Servisair to loose Air Wales handling at CWL

[SWS_airwales]

It looks like Air Wales are to move to Aviance at CWL for handling.

MY GOD, ARE THEY MAD??? ARE AIR WALES MANAGEMENT REALLY THAT STUPID???????

Didnt they get to know how **** Aviance were when they were there agents before? and now with more flights, how do they think they are going to cope??? Because there service has not got any better, ASK KLM, BMI BABY!!!!!!!!!! THEY WILL TELL YOU!!!

This is just another show that it just all comes down to money. Aviance just seem to undercut Servisair all the time, and its the airlines that get to suffer.

We all know that Servisair are not the best, but a damn sight better than Aviance. Looks like Air wales ops staff are all going to be off on the sick with stress before long!

It looks like another dark day for Servisair and Air Wales is looming..................................................... .

GOOD LUCK Air Wales!:(

[BEST L/CONTROLLER]

Good to know that Aviance are **** at other stations and not just at LBA..!!

CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[speedbird_heavy]

I hope not as 6G make up most of our flights. I can remember when KLM went to Aviance because servisair raised their prices at Rotterdam. We were a 5 crown station at the time. Anyhow quite a few redunancies and people having to re-apply for thier jobs etc, etc..................

[FinalsToLand]

Good to know that Aviance are **** at other stations and not just at LBA..!!

I've neva had dealings with anyone less professional than aviance southampton.

No offence to anyone who works for them there, i dont blame you personally, i blame the company & their inability to offer suitable training for their staff.


F.T.L

[speedbird_heavy]

So who does that leave Servisair with now?

Everyone apart from BMI, KLM, Air2K.

Technically Servisair will still make money from them as Airway Handling load all the aircraft at CWL

[redfield]

FinalsToLand: I agree with you about Aviance at Southampton. They're nothing short of pathetic when it comes to anything to do with load control or similar. Even airlines' ops departments make comments to this effect. It's a shame that money rules the roost but some airlines seem willing to pay less for handling without considering the quality of handling that they're receiving.:(

[Awyrennwr]

Not good news for Servisair CWL but there is enough work to keep them busy over the summer season they will probably just slow down the recruitment.

There is a rumor circulating that unless Air Wales settle their account with Servisair before the end of the week. (3 months behind with payments). Servisair will cease handling Air Wales with imediate effect. I can't see Aviance being able to pick it up at that short notice (up to 17 flights a day).

It has taken Servisair the best part of a year to get good at handling Air Wales, who are a difficult airline to handle, due to the fact that there is no known ground handling manual, their ops staff aren't the best in the world by a long shot, they have turnaround times as short as -ve10mins!! (hmmm great schedule), and a continuous stream of ATR's coming in to Cardiff with numerous tranfers wich have to be made airside and fast.

By switching to Aviance they are going to loose the experience of Servisair and be right back to step 1, but this time with 5 ATR's instead of 2.

I personally think, as this move comes as Airwales are making code sharing deals with BMI baby, BMI are bullying them into going to Aviance (Part of the BM Group) in order to maintain these arrangments. This also comes in the face of speculation that BMI baby will withdraw from cardiff by 2005.

Sorry to rant on a bit, but I can't belive an otherwise succesfull little airline is going to make such a big mistake, they are going to get a big shock.

[speedbird_heavy]

Ok first off we have not lost the contract yet. They have not renewed it and put it up for tender. There is a also a rumour that Aviance have made a bid that is half that of Servisair. How Aviance are making money at Cardiff is beyond me.

I have spoken to Air Wales staff today and they think that the decision is a stuipid one. At the end of it, it proberbly comes down to GPU's. Servisair have 3 of the worst GPU's in the country. Come 1900 when all four aircraft decend upon us, they all want GPU's. One is always used on Britannia's 757 evening arrival leaving 2 for use by other airlines if they work. At the moment Air Wales have leased 2 GPU's from Aviance.

If or when BMI pull out, I personally feel that Aviance will go too. KLM are rumoured to be coming back to Servisair and with one Air2K flight per day in the summer they just wont be making money. Dont get me worng, they have some great staff at Cardiff and one or two ex Servisair staff who moved with KLM.

Hopefully we will know either by te end of today or the week.

[nosewheelfirst]

Servisair still have KLM at Glasgow, for some reason I have yet to find out

[surely not]

Rumour is a very dangerous thing isn't it.

aviance is wholly owned by the Go-Ahead Group.

Go-ahead group bought Midland Airport Services and British Midland Ground handling back in 2001 (ish) and along with GHi they form the companies trading as aviance. Reed Handling was added shortly afterwards.

I have experience of both aviance and Servisair at CWL and have found them to be fine if they are clear as to what level of Handling is required. They have both been known to have off days and staff problems but overall I never felt that one was significantly better than the other.

For a Servisair employee (?) to whinge about being undercut in the market place is unbelievable!!!!! Historically The Undercutter was always the position of Servisair. Now you know how others felt.

What may well have happened is that Servisair have asked for the greater INCREASE in rates, making them more expensive than aviance. Certainly there does appear to have been a new commercial realism from both companies recently.

[cwllpl]

i agree with surely not, for servisair to moan about undercutting is a joke, after the stunts they pulled to get aviance to pull out of lpl.

undercutting aviance for easyjet, offering free unlimited ground power usage, free stand and hanger tows.

then when air wales came in, under cut them by 50% to get aviance out.

and still say they are not loosing money, and as per usual, they have spent up this years budget, and it is only 2 days into it. what does that tell you. it is servisair that are **** not aviance!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[gobfa]

Bull Sh!&e, Servisair Budget year runs Jan - Dec,.

Only change they have performed on budgets this year was to move onto calendar months, rather basing each month on a 4,4,5 week cycle.

If you need any further clarification on this subject before posting further comments, feel free to ask

[surely not]

what is true Gobfa is that Servisair have been told to become more financially aware by their French owners. More than anything this should result in each base being expected to make a profit. SOme bases will find this very hard to achieve quickly.

Interesting times ahead methinks

[matesmate]

With reference to the on-going fiasco between Servisair and Aviance and the Air Wales contract.

In my opinion Aviance are a bunch of money-grabbers that just seem to "pounce" on any airline to make their business profitable. It was only two years ago when Aviance announced the closure of their Cardiff base in a profit making move.

Low and behold we had the arrival of BMI baby and (shock) Aviance had their contract for handling. We must remember and re-call when Aviance handled Air Wales two years ago and the mess they made of that with just 2 Dornier 228 aircraft - how are they going to cope with five ATR and 85 flights a week ??????

Most of them have difficulties doing up their shoe laces !

Servisair were awarded the Air Wales contract last year (yes we know that they are not 100% there) but compare them to Aviance and what they have done for Air Wales over the last year. My resources say that Servisair can now sell Air Wales tickets at CWL and the staff are very helpful and have built a good rapore with the airline

You just need to look at CWL and see how the "poached" airlines are being treated by Aviance, such as KLM, AEA, BGH to name a few. A majority of the time you will just see a queue stretching for miles, with one agent behind the desk spending most of her time on the phone as she cant remember what flight she is checking-in.

Not that I dislike Aviance, it is just that the whole game stinks !

[SWS_airwales]

QUOTE:

what is true Gobfa is that Servisair have been told to become more financially aware by their French owners. More than anything this should result in each base being expected to make a profit. SOme bases will find this very hard to achieve quickly.

Interesting times ahead methinks

____________________________________________________

Isnt this normal business practice? What businessess are not being told to be more 'financially aware' these days? It seems most, except Aviance, who seems to be prepared to handle airlines at a loss . Who is going to last the longest,

A) Aviance, which just handle airlines at a loss,

or

B) Servisair who is such a tight market now, and who is owned by shareholders , are now not prepared to handle at a loss?

You can see each others point of view, Aviance are going cheap to get the business from Servisair and hopes they pack there bags and leave, and Servisair are trying to maintain their handling rates to survive and hope old customers stay and support, hoping Aviance will go bankrupt and then Servisair will pick up some of their business.

Who do you think will win?

Interesting times ahead, oh yes!

[gobfa]

Agree with your comments SWS Airwales and Surelynot, the axe has already fallen on one station in last few months, my post was just to correct inaccuracy of the Servisair Budget process made by cwllpl. My initial thoughts on his comments about being 2 days into the FY were "Have sex with myself" I must have been doing it wrong for the last 15 years.

I also notice we have not seen a response to disprove my comment, but there again why let the truth get in the way of a inter company rivalry.

[speedbird_heavy]

Any update on the contract??? Have Servisair won it back???

Also I agree with Matesmates.

[matesmate]

Cheers speedbird, No news as yet holding in the balance but i think we all know what the outcome is going to be.

Betty is on the case...................................!

[LandingFee]

Well its confirmed that Air Wales have been bullied back to aviance(who don't even deserve a capital "A") Just as Servisair(who do deserve a capital "S") were making somthing of the mayhem and lack of organisation that Air Wales provide.

Truth of the matter is that Air Wales management were scared to stay with Servisair despite the pathetic attempt that aviance made of handling a couple of dornier 228's. With 5 ATR's they wont know whats hit them, they wont know where to look.

From what I have seen Servisair have made Air Wales at Cardiff and a return to aviance will only loose the good reputation that was starting to emerge.

So a merger with a failing lo-co version of BMI will see the end of effective handling for AWW and when BMI eventually pull out of CWL Air Wales will be left with the **** that is otherwise known as aviance.

I give it a year before AWW are begging Servisair to take them back.......GET ON YOUR KNEES!!!!!

*Sorry About The Naming - - Deleted Now*

[speedbird_heavy]

So does that mean that Servisair are refusing to handle AWW un-till their account is settled???

[LandingFee]

Apparently not yet, If they pay they will get to the end of April, untill then Servisair can pull out with no notice what so ever!!! I'd love that to see that happen.

[matesmate]

Yeap indeed sad news for Servisair but even sadder news for Air Wales. Give them at least a week with "aviance" and watch them realise their huge error !

I agree with Landingfee regarding the good effort that Servisair have provided Air Wales over the last year, infact it is down right rude to think that they will receive the same service from aviance. A good example being when I returned home on a BMI baby flight from EDI and had to wait for nearly 25 minutes on stand until an agent arrived at the aircraft, the crew were so embarassed the captain made an announcement advising the passengers of the situation !

Are Air Wales under the impression that they are going to receive "sterling service" - I THINK NOT !!!!!

Lets just hope that BMI baby clear off and a decent airline with a decent handling agent takeover, roll on Easy Jet & Servisair

Keep your chins up Servisair, the wind is about to change at CWL !!!

[speedbird_heavy]

Apparently not yet, If they pay they will get to the end of April, untill then Servisair can pull out with no notice what so ever!!! I'd love that to see that happen.

Yes it would be intersting because I dont think Aviance have the staff or facilities yet to cope with all those flights.

Still its one less now they have axed the BRU route due to "Dwindling passenger numbers".

So when is the KLM contract due for renewal???

[cwllpl]

gobfa.

my appologies, i thought that their financial year was apr-apr. but still, spending your buget in 3 months is still not to bright.

[SWS_airwales]

Its a bad day for Air Wales, Servisair and Aviance

Good luck air wales, have a good summer, we'll see you next winter!!!!

[redfield]

I've mentioned this before but it's a shame that some airlines seem to be willing to be handled by agents simply because they're the cheaper option, regardless of the standard of handling they will receive. Britannia, on the other hand, are exactly the opposite: they recently signed a ten year contract with Servisair. Just goes to show, some airlines to understand that they get what they pay for. As for CWL, a disorganised airline (that would be Air Wales) being handled by a disorganised agent (that would be aviance). Oh Gawd!:uhoh:

[SWS_airwales]

Too right redfield

True, at least we can depend apon are decent airline customers, Britannia, My Travel, Air France who base their business on giving good service too. Hopefully Air France will now kick KLM up the arse who seems to dwindle away from Servisair!

Servisair is set to stay, so keep handling at a loss Aviance, we will see who lasts the longest. What they seem to forget is, Servisair are the 100% ramp operators and the only Landside/Airside Cargo operators at CWL, so we just dont only depend on the general ground handling contracts, as we make money from every airline anyway.

Servisair was there before Aviance, and im sure Servisair will be there when Aviance are long GONE...........!

[Ckin Gal]

hi
i think i'll have to visit cwl. As i've worked for ex midland station that then became aviance, it'll be interesting to see how the others work.
admittedly we are not as large scale as other bases and maybe that's why we try the personal line.
Come and visit won't you before you bash all stations and if you think we're just as bad then continue.

[LandingFee]

Amazing isn't it that comments from "2XUS" have disapeared?? ummm do I think that it's because someone could complain about something to someone...............I THINK SO!!!!!

[opsguy10]

Having worked with both aviance and Servisair at CWL in a position to liase between my ex airline and handling agent I can say both were very good. We swaped to Aviance and ok there were some teething problems (we were a new airline in a new base aswell) but avaince soon pulled round giving us a very good OTP. They have a very friendly team with a very good manager who is very dedicated in his job. So its just down to buisness if one person offers the same job for less money then your goin to take the option to save money.

[LandingFee]

I agree with the friendly staff bit, Everyone at CWL gets on. I shall not comment on the rest of your post.

And who would this new airline have been???

[redfield]

There's at least two threads on this site at the moment about the quality of Aviance handling. Are there any Aviance PPRUNE'rs out there who want to have thier say? If you think we'rer being too hard on you maybe you should say why......

[surely not]

In various jobs I have had dealings with several Servisair stations and 3 aviance stations.

There is a right load of old cods being spoken about how great Servisair are as a whole. They are poor at STN, average at LGW, very average at GLA and have had the nickname Circusair for ages because they were so poor.

At LGW they have always been very low cost in their charges to the airlines, but then the service has also been low at times.

aviance have had growing pains for sure, and the reason they were going to leave CWL was due to it being loss making. The contract they had with BMI was not good for them. That was changed and CWL is now a good base for them.

aviance at LGW are shedding contracts as they look to ensure that they can make a profit. Any airline that doesn't earn enough has been asked to pay a significant amount more.

Servisair is doing the same at LGW

Wise up guys, there is enough work for all, the important thing is that resource is sufficient and that a profit is made. I still believe that it is more likely that Servisair hiked the Air Wales fee up more than the aviance offer rather than aviance undercutting.

[Tranceaddict]

QUOTE from Surely Not

"There is a right load of old cods being spoken about how great Servisair are as a whole. They are poor at STN, average at LGW, very average at GLA and have had the nickname Circusair for ages because they were so poor"


Would you like to expalin the reasons behind you sweeping statment?

I have dealt with Servisar at STN for over ten years and have found everybody there friendly and helpful. I agree that when they were handling FR they were always overstreched, but as soon as that contract went the moral, performance and general attitude improved dramatically.

They have constantly given excellent on-time performance and everbody I know has a good attitude and a smile, which is worth it's weight in gold in this industry.

I have also had dealings with them in LTN and LGW, and have usually found the same "can do" attitude.

All ground handling agents are under pressure and have bad days, but Servisair are certainly the best of all I have dealt with over the years.

Quote from Redfield

"Britannia, on the other hand, are exactly the opposite: they recently signed a ten year contract with Servisair"

100% agree with youur comments, but it was actually a 5 year extension to the existing contract that BAL signed, without even going out to tender, which just goes to show how much faith they have in Servisair.

Handling BAL for the last 40 years must account for something!

[SWS_airwales]

Yes, Hey HO, we love Britannia!

And im not sure who Air Wales think they are now they operate code share flights for BMI baby, the way they act you would think they are carrying BA pax! for some reason now they expect priorty, WRONG AIR WALES!!!!

your only picking up the flights BMI dont want!:ok:

[Taffair]

Who do we think we are?

we are a customer of servisair....we therefore expect to receive the service that we pay for and which servisair are contracted to provide. (and.....yes the account is paid up to date)

The contract with servisair expired on 31st March.....and servisair neglected to invite us to renew until we asked in late March if we could expect a continuous service.....the response......'sorry we forgot'.

The contract was extended on a monthly renewable basis while quotes were sought from servisair and aviance.

Aviance won the contract......so what do servisair do?.....you got it ....undercut with a ridiculously low quote. Too late I'm afraid deal is done.

The whingeing in here from servisair staff is pathetic (as is the standard of their service).

Circusair at CWL would be a better and more efficient operation if the entire staff were replaced by chimpanzees.

Taffair :hmm:

[redfield]

Taffair: If you're going to reduce yourself to pointless insults, I suggest you give some reasons for them. I was critical of Aviance earlier in this thread, but I said why, I didn't just arbitrarily say "Aviance are c***" which is what you've done concerning Servisair in CWL. From what I've heard from handling agents around the country, your airline isn't exactly everybody's favourite and most of your comments are more applicable to your airline than to ANY handling agent, so with particular reference to the chimpanzee comment, I think you should consider putting your own house in order before you earn the right to criticise anybody else. :mad:

Taffair: And another thing. If the handling contract with Servisair expired on March 31st, what the heck is Air Wales doing leaving it until "late March" to "ask about continuous service" from Servisair? isn't it the airline's responsibility to attend to issues such as this? Any other airline that I've ever worked with makes sure that contracts are signed and sealed long before the end/start of a old/new contract. Is this a new policy that Air Wales are trying to introduce into the aviation industry? So, again, get your own house in order before shooting yourself in the foot by highlighting your own company's failings and making a bit of a wally out of yourself.:mad:

[Taffair]

I think my post made the circumstances surrounding the reasons for terminating Servisair very clear.

Hardly arbitrary insults.

If Servisair had done the job properly they would have retained the contract.

There was zero pressure from bmibaby, who only utilise one of the five ATRs for four departures a day.

This is of course a site for professional pilots and not the minimum wage, pond-life types that servisair employ, so I will make allowances for the intellect displayed by most of the contributors which is compatible with a level I would expect from a single cell life-form.

Taffair
;)

[surely not]

If I worked for Air Wales I would feel delighted to have changed from them since it seems the Servisair staff hold Air Wales in such low esteem and slag them off on a forum open to all. Very professional boys and girls.............NOT!!!

[SWS_airwales]

Taffair

What about the pond life air wales and aviance employ? got any comments on them?

AWW's reasons to S'Air for not renewing contracts has just been contradictid by yourself......Lack Of Communication AGAIN!!!!!

If you think servisair are ****, cant wait to hear your comments on the 2nd of may about aviance!

[Taffair]

SWS-airwales.....I know who you are, and who you work for.

Grow up son

Hey ho ;)

[redfield]

Taffair: I hope the moderators of this site delete your recent comments as I feel they are totally inappropriate to say the least. As you say, this is supposed to be a site for professional pilots, yet your remarks are probably the most unprofessional, hypocritical and cowardly remarks I have ever read. In your last two posts you claim not to have posted "arbitrary insults," yet you call Servisair staff "chimpanzees" and then in response to my post you refer to them/us and ME as "pond life" and a "single cell life-form." I refuse to lower myself to your level of puerile drivel and I would hope that anybody else who works for Servisair will agree with me that your comments are not worth arguing over.:ok:

[LandingFee]

Totally agree with RedField.

AWW if you have nothing adult like to say I suggest you don't say anything at all!!!

Good Luck to AWW, Just hope they get their act together!!!

P.S TAFFAIR - - - Silently threatening ppl will get you no where!!!

Maybe you should grow up SON!

HEY HO

[Taffair]

well....it's down to intellect and interpretation again. If you care to read back.....I did not call servisair staff chimpanzees, I merely raised a question as to whether replacing the staff with the aforementioned primates would bring about an improvement.

As regards pond life....I think you'll find I referred to contributors to this thread,and not servisair staff.

All down to braincells really, that my dear fellows is why I have 4 gold bars, a big fat pay check and get addressed by you as sir.

Taffair :p

[speedbird_heavy]

This is of course a site for professional pilots and not the minimum wage, pond-life types that servisair employ, so I will make allowances for the intellect displayed by most of the contributors which is compatible with a level I would expect from a single cell life-form.

So why are you posting on this site??? Surely there is a forum for "Wannabe's".

By the looks of this thread, some Aviance members of staff have got wind of this thread and are hiding behind that wonderfull thing called the internet to slag off servisair. I can tell you all now that the genuine servisair cardiff staff have not made any adverse comments about either air wales or aviance. Most of the "bitchy" comments were made by members of this forum who are from various parts of the country. This thread is also getting out of hand now and I think its about time that we just let it all go.

[Eira]

I wouldn't comment about the individual handling of an airline, however Servisair is far from the paragon of virtue they seem to be making out here at CWL.
I believe in the adage " pay peanuts get monkeys"
Anyone who has ever been half decent with Servisair at Cardiff gets posted out to the likes of Gatwick etc , staff often seem to be short term with little continuation.
We encounter far too many problems each day from both handling agents at CWL but we garner more difficulties currently from Servisair.
This of course is always led from the top, I have encountered the Servisair staff being treated quite appallingly by their " management" poor morale never leads to a good service. I would not like to be working for Servisair right now with losing the Air Wales contract as I am sure the local management is looking for scapegoats.

[redfield]

Eira; You're right. Half decent staff who work for handling agents usually go onto better things all too soon. That's why there's so little experience on the ground within handling agents. You can't expect people to work for x pounds an hour if they can get 5x somewhere else!:ugh:

[surely not]

I think the Servisair staff should remember that slagging off your customer is not very clever. I certainly would remember that if the next time around the 2 competing quotes were close.

The comments show immaturity and lack of judgement.

The reason BY have been with Servisair for 40 years has had a lot to do with the close contacts between the 2 companies including, I believe, a monetary interest.

You lost a contract, well so be it. Now grow up, improve your act and make sure you don't lose any more

[LandingFee]

Judging by the previous comments from AWW staff, its not the Servisair staff who need to grow up

[surely not]

Speedbird it is very poor form to name people other than by PM. The only saving grace is it is unclear to whom you refer!

[flower]

I didn't think we referred to people by their names on these forums, it is extremely bad form.

[speedbird_heavy]

Ok I'll hang my head in shame. Post deleted :(

[Taffair]

I agree, extremely poor show. To be expected though from such rabble.

Taffair :hmm:

[SWS_airwales]

ITS STILL THERE SPEEDBIRD!!

[speedbird_heavy]

Should be gone now.

[TwinAisle]

On the subject of naming people - I suggest Landing Fee has a look at one of his posts on page 2 referring to a specific individual by name, before that individual brings down the wrath of Mssrs Sue, Grabbit and Run, Solicitors at Law, upon both Landing Fee and PPRUNE....

Am I right in saying that this thread boils down to which handling agent at CWL is marginally less appalling than the other? If so, a plague on both their houses. TaffAir is right - 6G is a customer, they should get what they pay for, and if they can't be provided with that service, they should be told why not, not just let down. As for the contract point, I have to say that it is very very poor that Servisair didn't spot that the contract was about to expire..... if I was a Servisair account manager, I would be expecting a P45 soon over an oversight like that.

TA

[skyrabbit]

I quite agree Twin Aisle. I have already asked the mods to edit the post in question, seems our legal friends will have to take over.


bunny :ok:

[speedbird_heavy]

6G is a customer, they should get what they pay for

But from reading a post at the beginning of this thread and I quote from Awyrennwr's post:-

There is a rumor circulating that unless Air Wales settle their account with Servisair before the end of the week (3 months behind with payments)

So what service did Air Wales "Pay" for in those 3 months???

Looking at it now I am glad Air Wales are going to Aviance. Yes I will miss their (flight) staff but I wont miss their schedule.

Just to prove how incompetent some (not all) Aviance staff are at CWL, they managed to delay the 6G/BMI ORK flight by boarding a BMI AGP flight through a domestic gate and not an international gate. WE HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL PIER FOR A REASON.

Anyhow good luck Air Wales. Now can we all just go down the pub for a pint???

[LandingFee]

Legal proceadings???? You sad sad people.
A bit a friendly banter gets out of hand and you want to sue us all. I have edited my comments on P.2, And I admit that I should not have named names, I was wrong. But You AWW lot are just as bad as us lot.

Your case wouldn't stand up in A Courts Furniture Store nevermind The Courts Of Law.

And I agree with Speedbird and think that this has all got out of hand and that it should stop NOW!

So what pub is it then?

[SWS_airwales]

Just one more point:

Quote from Taffair:


Aviance won the contract......so what do servisair do?.....you got it ....undercut with a ridiculously low quote. Too late I'm afraid deal is done.

________________________________________________

Servisair's final offer was no where near as low as the amount Aviance won the contract for

________________________________________________

Quote from Taffair:

The whingeing in here from servisair staff is pathetic (as is the standard of their service).

__________________________________________________

Would you like to share with us Taffair any experiance of a 'pathetic standard of service' that you have experienced from Servisair?? It would be interesting to hear, very Interesting
____________________________________________________
Quote from Taffair:

Circusair at CWL would be a better and more efficient operation if the entire staff were replaced by chimpanzees.
________________________________________________
A fine quote coming from someone who works for 'Air Wales'. look at your own company first mate before making judgements on anyone elses staff!
________________________________________________
Yet another quote from taffair:
All down to braincells really, that my dear fellows is why I have 4 gold bars, a big fat pay check and get addressed by you as sir.

Oh big deal your a pilot, WOW. obviously with very low maturatly levels though that have been shown through your previous posts in this thread. Dont forget that you wouldnt get into the skies if it wasnt for ground staff, shouldnt it be that we should all work together and not think that one is better than the other? We may call you sir, but do you think we really mean it?...........?


____________________________________________________

[speedbird_heavy]

We may call you sir, but do you think we really mean it?...........?


Which pilot's do you call sir??? I dont call any Sir. They dont desrve the title. If you ask me, the pilots should be calling us sir/ma'am. Skyservice managed it last year but then again their ego's were not as big as some British pilots. :ok:

[TwinAisle]

Have to say, SWS_airwales may have the handle of an insider, but there is just about no fact in his posting.....

A few facts, like them or not:

"Servisair's final offer was no where near as low as the amount Aviance won the contract for"

Wrong. Taffair was right.

"Would you like to share with us Taffair any experiance of a 'pathetic standard of service' that you have experienced from Servisair?? It would be interesting to hear, very Interesting"

How about this? A 6G a/c radioed its SSR and fuel lift to Servisair at 1850, with an onstand time of 1910, for a 1930 departure. Servisair appeared at 1950 - and have admitted their error. As for paying for it - assuming that you are right (doubt that) and 6G haven't paid up - can you blame them for service like this? If they have paid up (more likely) then apologies are in order I think...

LandingFee - please read what I wrote. Neither I nor SkyRabbit threatened to sue anyone - nobody on this thread did. We both pointed out that OTHERS may wish to if they were named on this site.

TA

[Taffair]

Twin Aisle......I agree with your suspicions about SWS_airwales being one of ours......his phraseology reminds me of someone in the Swansea office.

Might have to have a little chat ;)

Hey ho!

Taffair :E

[LandingFee]

Regarding the above event:
If I recall correctly there were another 2 or 3 aircraft on the ground at this time of which 2 were delayed due to "operational reasons" also i believe that you bend some facts in the event. Can't do everything at once!!

SWS OPS have provided us with some corkers as well
Would you like me to describe some?

If you want to write some critisism on delays wait until aviance get their teeth into you!!

A Quote from the latest IATA delay coding list:

"97-
97 MI Industrial Action Within Own Airline
98 MO Industrial Action Outside Of Airline
99 MX Other
NEW: 100 AV Airline Handled By Aviance"


LF

[speedbird_heavy]

How about this? A 6G a/c radioed its SSR and fuel lift to Servisair at 1850

Why did the aircraft radio its fuel uplift??? Servisair dont need to know that as 6G flight deck complete their own loadsheets. Infact when we first started handling 6G I used to ask the engineers or flight deck for the fuel uplift just for my report's and it was like trying to get blood out of a stone. So i'm doubting the truth behind your statement.

Yes we have had aircraft radio that they were on stand but it was only because the aircraft did not radio us with an ETA or we were not informed that the aircraft was on approach by Cardiff tower and I cant see us sending anyone out to an aircraft 30min late. Ok there may be one dispatcher running around between 4 aircraft in the evenings but again that is down to the schedule involving all aircraft arriving and/or departing with in 1 hour.

As for the lack of service being provided, can you explain exactly what was missing from this service. I await your reply.

[Taffair]

I recall the above event quite clearly as I was the Captain of one of the three aircraft. All were delayed.....all were serviceable.....all had been fuelled.....all had been catered....all had crew on board...so?....what went wrong?

Servisair hadn't brought the pax to any of them.

There were no Britannias, no Ryanairs, no My little pony.....just three of our ATR's.

Three skippers on radio to Servisair.....all being fed a different set of excuses and lies.

Face up to reality guys........you are useless.

The guy on the radio even told me the delay was due to my aircraft being late on stand......I'd told the dispatcher I was ready for pax 40 mins earlier!!!

Accept that you have lost the contract for the fact that you failed.

[speedbird_heavy]

As I have said, i'm not worried about loosing the contract. In-fact I am relieved. No more aircraft swaps with no notification, no more last minute cancelations, or delays. Granted there have been none lately.

So Taffair, convince me that you are a captain for 6G..........From your posts I would say that you are either an Aviance employee or a "wannabe" using the anonymity that the internet provides to make yourself look good and feel important. I dont know of any 6G captain with an attitude like yours (although I do know of a second officer who thinks he is a captain. Yourself maybe???) nor do "your" cabin crew or engineers. I'll have to have a chat with them to see if they know who you may be as they frequent this board often.

[Taffair]

I can assure you that I am a 6G skipper, whether you accept that is entirely a matter for you.

As regards your other comments....we don't have second officers, but one of the first officers certainly thinks he's the boss.

Wonder if we're thinking about the same one!!!! :)



Taffair :}

[speedbird_heavy]

So what do you call pilots with 2 bars???

The person I'm refering to has two bars.

[Taffair]

All our F/O's have 2 bars. Varies from company to company.

Some companies have senior F/O's with 3 bars.

Taffair :ok:

[surely not]

Quote -

I cant see us sending anyone out to an aircraft 30min late. Ok there may be one dispatcher running around between 4 aircraft in the evenings but again that is down to the schedule involving all aircraft arriving and/or departing with in 1 hour.

End of Quote

I cannot believe that you think this attitude is acceptable in any way shape or form Speedbird Heavy. I am truly amazed at the logic displayed!!!!!!!

Strangely the schedules are advised to the Handling company and they are expected to man up in order to cover the operation. 1 person to cope with 4 flights is unacceptbale. It is not down to the schedules, it is down to the attitude of the Handling Agent management who do not provide sufficient cover!!!

You won't send staff to an a/c 30 mins late onto stand????? 30 mins is stuff all time wise and you as the Hnadler shud be trying to recover time not make the situation worse!!!!

Yep there will be occassions when dure to the a/c being late staffing is short in supply, but a mere 30 mins shudn't affect the operation unduly.

Before you sound off I have experience as a manager on both sides of the fence, Handling and Airline, and you wouldn't have lasted five minutes as one of my employees with that attitude!!

Doesn't Air Wales have Service Level Agreements in place?


edited to add


I am amazed also that you do not know the rank marking system for Flt Deck. Are you sure you work in aviation?

[flower]

Speed bird Heavy,
I can assure you that Taffair is a Captain with Air Wales and an extremely competent one at that.
I do not like to get into slanging matches but the comments directed towards Air Wales by some of the handling agents tonight beggar belief.
Everyday we handle RT calls having to sort out slots for these guys because passengers have not been bussed to them etc, extending slots is not an easy task and the lack of passengers at the aircraft even though they have been requested some time before has been all to regular an occurrence these last few weeks.

The comment regarding ATC informing you of an aircraft on approach, we never ring any handling agents regarding Expected arrival times, putting an aircraft on approach on the FIDS is usually done between 10-20 miles from touchdown but it is a task which is very low on our list of priorities. The expected arrival time already on the FIDS is extremely accurate why do you not take the estimate from that?

[speedbird_heavy]

Surly not>>>

Taffair corrected me on that one. As he said some airlines operate different ranking systems.

>>>flower

When you say slots, what do you mean by that. Over the past few weeks all the 6G aircraft I have delt with have not had slots. They have all been unrestricted.

With regards to ATC informing us when they are on approach, I never said they should telephone/telegramme us or what ever. What they do is just what you said. They enter it into the FIDS system.

Who do you think enters the ETA into FIDS???

Thats right we do. This time comes in the form of a movement message from the departure airport. Also this time can be out by 10-20mins which is were the flight deck can call us on frequency (which they should know) and provide us with a revised ETA. All other airlines do it, but for some reason only a few air wales flight deck call us. We also have other jobs to be doing and waiting around for 10-20 mins wont get them done. So we rely on information from the captain and tower. Communication is key.

As for meeting and boarding flights, Air Wales only pay for one check-in agent to sit behind the desk. This person boards aswell as meets the flights. Now if all the aircraft arrived to thier published times then it would cause no problems., but as we know in the real world that never happens. When they do arrive its a first come first served policy with meeting the flights. Boarding however depends on which aircraft departs first (assuming that the aircraft is on the floor). If we done it any other way then there would be delays all round. The other limitation to meeting and boarding flights is the amount of buses availible. As you all know TBI own 3 buses. However not all these buses can be used at the same time. Thats assuming that you want your aircraft loaded/offloaded or marshalled on to stand as well.

Anyhow, I've had enough of this thread now. As I said servisair were in a win win postion with regards to the original subject of this topic. Remeber Servisair have the monopoly for loading/offloading baggage/cargo, providing bus drivers and marshallers. So at the ned of the day we still make money out of you. Good day;)

[flower]

Actually Air Wales have been slotted like many other of the airlines handled by both agents and no one seems to let the crews know.
Comes as quite a surprise to the flight Crews.

Lets talk last Friday morning, the Newcastle fight had a slot of 0635, then it became unrestricted but no one told the crew, he called up as he was in no way ready for the flight , because of missing pax ,catering etc, when I advised him no delay although relieved he then became concerned and said so on the RT that it would mean Servisair would further delay him, although the flight was in in plenty of time to depart to Newcastle as were the crew ,because of ground delays he departed 30 minutes late.
The Cork flight had no passengers boarded although requested some time earlier and we had to talk to Brussels to get him an extension on the slot.
The previous Tuesday I had to jump through hoops of Fire to get away either the Newcastle or Prestwick flight because of the slot which the pilot was unaware of ,speaking to the radar controllers asking to get the aircraft away

That is a problem for both handling agents ,the slots have been there for a few hours so how do they get missed?

We are looking at new ways to pass this information to crews ourselves because the number of times slots are not passed on to crews has got to quite ridiculous levels and our Support staff have too much to do without trying to sort out new slots for the Flights.

I am not going to get into arguments over who is better at handling I only see it from one view point, always seems to me that there are simply not enough staff for either agent to deal with the flights.

[speedbird_heavy]

In that case flower, its down to the airline NOT passing the slot info accross to the handling agent. If we are not informed of a slot time by an airlines ops department then how can we pass that on to the flight deck???

Can you see where I am coming from???

We are getting blamed for other peoples mistakes and this is fueling an argument.

[flower]

Interesting point Speedbird Heavy,

I think there are quite frankly to many points at which all these factors break down, there has been a bit too much tit for tat on this thread . As I said I'm not prepared to say one agent is better because in my experience that isn't the case and i deal with it from only one angle.

Maybe some positive factors may come out of this, if Air Wales or any other airline are remiss in passing ETAs then that should be addressed, if airlines operations departments are failing to pass on slots then that again must be addressed urgently.
However the handlers do have their share of responsibility in these factors as well as the airlines Operations departments.
Sounds to me as if everyone needs to sit down lay their cards on the table and try to put things right.

We constantly review all procedures in ATC, it is a very fluid environment. Servisair have lost this contract but contracts are won and lost constantly as has already been stated further back in the thread, perhaps more needs to be done at reviewing and addressing problems by the agents before even more contracts are lost.

[skyrabbit]

It would be quite a novelty if servisair ever replied when we call up to give an ETA.

They are usually too busy watching TV, reading the paper, drinking tea etc.

rabbit :hmm:

[surely not]

Speedbird Heavy please have a word with your ops staff at LGW. They have themselves included on the Slot Messages from BRU and have no difficulty passing them on the crew and despatchers.

Perhaps you would benefit from visiting LGW to see how the job should be done.

[LandingFee]

Just on the topic of passing slots:

All other airlines that Servisair handle at CWL pass on our SITA address to brussels for CTOT feedback or they will send us the info themselves after they are informed. It is airlines responability to copy CTOT info to us, We don't have to chase the info.


There was one occasion in CWL with AWW that the NCL had a slot, I phoned SWS OPS and this is what I got:

ME: Hello S'air CWL, We have picked up a 0645 slot on the NCL, we have missed that now as we were unware of the slot.
OPS: It shouldn't get a slot, i flight planned it:
ME: Well thats why it has a slot, All planned flights can get slots for various reasons
OPS: Thats ridiculous, Ill Phone CWL TWR.

10 mins later i get a call from CWL TWR asking who from AWW OPS had just phoned them because they didn't have a clue about slots and was shouting the odds at TWR. ATC CWL kindly asked me to speak to SWS OPS to try and explain what exactly a slot was to the OPS Controller.

Anyway slot was canx and all was well ATD: 0700 10 mins late due slot but managable.

***How glad am i that this has all got a bit friendlier***

LF

[witchdoctor]

Is this a Welsh thing?

All the chaps I've met so far up at NCL working for Servisair seem to be a pretty decent bunch, and despite being aware of their 'Circusair' reputation from a friend at LTN, I have been pleasantly surprised at the thoroughness of the training and find it compares well to training programmes at far more illustrious former employers. Perhaps we are simply spoiled at this station.

As for Taffair's tongue-in-cheek assertion that we are a step below Chimapnzees (yes, I noted the winking smiley and no offence is taken), would the fact that the 3 CPL holders at NCL want to work for his airline make his employer a monkey magnet?:p

Tally Ho chaps and see you all next week for tea and medals.;)

[skyrabbit]

Hmmmm.....good point witchdoctor......I usta work for a handler and am now a skipper with AWW.


Now.......where did I leave those bananas? ;)


rabbit :ok:

[speedbird_heavy]

Anyone else want to claim to have come from a handling agent, spent £40,000+ to get their ATPL and then joined air wales............as a captain??? How do you afford it on a handling agents wage???

[surely not]

Speedbird I know of at least 3 ex Handling Agent/Airline Ground staff who have made it through to a flying career.

they never had flash cars, didn't go on the lash very often, didn't wear designer clothes, and spent every penny they could on flying. I think all of them became part time flying instructors to bridge the gap from PPL to CPL.

If you want it enough you will make the sacrifice and get there.

[nosewheelfirst]

I'm a bit concerned and angry with the comments that have been been put forward in this thread, i guess according to some i'm a mindless chimpanzee, enjoy being disrespectful to captains and worksat a very average station.
I know it may have been tongue-in-cheek but its a bit out of place don't you think.
Some of the comments about the airlines have been below the belt and on the whole show immaturity on both sides. I have come through the new Servisair training program which is very good and is a vast improvement on the old system. It now takes 3 1/2 weeks instead of 1.
I also juggle my job with being a full time student and scraping enough money together every so often to go flying, yip I can put on 4 gold bars if I want and pretend to be a captain. I guess we all have the same number of braincells then.
Hope I dont get posted to Cardiff to help out I always thought the Welsh were friendly people. :ok:

[CWLSWS]

Well all I can add is that I used to work for Servisair at CWL and was glad to leave!! People were great but the rest wasnt!!:*

[No_Speed_Restriction]

P.S. Mr. Skyrabbit

Changing the subject;),

Hows my quest for yellow rosters with white stickers coming along. think about it, we can make millions!!!:ok:

[Awyrennwr]

Taffair - Obviously man with absaloutly no knowledge of ground handling what so ever. Don't flatter yourself there are alot of pilots with 4 bars at CWL, most with only 3 bars have bigger pay checks. Yes we do call you sir, as you should also addess your dispatcher sir, it's called manners, something you apparently lack.
I can also assure you that there are servisair staff better educated than you who will go onto much better things than flying for a Airwales.

I appologise if by saying this I offend any other Airwales staff who on the whole are proffesional, friendly and a pleasure to work with - these are the staff who get the most from there handling agents. I know Taffair doesn't speak for the staff I have talked with.

As for Servisair CWL - they may not me the best however, they are one of the best MYT and BY stations in the country - FACT.
Airwales however are difficult to handle, with limited budget and rescources.

Just to put the contract into perspective, during the summer season Britannia alone carry more passengers in a day than Airwales do in a week.

The contract was won fair and square by Aviance, the final bids where identical, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Best of luck to Aviance with their new contract, they can look forward to being treated like scum from arrogant idiots like Taffair. If they can handle AWW better then hats of to them, lets wait and give them a chance.

The loss probably will affect Servisair this winter, but for now will free them up to deal with their trusted and more profitable customers for the summer.

Airway handling (part of servisair) will still handle the baggage and airport busses and ICS (part of the same group will still do the cleaning) so don't expect any improvment on those fronts.

Sevisair staff - chins up, swallow your pride and let this one go gracefully. Airwales managment were satisfied with the service right to the end. Lets now concentrate on the bigger fish.

[SWS_airwales]

Awyrennwr,

Totally agree with you 100%. This has got well out of control and really needs to be chilled. Everyone is just winding each other up and it is getting well too abusive towards each other, and different companies. Everyone is picking up on each others bad points, and not the good.

Lets just please stop the bitchyness and all get along and only post sensible posts, you never know, we may have to work with each other one day and might be best mates!!!!

Air Wales has come along way in the past year, lets hope it continues :) :ok:

[LandingFee]

Good Shout, Lets all get along

[ROLLERSKATE]

Its irrelevant if you work for Servisair, Aviance, Groundstar etc.
All these companies all try to do everything on the cheap, because of this the customer airlines get a poor service and the staff are treated like dirt for little or no thanks and poor wages.
The only way airlines will get a quality service is for them pay a reasonable amount for handling ensuring the handling agent has
modern reliable equipment and more motivated, well trained, reasonably paid staff who will want to give a good service.
The advantages are that the staff retention problem will become a thing of the past thus eventually saving the handling agent money, there will be less sickness again saving them money and the airlines will benefit by having fewer delays, fewer accidents, all of which will save them money!
The only way this will ever happen is by getting rid of the dinosaurs who presently manage these handling companies and employ managers who can see the overall picture and can motivate staff rather than spending their days looking for ways to undermine staff at every opportunity.

[witchdoctor]

Rollerskate,

If it were that easy then why do the flightcrew moan so much about the terrible poverty they are kept in, when even the worst paid amongst them gets double your average dispatcher's pay?;)

Looking forward to the day I can experience the hardship too.:D

[nibor]

I believe that airlines are as much to blame for the general quality of service that they receive as the handling agent is.
When the main criteria for awarding contracts is the cheapest quote then what else can you expect. For a handling agent to reduce their charges they have to cut back somewhere, less equipment, older vehicles, less staff and lower paid staff.

Handling agents were foolish to cut their margins to the bone to win contracts when the airlines could afford to pay higher fees, now airlines are tightening the old belts a bit and the handling agents are being squeezed to breaking point.

On a different note ( i know it's a little off track)

Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be a 'little aircraft syndrome' amongst some pilots. By this i mean that on the whole the smaller the aircraft is the more highly strung the captain is.

I know plently of pilots who prove this wrong on an individual basis, but i am sure that most dispatchers will know what i mean.

[Who'stheDaddy]

Thease threads about airline contracts changing companies always seem to get a bit samey and always end up in a slanging match either between misplaced loyaties between H/A staff or airlines and the agents, Time to stop it!!

As people pointed out earlier its not about service its about ££££ and one companies ability to under cut another, if its not that its about who plays golf with who, who's got the masons handshake who whos got the national tie up deal. for example some one mentioned Aviance getting Bmi baby. Aviance will get any Bmi contract un contested until 2004 as it was part of the the agreement with the BMHS sell off. - then no doubt someone will under cut them, how does that company pay for that drop in price - staff, training, equipment etc.....

All the H/A's are in each others pocket, be it sevisair who are part of airfrance, who own a chunk of menzies and therefore globeground. Swissport who have just bought Groundstar and Aviance who have plane handling, BMHS, reed, MAS etc....

No doubt the debate will go on.

All you people who care at ground level dont give up!

But as Nibor said earlier the savings which are being passed on to handling agents are being forced upon the handling agents by the AIRLINES.... Its a horrible viscious circle!!!

WTD

[surely not]

When I started off in aviation I worked on c-in and then Ops for a large airline that looked after itself (not BA). All the staff identified with the product, and more importantly if there were complaints sent to the airline it had to accept responsibility in its reply. Then money was made avavilable to cure the problem.

Since working for, and dealing with, Handling Agents it is clear that if a passenger complains the airline simply agrees with the passenger and brushes the blame down to the Handling Agent. If the Handling Agent tries to request more money to fix the problem they are told 'you quoted at X price to provide the service, so no more money available'.

An airline that uses a Handling Agent doesn't have the same ownership of the handling costs that an airline providing its own handling does.

[Dragon Leader]

I have enjoyed PPRuNe for many years, but have not felt it necessary to register and comment upon a thread until reading this one.

The decision to change from Servisair to Aviance was made on purely commercial grounds (we do after all live in a commercial world and the industry is a very competitive one).

Some of the comments that have been made are a little personal to say the least and some of those from (what appear to be) Servisair staff are not what I would like to see as a major customer. We do after all operate more flights than anyone else from CWL.

I therefore ask that AWW staff refrain from further comments and I'm sure that Servisair management would ask the same of their people.

To Servisair, thank you for your efforts. To Aviance, I'm sure we can look forward to a mutually succesful summer.

Now.......someone mentioned the pub, what a splendid idea!!!! :ok:

[gobfa]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the H/A's are in each others pocket, be it sevisair who are part of airfrance, who own a chunk of menzies and therefore globeground. Swissport who have just bought Groundstar and Aviance who have plane handling, BMHS, reed, MAS etc....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Servisair / Globeground now operate as a single company owned by Penauille Poly Services, which has never been part of Air France Groupe. Servisair have always rightly claimed they are Independent, i.e. not owned by an airline, airport or indeed have themselves ownership full or part in any airline or airport.

[Who'stheDaddy]

Gobfa.

I try to make my posts as clear as possible without going into too much detail. I could be wrong yes I acknowledge that PPS own Servisair but AF (which incidentally i never said owned servisair)do have an interest in the handling agent it comes under the guise of AFSL.

I'm sure these agents like to sell themselves as working "independently" from each other but I assure that in airports where for example globe and servisair exist they would be working to the same agenda, not to undercut each other but to jointly win business from other airlines/handling agents.

Another point is that if you look on their respective websites it shows they have a larger global network ie that in airports where servisair did not operate but globe do it all falls under one umbrella.

Same with Aviance and planehandling and soon swissport and groundstar!

WTD:ok:

[capt.sparrow]

The only scenario when handling agents bid for airline handling agents is who can give a c**p service at the lowest price.
Airlines get exactly what they pay for, unmotivated staff on close to the minimum wage who operate old unreliable equipment - and they wonder why their flights are delayed?
Only when the accountants of the the airlines and handling agents learn that investing in the infastructure and staff they may actually save money.
The saying "pay peanuts and get monkeys" is spot on.
When I worked for a handling agent many years ago it was always the few dedicated staff who carried the monkeys and I believe it's still the case today.
When bidding for a contract use the quality of service and how
money will eventually be saved in the negotiations,pay the staff a decent wage enabling handling agents to attract the right calibre of staff and get rid of the monkeys.
Obviously this will never happen,the handling agents will continue to be managed by d**kheads, airlines will get a bad service,staff will get more fed up and leave in droves.

[Tranceaddict]

Whosthedaddy said

"I try to make my posts as clear as possible without going into too much detail. I could be wrong yes I acknowledge that PPS own Servisair but AF (which incidentally i never said owned servisair)do have an interest in the handling agent it comes under the guise of AFSL."

AFSL (Air france Servisair Limited) was split last year and the name changed, Servisair/GlobeGround (as it is now known) have no connection with it anymore.

"Another point is that if you look on their respective websites it shows they have a larger global network ie that in airports where servisair did not operate but globe do it all falls under one umbrella."

Servisar is owned by Penauille Services who purchased GlobeGround in 2001, creating Servisair/GlobeGround

[Who'stheDaddy]

Oh god here we go, i'll have to spell it out...

as i said earlier.....
quote
I could be wrong yes I acknowledge that PPS own Servisair but AF (which incidentally i never said owned servisair)do have an interest in the handling agent it comes under the guise of AFSL.

1-PPS - Standing for: Penauille poly Services
2-AF not owning Servisair
3-Servisair DID have an interest in AFSL - at the beginning of my quote i did say "i may be wrong"

So as i stated i know that PPS bought a 51% stake in GG - GLOBEGROUND to create servisair / globeground.

*The point that I was trying to make*
There is alot of politics in that area of the industry, its not about service its about £££££/tie ins - Whether its AirWales or a larger carrier - examples of such politics are abundant especially in airports withtwo or more agents. There is no point at people sniping at each other and which company is better, you never know you may end up working for the competition one day - I bet the people at Groundstar didnt expect to be bought by Swissport.
Airlines enforce savings upon handling agents these savings are at the cost of service. How many false promises are there on the SLA's (sorry- Service level agreements) when the agents themselves are completely under-equipped for it
*Well at least some people got it!*

So after seriously straying from the Air Wales topic I'm now staying out of this one!

Thanks

WTD:zzz:

[tallseabird]

Regarding the Aviance - BMIBaby arrangement, is this not a restrictive practice, should it not be subject to EU rules and awarded in a free market?

[redfield]

Capt.Sparrow: quote "the handling agents will continue to be managed by (rude words)." I don't think you should tarnish every manager with the same brush. I'm not commenting on senior or regional managers or the boffins who make decisions on what prices to quote for handling contracts, because in my opinion they're not all shining examples of how to manage, but some station managers aren't all that bad and do try to do their best while working within restrictions that, to a certain extent, they can't control. Not ALL managers are (rude words).

Also, a more accurate phrase would probably be "who can give the best service for the lowest price" not "who can give a c**p service.":ok:

[opsmaster]

Hi guys at CWL,

If not loosing a major contract is bad enough, You are about to loose your load control as well.

Ask your station Manager for more details or see the relevent thread!

sorry to be the barer of bad news.............:yuk: