRUNE then ?

If a person (like Stepen Stark and CFI-CFS) unashamedly said who he / they where - they get blocked but a fake like Irish Pilot 27 (who started this thread) - to never appear again are allowed to post inflamatory remarks just to dissapear again ??

Sorry mate something does not telly here for me ?

A fake / troll started the thread and it has ran over years ... sorry it boggles my mind mate.

Cheers and tx for your time (again) :ok:

Gunsss

[PPRuNe Towers]

Hey Guns, remember the Huey thread?

There's what you see and what I see. I made it clear when and where the usernames were writing from. Remember? Heli Ops? Believe me I didn't tell half of it but it is stored, archived and duplicated offsite. This entire site is written and run in unix - you just see a pretty pastel veneer over the top of it.

You'll see another example last week in the Alpha one thread on airlines and routes. I drilled down 'three' jokers promoting a dubious startup to the same keyboard and made it public.

We tracked the guvnor down to street level in Ayr, Scotland by systematically blocking IP addresses. As you know he's now serving life.

What we do is solid Guns. We've done it for 10 years next month. We built an audience with thousands of hours of unpaid work. Therefore businesses pay to access our readers - doesn't matter whether it's Ryanair, easyJet or a flying school. What's more important is that they can only access the readers in a way that is clearly, totally differentiated from normal posts.

Oh, and even if they are paying it also doesn't make them immune to criticism as anyone who reads outside this forum will agree. If anyone leads a sheltered life get ye to Rumours and news and read the threads today on Ryan and easy.

Regards
Rob

[Gunship]

Hey Rob - fully agree - been on PPRUNE since the beginning (and Gunss since 99, therefore I still just find it a tad strange that flying schools are banned / blocked and trolls starting inflamatory threads get's away with it ?

Sorry but that boils down to my problem.

As ZS-NDV says : Ok, so I decide today to mount up a story on 43rd (for eg.) saying all sorts of things (which I may just think up when I'm on the loo with no Flight International at hand).
And what's going to happen? Someone from 43rd will try and defend themselves and they also will be blocked out of the forum???

So CFS-CFI was blocked .. so was Steven Stark ... and most of them said who they where. - All trying to defend themselves in something they believe in.

But the thread starter was not heard from since more than 2 years ago... So what happened to Irish-Pilot27 ?Was he Sandy Young ? Was he competition of CFS ? Does he hate GT ? 4 posts in 2 days and he NEVER , ever appeared again on PPRUNE – all 4 posts degrading / GT / CFS. So three threads running over two years … same story same irk …

Re the Guv .. well done Danny - well done Pprune ... well done Gunss (think you know) - that is not what is happening here ROb - sorry mate.

Sorry mate call me stupid but I for the life of me can not see an existance of a thread by a fake / troll / competitor ... ?

Cheers

Gunsss

[Jacobest]

I promised That I would not respond on this thread again. But since people want to respond to this silly thread still, I have now vowed that for every respond to this thread i WILL now respond with the following:

HOW THE HELL CAN WE BELIEVE YOU, YOU ****, YOU ****, YOU LIE. But not to worry, the BRITISH moderator who loves JAR licenses will propably ban this reply, But I promise you this, if I have to re-register every day, I will now post the same message every day untill this thread and every other thread relating to this topic is banned or untill I am banned ( FREEDOM OF SPEECH) So Rob The Wholy, go ahead and keep this thread aLIVE. pRETTY SOON YOU WILL SEE WHAT dimocracy is all about. It seems tht you know what freedom of speech is all about. Amazing how your government is now throwing people out of country who does not conmform to your way of thinking. Welcome to Africa.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Nope,

That's your lot gunns - First post from Irish was straight and to the point. A regular switching to an alternative ID for the reasons accurately described by Siverknapper on the previous page.

I can see the exact town he posted from as could 4HP and Jetdriver at the time - it's just that I get to see much more detail. No reason to bin it then or now.

Here's an interesting search result.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=2037071&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

2001/2/3 sees the forum awash with threads from eager foreigners regarding training in SA. The place is buzzing with folks from overseas wanting to come over and train with you guys. Anyone reading at the time really must have thought your schools were hitting some sort of critical mass with the overwhelming interest being shown.

At the time Gunns you're plugging 43 and Algol at every possible opportunity but FTC1, FTC2 and Global kill the enquiries stone dead. Not Irish, not Sandy. SA blew its reputation back then - the posts are all there for you to read.

