Australia: Training, Licence Conversion, Job Prospects

[Tambaran]

Currently considering Chopperline in Caloundra or PHS in Coolangatta.
Anyone have experience with these people or have other suggestions.

Many thanks.

[fatter bloke]

All the schools you mentioned are good. I trained at Chopperline and i think the training was excellent. Very experienced instructors, however, they are just a training organisation and do not hire low time pilots, for this reason i would choose a company who have jobs up for grabs once you finish your training (Unless you have a job to go to)....The helicopter group in MEL. do have joy fights in alice spring that you might get a start at. so do PHS. others i do not know if you want to muster go to a company thats up in the mustering areas. Hope this helps a bit. good luck. sorry i forgot AIRWORKS helicopters in caboolture..bell 47 and good rates also blue tounge in maroochydore

[This message has been edited by fatter bloke (edited 11 April 2000).]

[Tambaran]

Thanks Guys,
I'm going to give PHS a shot, mainly because of the chances of getting that all important first job with them. I do remain quite impressed with the other two however.

[camelot jj]

Hi Tambaran,
I,ve just read your posting. I am a Brit,learnt to fly in Sydney. I,ve been in the Australian industry for roughly eight years. Ended up working for two flying schools there Bankstown Helicopters and Helimuster.
I ended up finishing my instructoer days with Chopperline in Caloundra. Chopperline were with out a doubt the more professional and dedicated to thier students, and cheapest. A delightful chap called Tub Mathersom ran the school. (ex lt col, Oz army to which he also ran the army training school before he finished with them)
In retrospect, I would have done all my training with them. I,m now flying Offshore with many of his ex army pals,whom all have lots of respect for him and his school.
Becker was a new guy on the block just starting out, as i was leaving.
hope this helps. There is far more prospects in Canada!!

[Helihopeful]

I recently completed my CPLh and am now looking for a job. I am from a cattle background and ride, fence, motorbike, muster etc,,,etc. I thought this would help my ambition to be a chopper pilot but alas no! Can any of you employed pilots tell me just what the employers are looking for. Thanks in advance.
if you dont want to post it here please send it to my e-mail whick is in my profile, again thanks guys and girls

[Out of Balance]

Your background is certainly an advantage if you are looking for a mustering job, which is a good way to gain hours and flying skills. If you are looking for any other type of helicopter flying then you will encounter the familiar 'Catch-22' situation. You need hours (experience) to become employable and the better quality of those hours (PIC, night, CTZ ops etc), the more employable you become. Other ways you can build hours are to become an instructor, or if you are able, join the military. Some of the larger companies employ co-pilots so sit for your IREX exam and get yourself as well qualfied as you can. Don't give up as I believe that you are in a good position. There are lots of us old buggers that are coming up to retirement age and it's enthusiastic people like yourself who will be filling the vacancies in the next few years. Good luck.

[arm the floats]

Another option would be to go to the US.Enroll in a flight school that issues J1 visas.Do the US CPL and CFI (flight instuctors course).The FAA and the school will want you to do at least 15 hours Dual,you'll have to suffer leaving Oz and putting up with the Yanks but you'll get a 2 year visa out of it ,they're crying out for pilots (especially CFI's).Build as many hours as you can,and on returning to OZ,CASA will recognise the CFI rating (thats what they told me a couple of years ago).If your not interested in instructing there are other jobs to be found (photography,geo surveys etc)but they're not so easy to find.
There's approx 30000 civil helos in the world and 20000 are in the US,with around 8000 in Canada.If you want to kickstart your career its the way to go!

[arm the floats]

I've nothing against the Yanks!

[George Semel]

That nice, I got nothing against you guys in Oz either. There is a bit of a demand for flight instructors right now. Most of it is fixed wing but a lot of helicopter schools are looking too, if you are R-22. I if not then the pickings can be a bit slim. Nice to know that the United States is good for something.

[Scattercat]

Be carefull about taking on a co-pilot position too early in your career, as without at least 1000hrs PIC, you may never get a command position on many contracts. It can be a way to get started but lots of guys have been stuck as co-pilots for lots of years?

------------------

[Stunty]

Hey - I currently work in Aus as an ATC an would like to jump ship to the pilot world. Im not keen to fly trash in some fixed wing for years on end to make the regionals then if im lucky make airlines when im 102 years old.

Anybody know of any good helo schools in Australia (websites/email addresses helpfull) or any experienced pilots/operators who can handle some industry questions before I dive in the deep end.

Any help appreciated.

[fatter bloke]

Hi, Some of the schools that i know are good are Chopperline, Blue Tongue and Helicopter group in Melbourne. The first three are on the sunshine coast. Chopperline have very experienced instructors who are also authorised testing officers. Blue Tongue is a good school. i couldnt choose betwen them when i was looking around, but i went with Chopperline cos it had the theory in house and it was the cheapest too. Mate if you have a job to go too i would say quit your job now and go do it, cos its great. However if you dont have a flying job lined up think long and hard about taking unpaid leave from the job you are in get your heli rating and look for work. You will find getting a job very difficult unless you know the righe people or are prepared to wait it out in the territory for around one year doing mostly unpaid work in the hanger or selling tickets for scenics and then you might get to do the flying side of things. Please let us know how you go on this forum as i have not found many Australian pilots use this forum. I wish we did . anyhow good luck and enjoy the flight training

[Tambaran]

I fly a 767 & dislike it. Always wanted to learn to fly choppers so I started some training. I looked at Mike Becker, Bluetounge & Chopperline in Caloundra. They were all good outfits but I ended up choosing Chopperline & they are great. Very professional but still relaxed. Go for it.

[Scattercat]

Austcopters at Archerfield run a tight ship & you'll get more than a "tick in the box" licence. ie: If you don't or won't make the grade you'll be told.

[buju]

The best most experienced instuctor pilot in Australia by far?

Mike Becker "Becker Helicopters" Just ask him

Take all his heroics and capabilities with a grain of salt

You are better off with Chopper Line

[Stunty]

Harsh considering my exploits so far.

I find it interesting in these competitive times about how companies will respond to enquiries. I have emailed 6-9 helo schools in Australia with a page long email stating my exact position (experience and financial)and asking for advice. I got one very very thourough responce (just happened to be from Mike Becker) and one weak (but beter than none) responce from a company in Perth. From the other emails I have recieved nothing.

Fair enough they probably get sick of enquiries all the time. What they don't realise is that I am in a lucky situation at the moment where I am earning lots and lots and lots of money and I plan on spending a very large quantity on helo training at the end of the year. So far Becker is winning hands down (obviously I wont base my decision on emails alone - but initial impressions count for a lot). Do they want my $40,000 grand or not - if they don't even have the time to send me an email I guess not!!!.

Stunty.......turns and walks away disapointed.

[NRDK]

Stunty

Best you stick to ATC with your wad of money otherwise you will not be able to afford the beer hobby due to a lack of 'vouchers' once you become a 'Wobble Head'. On a more serious note; Good luck, your situation of poor return correspondence from flying schools and in the future, prospective employers will not improve wherever you go in the World. But perseverance will pay off.

------------------

Flown Navy
Dug Army
Eaten Crabette

[Stunty]

I'd like to stick to ATC only its bloody boring (already after only two years - and working @ an international airport!!) I want a new job and if takes a hard slog to get there then so be it - Ive got plenty of years left in me.

[arm the floats]

I'm a UK pilot who trained in the US in 95.I enquired to many schools worldwide and got a 100% response from the american schools.The US is booming in rotary aviation at the moment and if you can get a J1 Visa its the place to go.UK schools did not seem to be interested in my money NZ gave me a reasonable response and Blue Tongue also gave me some info.My own opinion is that you are in the position of power at the moment choose your school very wisely and give yourself the best opportunity to build hours after you get your licence.

[alltorque]

I have been researching the Aus training situ but I am not in a position to travel very far since I need to hold my current job to finance the bottomless pit!

I got a very good reference for Bankstown Helos from the Insurance Pool & pilots/associates I spoke to. Bill Miller certainly did impress me (equally his IPs who took me over the site) but the problem is really the choice available - I can only afford it if I train in Sydney.

Further discussion on training/making a start in Australia would be appreciated...

Especially this stuff about hanging out *unpaid* in the NT for a year or TWO(!?) before getting even a chance to drive a mustering heli?!!?? I would actually do this no problem if I though it would result in a job that would give 4-500hrs a year till I was able to command better prospects.

Especially in Aus, the bush lifestyle is one of the attractive aspects of the profession and "going bush" for a few years to consolidate experience/hours is really rather appealing to me, since I am well and truly ready to get shut of the big city for a bit.

[WhoNeedsRunways]

alltorque :

I learnt at Bankstown Helicopters. I walked in there on the off chance, looking at prices. I felt so comfortable that I spend AU$12000 there almost at the drop of a hat.

I didn't do groundschool, so can't vouch for that, but the flying side was fine as far as I could tell, except for an almost guaranteed propensity for the flying programme to slip during the day, but then, where does it not ?

[maxm]

I looked at taking the plunge last year and did the rounds of most of the known flying schools. I found talking to the guys at Advanced Flight Theory in QLD to be very helpful. Good general info on what to expect after training etc etc.

Unfortunately I didn't take the plunge but the urge lingers. I'm still in Sydney so Bankstown seem to be the only ones. I'd be interested to know if you (Alltorque) went ahead with them, and if so, how you are finding it?

Cheers

[Randy_g]

I recently did a conversion course up in Brisbane. I have a Cdn license and moved here. I talked to quite a few ex-muster pilots, and they said that the best way to get a job flying a mustering machine, is to work on the ground at a cattle station. At least then you get paid and get to live in the bush. Quite a few of the mustering operators are suspicious about "city folk". I hope this helps you out. There is nothing more fun than flying a helicopter.

See you in the air !!!

[rotorque]

Don't fly for free.

[Arm out the window]

How much is a reasonable rate to shell out per hour for a Jet Ranger / Long Ranger with instructor for endorsement purposes in Australia?
If it makes a difference for insurance purposes, I'm experienced on other turbine helo types but never flown the Bell 206.

Thanks.

[imabell]

bell 206 endorsements are anything from $650 to $850 per hour.
sydney can be cheap, s.e queensland average and further up the coast is usually a bit higher.
all in all not bad prices if you get to do more than a cross country and a couple of circuits.

[Mark Six]

Resettlement training?

[John Eacott]

Reasonable? Current ad hoc charter rates for 206 is $A1100 per hour in Melbourne, and approaching that in Sydney. Too many operators chasing too little work in Sydney, hence the rates vary, but you get what you pay for. Remember, there are only two tried and tested ways to save costs on helicopters...........

[Arm out the window]

Mark Six, yep, that's it! Looking to make myself more employable and get to know a few people in the industry.
Being rotary and fixed wing trained, I'm also trying to get a feel for what may be the better way to jump.

I miss helo flying, but I'm led to believe that it'll be a fairly nomadic existence in the real world, which is something I'm trying to get away from after recent years of long attachments away from the family.

Perhaps instructing will provide some avenues; I enjoy it, but from what I read here and elsewhere, it appears to be viewed as something of a lowly-paid springboard to other jobs, which isn't really what I'm about these days.

Imabell, John Eacott, thanks for your replies.

While I'm on the subject, what about R22 and R44, same idea?

[Aust Pilot]

I am looking to get a Rotary CPL and am hoping to get some recommendations for Melbourne schools and instructors - or any recommendations of who to steer clear of.
I am doing this as a pleasure pursuit only so the ability to get work with the school after training is not important.

Thanks.

[John Eacott]

Same reply that I give anyone who calls my office. Go for a FW licence via a reputable company, eg Pearson Aviation, since it's cheaper, easier, and gives you a basic airmanship without the aggravation of trying to control a helicopter. Then use the hours FW as a credit to your /H licence, and go to Professional Helicopter Services at Moorabbin, 9580 7433 for your helicopter training.

[Out of Balance]

Austpilot - good advice from John Eacott re FW training first and then going to PHS for RW training. I trained with PHS and found the training and personalities as good as their name suggests.

[Dockside]

Professional Helicopter Services at Moorabbin are the guys to go and see as they have a relatively large training fleet of robbies and do give, as the name implies, a Professional service. They also have theory classes running on site which can be started at any time. The instructors have plenty of patience and will explain everything in a common sense fashion.

[Buckjump]

employed 15yrs+ etc. thanks to PHS. :)

[Helibiggles]

Personally I wouldn't go near PHS. Fairly expensive and from the people that I met there..fairly up them selves.
I had a better reception at The Helicopter Group next door. They also have very very experienced senior instructors.
Its funny how first impressions count and PHS to me was completely negative.
John Eacotts advise is very sensible and I also suggest the same.
All the best. :)

[Out of Balance]

Maybe PHS saw your signature.

[Helibiggles]

OOB,
Its just writing on a web page.....designed to evict that kind of response. :cool:
As for PHS.
Nothing personal, as I said; the first impression counts. When your looking to spend big bucks, someone sitting down discussing your situation over a coffee is a whole lot more indicative of what their attention to customer service and care is. Also shows that after your licence they may be interested in you for longer than it takes the ink to dry on your final check.
Aust Pilot asked for others experiences and that is mine...
Don't forget to fly safe now....

[Out of Balance]

Forgot to add a ;) - no offence intended helibiggles!

[Aust Pilot]

Thank you for the advise.

I did fixed wing 10 years ago; CPL and MECIR at Peter Bini's - so aviation is not new; only rotary wing.

PHS seems to attract the most positive comments. Any particular instructors you would recommend?

[telboy]

If Brett's fit enough he's an very good instructor. Sam would be my choice, then Luke.

[Helibiggles]

Good on ya OOB,
None taken and none intended..
:D

[chopper206]

Hmmmm, seems to me like Biggles has a little more against PHS than just first impressions,i have visited PHS for my self and found the guys there fitting the discription as per the name, some people see this as STUCK up, i saw it as professional, every met a really cool!! QC.no?... but hey def. professional !! i could go on but the other replys were all good, Hey Biggle? did you learn that signature from the HELI GROUP?

[Helibiggles]

There is a difference to appearing professional and walking around with your head up your ar$e. Thinking professional. I remember pulling into the carpark next to a wreck of a H300. Hmm! Very professional advert there.
Good on ya for sticking up for your training organisation thou. Just remember this moment when you're living in the back of your car in the NT, because the Ayres Rock job carrot was given to someone else...
Keep smiling and enjoy your training. :)
Oh! and thinking of the Heli. Group you would be hard pressed to go past Mike Meehan for your training. Very experienced bloke.
PS - I didn't get the QC part...can you be a little more specific for an old man. :D

[Geoff Williams]

Aust Pilot.
I have been following the replies with interest and have some pearls for your consideration.

John's comment and others on fixed wing first has some benefit financially and as you already have a FW then you will get credits for for CPL H. However for someone who is starting out, total helicopter time is what gets the job flying a helicopter and not so much your fixed wing time. Two candidates that present for the same job both with brand new CPL H, the one that has 105 hours as against the the dual rated one with 70 hours H will stand the better chance.

The selection of a flying school is important. Although I believe not primarily for the reputation or percieved quality of training of one school above another. As a new CPL H your first challenge is to find a job. Your best chance is with an organisation that already knows you, your abilities and character. That is the school that you have been flying with to gain your licence.

So it goes logically that your choice of school should be one that offers you the best chance of progression once you have completed your training. Most people can be taught to fly. The makeup of the individual determines if they will turn out to be a pilot that displays good airmanship and common sense. If you display these attributes throughout your training, you will more than likely be on the list for a slot with that training organisations other activities when you obtain your licence.

After all it is more unlikely that you will get your first job with a CHC. Bristow, Esso or EMS type of operator, so be prepared to negoitate the stepping stones on the way. As time goes by the company that did your initial training has less influence on the sucess or otherwise of your job applications. You have the biggest influence on that.

Good luck, its not easy getting a start, but those with the will, will. :)

[chopper206]

AHHAA...seemed to hit a soft spot there Biggles...those who get jobs and those who dont.. sorry for my bad spelling in my last reply.. supposed to read." ever met a QC?" you know one of those High up Lawyer dudes...they walk around with their heads up their back sides but they sure know their job and are professional....get my meaning now... ;) anyhow didnt mean to use the original posting to end up here but i knew there was more to your reply than just "first impressions"...and couldnt resist.

[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: those who wish. ]

[Helibiggles]

Dear 'Those who wish'
Improper to assume I have actually trained at either of those places or that I ever wanted a job flying 200hrs a year in AR. I visited the PRO's to price a 500 rating for the boats (something they found difficult to do)
As it happened I didn't need it so returned to the NT. VERY much involved in flying and NOT training. Enjoy your ground briefs :D
Having read back it seems that 'CB' also has been given the same impression that I have. Just remember it was only an opinion offered to someone who was after one. :cool:
nuff said.

[chittyhawk]

I am a pom with an FAA commercial and CFI, 340 hours, 50% R22 and 50% 300 CB and C, about 170 instruction given. Family commitments mean that I have just arrived in Melbourne Australia with a 4 year work visa and I’m looking to continue my flying career down here. I’m aware of the requirements to convert to an Oz license but am more concerned about the job prospects for a low time pilot in this country. From what I have been able to discover so far, companies which train pilots here like to hire their graduates in tourist work etc. However, it would seem that not every graduate can get hired, so what happens to newly qualified low time pilots in Oz?-where/how do they build their hours? I’m quite interested in cattle mustering if viable, or anything that can help me build up those elusive hours.
Any advice/contacts/suggestions/job offers! gratefully received!
Many thanks for your time guys (and girls!)
ps-this is my first post, so bear with me if I did something wrong!

[Droopstop 21]

Chittyhawk,
Just go down to Morabbin Airport and talk to the rotary guys down there. There are several schools, and they should be able to fill you in.

Best of British luck.

:cool: Ahhh, another day in paradise!

[Autorotate]

You could check with the following schools as they run pretty good operations and I think all have websites:

Blue Tounge Helicopters
Tel: +61 7 5448 8166

Professional Helicopters (As mentioned)

Chopperline
Email: [email protected]

Kestrel Aviation College
[email protected]
(They also operate helos including a BK-117)


Bankstown Helicopters
Tel: 02 9791 0500

One guy that could give you a full rundown and steer you in the right direction is Ian Paull who is an aviation consultant, partner in a training company and a great guy to boot. His number is: +61 418 790026. They also run Bell 47s on ag work.

Hope this helps.

Autorotate

[chittyhawk]

Ta for the info, will check it all out!

Chittyhawk

[nava1]

Is there any truth to the rumour that negotiations are taking place regarding payrises for CHC?

[OWAP]

Can't speak for the pilots but the observers have recieved a recent pay rise agreement through their enterprise bargining.

[HelosRfun]

I've got some questions of any Aussie pilots viewing this board. I've got a tentative job offer near Brisbane flying mediums (205's). Rather easy schedule about 250-350 hours per year. What I would like to know is .... What is an average salary for a medium driver in this neck of the woods? What would be considered low-end up throught to high-end range? Considering your $ is worth about .50 cents U.S. $, how is the cost of living in this area? What are your thoughts on the Queensland area? Would you prefer to work in Australia or overseas, if given the choice? What are any other pro's and con's of working in Australia? Taxes? etc... . .I'd sure appreciate some info from any of you guys/gals who work/have worked there and can give me a "heads up" as to what to expect.. .Oh, one last thing. If any of you has both the CASA Commercial/instrument or ATP(H) and say a FAA or Canadian Commercial/Instrument or ATP(H), could you give me an idea of how similar/disimilar the process is? Which is harder to obtain, etc... . .THANKS MUCH. .Helos

[Gibbo]

See post on Dunnunda & Godzone

[John Eacott]

Rather than 205's, the mediums in the Brissie area would probably be ex mil UH-1's. The only civvie 205 in Oz is Helicorp's 205-A1, on fire contract in Melbourne. Most 204/205's are worked very hard, fires, mossie spraying, lifting, etc. Are you talking about John McD's aircraft, or Tim Turner? Tim has a 205 equivalent, John's are mostly 204 types. Being 'Restricted' category, they aren't allowed to carry passengers.

Pay: no idea of what is paid in Qld, but expect $A50-65k, is my guess. Cost of living is very cheap cf. what you'll be used to, so the $A goes quite a long way. Cars and some consumer goods are disgustingly expensive, and choice is significantly less (smaller market, less incentive for manufacturers to import and comply with Australian Design Rules), but Quality of life....there's the big attraction. Wild horses wouldn't drag me back to UK, you have to be here to understand :) :)

Tax is swingeing, mainly because threshold levels are relatively low for income tax. IIRC, threshold for the highest income tax is $A60k which means that above that you are paying 47% tax. GST (goods and services tax) is a federal tax, 10%, and there is no direct state tax, although lots of little ones, such as state debit tax (on every bank debit transaction), tax on house sales (% of sale price), vehicle registration, petrol, etc etc. Queensland is a relatively low tax state tax regime, due to good financial management and low debt of previous state governments. Weather is warm/hot, often humid, semi tropical.

If you have a genuine offer, take it. Don't wait, it may be gone next week!!

ps Gibbo, what do you mean you have worked in Australia. That's drawing a fine line, isn't it <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[syd_rapac]

John,

Maintenance test pilot at Oakey maybe???????

. .Syd

[John Eacott]

Syd,

I rest my case.

Paid, maybe.......never mind, Gibbo knows where I'm coming from <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Gibbo]

Right you are John, caught out again! I was using the common "taking the pay = working, tax office definition.

The floating around at 1500 AGL, RFS traffic cop ruling is a lot more stringent. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

Was syd_rapac referring to a possible Helitech (or who ever now contracts AAAvn) MTP slot at OK? If so it is UH-1H again.

Gibbo

[John Eacott]

Gibbo,

Seen the latest Pac Rotors? Good photos, lots of shots of FB46 sitting around fire scenes.

[Gibbo]

No John, but I will chase it down, thanks!

Gibbo

[syd_rapac]

John,

Meant to ask, how big a bucket can you put on the Wessex?

Syd

[chittyhawk]

HelosRfun,

I'm in the middle of converting my FAA commercial to Aussie commerical. I've done the written test on air law which is open book. It's a little more difficult than FAA written as you have to find all the relevant info in 4 or 5 publications as opposed to being well up on your FAR/AIM. Shouldn't be a real problem though as I managed to pass!

As for the flying part, I haven't done it yet but understand that it is similar to an FAA commercial checkride, so also not too bad. The medical is a little more stringent than US class 2, ecg, blood test (for cholesterol) etc. is required, but I passed that too.

Good luck, and yes, Aus is a good place to live <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[HelosRfun]

THANKS ALL!

Sounds like a nice enough place. Although, at 47% tax rate + the add ons, I don't know if I can AFFORD to work there, especially considering the Aussie $$$ is now at .50 cents U.S.????Hmmmm.... .Syd_Rapac, you are close! It is a military contract position.

[w_ocker]

Helos,

I'm at the establishment that I think you are refering to. Drop me an email and I'll reply with whatever I can help you with.

[email protected]

[HelosRfun]

W_ocker,

Check your e-mail, "mate", eh, y'all!

[silicone]

Does anyone know how often Bristow and CHC run recruiting drives in Australia?
Any tips for getting noticed?
Cheers,
Silicone.

[Buitenzorg]

Check the weekly Jobs Update page of the Australian Federation of Air Pilots website www.afap.org.au (http://www.afap.org.au)

In the last six months Bristows have advertised for co-pilots at least twice.

As for getting noticed, I know absolutely nothing about the company culture or personalities, so this is general advice. Get your resume together (one page, licenses and flight time near the top), then call and ask to speak with the Chief Pilot. Explain that you'll be visiting in the vicinity shortly, interested in working for them in the future, and could you come in for a chat at his convenience? Most CPs will try and give you some time. Then it's up to you to make a good impression. Now at least you'll be a personality to him rather than a sheet of paper.

Of course, having a personal recommendation from a serving pilot will make a huge difference.

Good luck!

[MPT]

G'day Silicone,

Agree with both Buitenzorg and Nigel (on D & G), have applied to both myself to no avail. I have found out a few things myself by talking to guys in both companies.

Bristows have advertised in Friday's "Australian" (you should be able to get a copy in Kununurra on Saturdays) a couple of times this year. Apart from the advertised requirements of ATPL(H) subjects, IREX pass, 500hrs PIC minimum and NVFR, if you are over 30 yrs old or have much over 1000hrs, forget it!! You are not deemed to be cojoe material in their books.

As for CHC Australia, they employed a bunch of cojoes this year also, but did so from within and from their resume file I believe. Their requirements are pretty much the same, but they are not as ageist (?) as Bristows and have the option of putting you into one of their singles (B206B's out at Moomba, B206L's around the traps) for a while to build PIC time to enable you to fulfil client requirements before moving into the command seat of a twin. Bristows cojoes remain cojoes for the duration of their employment! Probably worth getting into CHC's resume file if that's the way you want to go.

Helicopters Australia recently advertised for copilots for their ESSO contract, but I believe they have filled the available positions.

Feel free to drop me an email if you need any more info.

Cheers,

MPT

PS Wouldn't mind a B206 or AS350 job myself (or a B47, or a H300 or a .......)

[MPT]

G'day again Silicone,

Check out today's "Australian", Bristow's looking again. If you can't access the paper, check out Windy's post on D & G for contact details. Good luck.

Cheers,

MPT

[stusssy]

Hi There!!!!!


Does anyone know which contries recognizes Aus CPL H, Im planning to go down under to train, the syllabus they offer matches 100% the one required by JAA, I know there will be some trouble ahead converting it in to a JAA, but how difficult is it.

And where a part from Aus whit my CPL H (Whit JAA Requirements) will they accept it as it is Asia????? NZ?????

Last would it be easier to convert in to FAA compared JAA.

Any answers would be a great help!!!!!


Thanx
;)

[Hone22]

Stussy,

the easiest conversion is to NZ-- produce the relevant documents showing you hold a Aus CPL (H), valid medical and ID, then fill in a form hand over approx $50............done.

Most other conversions FAA, Canadian etc.........will require you complete a number of flight hrs + check ride(coversion test) and at least a law exam.

You're right in that the JAR seems to require the most effort, $ and time. Maybe they don't want foreign pilots flying there????:(


Nah.....couldn't be that

[Rotorbike]

Stussy,

Most Far East and Middle East countries will accept an Australian licence with little more than an Air Law exam. More important than the licence though will be hours, post Commercial licence and how you hope to attain them. The easiest way to find individual conversion requirements would be to contact the local Aviation Authorities in the country you are considering for better information. Run a search and then email for requirements.

All countries that will allow easy conversions from other licences are normally bound by the companies operating there that are looking for experienced people to fill vacanies. So as a result they are looking for people with thousands of hours.

If your intention is to train cheaply and immediately return to the UK for employment then ultimately it will take longer and cost more. As wierd as it sounds, with a bare licence only, a fair amount of extra training will be required to put you into that countries ways. If your intention is to go to a country where you are authorized to work and to gain your first foothold of the industry then collect licences as you travel the world working then this is possible.

Don't go to a country to gain their licence without work authorization then hope to jump into a position in another country as that won't happen and will cost you more in time and money.

If you are fixed in your goal of training abroad, my advice would be to decide which country you would like to train in (Australia, US, Canada or South Africa) gain work authorization and expect to fly there for a minimum of 1000 hours or if possible to ATPL(H) level before you even thought about converting to another licence.

JAA currently doesn't give any dispensation to holders of foreign licences (but this could change) so expect to have to do all JAA exams if your ultimate goal is to return to the UK. If this is the same sylabus as Australia maybe a better solution is to gain the UK helicopter exams (good for three years from completion of last exam) before you head off to Australia leaving only a flight test when you return to the UK with your 1000 hours.

Hopefully that helps.....

PS Don't know if the Aussie market for newly qualified helicopter pilots is particularly strong.... Maybe that is another question you should ask.

[huey]

Hi Stusssy,
You say the Aussie syllabus matches 100% to the JAA one, but the Aussie CPL(H) is only at most, 125hrs and that is without a fixed wing PPL.If you have a PPL it drops to 70hrs.
The JAA requires from memory is 155hrs before you can do the 30hr JAA course which will include Instrument & Night time.Then of course the written subjects and from what I understand they are no mean feat themselves.

In my opinion after coming to Aus myself(5 Years ago) to train I would go for the Jaa option probably via the states.This would give you more chances of working around the world purley on the basis that the JAA licence is probably the most easily converted to other licences.
Good luck with your choices,

Nick

[Aro]

Hi Stusssy,

I'm in the same boat as you, at the mo.

As of yet no one on Australia can offer a JAA CPL(H) course.

All they can do is sell you glorified hour building, by inventing some sort of syllabus around JAR FCL2. (Which is freely available at http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/35/53/355313/355313.pdf)

Any school anywhere can do that.

Your options are...

Do your JAA in Blighty (or other member state) - Total 135 hrs cost about 50kgbp

Do your JAA in USA - Total 135 hrs cost about 30kgbp

Do any other ICAO CPL (or PPL) (i.e CASA) and build it to 155hours
Then do the 35hr modular course in Blighty or USA.
- Total 185 hrs cost about 35kgbp

I've mailed you also with some further detail.

Cheers,

Aro.

[MikeHUK]

Invitation for comments and advice concerning CPL courses in Australia please. Also considering Night and Instrument.

[imabell]

hi mikehuk


airwork helicopters in queensland are a good start. they are internationally accredited for overseas students and know all the ins and outs of the industry.

just add .com.au and contact them. night and instrument are available and you get instructors with a lot of time on both. ian paul is the man to contact.

be careful of the schools who intimate they are jar compliant. they don't exist in australia.

try them.;)

[Aladdinsane]

I know Professional Helicopters of Melbourne have 2 british ex-students flying at their Ayers Rock base. They have a good training reputation.

[pohm1]

Check out the Professional Helicopter Services website at www.phs.com.au , it will give you a pretty good overview of the company, its training and job prospects after completing your Cpl(H). They will advise you on the all important visa requirements and necessary paperwork etc. They have employed 5 students since Dec 01 in their tourist operation in the Northern Territory flying B206, B206L and H500. It is worth checking out which other schools will offer a real job prospect and which will just say that they will help you in the search for work. With nearly 3 dollars to the pound its a great time to do it! :cool:

[Steve76]

Mike,

Another option is NZL.

They have superb training in Mountainous environment and can do all the IFR and NVFR you want.

There are excellent instructors in the north island with more than 10000hrs of bush and longline experience to make you come up to speed fast. In the bottom of the south island there are a couple of great schools teaching guys in all terrain up to and over 10K.

You will also find the conversion further in your favor and get more bang for your buck and some guys will also help with accomodation.

Do a search on the net and if you have any probs mail me and I can find some names for you.

PS: Don't get sucked in by the 'real job prospect' line. Of the oodles of guys that go there, a handful get a shot. You will live at the rock on a pittace of a wage doing 150hrs a year and spending all your cash on accomodation. Surf the net and ask others if you think I am being overly negative. Been there done that.

:cool:

[pohm1]

Mike
The accomodation is supplied free, the wage is more than enough to live on, and we average around 350/400 turbine hours per annum which for your first job doesn't sound too bad does it? Only those who are prepared to work hard will get the chance, which is why there are plenty of people ready to knock it.

[imabell]

hi steve 76,

if i remember rightly you got your first job ***was it in australia as a copilot ***.

australia has done a lot for you, in a previous post you reckoned that working for a mustering company was a dead end, go nowhere job, in fact it is the largest part of the australian helicopter industry ( over one third of the aussie fleet), and has employed more pilots and sent them out into the world, (helicopters and airlines), with massive experience than any other part of it. helimuster has been the best and most generous company for employing new pilots and giving them their start in life than any other. it certainly has done you well even if you were only carrying bums around the gorge, then there is the trans tasman agreement that would have helped you. don't forget your roots boy. those that complain usually had problems getting on with people in remote commnties. too far from mummy.

by the way couldn't you get a job in nz ????;).

and pohm1,

i see that you use "we" a lot so we can assume that you are "in" the company. so you might be able to tell us how many pilots get trained and end up on a 206 at the rock and how many get trained and don't. the ones that you reckon don't work hard that is. i guess that they can't give everyone a job can they. so we can also assume that the phones out there will be answered with a british accent.

i see by the last part of your post that you think that people knock your system why would that be ???

so i guess that means that when they (you) are training a pilot that won't make the grade they tell them to give it away or do they keep training them without telling them they are not pulling their weight and giving them a chance to go to another school, before they spend (and waste) $40,000. on false hope:( :( yea really!!:eek:

flying schools canvassing students with the promise of work has left a lot of unhappy pilots out there.

do your homework mikehuk, i see your in australia you may even be in melbourne, so the conversion rate should not be a problem so ring about. there are schools that will give advice without predjudice, i promise
:rolleyes:

(*** edited by request by PedalStop)

[RoamingCyclic]

Hi Guys,

I am being bombarded with questions from my mates around the globe as to what I think of this new tax law that the ATO has put in place which affects Aussie Pilots and Engineers working abroad.

Can someone enlighten me as to what this change is all about?

Thanks...

[Red Wine]

One viewpoint amongst the Tax Agents [Leaked from the ATO] is that following the demise of Ansett.....a stack of guys [girls as well I suspect]..started working in Asia, and giving the ATO the impression that they were based there as well, where in fact they were still living in OZ.

Their "false" Asian addresses were discovered....and the ATO put plans in place to stop the activity.

Pity about the long standing Rotorheads/Engineers who spend more time away than in Oz getting snared due to the selfish attitude of some recent newcomers.

[sling load]

Im interested in exploring this more, if you are working in another country and paying the full tax rate there but tour out of Australia, what do you have to declare to the ATO?

[Steve76]

My understanding was it was bugg@r all if you are out of the country for more than 180days. Somewhere around 2%.
I may have confused that with NZ laws however.

[MPT]

G'day All,

Think it has gotten a little more involved than that lately. I seem to remember quite a long discussion on D & G a few weeks ago on this topic. Probably get some more info if you do a search over there.

Cheers,

MPT

[Steve76]

Imabell,
Coupla points champ....

* Never worked for HM. Never will.

* My first job in OZ was my 3rd in the industry. All previously in NZ.

* Signed up for frontal lobotamy and got citizenship in OZ, since I have spent more than half my life in OZ or PNG. LOVE the place.

* Plenty have tried to get on with those locals but few ever do. A couple of years was my limit. There is a first time for everything.. and that was mine. Still have a lot of friends with P&W thou

* Paid for my licence before the trans tasman agreement. Ask Doaky.

* No pilot owes any helicopter industry anything. I owe OZ nothing. I put in my blood sweat and tears downunder and got the rewards like any individual from any country working in OZ. Remember that immigrants built your country and the outback was opened up on the backs of chinese immigrants. Additionally, I received no help from any Australian but have helped plenty of aussies into good work up here.

In rebutal:

Your profile advertises you are with Bluetongue. Good on ya.
Obviously you are one of their instructors, so how about advertising your work history so we know who you are?

Q: Remember a harley riding, league player you trained? One of the most decent and nicest guys I have worked with. Ask him about his outback experience and the 7 months of FREE work (slaving) that he did at KG. He ended up out on his arse as well. Then ask him why after his commercial licence that he couldn't hover the aircraft he had 100hrs in? The operator up there treated him like sh$t and used his labour for the sake of it. He was never going to get a job and they verbalised it behind his back. That is the type of company up there.

I replied to all previous thread in an honest manner. Perhaps I am overly pessimistic at times. However, the opportunities outback are few and far between and it is a crying shame to see blokes spend hard earned bucks for a job that just isn't there. The training organisations on both sides of the Tasman are blowing smoke up these guys arses. What pisses me off are these "guys" are my friends or me. I hate the deception that goes on and will gladly stand up for my mates. Everyone I knew at the rock was doing it hard: Fact.
Perhaps things have changed and I apologise now if that is the case. But be sure to do your homework.

I will gladly supply you names and phone #'s of guys who will say good and bad things about mustering. It is a go nowhere occupation. I have two guys here on the 76 who combined have 12000hrs of mustering and are counting there lucky stars they are out. Others are too far into it to escape. I love the lifestyle too, but it has a used by date.

What you do not realise is that an english guy has a limited work visa. He will hound the outback, spend more bucks and generally come up fruitless. Seen them come and seen them go.

The bottom line is basic. Don't get sucked in by the rhetoric. As Blue Tongue state in their introduction. It is hard and its all about who you know. ;) Good luck to you.

[MPT]

G'day Mike,

Mr. Bell gives some good advice there. Professionals have a really good PR thing going regarding their job prospects after training. The question to ask is "how many pilots did you train last year?" The answer will be significantly more than 5, I would imagine!

There are quite a few schools around with very good reputations for the standard of their training. I'm not excluding PHS here, but my plan would be to visit / contact as many of these "quality" schools as possible before forking out my 40 grand. The cost of a couple of TIF's would be a good investment IMHO. Feel free to email me if you want any contacts / phone numbers, etc.

Good luck mate,

MPT

[Aladdinsane]

For those who may not be aware there are 2 operators at the 'Rock'. I would suggest calling/emailing both of the companies and touch base with the boys/girls actually doing the time.

Both operations are linked with Melbourne based training schools and of course both training schools would mention the fact that 'some' of the students do get the opportunity to fly punters around at the 'Rock'. I know for a fact that no promises are made. It would be a very short sighted policy to do so.

This is no different to other schools claiming a link or association with other sectors of the industry (mustering springs to mind) in a bid to attract students. As long as no promises are made then they are only stating fact.

[Mark Six]

I started the original discussion on D&G a few weeks back when I was emailed a copy of the amended tax law by the ATO. I published the amendment on D&G but didn't keep a copy myself, otherwise I would post it here. From that, and other correspendence I had with the ATO on the proposed amendment it appears that anyone doing normal helicopter tours (4 on/4 off, 6 on/6 off, etc), will be liable to pay Australian tax on the whole amount, just as if it had been earned in Australia. I think you get credit for any tax paid overseas but basically you will be forking out the same amount of total tax as you would on Australian sourced income. It all boils down to how much time you spend in Australia. I think you are allowed something like 60 days per year in Oz on top of "normal" annual leave (whatever that is), before you are considered to be residing in Australia, and therefore subject to normal Australian tax on your TOTAL foreign income. No doubt everyone will have their own interpretation so ask an accountant or talk to the ATO direct.

[fredmcknight]

Yeah Airwork Helicopters are a good training organization, however you wont get a job from them, You might be lucky and get some scenic stuff with PHS or the Helicopter group both out of YMMB. ( I do hope those Brit pilots flying at the Rock have the proper Visa's and are not here stealing an Australians job. If they have the right to work here thats fine)
Steve i think i might have met you up at KT i was there looking for work a few years ago now, never got any and still havent found any!!! I remember the CP telling me "we got this 76 pilot working as a slave at the moment and about five other pilots in town waiting for his spot!!! I knew ARAB and had a bit of an accent
Anyhow i think most of the flying schools in OZ are pretty good, but it is very hard to get a start unless
1. You know the right people
2. You jump on the dole and work in the hanger for free!!!!!
3. You are just very very lucky
I dont agree with number two which is probably why i'm not working in the helicopter industry
Cheers

[imabell]

steve 76,

i answered your email before i read your repy in the forum so i will reply again, and yes is was not good what happened to gn , i was as disappointed as you seem to be. he played fror my local footy team while he was doing his flight training, we were all sad to lose a good player. what happened to graeme is very typical of what happens to many who try to break in to the australian helicopter industry. but i promise you he was very well warned before he started training, as all should be.

as i said in the private mail to you mustering is not a dead end go nowhere job in fact it is the largest part of the australian helicopter industry with nearly a third of the fleet engaged in it.
not that we have big fleet here, only about 800 machines in total.

friends that started in helicopters at helimuster and gained their experience there include four pilots that now work for, qantas, 707 captain, emirates, 777 check and training, chc, check and training on super pumas to name but a few. there are many success stories

i apologise to you here as i did in my private mail if you take offence at someone defending the system.

it is regrettable that so many pilots shell out so much money and don't achieve the goal of a working pilot but there are only so many jobs to go around. i have stated the statistics of aussie industry in the past and as long as we keep punching out as many hopefulls as we do it is not going to improve in the near future and tales of woe will continue to be heard.

those that succeed are the lucky ones that were there at the right time and place, like i was, and then it seems to all fall into place but for all the rest, and there are many many more of them, it's back to the old job.

as far as my backgound goes yes i do work for bluetongue helicopter services, (it is in my profile), as an instructor and i have trained about 250 commercial helicopter pilots (90% working) and i did tell the boss about what i wrote???. did he get up me?? :rolleyes:

you'll have to ask him youself,

graeme gillies ;)

[Steve76]

Gidday Grahame,

Check your PM's

Steve76

[Dynamic Component]

MikeHUK,

Depending on where you want to go.
Try Bankstown Helicopters in Sydney if you're heading that way.Prices are good and they have a variaty of machines.

you can find their details on the net.

[RoamingCyclic]

Thanks Guys,

Seems that those of us that had the B's to leave our secure little jobs in Aus to seek a "Realistic Living" O/S are about to be screwed again! Good Old Aussie Government.

Thanks for the input guys.
Best Regards.

[MaxNg]

Mark six

Can you give us some idea of the tax thresholds in Oz at present, I just wondered how it compared to the UK

[Mark Six]

MaxNg,
Sorry mate, I live in Hong Kong and I'm a bit out of touch with the scales. I wouldn't want to give you the wrong information but I seem to remember the top rate is close to 50%. For what it's worth the maximum rate in Hong Kong is 15%.

[Randy_g]

For the chart on the ATO's tax rates go to http://www.ato.gov.au/content.asp?doc=/content/Individuals/12333.htm

0-6000 no tax
6,000-20,000 17%
20,001-50,000 30%
50,001-60,000 42%
60,001+ 47%
plus the medicare levy of 1.5%

Unfortunately when you have a large area and a small population taxes tend to be higher. If Australia only had to deal with an area the size of Sydney then your taxes would be quite a bit lower.

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

[captk]

Has anyone got the email address for Helicopters (Australia) I can't seem to find it anywhere.:)

[John Eacott]

[email protected] came up the web site, which you can find here (http://members.iinet.net.au/~cabha/)

[captk]

Many thanks for the email address John. :) I seem to have lost my H.A. contacts since Dennis left.

[Steve76]

Ahhhh... yep yep yep... no worries mate....yep yep yep.
:D

[Randy_g]

I wanted to know what expatriate actually means, so I looked it up. According to www.dictionary.com:

"ex·pa·tri·ate Pronunciation Key (k-sptr-t)
v. ex·pa·tri·at·ed, ex·pa·tri·at·ing, ex·pa·tri·ates
v. tr.
To send into exile.
To remove (oneself) from residence in one's native land.

v. intr.
To give up residence in one's homeland.
To renounce allegiance to one's homeland.

n. (-t, -t)
One who has taken up residence in a foreign country.
One who has renounced one's native land.

adj. (-t, -t)
Residing in a foreign country; expatriated:"

So by my reckoning, if you are no longer a resident of Australia, a true expat. then you are not bound by Australian tax laws, only the laws of the country where your primary residence is located. However, if your primary residence is still in Australia then you are not an expat, and must abide by Aussie tax laws. :( It sucks, but I think most countries are that way now. Gov'ts love to get their grubby mitts on any money they can, any way they can now.

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

[Bluey Zarseoff]

The word around the campfire is that another co-joe has resigned so get your applications in now.

[TorqueSplit]

After this subject first came up, I did a bit of research on the ATO web site, and came across ruling IT2015. This concerns those working equla time tours overseas, and, in effect, says that in that case, if you're working everyday, exceeding the 40 hour working week, and not accruing leave, then the time off does not constitute a break in foreign service.

Therefore, under the 91 day rule, no tax is payable. If anyone else has read this ruling, I'd like to hear how you interpret it.

I gather the ATO is gunning for those pilots working for asian airlines, but living in Australia, not those genuinely living overseas for half their lives.

TS

[SASless]

Randy.....for what it is worth....there are about 260 million US citizens for a country about the same size as OZ.....and our rates are about 17%/28%/33%.......don't have the exact numbers to hand....thus I am sure someone will trump me. We would have had a real tax break under the new administration but we are still paying off Bill Clintons paternity suits!

[Mark Six]

TorqueSplit,
I have found the amendment as sent to me by the ATO and it is posted in its entirety below. As you say, normal time off does not constitute a break in foreign service, however it appears the amendment puts a limit on such breaks at a total of approx. 60 days per year. If you exceed that the whole lot will be taxed at Australian rates. I rang the ATO official responsible for taking submissions prior to the amendment becoming law, and quoted the specific example of a helicopter pilot doing 6 on/6 off tours. I was told quite categorically that a pilot in this situation would be subject to full Australian tax as a result of the amendment. The problem is that unless you get a ruling prior to commencing a touring job, you may not know whether or not your interpretation was correct until you get audited.


Income tax: foreign tax credit system: issues relating to the practical application of section 23AG


The following changes to TR 19/15 apply from 17 July 2002.

· Add the following paragraph:

9A. Whether a person is absent from foreign service because of recreation leave is a question of fact. However, for subsection 23AG(6) to apply, the recreation leave taken in Australia or elsewhere during a period of foreign service must be attributable to the period during which the person was engaged in foreign service. This means that, for the purposes of subsection 23AG(6), recreation leave can only arise where it accrues during the days that a person is actively engaged in foreign service. Annual leave that meets the requirements of subsection 23AG(6) will be regarded as recreation leave.

· Replace the content contained in subparagraph 11(b) with the following:

A period of foreign service is taken to include weekends, public holidays, rostered days off, ‘compulsory lay off/over days’, ‘grounded days’ and flexidays (which are not ‘available days’ spent in Australia), and days off in lieu of such, provided:
(i) such breaks are authorised by the terms and conditions of the foreign service employment or engagement; and
(ii) where such breaks are used by the person to visit or return to Australia they must not be excessive by comparison with the scheduled period of foreign service or, if the period of foreign service is ongoing, by comparison with the income year. As a guide, the Commissioner considers that where such breaks are used to visit or return to Australia, they will be excessive where the total of such breaks are more than one-sixth of the period of scheduled foreign service or, if the period of foreign service is ongoing, more than one sixth of the income year. Therefore, where the total of temporary absences is excessive in terms of this paragraph, each temporary absence will be taken to break the foreign service period, subject to section 23AG(6A) to (6E).
Rostered days off, compulsory lay off/over days, grounded days and flexidays are not considered to be recreation leave for the purposes of section 23AG(6). That is because such absences are not recreation days that are granted as a result of leave that has accrued while a person is actively engaged in foreign service.
Available days spent in Australia are not considered to be a period of foreign service. Where an employee spends available days in Australia, this period is considered to be a break in foreign service, unless subsections 23AG(6A) to (6E) apply. That is because such time is not recreation leave for the purposes of subsection 23AG(6), nor does it come within any of the temporary absences set out in paragraph 11 of this Ruling. If available days are spent in a foreign country, it is considered that those days will form part of the foreign service period.

· Add the following paragraph:

31A. The following is an example where temporary absences spent in Australia would be regarded as excessive.
Pilots
An international pilot resides in Australia and is employed by a foreign airline on an ongoing basis. During the 2003 income year, the pilot flies for approximately 800 hours. She is entitled to six weeks annual leave and also has other days where she is not actively performing service, such as compulsory lay off days, grounded days and rostered days off, which in conjunction with her recreation leave she chooses to spend in Australia.

Typically, the pilot flies internationally (including stopovers and rests) for ten days and receives six days off. Assume that each six day period is spent in Australia and falls within the types of temporary absences set out in paragraph 11(b) of this Ruling. She also has an absentee credit balance - section 23AG(6B) - of three days at the start of the 2003 income year. Looked at over the 2003 income year, this means the pilot spends approximately 120 days (in addition to six weeks annual leave) in Australia on those absences covered by paragraph 11(b) of this Ruling.

In judging whether the 120 days spent in Australia during the income year is excessive in terms of paragraph 11(b) of this Ruling, the Commissioner considers that as a guide the total of such breaks spent in Australia should not be more than one-sixth of the income year (61 days) because there is ongoing foreign service. In this case, the number of days spent in Australia during the income year on temporary absences covered by paragraph 11(b) of this Ruling is 120 days and is clearly excessive.

This means that each time the pilot returns to Australia during the 2003 income year for the six day break, there is a break in foreign service, unless there are sufficient absentee credits accumulated in accordance with section 23AG(6B). In this case, the absentee credit of three days at the start of the year would be extinguished the first time the taxpayer returns to Australia during the 2003 income year for a six day break.

Moreover, throughout the year there would not be sufficient absentee credits that accumulate each time there is foreign service to cover the pattern of six day breaks. This means that each time the taxpayer returns from a ten day period of foreign service during the income year for a six day break, there is a break in foreign service.
As a result, there is no period during the income year where the foreign service period is for 91 continuous days or more. Therefore, the pilot will not be entitled to the exemption under section 23AG.


· Add the following paragraph:

31B. The following is an example where temporary absences spent in Australia would not be regarded as excessive.

Frank is an Australian resident. As a helicopter pilot, he enters into a one-year employment contract to work for a company that operates in the Papua New Guinea and Indonesian areas. The contract runs from 1 July 2002 to 30 June 2003. During that year, Frank habitually returns to Australia on days off in lieu of weekends and rostered days off. In total, he returns to Australia on these temporary absences for 50 days during the 2003 income year.

The temporary absences covered by Frank’s return to Australia fall within the type of absences contemplated by paragraph 11(b) of this Ruling and are not excessive by comparison with the scheduled period of foreign service (50 days out of 365). Therefore, each time Frank returns to Australia on these breaks, such breaks are taken to be part of Frank’s foreign service period. Consequently, Frank is entitled to a section 23AG exemption during the 2003 income year in respect of his employment income as a helicopter pilot.


Commissioner of Taxation
17 July 2002

Related Rulings etc:
These changes previously issued in draft Taxation Determination TD 2002/D3.

ATO references:
NO T2001/013093
BO

[mafesto]

I have attached another opinion for all those who like myself have been very worried about our collective predicament re Aussie tax status....but rest assured the ATO is like CASA ....you ask one person you get one answer ask another and it is a completely different reply! SO here it is IF you are on a touring basis then you are EXEMPT from Aussie tax as the time off IS NOT CONSIDERED a break in service....I already know of one bloke who has a written ruling from the ATO which states this secondly if you wish to claim NON resident status which will also see your Ausie tax liability removed you must prove that your ABODE is o/s...you can still have a residence in Australia but you must fulfil the definiton of abode..see ATO website...if you get audited and you claim non res but have a wife and kids in Oz unless like many of us you are on the outer in that department then you'll have a hard time claiming non-res status....The ATO should realise that those of use who earn our $ o/s are net importers of foreign currency and we still pay 10% CGT on everything anyway so we contribute ....perhaps if anyone gets stung by the ATO a call to Alan Jones may move some pollies to reasses the ATO's position anyway see what a group of beans counters have said this is their job to interpret such regs we should stick to what we know and leave the rest to the experts.

HORWATH
Tax Alert
Horwath Perth
Chartered Accountants
A Member of Horwarth International
TAXATION RULING TR 96/15 -
ADDENDUM
"ISSUES RELATING TO THE PRACTICAL APPLICATION
OF SECTION 23AG" - DON'T PANIC

Following the recent release of the addendum to Taxation Ruling TR 96/15, a number of changes were made to the original ruling to clarify the issue of rest and recreation leave and whether certain breaks in Foreign Service can be attributed to that Foreign Service. This will have no effect on Australian residence employees working overseas on fly-in fly-out work cycles. The addendum specifically addresses pilots with ‘grey days’ (grounded days, compulsory lay off days and rostered days off) which are in addition to recreation leave.

The addendum provides that period of Foreign Service is taken to include weekends, public holidays, rostered days off; compulsory lay off/over days,
And days in lieu of such, provided that these breaks are authorised by the terms and conditions of the Foreign Service employment or engagement and where such breaks are used by the person to visit Australia, they are not excessive in comparison to scheduled period of Foreign Service. Note, that these days are not considered to be recreation leave for the purpose of subsection 23AG (6).

The Commissioner of Taxation considers that where such breaks are more than one-sixth of the income year (61 days), they may be considered excessive and thus may not be included in an employee’s Foreign Service period.

It is important to note that this does not apply to rest and recreation leave as rest and recreation leave can be directly attributed to and is earned as a result of foreign service. Rest and recreation leave is not rostered days off. Rest and recreation leave is specifically included in an employee’s foreign service period in accordance with section 23AG of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1936. Therefore the addendum will have no change to a contract or arrangement where an where an employee has a work cycle of, for example, 28 days in a foreign country followed by 28 days of rest and recreation leave.

[Brudda]

Utter drivel and misinformation


Unfortunately when you have a large area and a small population taxes tend to be higher. If Australia only had to deal with an area the size of Sydney then your taxes would be quite a bit lower.
:mad: :rolleyes:
Most of Australia's poulation is very high density (over 2/3 in 5 major cities) the rest mostly on the dense east coast habitat.

Unfortunate thing is most countrymen actually believe above spin from the dear people in govt and ato who have propagated this bullsh*t for so long that in has been ingrained into our culture.

The REAL reason income taxes ARE (not tend) higher:

1. extremely large section of poulation avoiding tax (eg small business and buliding and tradesmen.
2. extreme amounts of: govt administration, unecessary govt jobs, govt projects, etc (see Australian submarine industry)
3. large corporations, banks, etc avoid taxes in Australia
:eek:

Any Australian working OS should NOT avail any information to the ato. Setup your salary paid into an offshore account - offshore countries have no income tax or laws pertaining to and bank accounts are kept private (www.wallstreetglobal.com)
if necessary obtain another offshore passport for travel on.
Finally do not vote for any Australian govt that has income tax rates above 30% as part of their policy. :cool:

[VH-WASA]

To all you fellow Aussies round the world that have elected to work in professional positions overseas because the Australian income tax of 47%, plus the extra 10% GST tax plus the 1.5% Medicare levy tax and now the mongrels are considering an extra war tax. Just makes it impossible to get ahead here. Even if you work overseas you still have to declare your earnings to the Australian Tax Office. This mongrel Australian government encourage Superannuation savings for retirement, well you pay 15% tax on contributions, 15% tax on earnings and another 15% tax on final payout, what a laugh, the only country in the world that taxes super three times. There must be ways around this, apart from giving up your residential status here by having to move permanently overseas so you can earn a decent living to have a well deserved and comfortable lifestyle, have you found discreet ways of getting around this so that you don't have to pay this mongrel government anything of your well earned dollar?Sounds like tax free off-shore banking is the only way to go. there are only two ways to get ahead in Australia, be a politican or be unemployed with 4 or 5 kids living in sub standard conditions.

[NeilBetts]

Can any of you help me with regards operations that offer hour building in either Oz or NZ. Did hear of a guy who was happy to let you fly his Bell 47 while he was doing his commercial work and charged a low hire rate.

Am commercially qualified with NZ licence and am returning to NZ early next year to get my instructors rating to try and get my hours up to a point where people will atleast look at me.

Did get offered a position with Cabair last year as a Trainee Instructor in their part-sponsorship prog but not only did they want to sign me in to a 2yr contract at 12,000 pounds a year but wanted a further 24,000 pounds to bring me up to UK CAA spec even though I have a full NZ CPL(H) licence!!

Have also done a trip to Canada to find a job but no joy after travelleing 2500miles in BC. So any help will be most appreciated!

Thanks
Neil

[Helicopter ringer]

I have also been told that you can pay to fly with someone who is already working, you are sort of training/hour building. I am in the same boat as you trying to score a job with low (130 hours) and would be very interested if anyone could post or e-mail me the details of anyone who will do this !
I have a cattle background and really want to get into the mustering side of the business but i need to get those command hours for the endorsement
Thanks for any advice

[soggyboxers]

Neil,
I've never worked for Cabair, but can assure that they were not trying to con you. You are one of the many people who have travelled to Canada, New Zealand and Australia and then discovered (too late) that the UK CAA will not recognise your licence (though they will give credit for half the hours you flew whilst gaining it to count towards the 150 you need for your UK commercial). It should be a warning to other would-be commercial pilots from UK seeking cheap training overseas to attend a schoool such as HAI (for whom I have also never worked, so I have no self-interest here) where it is possible to get a UK or JAA licence.
Have you thought of approaching a company like Bristow? They used to have an ab-initio training scheme and although it is now defunct, if you catch them at a time when they are in the market for new copilots they may offer you something. However, this will also probably consist of going to HAI in USA and signing a training bond - but at least you'd have a guarantee of employment with a large operator, with a reasonable salary at the end of it. Once you'd got a few years in with them you could apply to go to one of their overseas operations or look for employment elsewhere. I don't think they're hiring at the moment, but it would probably be worth sending your CV to Scotia in Aberdeen as well.
Good luck.:)

[NeilBetts]

Thanks for the reply and wasn't trying to claim that Cabair was trying to con me. My point was that its a whole hill of money to spend and then be locked in on a pitance for 2yrs when it could be used to hour build with a commercial operation and be free to move if I wanted to.
The reason I learnt in NZ was due to personal reasons and am now back in the UK til early next year when I'll try to find work in Oz or NZ.
So if anyone knows of companies out there willing to do hour building at competitive rates please let me know

[Finalgearup]

Sorry to drag this one up again but I've been studying this and related posts and am still trying to get my head around it.

Say I am resident for tax purposes, ie house, wife & kids in Aus. But, I'm employed for an airline o/s. The airline is based in a country that has a dual taxation agreement with Aus. I manage to get maybe 8 (non-leave) days off per month in a block and I spend that time in Aus.

Do I:

1. Pay tax overseas only?
2. Pay tax overseas, claim it back and then pay tax to ATO, or
3. Pay tax overseas and then pay the difference between o/s and Aus tax to the ATO?

What happens if I am exempt from paying tax in the airline's base country because I spend most of my time out of that country on trips, which is the case? Do I then pay full tax to ATO?

I'm sure there are a lot of really smart guys out there who know how this works. Any advice hugely appreciated.

[R405]

Some photos flying around Sydney
http://hoore.com/ext/bridgeclimb_thumb.jpg
http://hoore.com/ext/16r_small.jpg

[sprocket]

This is a link to Cairns.

Cairns Airport (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/236329/M/)

[tippathplane]

Hi, I have just gained my CPL H and am now looking for that first elusive position. I know people say go north but north is a big area in this country.
Can anyone tell me what operators are looking for in a new employee?
Where up north are the places that will hire new pilots?
Any hints or tips?
What are the best machines to be endorsed on?
Do people mind you phoning them or are they pestered by hundreds of phone calls everyday?
Any idea of how many new pilots are doing the rounds trying to find that first opening?
I have a cattle background and would like to get into aerial mustering but it seems like they have lines of pilots queing up to wait for a place.
I posted this cause i have no idea about your industry but really want to learn the ropes and prepare myself for my trip back up the top end, any help suggestions, advice or just having a laugh at my expense is welcome.
Thanks in advance

[the wizard of auz]

Tippathplane, PM me some details, hours, types and background. I might have a lead for ya.

[overpitched]

I would have thought that if you have good cattle experience a job in the top end wouldn't be too hard to come by. Forget the phone you are wasting your time.

Sell everything you own pack up the ute and head off. I would certainly visit NAH in Catherine and Heliwork in Kununurra. When you find an operator you like and a town you like, pull up get a job and keep on to them.

The hiring in the top end will start up again soon (feb & March) and you will need to be in place ready to start at a moments notice(or less). The guys on the spot get the jobs thats why you need to pick the company. If you are not around when they need you they will get somebody that is.

If you want to chase cattle obviously its all r22. If you are going to have a crack at top end tourist work don't bother talking to anyone until youv'e got that 47 endorsement.

Good Luck

[Helibloke]

Just like overpiched said, You must head up to Kununurra, mt isa, karumba or anywhere that has alot of Helicopters, get yourself known and keep going in to the operation. They are all small towns really, so get to know the pilots/staff and wait it out. If they need a new low time pilot and your on the spot then your in and that will lead to hours/experience and more opportunities.
Just my two cents worth
Good luck

[John Eacott]

The Poms will appreciate this one........

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Suzie%20Treasure%20Hunt%2002.jpg

[topcat450]

I'm following Johns Camera everywhere it goes! :\ I think I'm in love......

<Just another Pomme>

[John Eacott]

More of the interesting side of flying in Australia:


http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/heliredbull3%5b1%5d.jpg

TC,

Suzie Perry, Skyrunner for Treasure Hunt, BBC TV programme which has just filmed some overseas episodes for viewing in UK this month and May.

Another skiing shot:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/AndreaBerchtold%2002.jpg


http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Helicopter%2001%20cropped.jpg

[ShyTorque]

John Eacott,

(With regard to your piccy of 4th April).

Wow! Lovely fuselage, gorgeous smooth lines. I'll bet she handles like a dream.

And I've just noticed there's a helicopter in the background, that's quite a nice one too.

Someone is a very lucky man. Is it yourself? If not, don't worry, your secret is safe with us. ;)

[bellsux]

Well if you were with me at the Crowne Plaza in Alice Springs sitting by the pool with a beer and working on my tan... next to Suzie who was also working on hers albeit minus her top and just a g string bikini bottom... then you might have had a really interesting photo!! :) ahh I love my job!! (sometimes)

[John Eacott]

Bell,

So where's the photo? ;)

[IHL]

John Eacott:

John ; What's all that white crap in the background? Your in Australia, aren't ya ?

[Capt Hollywood]

Here's a couple of pics from a movie I did in Central Australia a couple of years ago. It was filmed under the working title of 'Down & Under' but has just been released as 'Kangaroo Jack'. Had a ball doing the job but I don't think it will win any oscars!. Painting the aircraft for the scenes took them about three days, filming took two days and then after returning the machine to it's original paint sceme they realised they had forgotten to film a particular scene so they went and painted it again! It's not that hard to see where the millions go!

Hollywood :cool:

http://www.phs.com.au/Police%20chopper.jpg

http://www.phs.com.au/Police%20chopper%202.jpg

[John Eacott]

IHL,

We have the warmer months, sometimes......

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Water%20pick%20up%2003.JPG

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Resize%20of%202_11452324.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/JGO%20@%20Hawkesbury%20fires.jpg

[T_richard]

Mr Eacott

Excuse me, is that woman: A a pilot, B an Australian and are there more like her in Australia? Sorry to interrupt, just had to ask.

[Ascend Charlie]

I have been wondering where the next generation of achievers is? In my somewhat-isolated situation, I no longer get to meet many young pilots any more.

But for industry associations like the Helicopter Association of Australia (HAA) there is a definite shortage of up-and-comers. Us grumpy old mongrels have almost run out of puff trying to achieve objectives in the face of CASA resistance and incompetence, and apparent lack of support from below. The seiously talented office-bearers like Dan Tyler in Sydney and Rob Rich and Ian Paull in Queensland also have their own businesses - and retirement - to look after. They have spent years - and in Dan's case, decades - of effort for no compensation, to improve our industry.

But we cannot see where the new blood is. Where are the people passionate about the industry in which they are making a living? Those who have a reasonably secure job, and a bit of spare time to devote to an industry association? Who have a way with words, and an understanding of how seriously things like Part 133 are going to kill off the job you are anticipating?

All I can see so far is a group of shoulder-shruggers, who say "Why should I join HAA (or AOPA, or RAAA), what will they do for me?"

The short answer is: Nothing. It is up to YOU to do something if you want a job next year.
:ugh:

[gulliBell]

Most of the new young Oz achievers are all out of Oz working as expats earning a decent living whilst they can!! They have seen what's on offer at home and have seen the light...things are much better elsewhere! Tax free USD salaries, touring (4&4, 6&6, 8&4 or whatever), travel to exotic locations, good equipment (multi-turbine)... er...need I say more?

[B.Loser]

Hey there', GB,

Tax free USD salaries, touring (4&4, 6&6, 8&4 or whatever), travel to exotic locations, good equipment (multi-turbine)

...can ya point me in the direction of one of them jobs...,

...please? :p :p

[topcat450]

But we cannot see where the new blood is. Where are the people passionate about the industry in which they are making a living? Those who have a reasonably secure job, and a bit of spare time to devote to an industry association? Who have a way with words, and an understanding of how seriously things like Part 133 are going to kill off the job you are anticipating?

:) If someone on here would kindly sort me out with the secure job...(FLYING job that is folks...I get enough offers of cleaning cars)...I'll gladly divert my spare time into whatever you want....you want a squash partner..I'm your man...want me to look after your wife/daughter..I'll be there for ya...want me to write letters...easy ... just need to get that good job in the first place. :O

[helipilotnz]

i was a passionate tradesman till i started learning to fly. once i get a flying job i will be more than happy to throw my life into it.

helipilotnz

[Bungraman]

B.Loser and Top Cat ....... I have to agree with a there. The only new blood in the Ozzie Heli industry are RINGERS....... and they are battling to read let alone write!!!!! :ok:

[vorticey]

how much does it cost? i think thats why im not a member.

[the wizard of auz]

I can two rite, i can read reel good two. yoo jus dont no two many ringas, thas al. most of us got lerned reel good so wee can do the testes. wee can fite reel good two budy so yoo bedda wach out. Oh did I mention I have a CPL(A) and my ATPL subjects as well, Oh and I own my own twin (yeah yeah Guanty, I know). :rolleyes:

[Spaced]

All of us young blood are still living on water with a bit of bread trying to pay to get our CPL(H).

[lills]

You've talked me into it !!

Where do I sign...........

[the wizard of auz]

Apparently, If your a ringer, you cant, due to the fact that you dont have any writing ability. Dont worry mate, I used a burnt stick and signed an X and that was alright. ;)

[Red Wine]

Hours in the seat is just an indication of how long you have been taking money for the ultimate enjoyment, or paying money to be there.

The "employment capability" of all potential pilots is not necassarily measured in hours in the book, more so in the motivation of the individual to achieve as high as skill as possible.

Before you race off to chase those few hours flying tourists around the Rock or the Reef, get back into the books................

Your ATPL and IREX subjects are worth more to the industry than a few hundred hours on a piston or turbine....!!!!

Burn the midnight oil.....it will be worth it.

[Bungraman]

Good in theory RED WINE. Try convincing the insurance companies that having below 500 hours constitutes far cheaper premiums!!
I too have ATPH & IREX but under 500......but still no job for me????? :{

[bellsux]

RedWine.. All depends on where they want to go and what they want to do.. Getting their IREX and their ATPL(H) would be nice but that is a lot of cash and time and the big two won't touch them unless they have the min hrs req. Most other small operators couldn't give a rats if they did hold the subjects, even a bit sus to the fact that they might be using them as a stepping stone. Still the fact that there are more than plenty of pilots that bend over and take it up the pooshute just to get into the industry with low or no pay seems to point out the obvious that most of the newcomers will take any job that they can get.

[DIVINE WIND]

Hey Chuck,
maybe the smart ones are now making a real salary in a decent & secure industry.
:p

[pohm1]

Red Wine
I'd say that ATPL(H) and IREX are next to useless without at least 500 hours in the book. A pilot with no more than 105 hours and both the theory passes is still a pilot with no experience, even a pilot with 500 hours is still at the bottom of a steep learning curve.

Once you have the job, then get the study done, so that when the ads for pilots are in the press you have the experience and qualifications ready on your CV. Without the job you could be pouring more good money away.

[Red Wine]

Sorry but I disagree...........

Looking at it from another viewpoint................

An aspiring CPL pilot with 500 hrs......or an aspiring CPL pilot with 200 hrs and ATPL and IREX........all personalities being the same....who will get the job?

Its a common discussion point within the industry......IREX and ATPL shows more than just a qualification............

It shows willingness to strive harder, shows you do have the mental capacity to pass that higher qual, and it illustrates your capacity to self improve yourself....

All attributes that employers look for......

Please don't feel that anyone with 500 hrs is going to be let loose in a machine in any PIC capacity........with a few Flight Schools/Charter Companies exceptions around the Rock.

You could hope/strive for a First Officers position......but there are hundreds of aspiring CPL's out there................but only a few with IREX and ATPL........and even less that feel the industry doesn't owe them anything.

Burn the midnight oil....

[pohm1]

If I were an employer looking to take on a low hour pilot in their first job, say to fly scenics, and I had the choice of your two applicants ie 200hrs and IREX/ATPL or 500hrs and no extra theory I would very likely go for the one with a few more hours. Those extra 300 hours are going to be a minimum of 350/400 extra take offs and landings, and maybe a bit of downwind or hot/high experience. Those first few of hundred hours are where you start to get a feel for the machine that you fly. My insurance company is most likely to support the decision as the theory means nothing to the excess!

When looking to move on from that first job I entirely agree, 1000hrs and IREX/ATPL may make a candidate preferable to one who had done nothing to further his theory knowledge.

And I am burning that midnight oil!

[gulliBell]

The proof is in the pudding guys..I got my first job with only 190 hours total helicopter, but ONLY because I had my IREX subject passed. That got me in the left hand seat of an S76 and earning a decent salary (like I mean, earning MONEY to fly helicopters!!), during which I studied in my own time and passed the ATPL exam. Passing the ATPL exam got me a big pay rise and a ticket over to the right hand seat in an S76. I've never looked back since starting out, never worked for free, never swept a hanger floor to "earn" a few hours. All I did was study hard, learn my craft from other professionals, and now with 3 twin-command endorsements (none of which I've had to pay a cent for) there are plenty of jobs going around from which I can choose. I could have had 500 or 1,000 hours and it still wouldn't have got me that first job without the IREX, and I'd still be flying an R22 (if anything at all). Instead I'm installed in a nice big B412, or if I feel like a change ocassionally I can go fly an S76, or if I'm really desperate then back to "stick and rudder" flying in a B212. And I've still only got 190 hours total R22, just like I had when my first pilot job landed at my feet. So, speaking from experience, to all you basic CPL's out there, go get your IREX and ATPL subjects passed as soon as you can, and don't go paying for any additional endorsements. It won't cost you much if you study privately (like I did), and it could lead to your dream job and a future as a helicopter Captain.

[DIVINE WIND]

Yeah,yeah,yeah,
But which one of you is aspiring to become the next president of the HAA?:eek:

[Red Wine]

Keep studying.......


The points that "gulliBell" makes are not isolated ones.

[Ascend Charlie]

Yes, Divine Wind, that is the question!!

Gullibell sounds like an ideal candidate for the HAA Executive. He has "Get up and go", not somebody for whom it already got up and went. Initiative, doesn't mind some hard work, lots of industry experience, should understand the rules affecting the helo industry.

OK, that's got the president sorted, now who will be the Treasurer? This is a fun job, I had it for 7 years and then joined the list of burnt-out execs.

Plenty of committee positions too. Just list your names below::D

[pohm1]

Red Wine and GulliBell,

Three phone calls re co pilots in Australia.
Bristows-min 500hrs pic & IREX.
CHC-min 300hrs pic more often 500 & IREX.
HA- don't need them anymore.

Hours seem to be the main thing to get, once you are racking them up get the study done. Its not cheap but once working in the industry its tax deductable.

GulliBell- you seem to have had a smooth ride into the industry, was it some time ago? (Not trying to be funny, but those breaks don't come too often now, even into the co pilot spaces.)

Also one company seems reluctant to move copilots into captains slots without a large slice of PIC time, so you could get into a dead end, ie no PIC time=no captains slot, no captains slot=no PIC time. I'd love to be proved wrong, but thats the way it has appeared recently.

I've got the IREX, am doing ATPL and counting up the hours as we speak. I vowed not to spend any more money after the completion of licence and turbine endorsement until I was working. It's too easy to pour cash away in this industry, pay for what you need, but not before you can use it.

All the young achievers have got their heads in the books, not reading PPRUNE!

[Red Wine]

You are putting far to much reliance on hours.............

How is your interviewing technique?.....your ability to breeze through the pre employment testing?....your tracking record, appearance, proven motivational aspects....these are what the industry is focusing on now.

If you really rang a number of local operators, all you got was the standard answer.......

If you fit the bill, and they want you....a few hundred hours will not be a consideration.

All you have to do is to become the wanted one!!!.....the one that stands out in the crowd....the one that has gone that extra mile......ok ok I will bid you goodnight now.

[clearance]

Redwine... I totally agree with you.

If a company wants you they will give you what you need... eg Instrument Rating, Sling, Winch, NVFR etc. Just make yourself standout from the rest...

I should know I was a lucky Son of a B!@ch a long time ago. A company needed experienced FO's to operate on a major offshore contract they had won. I had less than 100 hours on a robbie, no turbine, no NVFR, no IREX, no ATLP subjects, no nothing!!!! and as such I didn't get a slot , however I put myself in a position to be noticed and was put on as a FO to replace the guys who went off to the new contract. I now enjoy a multi-enginge/IFR Captains position on a number of twins, even though it took me a while to get there, they gave me everything I needed.

Hang in there!:ok:

[vorticey]

there's no doubt about it, there is some lucky barstards out there (knowing somebody in a high place is a good one). i made a lot of phone calls but thats not the way to get your first job. driving 3600 km's didnt do it either. working in the hanger proved worthy though (i got a start at 77h heli).
and yes i would have my ATPL if it was'nt $2000 just for the books and what about the stupid money milking sceme from casa to do the exams?:yuk: ill do my irex first ($70 + exam i hope), cant afford anything else.:ok:

[The Auditor]

Well you asked for advice!!

Having trouble getting invited to an interview?

Firstly I would obtain the services of a very experienced writer of resumes!!

In your post, there are at least three spelling errors, poor grammar, and you used the "I" word at least eight times.

Hopefully you don't sign your applications: Mr. Selfish [Nick names are sometimes reflective of a person’s character].

Seriously, if any application letter is poorly written, and not addressed correctly, the Operations Support Folk will put it to one side, and the Chief Pilot may not ever get to read it.

Image, confidence, grooming and presentation in all its forms "may" get you through the door, but a poor application won't get you invited to the party!

[John Bicker]

Apart from offshore and some EMS why do you need an ATPL and IREX? These aren't the only jobs available are they? I guess if you want to be an offshore jockey so be it. Pretty narrow occupation though.

[Slotty]

Just wondering what an IREX is all about, how much flight and ground training is needed and what are the costs? Do you need a CPL first? Had a look on CASA but couldn't find any clear answers, many thanks.:confused:
Which Oz flight schools offer the course?

[Ascend Charlie]

I agree with John Bicker (how is the boat?)- the huge majority of jobs in Oz are in AS350 or smaller, Day VFR with the occasional Night VMC task. You need no more than your commercial licence and a night rating and a turbine endorsement to be prepared for almost anything.

When I interview new pilots, seeing a list of high qualifications with low hours means one thing - this person is ambitious and will jump ship at the first opportunity. BUT! This is to be expected. A charter operator must expect pilots to progress through the system. They learn new skills with the operator, use them for some time to become fully familiar with them, get put onto newer and bigger tasks, and eventually they are doing everything in that operator's bag of tricks.

This takes (from our normal pilot turnover) about 2 years. Then the ambitious move on. If the pilot is not ambitious, I wonder why, and have a closer look at his motivations for staying. We certainly don't push pilots out, and if one chooses to stay for 3 or 4 years we are very happy. But it tees me off when somebody is "promoted" with an aircraft endorsement and immediately pushes off.

Anybody with IREX and ATPL who only has <1000 hours will have lots of time on their hands waiting for the heavy twin IFR job, so why don't you sign up as the new HAA president???:uhoh:

[number9]

Ascend Charlie: Being a newbie thinking about getting a CPL(H), is that to say a student with <1000 hours is wasting their time getting IREX and ATPL(H)?

From your perspective, what's the best way to (initially) prove motivation when a candidate has the quals but low hours? Does the scenario you said impress you sufficiently?

Thanks,


Chris

[Ascend Charlie]

Well, i wouldn't say it was a waste of time - qualifications like that will always stand you in good stead. But there might be more important things to do.

We normally had a company minimum of 1000 hrs PIC, because the contracts we held stipulated this minimum. But on three occasions so far we have hired pilots with 400hrs PIC/800 copilot, and 2 at 700 hrs PIC. We had to put them on other tasks until their PIC time built up, but we took them on because they were keen, dedicated, presented well, and were going to have to stretch to fit the job.

They beat some old-timers who, instead of stretching themselves to be able to do it, were looking more to stretch out and snooze for a few years in a "cushy" charter job. Even though some had 5000 or 7000 hours, we took the junior guy because of attitude. I didn't care if they had IREX or ATPL because these attributes were superfluous to the job. CPLH, NVFR, sling preferable, and able to talk me into giving them the job.

[number9]

Ascend Charlie: Thanks for the reply. Though I imagine it differs in each person's case, what would you say are things that are sometimes more important?

Assume someone graduates to get their CPL with, hypothetically, 120 hours. What's the most common job for new recruits to improve their hours? Mustering cattle in the middle of nowhere? I mean, what're the most common paths to get to a point where someone in your position would hire them?

On another note, what's the relevance/benefit of having ATPL(H)? I mean, I can see how IREX might be beneficial, but I'm not too sure which jobs would requre ATPL and which ones wouldn't..

[Red Wine]

I gather all the folk giving advice about the wisdom of IREX and ATPL have studied the CASR drafts of Part 61, 91 and 133???

Even today there are limitations of what a CPL Holder can "Command"......under Air Transport in the new CASR's this "may" become more limiting.

I say "May" because Part 133 is still in draft form.

Mr Selfish......the IREX Examination may seem irrelevant if you are not an IFR pilot.....however it provides the basis for you to expand upon, as you develop your new skill.

[number9]

Mr Selfish: Great, thanks for that. :)

Red Wine: Would you please be able to give me a (very) quick overview of what the aforementioned rulings entail?

Or, better yet; is there a quick & easy reference anywhere as to what jobs require (either as an essential requirement or just something beneficial) which certifications? Thanks!

[DIVINE WIND]

ATPL & IREX
Having them out of the way certainly cannot do you any harm.If you got the time to do it then don't dick around listening to blokes tell that you will never need it.Maybe you won't.But you might aswell put yourself at the front of the line.Sure there are people who get on to fly larger ships in this country without them,but no command! Head up to NT.you will meet 10,000hr mustering jockeys and yes even they have or are studying for the ATPL.Keep your options open.
As far as the future president goes Charlie,just make sure it goes to some body who does not own their own chopper business.Already to much self-interest in this industry.:confused:

[Ascend Charlie]

Divine Wind: (isn't that the translation of "kamikazi"?)
Yes, that was a serious slip-up, wasn't it.

But he was the only person to put his hand up at the time, and with a volunteer organisation, we need volunteers. What could we do? Andhis election spiel was convincing, we thought he could be the New Young Achiever to keep us going.
Bong.
Wrong.
Take off all your clothes.:E

[John Eacott]

Good on you, terrific attitude DW. Wonder how the Vic/Tas HAA survived under the last two local chairmen, who are both operators.

Wonder why it's nearly defunct now, with little or no local interest, but plenty of your sort of outlook :(

[Red Wine]

I certainly don't want to muddy the waters here..........

But there has always been a distrust of the HAA due to the percentage of "Operators" involved.

However there is also a void of line personnel willing to do the tasks that the HAA are endeavoring to accomplish.

Catch 22.

[DIVINE WIND]

Catch 22 certainly RW and yes JE I see your point,but why nominate a national president who owns a business which advertises heavily in the most gulllible end of the industry and NO,this is not personal. Plenty of people have mistrust here.Why would a guy who mustered 7 days a week in a ****-box,out of time robbie for $200 a week really care.But then again that is the type of person who may be passionate enough to change things.I did not do this but I know plenty of guys who have.I have knocked back work from so called "industry legends".Why risk my own ticket & life while the boss makes a fortune.Why are these blokes still allowed to operate? My point is that I would be pretty annoyed if he then became president of an Association which is supposed to be representing me.
What I see is a group(HAA) which is not visible enough.The Victorian region is not a quiet one.
As for me I am off to the northern hemishpere after popping the big question.

[John Eacott]

The history of the HAA, from day 1, has involved lots of self achievers who have been willing to give of their time and labours for the good of the industry. Most have had their own business interests, which have generally been well seperated from any HAA conflicts. Dan Tyler, Terry Lee, Garry Ticehurst, Brett Newman and myself have all stepped forward, and generally all been tarred with the brush of "self interest".

Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future :confused:

[Av8r]

"Most have had their own business interests, which have generally been well seperated from any HAA conflicts."

Hahahaha.....stop it John, ....you're killing me.

Mack.

[DIVINE WIND]

Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future

Payer or payee,shafter or shaftee. The former is always happy to say "geez sorry mate,your just not capable yet,no I just don't think your ready for that next step,really son the new breed will just never have the skill we do":yuk: regardless of dedication or know-how untill of course your ready to give it away.Please don't take offence Charlie.So you see JE you now know where all the young achievers are.They are trying to open up a business next door to you if they see the opportunity.Hence self-interest.
Don't preach about income it is earned fair and square.:ouch:
Time,what spare time is a payee given to do anything else in between catching ZZZZZZZZZ'S.
The people you are wondering about don't owe you nothing.

[clearance]

Two years ago I spoke to and emailed Dan Tyler regarding setting up a "West Australian Chapter" for the 'HAA', at the time I was an AFAP Branch Committee member (representing the Rotory Wing 'RW' sector) and a member of the Airspace Advisory committee for WA and very much interested in development of same. After a brief chat and one or two emails I received an email that read 'At this time we believe we have adequate representation in WA for the HAA'... Oh I thought? that's strange I didn;t know of any?

At that time I had been in the RW industry for 14 years, worked all over Aus, and in my opinion I could offer not only a bit of experience but enthusiasm and membership support.

In 4 years of operationg in the Perth/Metro area for a large commercial company/operator I did not once here about or know of ANY HAA representation/interest over there.

The only reason I joined the AFAP in the first place was beacause the HAA was an absoulute joke at representing the RW Industry, the only thing that they represented was the names mentioned above...

PS: I rejoined the HAA early last year in order to show my support and as they say "put up or shut up". I can say that - nothing has changed! hence I have not renewed my subs this year.

:hmm: Wonder why there are few "New Young Oz Achievers"? Or at least those who will put in time for the industry that gives them an income and a future

[Av8r]

Yes Clearance, I too, when young, innocent, enthusiastic but inexperienced, went to two (I think) meetings of the Vic / Tas Region held at PHS if I recall.

John Eacott was at the helm, looking down his nose ‘at the new boy’.
What a bunch of pompous, self-serving, self-righteous gits.
I would assume nothing has much changed over the years.

The Presidency certainly was, and I guess still is, used as a marketing tool for the Presidents commercial business...for a fact.

That’s why it never amounted to anything….and probably never will.


Mack.

[clearance]

Av8R... I concur! However, having said that, let me say this... To be continued :)

Cheers Mack

[Ascend Charlie]

Wow - what a wakeup message this is.

I didn't think that the new generation had such bad feelings about the "about to hand over" generation.

In NSW, where I had personal knowledge, the couple of past presidents were Gary Ticehurst (Ch 2) and Dan Tyler (Careflight). Apart from gary's film interests, there were no commercial barrows to be pushed, and no reason to try to hold back or discourage new starters. Dan in particular, being one of the founding fathers of the HAA, was always saddened to hear of the conflicts of the VIC branch, and there was considerable blood-letting down there. At one stage that branch had the most members, numbering several hundred. Now there is lucky to be 20, and one of the most dedicated is a man who was kicked in the teeth by several of the executive and almost drummed out of town.

But now he is one of the only voices trying to shout out that we should look again at the HAA. He is trying to show the way ahead for a group, not the way that one high-profile individual is going which will almost certainly kill all hopes for public acceptance of heliports in suburban areas.

I can't apologise for the way you have been treated by past barrow-pushers. But don't give up on the HAA. It will only be by YOUR efforts that these others get voted out. There has to be an opposition to force a vote. If nobody stands up against someone they don't like, then that person will stay there for ever.:sad:

[trimpot]

Clearance and AV8R

Although I think you are a pair of bone-heads (only joking boys!) I do think you have hit the nail on the head. The HAA couldn't organise the proverbial in a brothel with a fistful of you subscriptions. I think the young achievers are waiting for the old guard to get out of the way or die so they can take the industry to the next level.:E

[clearleft]

There seems to be work around at the moment for young aussie achievers with a few hours.

The Australain seems busy with adverts, CHC, HA etc etc

Good to see.

[clearleft]

Has any one heard anything from Heli Aus after their recent advertisement for ESSO Captains???

[spinningwings]

Errrrr, you probably won't hear back from them ....unless you have their required experience ...in which case you will get a questionair to fill out and send back ....then you will not hear back from them at all ...unless they want you !!!! ..... A Very professional organisation! ;)

[ApocalypseThen]

For the Esso job(Captain) , ex-military instructors are strongly
preferred .

[straitman]

For the Esso job(Captain) , ex-military instructors are strongly preferred .

Not necessarily the whole story!

[imabell]

have never heard of the company .... heli aus.

please do not associate this advert with "heli-aust", heli aust is a very reputable long standing australian helicopter company and a major employer of professional pilots in australia.

[Chairmanofthebored]

...ok so isn't HeliAust the owner of (or heavily associated with ) Helimuster.
REALLY professional gang there with all those F*$ked R22's being flogged around the territory. I don't think HeliAust are really qualified to comment on the professionalism of other companies when considering their reputation and the links to the recent tragedy in Sydney.
If you work for HA in BS. Do not expect the same compensation that the previous captains where on...at least that is what I have heard. Its fairly typical of HA to sqeeze every last dollar when it comes to wages...

[Steve76]

I know for sure that the last captain taken on was not ex-military. It is pretty hard to find any pilots with 1500hrs command twin, let alone a military guy with that time.

[Red Wine]

Heli Aust = Helimuster=Sydney=A few 350's.....trying to break into the small end market.

HA=Helicopters Australia=Esso Pilot contract=Helicopters New Zealand....Marine Pilot in Karatha and a few bush machines.

Two completely seperate companies.

[straitman]

I know for sure that the last captain taken on was not ex-military. It is pretty hard to find any pilots with 1500hrs command twin, let alone a military guy with that time.

The facts for a change. :rolleyes:

Two of the last three were NOT ex military! :sad:

[Delta Julliet Golf]

Hi everyone,

Does anyone know a good flightschool in Australia to convert one's (dutch) CPL (and ATPL theory) to australian standards?

Thanks,
DJG

[charlie_s_charlie]

Try Chopperline based at Caloundra, Queensland. They are more geared towards training locals than some of other schools you will see around there, but their chief pilot Tub Matheson is about as good as they come. If he can't help you out, he will tell you who can
http://www.chopperline.com.au
Rgds,
Charlie

[charlie_s_charlie]

If machine type is an issue (ie not an R22 or B47) then Becker Helicopters about 30mins north of Chopperline operate 3 A-model Hughes 269 (plus a B47 and an a-star) and they can do all student-visas etc etc.

For what its worth, I trained at more than one school on the sunshine coast but settled with Chopperline in the end

Rgds,
Charlie

[Captain Lai Hai]

Be wary of the operator north of Caloundra
His marketing and sales pitch are very deceiving

[Check Revs]

G'day to all,

I wish to convert my CPL(A) to CPL(H) and was told by CASA I need to sit the 4 exams unique to helo flying ie. AGK, Aero D, Perf and Law.

I have all the study material for CPL(A) but nowhere in the material can I find any reference to helo's. At this stage it is not my intention to pay a lot of hard earned cash for the whole package again.

It would be appreciated if somebone could assist me in getting hold of the some material as I wish to get going on this. Yes, I know there are companies that sell the package but they are on the expensive side.

Thanks to all

"Go the Wallabies":ok:

[the wizard of auz]

you really need to take a course in legal trickery to pass these exams mate......... two down and two to go and havnt been tested on the subject matter yet, just been tried on all the tricks they can pull and managed to spot them in two exams....... failed the othrer two and have to resit them.

[Check Revs]

Thanks for the reply,

I sat the IREX exams about 18 months ago found a couple of sneaky ones hidden in there. In the end I managed to pass it first time round, Phew!!


Good luck with the re-sits.


Check Revs:ok:

[moosp]

Just finished the last of the four exams on 16th. :D

For the Law you will be fine if you just get all the 20 kilos of books out again and pour through them looking for helicopter references. An hour with an instructor pointing out the traps will be invaluable.

Perf you are going to need some help. I did two half days of groundschool (separated by a couple of months) to teach me the tricks of the exam. Wouldn't have passed it without. Depends on your area but give a school a ring and see what they charge. A case of Crownies might do it for an impoverished instructor (ie all of them...)

For CADH you really need to get a copy of Wagtendonk. The examiners already have. I tried to hack it with several very good helicopter aerodynamics books from around the world but the questions are looking for the Wagtendonk answer. It's very readable.

CSYH exam was half fixed wing anyway, hydraulics, instruments, turbochargers etc, but you'll need to read a book on helicopter systems to get your percentages up.

The other advantage of getting a school involved is that they may already have an account with AFT and marking credits so you can practice a few exams with them, usually for a very small fee. The exams are usefull, but the actual exams were a bit more tricky.

Best of luck with 'em.

[Check Revs]

wizard, moosp.

Thank you for the replies.

Adelaide has a couple of fixed wing flying schools who said they can help but sadly they have no info on helo's. Looks as if I have to go the expensive way if nobody else can help out.

Check Revs:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

If you end up spending money, I can highly recomend the AFT correspondance and study material.

[hughey]

Dan

I am also from the UK and have just completed my flight training at Jandakot Helicopters, Perth, Western Australia.

If you wish to do your training in Australia or any other country for that matter and then plan to work in the UK there are a few things you must consider.

In Australia 105hrs are the minimum requirement for an Australian commercial license. Although only a few manage 105hrs most 120 - 130hrs.

To convert your license to a JAA license you have 2 routes.

1. Return to the UK with 155hrs and do a 30hr flying module and re-do theory, ATPL is the prefered route in UK.

2. Return to the UK with 185hrs including 50hrsPIC 10hrs basic instrument and 5hrs night, (this may not be exact) xcntry navigation hours will be no problem as all navs in AUS especially WA are X country. You will still have to re-sit theory and do a skills test.

Budget for 185hrs.

If you need any other advice about training in Australia send me a private message.

Australian VB's over rated the other beers are good though.

[Nomads]

Hi Folks,

Anyone out there that can enlighten me in regard what freelance rates in Australia are like for a CPL(H) (turbine) experienced pilot?

Thanking you in advance.:ok:

Nomad

[Nigel Osborn]

About AU$250 upwards.:O

[birdman]

Nomad,

Around Melbourne, freelance is about $350pd +GST.

In SE QLD, depending on the operator, about $250-350pd +GST.

As the fire season has been slow thus far, there are LOTS of freelance guys around...good luck!

Birdman.

[Nomads]

Nigel/Birdman

Thanks guys for the info, just what I needed to find out.

Cheers

Nomad

[Heliport]

Merged.

[the wizard of auz]

I can highly recomend Jandakot Helicopters for flight training. no bull****, what you see is what you get, trained many overseas pilots and generally a great bunch of blokes. You won't be promised a job, but after your all trained up and relaesed onto the unsuspecting world, Doaky will talk to whoever he knows to help you out. (if you fly like ****, he will tell you, and you won't get a licence until you can do it properly, so you always know where you stand.)
they have a website. www.jhelicopters.com.au

I draw your attention to a particular page on the site. Employment opportunities (http://www.jhelicopters.com.au/Employment%20Opportunities.htm)

[Ascend Charlie]

Be careful of the gloss and the glitz - and the tinted hair, capped teeth and fake suntans of the front man.

Make sure that any TIF you take has these essential elements:
1. You must fly with an instructor. A certain school in Sydney, already mentioned, has sent prospective students up with just a commercial pilot on the other stick. Not licensed or qualified to give instruction, and the wannabe cannot legally log the time.

2. You must get a full preflight briefing to explain what you are going to see, how to work the controls, what to look for.

3. The flight involves actually learning something.

4. You get a debrief on the flight.

The prebrief and debrief are just as important as the flying, but That School is famous for just slipping the next student into a warm seat with the engine still running from the previous flight. One student I heard of went for a check ride at another place, sat in the seat, and when the instructor said "Well, let's go" the student looked at the instructor and asked him if he was going to start the engine first for him, as he had never got into a cold machine before.

One thing that you will never be told by That School is the troubles they have been in with CASA - they cheated on flying hours and maintenance by pulling circuit breakers on Hobbs meters, and the private owners of cross-hired machines were not paid for the time flown. Finally trapped by one owner who saw his bird flying one day, checked Their paperwork, and saw that no flight time was recorded for that day. He installed a secret meter, found the truth, and reported them to CASA. The Chief Pilot took a walk (somewhat unfairly, the Boss was equally to blame) and That School kept going.

Next stumble was the troubled Examfax system. They were caught out helping students, another CP takes a walk (this CP mysteriously lost his log book 3 times when inspections were due.) But the Boss stayed.

There is no doubt that they are successful at recruiting and processing students, the biggest around, sell a pile of machines, but make sure you get value for what you pay.

Three pilots spring to mind - the first came from There, admitting that he knew nothing, and paid for more lessons to get up to speed. The second came as a student, with trip reports glowing with praise, and after 15 hours he was ready for solo. He was tragic, could barely hover. He couldn't pass ground school. He lodged a large sum of money with us, but we gave it back to him and suggested he try another career. He went back to That Place, had an 85% theory pass within 3 weeks, and a CPL shortly thereafter. Saw him after that putting full fuel and four golfers and four sets of clubs in a 206 and staggering off the airfield for a landing 3000' up the hills.

The third held an instructors rating, but when I asked him if he wanted to do some instructing work he said "But my rating is only a (company deleted) rating - we didn't fly half the trips, and when I got to the nominated number of hours, He stopped my course and signed me up. I don't really know how to instruct."

Sorry, but That School doesn't impress.:yuk:

[Spaced]

Stunty, I recently changed schools at Bankstown.
I wont metion the previous school but Im now trainging at Helicopter Traning and Transport (HTT).
I was a big descision for me but I have been very happy after making the change. The instructors are all extemely professional, the ships are all new, and the price is near the cheapest around.
One of the things that impressed me the most is the lack of BS. They are up fornt, and honest.
Even if youre not flying that day its no prob to swing by to get some help with the theory.
They are a new school and dont have a website yet, but you can email them at, [email protected] . Im sure he'll get back to you.
Good luck

[HeliSean]

Helicopter Transport and Training are the newest training school at Bankstown Airport.

For anyone considering learning to fly or for people who already have a PPL or CPL they are well worth calling or dropping in to see.

They have a New R44 Raven 2 avalable for private hire as well as new R22's.

Very Professional and willing to spend as much time as needed with the customer.


Best of luck choosing a school.

Welcome to the forum, HeliSean.
You've given this new school a plug, but you don't say how you know it's good? :confused:

Heliport

[the wizard of auz]

Ascend charlie, just so I'm clear on this, all the above post was in relation to the Sydney school, right?

[belly tank]

ive heard storys of a CFI doing pre flight breifings on his car bonnet!!!! in a paddock next to the helicopter.

comes from a reliable source too.

[Ascend Charlie]

Wizard of Aus:

Yes, i was referring to the Breaker Brothers of Bankstown. No reference to schools anywhere else.

[the wizard of auz]

Oh righto, cheers. :ok:

[Bungraman]

:mad: Don't even contemplate Blue Tongue Helicopter School...... I trained there, No 1 training but no "after sales service"....no help what so all getting a job!!! They will gladly take your money :mad:

[Granny]

Why is it that people think just because you spend a fortune with a flying school it is thier reponsibilty to help you find a job, We are all big boys , why dont people just stand on there own feet and stop thinking the world owes them a living because they hold a CPL.
Perhaps some of these guys that moan they cant find a flying job arent worth employing, after all if they are not motivated enough to get off thier arse and find a job themselves instead of relying on somebody else to do it are they really going to manage to operate an aircraft commercially in a dog eat dog enviroment?
A hungry dog hunts better!

[belly tank]

"No 1 training but no "after sales service"....no help what so all getting a job!!! They will gladly take your money"

Universitys also take your money! you get a degree and do they give everyone a job after they complete thier courses in accounting or whatever.? dont think so.

Training schools are under no obligation whatsoever to help you look for work or even give you work, if they are well think yourself one of the luck ones.

While im bitching!!....does anyone know any other industry where you spend 40k to get a licence and then to get hours or Experience some companies pay the rookie pilot a big fat 0 , and a thanks mate but you need the experience line!! it bugs me because i went through it.

im sure some of you out there are trades people, when you first started your apprenticeship did they pay you wages? i think most people would say yes.

Ok ive finnished whinging!!

[the coyote]

I agree with Granny.

It is impossible for any training school to guarantee a student a job, without knowing them. However, It is logical PR for a training school (that can offer employment to low hour pilots that have trained with them only) to advertise that in order to encourage students to sign with them. The basis of any advertising is to dangle the carrot as hard as you can isn't it?

In selecting a school I would concentrate on their reputation, how long they have been established, how busy they are (a busy restaurant is usually a good one), and the experience and personality of their instructors. You must meet them first and sus them out, their ego, patience, etc. In terms of their experience, don't just look at their total time and background, but also their instructional time and whether they are grade 1 or grade 2 instructors. And if they can also offer employment afterwards, then look at that as a bbq bonus.

You will carry your initial training throughout your career as a pilot to some degree. Training is planting a seed, and you want to grow a good tomato plant from that and not a dodgy one eh? I have done BFR's for experienced pilots who have done things in strange ways "coz that's how I was taught how to do it", and never really questioned or understood the method.

In short, I reckon you should pick a school for it's quality of training and staff, not just whether they MAY me able to give you a job afterwards.

If your a capable, keen and committed low hour pilot who isn't a complete gonzo, you'll get work, it's just a question of time and maybe a bit of luck. Your first job relies almost totally on your attitude anyway I reckon, and there's a whole lot of operators out there that aren't also training schools.

[DIVINE WIND]

Coyote,
Thanks for the seed you planted in my head a few years ago, I am now bald, must have been a dodgey one eh?
Just try to get to my wedding in July so I can repay you.
Later GD:cool:

[the coyote]

Will do GD! But that dodgy seed got you a Green card and a BABE for a wife eh!!!!:E

[rotorbloke]

Im looking at working in Australia.

I have UK ATPL(H)+IR, instructor ratings with 5,500+ hours, military background, in late 40s, with a wide range of experiance.

Could someone please advise me of what sort of opportunties might be available to me, would my age go against me and what do I need to do to convert my UK license to an Aus one.

Many thanks.

The Bloke

[Bronx]

This thread might be useful. There are posts about jobs and immigration as well as training info. Good luck.

Australia (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116312)

[FerociousFish]

Hay guys, need some advice if you've got the time. I'm in the very early stages of getting my CPL (H) at PHS in Melbourne. I've spent the last week going over all the doom and gloom about the job market in thee forums, but decide to stick it out anyway and bust my gut and see what happpens. Ideally I am hoping to do a stint at PHS's Ayers Rock operation to build my hours. I know some of you think that this is a bit of a 'carrot dangler' but has anyone been out there who actually earnt some decent hours, and roughly how long did it take? Were you spending more time digging holes and filling them in again, or actually flying?

On a different note. My very supportive wife (hard to find!) and I want to use piloting as a basis to travel overseas. Apart from turbine rating to start, anything else you would recommend to get at the beginning or just obtain specific ratings for specific jobs? (does that make sense):confused:

[that chinese fella]

FF, check you PM's

[pohm1]

FF,

The work at Ayers Rock is not about digging holes and then filling them. It is about getting experience by building hours and assisting in the running of a tourist operation. The flying is almost all scenic work at first, then other charters as you become more experienced.

You will average around 25-30 hours per month. You start in a jet ranger, then when you've done a few months you go into the long ranger and H500.

The accomodation is in the form of 2 or 3 bedroomed units which you share with other pilots, rent free. You usually work 5.5 days a week. Most pilots start looking for other work after 18 months to 2 years. You are unlikely to have 1000hrs by that stage but the last few guys who have left with 600-800 hours haven't had a problem getting other work because nearly all their time is turbine.

Not everyone who does their licence at PHS will get a job, it would be foolish to believe that's the case. No promises are made with regard to jobs, when a slot is available interviews for those interested are held and the right person gets the job.

I have also heard that 2 other Vic based operators approach PHS when they need low hour pilots.

Speak to the instructors, MS, SW and PT have all done a stint in the NT or PM me if you wish.

Even if it doesn't work out, the training at PHS always seems well regarded in the industry, and that can only help if you are looking for work elsewhere.

If I sound biased, its because I am!

:ok:

[the coyote]

FF

I trained with PHS and worked for them for four years. Two years at the rock and two years in Melbourne as an instructor. I walked away after four years with them with around 2500 hours, a grade 1 instructor rating, numerous endorsements, and experience in tourism, bush work, pilot training, firefighting, film work and general charter. I worked hard for them, and they expect that, but in hind sight they gave me some pretty good opportunities for a low time pilot and an average of 600 hours per year. Can't argue with that.

With tourism work its about 20% flying and 80% all the other stuff that gets bums on seats and keeps the operation going. You want to fly more, you talk more people into flying, simple. Operators in tourism look for the kind of personality that is good for that, and that gives the punters a good time and good service, and someone who is willing to work hard without moaning about it.

If you want to work overseas, long range plan I reckon would be to aim for the twins, and a good start is turbine hours with the IREX and ATPL subjects under your belt.

Good luck!

[that chinese fella]

The reference to digging holes probably relates to working bees at Senior Management place of residence. Whatever it takes I guess.

As POHM says the training (as with most Oz schools) is very good.

Good luck.

[FerociousFish]

Everyone, thanks heaps for the feedback. It was the little bit of good news I needed to cement my decision. Great to hear all the good things about PHS too! See you guys in the air sometime!:ok:

[empty pockets]

its been a while since i posted, so bear with me as a i ramble on. i know that there's a [most excellent] sticky collated by heliport on training, but i can't find what i'm looking for.

i am 23 and, like most young guys on here, have always wanted to be a helo pilot. unlike them, i have also always wanted to live abroad, so am not bothered about converting an overseas licence back to a UK one. for cost reasons, the most obvious places for me to train/live/ then hopefully work are the US, Oz, or NZ. When I do emigrate I will be taking the missus with me and so the US is out due to her being a pharmacist and uncle sam would require her to redo her 4yr degree from scratch. That leaves Oz and NZ. I have no idea what the cost of living, job prospects, etc. are in either of these countries, and would appreciate a little objective advice from locals and expats.

Looking on the various training websites, it looks like i can get a CPL ticket in either country for around £20k [inc. contingencies], then i plan to get CFI/CFII qualified to build hours [any ideas on costs?] before moving on the the ATPLH. Basically, i'd be in the same boat as all the local low time guys.

Okay question time....

1] what are the realistic opportunities for obtaining a full time flying job in both countries. Most of the larger training outfits advertise that they give priority to their trainees for low hour jobs, but is this just PR speak or is there a steady demand as their CFI's leave for better jobs? What are the other hour building jobs in the region? [i would love to gain some experience mustering, but have heard they mainly train local guys who have ties to the area and won't jump ship at the first opportunity].

2] should i obtain a full time CFI position, would the salary be enough to maintain a decent standard of living, bearing in mind I hope to pay for all training costs with my savings [i.e. no loan repayments] and the missus will be working in hospital pharmacy. I'm not asking for a ferrari and sydney penthouse, just a good sized apartment and a reasonably new car. i've read starting salary figures of around AUD25,000, which equates to around £10,000. I'm not clued up about real estate prices, tax, cost of living etc. over there but this figure would get me nowhere in the UK.

3] which region/city would serve best as a base for finding flying work with low hours. I like the sound of the sunshine coast as there are lots of operators [and beaches!] but would need an area with a healthy engineering/industrial sector to work in if the flying work doesn't start as soon as i hope [i'm currently working as a manufacturing manager]. I know that the NZ and Oz licenses will allow me to fly in either country, but would prefer some stability regarding where i live early on.

4] my long term aspiration is obviously to fly large turbines, either for a local operator flying from a fixed base or working tours within south east asia. will the Oz/NZ licence allow this or would i need to convert for each country i want to fly in?

5] if you were me, would you stay and work in the UK for longer, knowing that any additional cash i save will transfer favourably to dollars, or move as soon as i have the money to train? i'm itching to get started as soon as possible, and it will largely come down to if i can find work quick enough following training. it would be nice to have that financial cushion, but am hungry to get airborne.

i know some of my questions aren't really aviation related, but i would appreciate your views [particularly those of someone who has been there and done it]. i'm not in a priveledged position where i can make this kind of investment and shrug it off it it doesn't work out, so need to dip my toe in the water before jumping in. i am prepared to work hard to get where i want to be though, and hope that this counts for something.

cheers for reading,
Phil. :ok:

[Steve76]

MR S is telling the truth.

Take his advice and apply it to NZ as well, but mulitply to the power of 2.
Twice as hard, twice as depressing.

Why do you think there are so many Aussies and Kiwis working anywhere but at home? We all want the beaches and mountains but the work is not there.

Your other major issue is immigration. Your missus might be alright but you may not get a work visa issued on the basis of her job. It happened to my wife here in Canada. Two years and no working allowed. There are so many new pilots in both countries that you will be starting way behind from the beginning.

As "S" said; the starter jobs in both places are miles away from civilisation and you really need to reflect on whether she wants to be left alone in a foriegn country.

....excuse the healthy dose of reality :hmm:

[FerociousFish]

Hi! At the moment I am just starting my training at PHS in Melbourne, who have there theory course which is internet-based. Has anyone had any experience in this. Have looked at the fist subject and am baffled already. Am I better off doing a theory course full-time? If so, has anyone got any recommendations? Preferably something local, ie, Melbourne or Victoria. Or am I just stressing for nothing, and the theory's the easy bit!!??:confused:

um...by the way, that should read 'first subject'....I haven't got to the part about fists yet....

[Bomber ARIS]

Mr Selfish.

I don't wish to come across as some kind of spelling-crazed Nazi, but dude, in the last post alone you treated us to:

unfortunatly, impeading, ambiguos, irrelivent, scruteny, applicents, apaling, aggresive, unco-operative, theroy,

and everyone's favourite proffesional

If fellow Rotorheads are to give up time reading your posts, it may be respectful to them to plough those posts through some sort of spell-checker.

Regards

[belly tank]

Thank heavens for that.....the heat has been taken off me...thanks selfish!!!

Bomber....mr selfish is probably a bit like me...we are no oxford scholars, but we know our jobs inside out and to be quite honest i still could read the post, it wasnt until you highlighted the mistakes i picked up on it....hows my spelling going?

maybe PPRUNE can get a spell checker...helps on those nights when you have a few...hey mr selfish!!! ( grin)

cheers

[Bomber ARIS]

belly tank,

when someone starts wielding words like proffesional in an accusatory way about some company's internet based course, the effect is somewhat diminished by incorrect spelling .(Even if they are a bunch of cnuts :eek: !!!!!!!!!)

There are also a number of us who do not have English as our first language. To save endless hours searching fruitlessly for newly-invented words from Dunnunda in our English-Swahili dictionaries, maybe it is beholden upon Englanders and the Colonials to play the game.

And by the way, seeing as you asked, your spelling "is going fine", although I notice from your profile that you call yourself a cheif pilot!!:\

Au revoir

[that chinese fella]

Fish,

As alluded to in an earlier post, the theory provider on the sunshine coast provides a very good easy to understand set of notes that most people with no previous knowledge can use. Plenty of on-going practise exams and a 1800 help line all seem to make it a worthwhile consideration.

Good luck

[Bomber ARIS]

Selfish:cool:, old buddy

I believe this to be the finest helicopter forum in the world, due in no small part to the diversity of its contributors. I´d hate to think anyone would hold back from posting through fear of incorrect spelling.

I am sure that FerociousFish appreciated feedback to his post, but as far as flying exams go, one could do a lot worse than the CASA CPLs. Having personally taken exams all over the world (CAA ATPL, FAA ATP, CASA ATPL/IREX, Transport Canada ATPL) I can tell you that there is much worse out there.

Now if you were talking about the IREX then I'd have to agree. With that son of a bitch, you guys have a real world beater!

By the way, if it's Microsoft Word that y'all are using then you have the option of 13 versions of the English language to chose from, including Australian English!!

I have no wish to be yet another pompous European (I believe Rotorheads has its quota) and so in the spirit of reconciliation, I give you a poem for you to share with those close to you on Valentine's Day

Roses are red,
Violets are green,
Open your legs,
And I'll fill you with cream.

Roses are straight,
Violets are twisted,
Bend over luv,
You're about to get fisted:eek:

Amen

[Bomber ARIS]

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rarely ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect in it's weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

:8

[belly tank]

Bomber,

Yes my OFFICIAL title is cheif pilot however im not the type to go weilding it around, we all have ajob to do during the day and i think most of us like reading pprune for the entertainment value as much as the informative discussions.

When i passed my C.P interview my operations inspector picked me up on a spelling mistake! none the less it still didnt stop me from getting a near perfect result. big deal you may say!

anyway...can we stop the bickering at each other we are all supposed to be colleagues in the same industry that we love, lets face it its not for the money is it , its the pure love of flying helicopters!!!

goodnight, im on duty tommorow :)

[Bomber ARIS]

belly tank

I have no gripes with you being Chief Pilot. My only reason for referring to your title was to gently point out that the spelling was slightly off. (You had asked me how the spelling was going)

I´m damn sure that if I´d worked hard enough and long enough to become Chief Pilot then I´d make sure I could spell it!!

We are all ambassadors for one another in this industry; how one helicopter pilot behaves determines how the rest are percieved. As helicopter pilots we are often viewed as a rag-tag bunch of second-class, cowboy aviators, but it's up to every man jack of us to raise our game and be professional about it.

Word

[Steve76]

I hate the IREX.
First crack: 79% (argh)
Second: 85%

Joined the elite ranks of the 3-5% who were passing at that time.

Worst exam on the small planet I have visited.

Considering our english past down there, I would wager the poms have a bunch of nasty ones themselves....

[sycamore]

Bomber,
PERCEIVED, DEAR BOY, I b4e , except after c...............!:ok:

[Bomber ARIS]

........errrrrrr :O

[Chamonix]

Wanka.....no wait , as per the Oxford Dicctionary that would be '******'. Thanks for the inspiration Bomber

[number9]

(apologies for the cross-post, but the D&G section seems to have mostly fixed-wingers).

So I'm thinking of getting my rotary-wing CPL, and am looking for some constructive feedback as to how the employment prospects would be.

Have worked my ass off to save the cash required (though would still pay as I went), so I have some kind of understanding as to the work ethic I'm going to need to be successful. And likewise I understand that many first jobs are mustering, but in reality how many mustering jobs are even out there? Will I spend two years searching for my first job, or with guts & determination is it possible to make a go of it?

I realise that many get into rotary & fixed CPLs with a false expectation as to how easy and how profitable it will be to find a job, so obviously I'd like to avoid that at all costs. I've got the money to get some ratings & conversions, but I'd appreciate any & all constructive feedback. Ta!

[overpitched]

Number9

I think this has been answered a few times already but anyway

There are plenty of mustering jobs out there if you have extensive cattle experience and you can talk like a ringer. If not forget mustering, if you don't know cattle they won't give you a start... usually.

There are some tourism jobs around in the top end at Catherine or Kununurra but you may have to spend a couple of years up there before you get a start.

I think that if you got your cpl plus a rating on B47 & r44 sell everything, go to the top end, and live there until you get a start you will probably be successful.

You could also try the rock (if you do your licence with PHS) or the great ocean road.

If you plan on getting your licence and then sitting in one of the cities and sending out resumes then spend your money on something else.

You need to commit to about 5-7 years in the bush to get a start and get your first 1500 hours. And hey it's a good life. If you're not prepared to spend that amount of time in the middle of nowhere choose a different career.

[number9]

I think this has been answered a few times already but anyway

Yeah, when I posted the search function wasn't working - however I searched this morning my time and came up with a few good threads, even the 17-page one!

There are plenty of mustering jobs out there if you have extensive cattle experience and you can talk like a ringer. If not forget mustering, if you don't know cattle they won't give you a start... usually.

Hrm, I have to say that I didn't expect to have to know cattle. :uhoh: Though living in Africa, I do see a lot of them! And can talk like a ringer if I really have to ;)

There are some tourism jobs around in the top end at Catherine or Kununurra but you may have to spend a couple of years up there before you get a start.

Spending 1 or 2 years up there, I would think, is fair.. however I'd really stop and think if you had have said "3-4" or "4-5". Like anyone, I guess, I wouldn't care if it's time spent mustering or hauling loads of manure, just a job getting hours would be enough.

I think that if you got your cpl plus a rating on B47 & r44 sell everything, go to the top end, and live there until you get a start you will probably be successful.

What about ATPL(H) and IREX? There seems to be two opinions on this, some people think that having both even if you've got less than 200 hours is a good thing (shows initiative, capacity to keep learning, etc); whilst the other opinion is that it's a waste of time until you need it and some even go so far as to say it can "mask" inexperience.

I could certainly afford to get my B47 and R44, though obviously paying for numerous hours is a different issue. I could even get a B206 endorsement, though I don't think there are any to fly!

You could also try the rock (if you do your licence with PHS) or the great ocean road.

Well, I'm a sandgroper by birth, so was thinking of Jandakot Helicopters. But, if it helps enough, I think I'd be prepared to uproot and learn at PHS. I'd want to be confident in that it would make a difference, though...

If you plan on getting your licence and then sitting in one of the cities and sending out resumes then spend your money on something else.

You need to commit to about 5-7 years in the bush to get a start and get your first 1500 hours. And hey it's a good life. If you're not prepared to spend that amount of time in the middle of nowhere choose a different career.

No thanks! Sitting in an office sending out a resumé doesn't seem to help anyone, so I definitely won't sit on that avenue. 7 years is getting toward the limit of how long I'd want to commit to, but if that's what it has to be then I guess that's it. I'm glad for the honest advice!

Mr Selfish: Have done, thanks! I'll also try reading up about the USA schools that offer J1 visas (and thus the 12-24 month tuition there), could be an avenue also.

[deeper]

there is nothing wrong with jandakot at all. good school.

5/7 years is a joke.

plenty of pilots with no experience get jobs mustering, you just have to try harder.

it's katherine with a k, they must have never been there.

there are few 47's left in the top end so forget that endorsement.

get your atpl and irex no matter what. promise.

pm me for advice.

[number9]

deeper: Thanks for that, I'll send you a PM now.

[trackdirect]

Do get your 47 endorsement, there are still plenty around in tourism.... Hamilton island have 3
44 is also a good idea
Try Hamilton island and Cairns once you have your licence it may take a while driving a bus picking up passengers or working in the hangar but it is well worth the effort in the end.
I know many who have tried the mustering way in the last few years and it is a pretty tough one if you have no cattle knowledge but very valuable experience if you end up doing it...
One city slicker is doing his second year as a ringer hoping to go flying next year.

Good luck
The jobs are out there for those who are willing to work hard for them

[overpitched]

Deeper .. maybe you had a good run but I think 5-7 years in the bush, from arrival looking for a job to leaving with 1500 or so houirs including 500 turbine is very realistic. To say less would just give the guy false hope. He may get out in less but probably he won't

And I think they are still using kwackas at Katherine gorge and at the bungles so for the sake of 3-5 hours why not turn up with the endorsement. Heliwork hires 2 or 3 low hour pilots a year and last year they all started on kwakas so check your info. I know they are selling them off but last I heard they still had a couple.

And the days of low hour pilots with no cattle experience getting mustering jobs are gone, long gone. Unless you count flying a busted arse station owned 22 logging 1 in 10 hours and for mine thats not a start its the road to nowhere.

Yep I've seen guys get in and out of the top end in 3 years and I've seen guys get mustering jobs with little cattle experience but these guys are the exception not the norm so why b.s. poor old number9. He did say he didn't want to get false expectations after all.

Oh and good for you deeper you can spell Katherine... Goose.

[number9]

trackdirect: Yeah, I was certainly going to try and get an R44 endorsement, I didn't realise the B47s were still used at all but if they are then I'll try for that, too. No use limiting my options is there? And as you say, I don't mind doing the grunt go-nowhere work if there's light at the end of the tunnel (even if it's a few years down the track). I'm only 22 after all..

overpitched: To be honest, 5-7 years and leaving with 1500hrs with 500 on turbines doesn't sound unappealing. I mean it'd be nice if it's quicker, but if that's the way it is then that's the way it is! In terms of endorsements, is there really much of a difference between having 0 hours on a Kwakka (and thus no endorsement) and 10 hours (and thus one)? My point is, would it really make that much of a difference, as obviously either 0 or 10 hours is still no experience at all? I'd still certainly get the endorsement, though, if it's one more thing that could help me.

Say, there's a question (well, two). First, who does endorsements in Oz for the Kwakkas? And secondly, does CASA mandate a certain about of time in a certain helo before you can get an endorsement in something else? I mean, I can't see CASA saying "Okay, for your CPL(H) you need to log 20 hours in specificially an R22 before you can get an endorsement in an R44". I would imagine not, but who knows!

In terms of cattle experience, well... I know my way around `em but certainly nothing compared to someone who's worked on a farm all their life. But I know my way around a dirt-bike! ;)

Mr Selfish: Yeah? Where do I sign? Can I just rock up with a cheque and leave with a CPL & captains job? :cool: