Infants In Business Class [Archive]

Bealzebub

30th Mar 2004, 17:06

We have many children, and have taken them in everything from Concorde to charter flights. No matter what class of travel they have all been taught from a very early age of the privilidge they enjoy and the behaviour that is demanded from them. I have always been proud of their behaviour on aeroplanes ( not something that is always the case in other circumstances), and that has been endorsed by some very complimentary comments from pursers and other crewmembers.

I can understand that other people do not expect to have to suffer discomfort from other peoples children and the price of premium class tickets acts as something of a natural defence in this regard. That is no guarantee of course, nor should it be assumed that unruly children are any more welcome in economy. As others have said it is public transport and you have to put up with the consequences of that reality from time to time.

Infants do cry, but usually for a reason. Parents do not enjoy the fact any more than other people and will nearly always seek to rectify the matter. Babies have a limited ability to communicate and nature has given them a very good method of establishing an imperitive and difficult to ignore signal. It is difficult to cry when they feeding, drinking and sleeping and they do do a lot of this.

The only way of guaranteeing who will surround you on a flight is to charter a private jet.

speedbird_heavy

30th Mar 2004, 17:11

Why should you dictate who sits in what class of cabin??? If I'm willing to pay the same amount of money, then I have every right to take my son with me. I had no problem on the BA002. Infact passengers on this flight were happy about it and showed affection for my son. You might travel J or F class every other day and take it for granted. People like myself save hard to experience how the other half live and Im not going to let someone in a suit tell me what I can and cant do.

EDITED TO REMOVE OFFENSIVE PROSEPPRuNe Radar

WHBM

30th Mar 2004, 17:50

people do not expect to have to suffer discomfort from other peoples children and the price of premium class tickets acts as something of a natural defence in this regard
My only bad experience of this, which I have described before, was a "Third World" Ambassador's wife and their two children (not babies) in C class on EI Dublin - London, who treated the front cabin as a personal playpen, ran around screaming, overturned other pax's drinks, scolded the FAs who tried to control things, stole items from the cart, and generally were the Flight from Hell. Skipper should have put the seat belt sign on, but as they ignored it when it was put on for the London approach, would have made no difference.

Good to see our foreign aid to that poverty-stricken country being used in this way on these tickets.

GlueBall

30th Mar 2004, 18:15

Pax who travel with infants and small children should be seated in the last row of the rear (Economy Class) cabin on all flights at all airlines; it should become a World standard as a courtesy to the obvious majority of adult passengers. :ooh:

BEagle

30th Mar 2004, 19:07

Children should be seen, not heard.

Simple, really. But too many 'new age' doting parents seem to have forgotten this simple concept. Neither do they seem to understand that the apple of their eyes is not necessarily that of other peoples'....

Animalclub

31st Mar 2004, 02:22

I'm one of those :mad: s that insist on enjoying my flights when I pay the retail fare... and I keep children away from me any way that I can.

I even complain when Y passengers come through to J class to use the toilets!!

speedbird_heavy

31st Mar 2004, 08:24

Correct me if i'm wrong, but a debate involves views from different points of view does it not. You have aired yours and I mine. You dont like my view and I dont like yours.

Untill someone can tell me what gives them the right to dictate whe sits where then I will stand by my comments.

The only way of guaranteeing who will surround you on a flight is to charter a private jet.

As you lot are mega rich and can afford to fly busuness class every time I suggest you try what has been quoted above. That way I can enjoy a flight with out you lot thinking you own the aircraft.

Octopussy2

31st Mar 2004, 08:32

As this thread becomes increasingly polarised (pax who can't bear the possibility of the proximity of children vs parents who can't bear to concede that the presence of children may sometimes be irritating), it strikes me that what we're missing is a bit of tolerance.

Has modern life become so stressful that, unless we can control our environment exactly/be surrounded by only by people who are exactly like us (fellow harrassed parents/stressed-out business travellers) - we feel deeply uncomfortable?

What about others who makes us uncomfortable or get in our way? The elderly or disabled passenger limping slowly down the aisle, while we're stuck behing them desperate for the loo/another drink? Do we segregate them as well?

I am as annoyed by the next person by the parent who lets their children run riot and make life unpleasant for those around them. But what about responsible parents, with well-behaved kids, trying desperately to shut the baby up?

How much would the atmosphere change in the cabin if, instead of being met with a scowl, harassed parent receives a sympathetic smile from stressed-out business person? And if harrassed business person receives a rueful smile and a muttered "I'm so sorry about this" in return?

It's a hackneyed fact that we were all children once, but also that we all different, with different needs. We can't/shouldn't (IMHO) isolate ourselves from the rest of the human race. How about a bit of empathy/understanding instead?

PPRuNe Radar

31st Mar 2004, 08:57

speedbird_heavy

You fail by personally attacking the posters and not solely their arguments or points of views. The latter is allowed and is called debate. The former is against the rules which you signed up to when joining PPRuNe. Hence your turn of phrase has been removed from your post.

Any more of that type of posting and I'll see that you are offloaded.

All other replies relating to your attack (i.e. those taking your bait and biting) have also been removed as they are not relevant to the issue being discussed.

:*

BEagle

31st Mar 2004, 10:36

Perhaps a general statement from an airline indicating that passengers travelling in Business Class expect sufficient standard of comfort and quiet within which to work or to rest might suffice? Particularly with an addendum noting that parents flying with their children are asked to ensure that the behaviour of their children is commensurate with the spirit of this expectation?

It's not the teething small squealer which is the biggest pain (try a miniature Drambuie- oops, I never said that!), it's uncontrolled little beggars making a nuisance of themselves whilst their parents do nothing to stop them who are the biggest irritant!

speedbird_heavy

31st Mar 2004, 10:41

PPRuNe Radar

All other replies relating to your attack (i.e. those taking your bait and biting) have also been removed as they are not relevant to the issue being discussed.

I dont believe that I should be singled out here. I will however put my hand up and admit I was out of order. Question is, well anyone else?

Ok back to the"debate":

Can one of you "business men" give me a valid reason why I should not be allowed to travel with my son in any class on any aircraft with any airline if I am paying the same price for a ticket as you.

BEagle

31st Mar 2004, 11:31

Provided you ensure that his behaviour is such that it won't cause unreasonble disturbance to other passengers, go right ahead.

If you can't manage to ensure that, please use another form of transport.

And that applies whether you're flying first class or on the cheapest low-cost carrier......

hgrubb

31st Mar 2004, 11:47

It's not so much the noise of children that can be irritating after all flights are very noisy, engines droning props turning, trolly's clanking, pax and crew conversations and you can always stick you headphones on . No, personally i think the worst thing about having children onboard sometimes is the smell ie when parents don't make a quick effort to change tot or leave the nappy bags hanging around yuck!

hailstone

31st Mar 2004, 11:57

am travelling short- and long-haul in c-class, both alone on business and privately with family (including now 7 and 5 year old daughters) - not on miles or ID tickets

even when our kids were not the quietest for short periods of time, fellow travellers did show hindsight, conceding that they are children.

all in all we have been faring well - bar that gentleman who had to continue from SIN to MEL with a pair of soiled slacks (air-sickness) after he gracefully assisted me when our little one was ill - but even he took it with style and accepted by spare pair of jeans (two sizes too big, but the belt did it)

when travelling alone in C-class, it has usually not been the behaviour (or lack thereof) of small children, but more often the behaviour of fellow adult passengers in various states of intoxication or making uncalled-for and offensive comments to cabin-crew (mainly female...) in regards to appearance, indecent proposals, a non-available choice of meal, 'restrictions' on quantities of liquor served, delays, bumpy flights, mal-functioning in-flight entertainment systems - you name it.

edited for syntax....

eal401

31st Mar 2004, 12:05

Can one of you "business men" give me a valid reason why I should not be allowed to travel with my son in any class on any aircraft with any airline if I am paying the same price for a ticket as you.

No reason at all, provided you acknowledge the fact that you and your son are not the only people on the aircraft.

Possibly unlikely I feel.

Pom Pax

31st Mar 2004, 18:44

None that I know of, but I am sure there would be a market for this... at the very least, on routes which are flown multiple times per day then it should be possible to designate some of the flights as "min age 12" or something.
Why not have a complete service child free? Charge a 10% premium for that flight and no super discounts or perhaps no discounts at all. With suitable publicity it would not take long to see if the numbers justified it.

ShamRoc

1st Apr 2004, 10:06

I agree with Beagle that there should be an expectation of peace and quiet when travelling but, on the other hand, as has been said before, small children, particularly babies, only have one way of communicating. And that is noisy!Changes in pressure can affect their ears, just as it does to adults, and that discomfort can trigger distress. So, circumstances can be outside parents control.
What will be more distressing is the day passengers are allowed to use mobile phones on aircraft! That will be more noisy and intrusive than any distressed minor!

Avman

2nd Apr 2004, 17:49

Business, Economy and Kiddies class, that's what we need ;) ! Yes, we were all children once. I often travelled as a small child. Thanks to a good upbringing I was always well behaved. My children likewise. I have no objections to children in Business or First Class as long as they behave accordingly. "Babies cry" someone said. Well, yes they do, but in all honesty if I had to endure a crying baby for hours having paid a premium price (out of my own pocket) for a seat which promised me comfort, peace and quiet, I might get a little irritable too. Fortunately my experience is that babies tend to cry pre take-off and on the descent and are fast asleep the rest of the time.

TightSlot

2nd Apr 2004, 18:56

I'm curious as to whether this is a cultural issue - I wonder whether the same issue arises with Iberia or Alitalia, or indeed other countries where the perception of children is different? In my experience (mostly Spain) adults seem to avoid getting quite as stressed about younger humans as they do in the UK. A higher tolerance level seems to be the norm, and sometimes pleasure is actually taken from the company of children. Could it be that we have something to learn? - Discuss...

christep

2nd Apr 2004, 23:58

Like Avman I have no problem with kids on planes per se. If they are well behaved then no problem, and no big deal with babies crying for a few minutes during ascent or descent. But the problem I had on the above mentioned LHR-EWR flight was that the baby was crying loudly for at least the first 4 hours out of a 7 hour flight.

BahrainLad

3rd Apr 2004, 08:52

Screamed all the way from Nairobi to Mombasa in BA J once (I was about 18 months).

The Steward was no help either; all he could come up with were liquer chocolates......

seat 0A

3rd Apr 2004, 12:57

What a ridiculous thought; deny children access to business class.
I propose to deny people on board who have smelling breath, who are ugly, who are not dressed nicely, or who otherwise might bother you.
Take mr heavy`s advice and rent your own plane, so you won`t bother anyone else:*

willoman

3rd Apr 2004, 16:20

I posed the original question regarding infants - not children. I think infants are classed as less than 2 years old and usually travel free when accompanied by a guardian. Is it not, therefore, rather ironic that a pax ( the infant ) who is paying the least fare ( £0 )on the aircraft is, if being uncontrollably noisy, causing the greatest nuisance to those who are paying amongst the highest fares.
If airlines insist on permitting infants in 'business' or first class then perhaps it is time to rename the various compartments of the aircraft to reflect the fact that they may not be suitable for either business or rest and thus may not provide the luxury they advertise.

eko4me

3rd Apr 2004, 16:50

As a parent of two and frequent flyer I would like to chart the middle ground here. We are blessed with two very well behaved kids who have traveled regularly by air since birth. The blessings of which I speak though were not wholly bestowed by heaven but through their upbringing and consistent discipline which makes them a pleasure to travel with. That their behavior on-board is almost always complimented by my fellow passenger, is a source of pride for mum and dad – and by the way they are both extremely happy kids.

Central to my thesis is, when suffering badly behaved children, the main culprit is the accompanying parent(s). My casual observation is that those same adults are often the type that would disturb your flight in some way without their darlings in tow. This doesn’t of course prevent the annoyance of suffering bad kids on board in any class.

My empathy is always there to the young couple or mum with a crying baby on-board, desperately trying to appease its needs – the situation is tearing their heart out too – I know, we have been there. Help from us is always available be it the sympathetic smile right down to the hands-on action. I am rather proud of my baby burping technique and enjoy the adulation that comes from the successful completion of the mission. My wife has also the kind of shoulder and murmur that sooths troubled little souls. Sometimes it is enough to give the parents the respite to gather their own strength for the task ahead. As to being puked on under fire – well that’s all part of the Great Game. So I think you can see that I’m very tolerant of babies and get very annoyed at badly behaving kids – or adults for that matter.

Only once did our family have the pleasure of traveling business class. My then seven year old daughter settled herself into her chair across the aisle next to an understandably nervous looking businesswomen. She politely introduced herself, admired her palatial surroundings and said “Daddy, I do like business class!”. Thus started a very enjoyable flight for all, with compliments from businesswoman and crew at the end. It can be done folks, it just takes good old fashioned parenting - which is not universally fashionable these days.

To answer the original question though. It is my understanding that there are neither child nor infant fares available in business class, at least on the carriers that I have flown. Would I take my infant though into business class even if I had the money for another full premium fare? – No, I would be too embarrassed lest he/she disturbs someone who has paid a lot for a bit of P & Q. I believe tolerance works both ways.

curmudgeon

3rd Apr 2004, 17:41

Willowman

My experience of taking my infants in business class is that they were charged at 10% of the full adult fare. That's for no seat, or guaranteed basinette. I've also paid the discounted adult fare for when they were children, as often this has been cheaper than the child fare at 66% of the full adult fare.

FWIW, my own view is that I expect my children to behave on an aeroplane, in any class, in the same way they should in a resturant or hotel. Words or worse will be had if they disobey.

cur

419

3rd Apr 2004, 19:15

In my opinion, badly behaved children on aircraft be treated the same as badly behaved adults?. The only difference being, that as most of these children act this way because they've never been taught how to behave properly, and their parents don't give a sh1t about the other passengers, any disruptive action should result in the parents (and the children) being refused a business/upper class seat in the future.
I've ocassionally had to sit beside people who have very young children or babies, who often scream or cry, BUT, whilst this can make for an uncomfortable flight, this is not what I am refering to. Crying (and puking) by babies is normal and can not be avoided.
The majority of children I've ever encountered on aircraft, are usually very well behaved. Surely if some can manage it, it wouldn't be too hard for all of them.

419

Snoopy

5th Apr 2004, 00:44

This topic surfaces at regular intervals and really gets my goat. I travel in F & C on business alone and when I travel for leisure my family and I travel in C. Because I can afford it and because when I'm going on vacation I don't see why I should squeeze myself into an airline seat with a shoehorn and hobble around at destination for 24 hours because I had no room for my legs.

My two boys, now strapping teenagers, have always flown up front wth my wife and I. They have behaved well, which is more than can be said about many adults that have surrounded us.

Do I need to go through the catalogue of transgressions that we adults commit and yet which we seem to tolerate somehow because the transgressor is the same age as us and has a gold card? Snoring loudly (ok, that's probably me, so I thought I'd get that in first), two colleagues yacking loudly over their headphones so they can continue the conversation without missing the movie, taking of shoes and socks and resting bare feet on the seatback in front, .....and the list goes on.

Why do we always pick on the parents and kids? Because we always pick on those that are weaker and present an easier target. Becuse we are all intolerant, becuse we all think that the world revolves around ME, and because it is our RIGHT. We are ENTITLED. The thing that I always have to laugh about is why business class passengers (whose tickets are often being paid for by their companies) seem to think that they are holier than the people in the back of the bus. Why should economy passengers be any more disturbed by a child (or by a boorish adult) than a passenger in business class? Don't they have rights too?

Rant over....I'm outta here

TightSlot

5th Apr 2004, 08:57

Yay! - Go Snoops - Couldn't agree with you more :ok:

speedbird_heavy

5th Apr 2004, 09:20

Its good to see more people posting here and putting "mature" travelers in their place.

SLF3

5th Apr 2004, 11:15

Business class check in, BA, Abu Dhabi. Comment from an old hand:

'If they offer you an upgrade, turn them down - the kids run around all night - you'll sleep better in Club.'

I've never seen badly behaved kids in Club, but don't count crying babies. Perhaps rich brats are the price of travelling first class!

Nick Riviera

6th Apr 2004, 12:00

Christep

So how would you have stopped the baby crying? This is a serious question, I would love to know a foolproof technique.

I think Tightslot has it right. Compared to many other nationalities the British do seem to be intolerant towards children. This is most notable when travelling through Europe where children tend to be seen as a joy and not an encumberance.

eal401

6th Apr 2004, 12:58

Funny isn't it.

You're entitled to take your children wherever you like, whenever you like.

I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids.

I offer the above as an example and ask who the selfish party is?

sixmilehighclub

6th Apr 2004, 13:32

Hmm, similar to a scenario I once heard of when a pax in club complained when the CC offered the pax behind her a spray of a perfume tester, she complained it was affecting her sense of smell. The CC asked if madam would in future be better off taking her own private jet?

You pays your money, you takes your choice!

All pax pay a similar amount to travel, depending on your ticket supplier, its not fair someone should have to travel in a lower class just because they chose to have kids. It may be annoying when you want peace and relaxation but then maybe so does the mother or child???

Anyone can book club or first providing they can afford it, it is not an exclusive club.

Any airline who may one day announce a childban, is (I feel) risking their whole image of being a caring airline!! Especially whereas most flights I used to operate would carry on average up to 10% children under 10.

Whenever I had the time as CC, I used to take troublesome or upset children and wonder up and down the cabin with them, to try and calm them down. It gave the mother a rest and diverted the child away from their boredom.
Children get upset because they sense their mother or father is harassed from a previous 5 hour journey, delays, uncomfortablensss, lack of rest..... Often children suffer with ear problems after climb and at descent, whch can ache the entire flight if not balanced out to match the cabin pressure, and they dont understand why they are hurting or cant speak to tell someone!

ANYWAY, HERE'S SOME HINTS FOR TRAVELLING WITH KIDS......

EAR PROBS:
Adults & Children: A good remedy for this is a few drops of olbas oil on a tissue in a cup or doubled up plastiglass, then soaked in a little hot water, then close nose around top, close your eyes and inhale for as long as possible (apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin) DO NOT TIP UP THE CUP!! Then blow nose!
Young children & babies: A few drops of karvol oil on a hanky inhaled 30 mins before flight, or during a flight especially if they have a cold, or if during climb/descent then try a dummy/pacifier or a bottle).
Adults not travelling with children complaining about crying children: Buy earplugs, insert into ears, enjoy your flight.

TRAPPED WIND/ STOMACH CRAMPS:
Bend yourself over your left knee or massage left hand side of abdomen (once again, apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin - so take yourself off to the loo compartment, they have airvents!!) If you think an infant has tummy ache, pat their stomach gently, it seems to give reassurance.

Always carry calpol or similar, the sachets are very handy!!

KEEPING THEM BUSY.....
Ensure you have adequate entertainment for kids, crayons are good, travel connect 4, comics, puzzle books, walkmans for older kids (please be careful you limit the volume, the listener will have background noise so will want to turn it up, not good for the ears!)
Baby toys are great, especially if they are teething and need something to bite on, but be considerate and make sure its not too rattly or musical.
Simple items they are not used to, like empty plastic cups or a toothbrush (different textures) can keep them occupied for a while.

Walking around the cabin with a baby (between services, when not busy in the aisles, not obstructing a tv screen, and when its safe to leave your seat) is great, sometimes the baby is bored of their scenery and gets restless, then upset, you also may get other passengers stopping you to see your baby which creates a diversion for the child.

Hope this helps, the only thing I would suggest is that you check with cabin crew to ensure using anything smelly or electrical, or walking around their galley is ok by them on your flight, after all all airlines vary.

For the remaining 763 pages I have written on this subject today , please send and sae to.............!!

PS Nick Riviera, I'm British and very tolerant, and I know I'm not the only one.

Snoopy

6th Apr 2004, 13:55

eal401 wrote:

"I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids."

But that is precisely the point that I was making: why single out rowdy kids? What about the adult walking around without shoes, or the guy in the lounge yelling into his mobile phone? I find them every bit offensive, if not more, than rowdy kids. But how many threads do you see about them? Parents with kids just present an easier target, that's all and its' wrong.

redsnail

6th Apr 2004, 14:28

6mile, thank you for posting that info. :D

TightSlot

6th Apr 2004, 15:36

eal401 I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids. Quite right, you're not. You have no right whatsoever to such a flight. The same goes for a journey on a bus and train, or any other area where people gather in large numbers. Such a right is not recognised either in law, or existing moral and social conventions: Society understands that such incidents, while being irritating or unpleasant are an unfortunate side effect of a lot of people existing together in a confined area.

Were you to exercise such a theoretical right, you would in the process, deny the right of those kids/family to travel (subject to your subjective assesment of "rowdy"), or if they did travel, simply transfer the inconvenience to other geographically remote customers. You are deeming your rights as being more important than those of other people.

In summary - This sort of hissy fit whinging is not dissimilar to that exhibited by the very young children that are being complained about. Next time it happens, look around: Everyone else is equally irritated, but they're dealing with it like adults. Try learning from example?

strake

6th Apr 2004, 20:18

Please tell me this thread is a joke...right?

You are travelling on public transport...guess what..there'll be other members of the public with you.....

Arrogant, smelly, obnoxious, noisy, old, young, attractive, ugly, funny, sad, talkative, shy, rude, pleasant...and that's just F class pax.

Get used to it or stay at home.

Snoopy

7th Apr 2004, 00:32

Strake wrote:

Please tell me this thread is a joke...right?

Strake, it would be if it didn't resurface at depressingly frequent intervals....... Some people should spend their lives in an oxygen tent

BEagle

7th Apr 2004, 06:24

Passengers should be expected to show consideration for others. That means stopping their kids from behaving in a manner which causes annoyance to others - why should the whole cabin be disturbed by out-of-control spoiled brats running up and down the aisles, for example?

Children should be seen and not heard. Not such an unreasonable idea...

TightSlot

7th Apr 2004, 06:32

Children should be seen and not heard. Not such an unreasonable idea... In the view of a minority living near CVT, this is also true of aircraft.;)

warkman

7th Apr 2004, 07:29

[/quote] "Passengers should be expected to show consideration for others. That means stopping their kids from behaving in a manner which causes annoyance to others - why should the whole cabin be disturbed by out-of-control spoiled brats running up and down the aisles, for example? "[quote]

hmm, let's see, adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor
and all of these examples happen in first class
and you are whining on about children????

eal401

7th Apr 2004, 09:08

You are deeming your rights as being more important than those of other people.

As are the parents on here. The point is, we'll never get what we want. Unfortunately, the above attitude plays into the hands of the many "don't give a toss" parents who allow their little darlings to do what they like. Then those little darlings grow up into the adults who have a temper tantrum because they can't have a 25th glass of champagne.

Based on the above quote, nobody has the right to go past an aisle seat passenger to go to the loo, nobody has the right to walk around the plane, nobody has the right to eat, drink etc.

But if anybody says "I don't like kids" all the "my darlings do what they like" types are screaming blue murder! Yet, I'm the one being selfish!! Ho-hum.

By the way, I don't have a problem with well behaved kids in public. However, in the UK, this is an ever increasing rarity that the Rose-Tinted Spectacles gang fail to see.

Oh and Warkman, I've not witness any of the adult behaviour you describe, though I don't deny that it happens in rare instances. I have been kept awake on night flights by screaming kids. How arrogant of me to want to sleep. :rolleyes:

christep

7th Apr 2004, 09:34

Warkman said
adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor

In something like 500 flights over the last five years (in various classes and on various carriers) I have not seen a single instance of any of these. However, I guess I have had babies (and frankly it is far more often babies than (3-12 yo) children that are the problem) causing sufficient extended disturbance (let's define that as 30mins or more in a flight) that I was unable to work or sleep as I had planned on perhaps 15 occasions.

I'm afraid earplugs simply don't work well enough if they baby is within 10 yards. The only thing that comes close is a good pair of noise-cancelling headphones with some fairly loud music being played through them.

The question isn't about rights - the question is whether there is a sufficient market of people prepared to pay a premium for "infant-free" flights for it to make business sense for some airlines on some routes. Clearly it wouldn't work on all routes, but on busy ones where an airline flies, say, 3 or more times per day then I would have thought it would be worth an experiment to make one of those flights - presumably one at peak business travel time - infants-free, with a slight price premium (say 5%) and see what happened.

speedbird_heavy

7th Apr 2004, 11:31

Private air offer a "non-infant/child" service. Maybe all those whos right it is to a peacefull, un-disturbed flight should look at this option. Other than that, stop complaining and accept the fact that its public transport.

Snoopy

7th Apr 2004, 12:18

Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that we parents (I am a parent after all) are absolved of any responsibility regarding our children and should allow them to run rampant through the cabin (whichever class that is.... Y class is no more a playground than the pointy end is). I am just tired of parents being singled out for criticism on a regular basis when there are plenty of adults who are far more offensive than children are.

One thing has become patently clear to me over the years during my travels. People have (generally...luckily there are exceptions) become selfish and intolerant. To the point where one's freedom becomes an encroachment on the others. How often have you heard someone say something really nasty about someone and then claim "freedom of speech". The slogan "it's a free world" being used as an excuse to do something which is quite obviously an inconvenience to someone else.

Getting on with each other is all about compromise and looking for solutions both parties can live with. It is something we often forget as we look for "all or nothing" solutions. Strangely enough people who master this concept are often less stressed and generally just feel better about themselves. It's really worth making the effort....

Land After

7th Apr 2004, 16:31

As a parent and a frequent flyer, who will soon be taking mini MAN Pax (20 mths) to BGI in 1st, I can see both sides of the case.

I think that BA and VS could both accommodate the serious no children element by making the upper deck of the 747 either a child permitted or no child zone, depending on the demand for either. On main business routes where people are paying a premium price to arrive rested and ready to work the following day, I believe that there should be some protection of that right. On mainly leisure routes, BGI, MRU, etc., I think you have to be a little more flexible.

But, this is no way excuses poor behaviour from Parents, Children or Spoilt Children masquerading as 45 year old Pax!

419

7th Apr 2004, 23:24

Quote
"adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor"

Maybe if some parents took better control of their children, and didn't let them behave how they liked, they might possibly grow into adults who wouldn't dream of doing any of the above acts.
Spoilt brats grow into louts, who don't give a sh1t about anyone else.

419

maxalt

13th Apr 2004, 01:11

I really wonder how many of the 'outraged parents' brigade who are having a hissy fit about the intolerance of the rest of us would react on a solo business flight to having the toddler in the seat behind them kick their ass for hours and scream all through the night?

I'm sure you are all the very model of tolerance and perseverance.
After all...being a parent equips you for martyrdom.

autosync

13th Apr 2004, 03:36

What i can't seem to get my head around is the amount of young children travelling abroad in the middle of a school term.

Don't want to give you a bleeding heart story but I was about 9 years old the first time I got onboard an airplane and I remember looking forward to it and had a better understanding, appreciation and anticipation for it and even went on to become a pilot!

And I intend to do the same with my kids in the future, they certainly won't be missing school to follow me around the world on business or to go on holidays and they absoloutely, certainly won't be getting first class tickets at 18 months old!!

Its not my position to tell you how to bring up your kids but......

Snoopy

13th Apr 2004, 12:57

Its not my position to tell you how to bring up your kids

Couldn't have put it better if I'd have tried ;)

FJJP

17th Apr 2004, 00:00

Few years ago I flew from Bahrein to LHR in a BA 777, Business Class. All was going swimmingly until the seatbelt sign was switched off. That was the signal for a 10yo brat to start charging around the front cabin (he came from cattle class, where there was less room for his activities). He steadfastly ignored the long-suffering stewardesses, bad-mouthing one of them. After about an hour of this, a well-suited businessman quietly spoke to the kid. That was the last we saw of him. To this day I never found out what he said. He should copyright what he said and sell it to those of us that can't stand ill-disciplined brats.

BEagle

17th Apr 2004, 08:09

"Jimmy - have you ever watched gladiator movies...or seen a grown man naked?"

with apologies to 'Airplane'

flystudent

18th May 2004, 18:52

Interesting topic.

I have flown bus class (not first cant afford that) with my family from London to Melbourne once. At the time the youngest was 3 and the oldest 5 and we flew with Singapore. They were no bother at all, we decided on an airline which had a good in flight entertainment system. Each of their back packs was rammed full of toys and goodies should the in-flight become boring and we had loads of calpol for the youngest one and blackmail was rife, I mean the pot of gold that awaited them if they behaved for 24 hours was huge and they got it.
I felt uneasy boarding the flight as I was a little concerned for those who sat near us but at the end of the flights all said how good they had been. I can only say it was down to planning PPP=PPP and all that.

When it does come down to kids charging around the cabins surely this is a time for people to exercise those diplomacy skills they have hopefully acquired through life. I bet many people sit there just moaning to their co-travellers rather than perhaps offering some help or perhaps asking the attendant if you can help at all (that may be just the polite hint for them to speak to the parents and offer assistance) I don't know what crew training is in these situations, they probably do this already at a guess ??

If no joy as the earlier thread, the man who spoke directly to the kid, something perhaps a simple as "I am a policeman and you are not allowed to run around planes" may have done it, lol, or you see this £1 coin, would you like it ? well I will give it to you when we get off the plane if...... kids and bribery etc etc perhaps better than scaring them :-)

Also re kids charging around, I have seen it, let's face it kids get bored and also I have seen parents go for a stroll (cause we can get bored too) with the kids, very proactive I think whereas the charging kids carer is perhaps just watching a film and says yes off you go, maybe they don't know the havoc being caused. In the interest of safety to everyone (hot drinks and food etc) surely there is a case here for parents to be told to control their children. (in polite words)

If they didn't and a child bowls into someone serving boiling coffee and it lands on a customer I guess that customer would have a case to claim against the server/airline if they are injured. I guess one would then ask well did the server or anyone have words with the kids or the kids parents. If they did then perhaps the responsibility lies with the parents but if not, if c.crew have done nothing about it, what next ? who is to blame ? (Just thinking out loud !)

As for the screaming baby, you have to feel for the family so badly, do they really want their kids screaming ? of course they don't, they are dying and wishing they were not there when this happens. Maybe that's why everyone gets a free pair of head-phones :O

I don't know if they do but perhaps flights should carry the likes of calpol etc for upset infants ??

Just my thoughts.
Regards

Flystudent

takenthe5thamendment

18th May 2004, 19:47

perhaps flights should carry the likes of calpol etc for upset infants ??

Dunno if I'd be happy with unqualified people giving out medication for babies willy-nilly.

Only a child's parent can know if the baby is actually in pain, it's certainly NOT advisable to give drugs of this sort on an ad hoc basis.

I would expect that any sensible parent would ensure that they have appropriate meds in their baby kit when travelling.

brockenspectre

18th May 2004, 21:17

On short-haul flights where many people are trying to prepare for business meetings it might be helpful for airlines to have a "business section" ... (business class used to be that!) and on flights destined for, primarily, family vacations maybe space for families should also be thought out. After all, trying to line up a family with small children and have them sit in a row facing seat-backs is not gong to help kids have a good time, equally, as others have said, when trying to sleep ahead of picking up a hire car at the onward destination means that many adults, even though "on vacation", might appreciate a place to be less disturbed by the antics of their fellow vacation-bound passengers.

Not quite sure what the solution is, there appear to be as many parents who expect everyone to accept the bad behaviour of their home-grown monsters as there are parents who you can feel genuinely sorry for (and try to help) as they are clearly stressing out because of their kids' behaviour (oftentimes these are parents of good kids who act up as others have said on take off or landing!)...and we have all read about air-rage and the horror stories of drunken adult pax.

For many flying and taking a vacation are a thrill and delight, for others it is pure hell and stressy and everyone copes in different ways. I always make sure I have more than ample time to do all I need before getting on board, have facial water spray, ear plugs, eyeshade etcetc (ie all my personal treats) to make my flight pleasant for me. I check in to a seat (usually in traveller) which I have chosen - aisle for long-haul daytime, window for short-haul or long-haul night-time (now that flight deck visits are history!). I am lucky, I have flown a reasonable amount in business and economy so know what I need to do to give myself the best and most enjoyable flight possible.

I don't like kids kicking the back of my seat, I equally don't like an adult violently pushing my semi-reclined seat back because they don't want to sleep on an overnighter ... I don't like drunken pax and as in real life don't like violent behaviour or rude behaviour of any kind so particularly dislike shouted conversations over my head between different members of a party whose seats are not together. Unfortunately, because an aircraft is a public place and I don't have the means to buy myself the entire First/Upper cabin I have to put up with a lot of "intereference" ... tough on me ... but it doesn't mean that I lose sight of being as pleasant to my fellow pax and cabin crew as is appropriate... after all ... if it does all go pear-shaped I would like think we could all work together to produce the best possible outcome!

I do, however, think the airlines somehow need to re-assess the service they can offer pax that do travel to different destinations and for different purposes. :ok:

Smeagol

19th May 2004, 09:09

Flystudent

Your thoughts and experience largely mirror my own.

Many years ago when my children travelled extensively with self & Mrs S we adopted similar measures. Never had any problems or complaints. In fact Mrs S, when on SIN/LHR flight with juniormost S (about 3 at the time) and was upgraded to business class, had a similar comment passed about small sprog.

Recently travelled back to the land of sand with entire family, including 3 yo granddaughter, was gratified to see that son and d-in-law used similar techniques successfully.

Takenthe5th

Whilst I appreciate your concerns, not all parents actually travel with appropriate 'medication'(?)

Was once able to offer something to parents travelling with 2 small children (London to NZ) to calm crying baby. It was greatfully accepted by parents and the rest of the passengers were MORE than greatful!

Jimlad

31st May 2004, 15:57

VS22 last Friday had lots of toddlers on the flight - I dont think anyone slept as they were all screaming and were clearly uncomfortable.
While waiting at the baggage line I mentioned to a ground staff chap about this and said I thought it rather irresponsible to take babies on long haul flights - at which point an american father decided to stand there and scream at me for being an "F*cking T*at"and followed on for five minutes effing and blinding at me. He then turned his attention to the ground staff and was threatening to have him fired for no good reason (!) at which point I started looking for security and also afterwards made a point of going with the ground staff to his manager and making very clear that the American was utterly out of order in his behaviour and I was happy to go on the record about this. It is grossly unfair that people like that are allowed to threaten normal workers just doing their job. I'm still furious about it now.

Momo

31st May 2004, 19:28

Well, I have taken my kids in all classes long haul, and been a victim of screaming babies in all classes too, once with a (?) Philippina nanny and two googoos in First. I think the reason there are more babies - proportionately - in Economy may just be that there are more seats. Two notes:

1. When there is no noise left in your life, that is because you are dead.

2. The most effective ear plugs I have found are the "Quies" wax ones. You do have to remember to remove the cotton that covers the wax. In extreme cases, leave your headphones on.

Other suggestions for artificial silence?

Momo

The Scarlet Pimpernel

31st May 2004, 21:08

There are merits to all sides to this argument - and as a travelling parent with a 2 year old (pleasure!) or as a FO up the front (work) I can see both sides of the coin.

There was an instance not too long ago where there were children in CC running around and causing an obvious nuisance. On a "leg stretch" to the loo, I saw for myself the irritation that these kids were causing....they were travelling with a single parent who was patently out of her depth as the 2 kids didn't take a blind bit of notice of her. Not her fault - there are days when my nipper ignores me, even though I pride myself on being a caring, considerate parent who insists on giving his offspring the discipline that will serve them well throughout life (an ex-mil type can't get away from good discipline!!!). So I went back and told the skipper, who gave a very friendly PA to the effect that the aircraft was not a playground, that the Cabin Crew had a very important job to do (including serving scalding hot pots of tea and coffee) and that if we encountered turbulence, children out of their seats could be seriously injured. This fell on deaf ears, so we stuck the seat belt signs on ..... for half an hour. Soon enough, the kids were sat down, and once she had managed to regain control of them they were fine.

Flying in Club or First should enable you to have a more comfortable journey than those in economy, but children are an integral part of the fabric of our society and should be tolerated, especially as flying is, in general, a completely new and exciting experience for them. If there are kids that are irritating you, then either ask the Cabin Crew to ask the childrens' parents to reign them in or ask them yourself! I have to say that investing 50p in a pair of foam earplugs could be the best 50p you've spent!

As for "children should be seen and not heard".......a) Fat chance, and b) The Victorian era is long gone. There are good parents and bad parents, good children and bad children. However, the percentage of bad adults to bad children is staggering.

PAXboy

1st Jun 2004, 11:58

MomoOther suggestions for artificial silence? I have told this story before, so skip if you've heard it ...

I once sat next to a lady on the way down to JNB. We were in Premium Economy and the infants were in the front row of Econo - so they were just a couple of rows back.

We were still at the gate waiting for push, when the babies started. The lady next to me fished in her bag for a remote control and pressed two buttons, before replacing it in her bag.

She said that she had a digital hearing aid and had adjusted it's frequency response - so that she could no longer hear the babies. The sooner my hearing fails and I get me one of them thar dickerty hearum raids ... :ok:

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr..

Skunkie

5th Jun 2004, 18:29

first there's a great difference between infant and child....child with schools usually fly in economy all in the same compartment, with their group leader 8and...I know they may be very noisy, but is not possible to deny admission on board!!!).
About First class and Club Class, many companies have a limit in the number of infant/child admitted, usually unaccompained minors travel in economy (and usually they are quiet).
I remember when my father (Captain on B-747) took me around the world with him, I had a briefing at home on how to behave on board, and a de-briefing after flight , if I made something wrong....:O
Anyway not all dads are like that, but if a businessman wants to take his son with him and pay the ticket has all the right to do it!

If someone is planning a long trip in Club or First Class, maybe can ask directly in reservation if children are allowed, booked and maybe ask for a preassigned seat far from them!

:rolleyes: in the unlucky case you are sitted next to a noisy child....well...try to ask to the cabin attendant if she can show him the galley AND THE OVENS heeeheeeeheeee...just kidding!!!!

Skunkie

loewy

6th Jun 2004, 01:17

speedbird_heavy, you are damn right !

Most of these idiots have their flight paid by their companies and couldn't afford them themselves. Let them complain... When they fly commercial with their young ones, they are int he back anyway !

I fly with my kids in C if I want to and the only people who have shown discomfort are those who cannot afford it themselves. Usual human jealousy... nothing more, nothing less.

L

klausk

15th Jun 2004, 22:18

Folks, this discussion is more or less stupid. Here's why:

A ticket gives you the right to fly. Your ticket is not a ticket for a quiet flight -- it's a ticket to move you from point A to point B.

Things happen - people talk, kids play, babies cry. None of this behaviour is quiet. You can tell a person to speak quieter, ask parents to stop their kids, but the problem are the babies. You can't talk to them and sometimes they cry just because they are scared of the plane. Or they can't (don't know how) equilize the pressure in their ears (BTW: if you've ever flown with a cold, you'll know if fr:mad:ing painful). Yes, the parents can HELP the baby, but they can't FORCE it to stop crying.

Everyone of you WAS a baby in his/her past and yes, believe it or not, you were screaming at least occasionally.

Where did everybody's tolerance go? Should we lock the babies into their own rooms because they cry? People, I'm stunned.... A plane is a mass transportation vehicle and so we have to live with each other for as long as the travel lasts - and tolerate each other, not even to mention to help each other on the plane.

Adult only flights? No, thank you. (what's the difference between "adults only" and "whites only"? - it's just another form of discrimination)

I personally traveled over the Atlantic several times with children under 2 years of age. We tried whatever possible to quiet them down. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Mostly, our fellow travellers were good enough to help us when we needed help and we appreciated it.

So, if you want a private transportation -- order a private jet. Otherwise you are on a "bus in the air" and everything that it comes with, including noise. And tolerate it because you don't have another option.

christep

16th Jun 2004, 03:52

Klausk,

Fortunately for the airlines not everyone agrees with you, other wise everyone would travel in economy class. Those of use who value space, privacy, good food and drink, lounges before and after, priority in case of problems and, yes, peace and quiet on board, are prepared to pay extra for that. The colour of someone's skin cannot affect my enjoyment of a flight; a screaming kid can. I would be very happy to pay a small premium to avoid that, in the same way that I pay a large premium for all the other benefits I mentioned.

CargoOne

16th Jun 2004, 08:34

just my $0.02

Flying reasonably often on LHR-SIN-LHR route with SQ I've got an impression that they follow unofficial rule of no children under 12 (or may be even 16) on C-class upper deck. I've told several times by their ticketing agent and check-in staff that "If you are looking for quiet ride we would recommend you to choose upper deck". And really I've never seen children on their upper deck yet.

Not sure about F class, I'm not really often there, but never seen under 12 there on CX and SQ, but once been been flying BA LHR-JNB sitting quite close to the mother with infant, and that was a nightmare for 7 hours in row. BA agreed later to compensate me, after I send them a claim, but anyway I'm on the side of prohibiting children (at least under 8 or 10) to F and C classes (OK, SQ way works well with separating pax between 2 decks).

Just think about it. In our world we have restraunts, we have hotels, including resorts, where the children are not allowed etc. May be it worth to think about the flights? I'm sure many of F and C class pax would support this idea, especially long haul.

Flip Flop Flyer

16th Jun 2004, 11:12

I recently flew BAH-LHR with GF in J-class. Unfortuneatly, I was in the last row of the J-cabin. As you will probably know, the front row of economy is where they usually sit families with small children, and this was no exception. 2 infants, I would guess around the age of 3-6 months, spend 90% of the flight screaming their heads off. While a baby has no other means of making the world know it's uncomfortable, adults should have the ability to understand that subjecting a baby to 7 hours in a jet is not their idea of fun. They must be suffering from pain in their ears, as well as being locked in a very dry, noisy and turbulent environment. In short, I find that parents taking babies on long flights are being rather cruel and incredibly selfish.

Now as luck would have it, GF's got these wonderful noise-cancelling headsets, and you can turn the volume up high enough to drown out the noise. Even better, I'd met the Sky Chef in BJ's the night before, and he was kind to offer me a seat further forward and less noisy. The poor sods sitting behind and next to these babies neither had the benefit of noise-cancelling head-sets nor the advantage of knowing a crew member. It must have been bloody horrible.

However, I have read the fine print on the back of the ticket and no-where does it say anything about not allowing babies. So I'd say that anyone willing to pay the money have as much right as anyone else to occupy any class of travel they can afford, bringing with them as many children as they like. It might not be very considerate of other people if you're flying with babies, but since when has consideration come back in fashion I wonder?

PS
When I landed in LHR, evil thoughts were festering in my mind about what to do with the parents of those screaming babies. Nothing a couple of Marlboro's and a cold Stella couldn't cure though.

an-124

16th Jun 2004, 12:57

After reading this, I would be hesitant to offer anybody (infant or otherwise) anything..

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/03/14/spiked.juice.ap/

Flying Business back from HKG about 3 weeks ago, I had developed a really bad cough and I could not stop the tickle in my throat. The pax next to me (Chinese) offered my a lozenge (well I think that that is what it was - all of the text was in Chinese..).

I did not know what it was, but took it anyway - What if I had had an allergic reaction to one of the ingredients? Maybe the flight would have to be diverted?

Getting back closer to the topic - (and trying to be a little more constructive than a few of the posts on this thread)

I am one of the "few" that has their bus class travel paid for. But even when I travel in cattle class, I hate being woken up by screaming children on Long Haul.

Most of the parents that I see with small children / Infants that are crying are extremely embarressed and do everything to get their child to cease crying.

Why not have a small sectioned/curtained off area at the rear of the aircraft for families with babies / small children? Surely this would be OK on the A380? If VS are planning on having room for bars etc., why not have a nursery style section with paintings of animals all over the walls??
More room for bassonetts etc. I know a lot of families that would go for this option...

This would serve the purpose of keeping both sets of PAX happy I.e. the economy class travellers who want to sleep, and the families that need to keep their children entertained..

(Then the doe-eyed parents of newborns could "network" with each other and swap baby story's and photos etc...) ;)

Any suggestions for possible names for this class??

Childrens Club?
Childrens Class?

CargoOne

16th Jun 2004, 13:20

an-124

There is one thing making your suggestion questionable:

if you have one infant who is screaming, so it is all what you have (apart from annoyed neighbours).

if you have a dedicated area for passengers with infants/children, and one, just one, child starts to scream - in 2 minutes you have all "baby class" screaming becuase children and especially infants tends to scream if anyone else screaming nearby... so it's a potential hell on every second flight :)

Skunkie

16th Jun 2004, 16:26

an-124 -and everyone- you are perfectly right as a passenger (I also hate baby screaming...) but even if most airlines still offers business and first class services, they (ALL) are trying to reduce costs, both to lower tickets fares and to balance their accounts.
A "Screaming-babies Class" would be a very comfortable innovation for travelers (except who is sitted just behind the curtain.......) but I think it will remain a dream for economic reasons!
Someone in this thread reminded that people should accept the fact that air transport is becoming affordable to everyone and the line is that...in the near future aircraft will be closer and closer to a bus and it will be easier to find really every kind of people on board.
I don't mean to be racist toward anyone, but I think it is the crude fact!
I' ve been flying for 14 years as as stewardess and now I work on ground in an international hub, so I can see the matter from both sides....it is a pity for me to see air transport going this way, but I don't think there will be any company operating for businessmen in general, at least for the next years...
Let's hope passengers who are not used to fly and families with children will soon learn good manners and the right behaviour to take on board an aircraft! :rolleyes:

many happy and comfortable flights to everyone:ok:
p.s. don't forget your ear plugs!!!!!!