The same denial is evident there and remains all the way through until at last Rhodie steps in with a warm and generous offer of help during the final Global debacle.

Flying school enquiries, chit chat and enthusiasm died then - before Sandy started his action or Irish made his posts. Look for yourselves.

As folks in SA don't have an apparent problem with foreigners paying up front, being told they can do a PPL in three weeks, having to kept daft amounts of credit or going home with a silly licence why do you guys keep bringing the threads back to the top? Why not see if it has legs of its own and can sustain itself?

Or is that too obvious? Especially for Jaco?

Rob

[Gunship]

Hi Rob,

Tx for the info re the moderation bit but I have been a moderator myself for 8 odd years and know how it works. Sorry but that impresses my the least.

How you distinguish between two flying schools using the same ADSL (broadband) equipment on the same airfield - I do not know as our latest software will give similar / very similar IP Addresses.

Ok that's on the tech side of things.

So yo uare ok with people posting slanderous threads to dissapear and join under a false name / anothe rname again ?

Those "eager folks" in 2001 was just there as the pound was R18 to a Pound - therefore the interest.

Anyway - whatever thanks for the response - no questions answered and it seems will remain un- answered.

It is a shame that when it comes to "SA Flying Schools bashing" threads get the nod and heavy "work" put into it and so on ... I can just wonder in amazement why.

Have a great day all.

I am really finished with this now as I can not understand the PPRUNE about turns.

Cheers,

Gunns

[ZS-NDV]

Anyway - whatever thanks for the response - no questions answered and it seems will remain un- answered.

Ditto Gunss...

Sorry Towers but you haven't answered the question that Gunss and myself have asked.

It's sad to see that this sort of bashing is allowed especially without allowing the incriminated to a right to a defense. This thread should be closed as it has done enought damage.

Humm just had an idea:
As this seems to be a popular sport, anyone for a pick on another flying school?... Maybe there should be a sub-section named 'South African fyling school bashing'... I'm sure it would be very popular...

:yuk:

Frenchy aka ZS-NDV

[The Claw]

I agree guys. Pprune Towers is obviously abusing his moderating powers by disregarding a request from the majority and also by overruling the actual moderators of the "African Aviation" Forum.
This belongs in Jet Blast, rather than souring a good forum. But maybe that is his intention?

Tad childish.....but there you go!

How about examing that fine teaching establishment in Bedfordshire before pointing fingers?


Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights do make an aeroplane.

[Kopeloi]

Sure hope that this thread will be closed and moved and no new ones allowed to open. Sanjo's battle is by now well enough documented. As I wrote before, he should look also to mirrow when looking who to blame. 3 weeks is extremely short , even for a young and talented fellow. Impossible for the ordinary aged man/woman.
Please, just call it a day and close this thread.

[south coast]

i dont understand why this thread causes so much anger and unhappiness, except for flight school owners who feel they are being accused, rightly or wrongly, of bad management and ripping students off.

as for the likes of bester, whats your problem. people are entitled to have their say, you might not agree with their opinion, but hey i disagree with lots of peoples opinions.

quote:

It seems tht you know what freedom of speech is all about. Amazing how your government is now throwing people out of country who does not conmform to your way of thinking. Welcome to Africa.

please dont even go down a road of politics you know nothing about, which is quite obvious when someone makes such a ridiculous statement such as what you have....

whatever rock it was that you climbed out from under, please go back!

[SA Fred]

It's about folks being told they can do a PPL in three weeks and book flights accordingly.

Unhappily here Rob has an extremely valid point. I hope that SA Schools are not similarly marketing SA licences as equivalent to European licences in europe. I had many discussions with potential students looking to do 3 week courses in my day and I pointed out that I was yet to meet the graduate of a 3 week course. Face it: it's patheticly bad advertising.

SA Licence standards: well having validated the holders of UK, German, Swiss, FAA, Turkey and SA licences I can reliably tell you that all of the aforementioned have tried to kill me at one time or another. SA Holders seem better equipped in SA conditions however. FAA holders would be my second choice....

Is Rob out of line in attacking SA advertising? Well since we are the kings of the non-existent 3 week course I don't think so... I'd guess this affect the credibility of the rest of our advertising too.

Wouldn't have rewarded this thread with a reply but it was already at the top....

BTW Gunns, PPrune drops cookies on your machine which potentially allows them to narrow a series of posts to one "keyboard." Being smart guys I\'ll bet they use this info when it suits them.

[ger pols]

Just got back home from a nice flight...........Checked my mail.......and took a quick look at PPRuNe to see what's going on there in Africa...!!

Oke Guys,............Concerning CFS / Gerald Todd...................
lets call it a day..........!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think everyone is getting fed up whith this subject, and had a chance to say whatever they wanted to say..!!!

I agree with my friend Frenchy, all's been said and done..........lets get it over with..!!

Goodnight everyone......!!

Fly Safe

Gary Pols

[Phoebe Buffet]

ZS-NDV: 'SA flying school bashing............

After the debacle that was CFS I finished my CPL at Natal Flight Ctre - excellent school; first time pass.

I did the CPL ground school with FTC - very good teachers; first time passes and good grades.

I then did an a/c rating at Virginia Flight School - fairly good and I got what I paid for.

Then another a/c rating with Foster Aero - again a good school and rating in min hours.

The twin rating I did at Blue Chip - again very competent and enjoyable.

Instrument renewal at Lanseria - again good, especially Cecil they got it done in min hours and min cash outlay.

All these flying schools provided a good service with a smile.

Credit where credit is due.

[erked]

G.T offered a refund of 40K in the form of 10 post dated cheques when he actually owes more than 100K. The contract does say refunds at his "discretion" - but, is that fair???
Also know someone who spent their entire inheritance on a Comm at CFS. Unfortunately had an accident and now G.T confiscating the entire balance of 114K for "loss of income" while the plane was down being repaired by insurance. Fair???

[Gunship]

:mad: I find it absolutely pathetic that PRRUNE involved themselves so much into threads that can allow jack and his jealous mate to go on and on like this ... "new members" / New trolls - new accusations every day ...

To top it all : Flying schools are banned to post a response - how low can you go ... and we call it a democracy :mad:

How "one - way" can you get in life ??? Where is justice ?

Has PPRUNE got another agenda ? Is the lucrative SA flying schools biting into personal businesses here perhaps ??? :E

I am disappointed and very bitter right now :mad: !!!

This is NOT the PPRUNE I "grew up" with !

:mad::mad::mad:

[EladElap]

Just to respond to erked

Your "friend's" little accident, resulted i many students at the school having to extend their stay at the school, and paying for extra living costs because of your friend deciding it would be "fun" tofly low level along a river bed, and nearly kill himself when he hit powerlines.

I've got no time for fellow reckless students, if he plane gets damaged, then I/other students end up suffering, why because someone else decides to be a cowboy. His reckless actions cost the school and it's students dearly, and nearly tarnished it's amazing safety record (no fatalities or serious injuries to date!!)

It's fully within GT's rights to seek retribution for such reckless and dangerous actions.

But like Guns has been saying, (i'm very new to Pprune) but it is a little disheartening to be seeing such a biased attitude from the moderator here :(

[Gunship]

Gents sorry I just blew it ....

Let me just make a few points very clear.

Because I am an old member here (and boring the **** out of a few) - I think I am the Arthur or the Mather ... no I am not and hope I am not.

I have NO interest at all in CFS.

I have NO interest at all in GT other than I enjoyed his company on the 2 occasions I have met him and the e-mails / conversations I have had with him.

I have no problem with new members on PPRUNE and I feel sad that I have to always mention them.

What I do have a serious problem with (developed over two years on this and NP's thread both aimed against one Flying School / Person) is TROLLS ... (more than one username blasting away just to dissapear again). Trolls has destroyed previous forums - many of them if not controlled.

My problem is straight forward aimed at them and then the biast approach and stance taken against GT / CFS by PPRUNE. It really got me going and irks the **** out of me.

Justice is the key word.

PS: I just had a quick glance at CFS's web site and it is clear to me that they mention 21 days ... but also 28 days if weather permits .. and circumstances. You need not be a space cadet to work out that bad weather = no fly ...

I pressume a PPL takes 3 months to complete in the UK therefore the "loss of income".

Sad day on PPRUNE for me ... really sad ...

[Kopeloi]

Still wonder how big percentage from foreign students were able to complete PPL in 3 weeks?
I guess that ordinary car drivers licence could take longer...

Obviously school has a right to advertize that it "can be done" but the students should look for the mirrow as well and use their own judgement if they can!

[Gunship]

Still wonder how big percentage from foreign students were able to complete PPL in 3 weeks?

On a democratic / unbiast PPRUNE sadly you can not get an answer as the respondents are banned mate.

Catching the drift ... :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Tx for the PM's / e-mails ... if you guys just know what some people have mailed me about ... it is truley amazing.

Guys posting here under their names that .... nope I am leaving it right there.

Well have a good day all.

Lo out there to all the Flying Schools out there that can read ... but not write ... sad - so sad ... :sad:

[ZS-NDV]

Hey all,

Sorry to add another message to the thread but just wanted to give a quick reply to Ph. Buffet who said:
ZS-NDV: 'SA flying school bashing............

After the debacle that was CFS I finished my CPL at Natal Flight Ctre - excellent school; first time pass.

I did the CPL ground school with FTC - very good teachers; first time passes and good grades.

I then did an a/c rating at Virginia Flight School - fairly good and I got what I paid for.

Then another a/c rating with Foster Aero - again a good school and rating in min hours.

The twin rating I did at Blue Chip - again very competent and enjoyable.

Instrument renewal at Lanseria - again good, especially Cecil they got it done in min hours and min cash outlay.

All these flying schools provided a good service with a smile.

Credit where credit is due.


I did my entire comm at CFS in 9 months, got all subjects 1st time with 97% total average and twin rating also on first go.
Flew a total of 1.2 hours over the 200 minimum.
School, personel, management and general ambiance was excellent. Ground school was perfect and flight instruction was a breeze.

Your situation is not to be taken as a generality. :mad:

NDV

[Montana]

All right lads, calm down calm down!

[Phoebe Buffet]

ZS-NDV: I'm happy for you and I'm sure that was the case for other students at CFS too, I accept that.

It was not however my experience so I moved on to another school that did suit me and provide the service I wanted and fortunately, as I have already posted, all subsequent schools I attended in SA were of a good quality.

Perhaps you and Gunship, though your defense of CFS and GT is admirable should finally accept that some students did not have such a successfull time at CFS.

I'm quite sure there are good and not so good schools all over the world but why oh why are there so many complaints about CFS and Gerald Todd.

Gunship: Why would Pprune Towers perpetuate a thread that could be potentially libel for them?.

[Kopeloi]

Dear Buffet,
No one is trying to defend anyone. Just saying that it is not fair that these schools are not allowed to defend them selves! Secondly , some of these posts are so outrageous and written by students that should in first case stay out from aviation.
I do not understand why such an arrangement ever took a place.

[ZS-NDV]

I have never said that all students were satisfied by their experience at CFS. Obviously any place that sells something (flight schools included) must at some point have unhappy customers.
The point I'm trying to make is that this thread is exclusively targeted at downing CFS at which I had a great time and I find it really unfare that the accused be forbidden from defending themselves. That's why I'm trying to balance out the arguments.

Throughout the 9 months I was there, yes, I did meet unhappy students. But, tell you what, the reason why they were so was because they just simply couldn't make it. As it was said previously, aviation (and flying in particular) is not for everyone. You either have it in you or you don't. The problem is that some people wake up one day and decide they want to become pilots. They think that because they pass the medical that they can no doubt make it. Well no. Some just can't. And when they realise that they have spent large sums of cash just trying to go solo, they have to find a culprit for their incapacities. And who do they fall on? I'll let you answer that one...

By the way, I have absolutely no interests in CFS. I do however have great respect for GT. Yes, he is a businessman and therefore is not there for charity work. He makes money and good for him. Nothing wrong in that in my books.

For anyone reading this thread and thinking of going to SA for flight training, please, do not let the fate / incapacities for some and frustration of a few students make you think that any other school is better than CFS. At the risk of getting banned for supporting the school by a biased moderator, I maintain that CFS is an excellent school with excellent infrastructures and staff. Don't be fooled into thinking they are not as good as others. At worse, they are as bad as the competition.:E

Cheers,

Frenchy

[Phoebe Buffet]

ZS-NDV: Well said and I agree; people should be given both sides of the CFS/GT story and be able to make an informed decision on where they choose to spend their money.

[congoman]

I agree with Gunzzz. It's about JUSTICE!
To Erked - everyone, bar the legally challenged knows the answer to that one! Unfortunately you'll have to leave it to a Judge to explain it to the rest of them. Let me guess the victims profile: Foreigner with student visas sponsored by CFS? Youngsters unlikely to fight back?
Either way it's time to let the court do it's job. That looks like the only way of ending this thread and preventing further damage to the industry. It's making us look like a bunch of pallookas!
For the legal pundits like Gunnzz - a question:
"Is the truth libellous?"