F4 Phantom

[johnfairr]

If I've missed it, my apologies, but what with the Vulcan, Victor and Canberra threads all receiving a large number of hits ( and great stories!) it would be churlish not to have one about the F4.

Having worshiped it from afar in the 60s and been privileged to be chopped on it in the 70s by the breaker of the only proper flying Me 109, I would love to hear more of this outstanding aircraft in RAF service.

[BEagle]

The 'Breaker of the only proper flying Me109' was the only real aircrew-friendly 4-star. Excellent chap who, having owned up to his own cock-up with the Gustav, realised that 'blame culture' had no place in the avoidance of repeat incidents. Ba$tard Bill was a much lesser person, but don't we all know that....

Perhaps the best 4-star of recent years, in my humble opinion.

Sorry he failed you; I got a bit further on the F4 but didn't like the lifestyle very much. After being chopped having been 'Operational' on the beast, I was partly glad to get away form the rat-packs, secret squirrels and certain pi$$ed, incompetent navigators who infested the F4 squadrons of the time...

OK - let's put it to the vote. Do we include the 'toom in the 'Did you fly' stickies?

[johnfairr]

BEagle,

Don't get me wrong, I am still in love with the F4 and saddened only that I didn't get more time on type. My reason for posting was that this is a superb environment for a closer association with the things that seemed to matter then.

I concede your point about the secret squirrel aspect, I probably suffered from it as well, considering my subsequent postings.

If you consider the topic worthy of further investigation - great - if not, it will die a natural death. It's called democracy, or voting with your keyboard.

:ok:

[Man-on-the-fence]

From a spod head point of view. I have loved the other threads and provided its within the rules I say bring it on!!

[soddim]

With nearly 3000hrs F4 it is hard not to feel attached to the 'Toom' and it is only the lack of a British pedigree that detracts from the nostalgia.

During the hayday of the Lightning the American squadrons were turning and burning in F4s and it was a pleasure to leave the Lightning and fly the F4 with its' vastly better weapons system and multi-role capability. Even our politicians failed to ruin it by fitting Spey engines - although they came close when the engines were only lasting 100hrs or so in the early days.

In the F4 we had the best weapons system of the day and the stretch potential to last for years - it was almost as if we had entered a new generation with inertial nav and pulse doppler radar. Admittedly it took the cancellation of TSR2 to force the procurement of both it and the Buccaneer but in these two aircraft we had a very capable front line.

Sadly, it was the last fast jet we were allowed to buy from across the pond.

[Rhino power]

Sincerely hope this topic is as popular as the other "Did you fly......." threads, I've been a phan (sorry!) of the Rhino since I used to stare transfixed at them through the fence at Coningsby when I wer' a lad!, our local ATC sqn did a base visit in June '87, one month after they had left for Leuchars, did get to sit in the sim though!:D

Regards, RP

[Gainesy]

Any vet could tell you that if you Spey a beast, its arse gets bigger and it goes a bit slower.:)

[Muppet Leader]

RAF Stanley, 3rd tour, 1983.
The F4 came in quite handy for steam cleaning the snow off the runway.

I was lucky enough, being a common oik, to be offered a back seat ride, when one was being taken up for a stress test!

I’ve got to take my hat off to the crews for this unforgettable experience.
If you are the driver, you know what is going to happen, ‘cos you move the stick and pedals.
Quite how the back seat guys manage to type, and push the right buttons, God alone knows.

I remember trolling along quite nicely, and the driver asks ”Are you ready for this?”
“Go for it” I replied.
The only thing I can think of, to sum up the next 20 minutes or so is

BU66ER ME

:ok:

[soddim]

But it caused a few problems operating from a rolled and sanded snow-packed runway at Andoya. The first pairs take-off neatly turned the runway into an ice-covered skating rink and only a very efficient Norwegian hot sanding operation enabled them to land back on.

After that it was take-offs on the left and landings on the right.

[Aileron Roll]

Excellent choice of aircraft for a post, have never seen one fly but have drooled over a couple at Duxford and Hendon.

What ever became of Robert Priest who wrote that superb book ?

[johnfairr]

I have a great deal of bother imagining Bob Prest as a priest, so I assume that was a typo? As I recall he wasn't the type to wear dog-collars, anything really cool was more in his line.

Last I heard he was in SOAF on Strikemasters, but that was a long, long time ago. Nice to hear more about him

[stillin1]

A true international classic.
Had the flying characteriscics of a brick sh#t-house, was built like one too and overcame nearly all of its deficiancies with brute thrust. The FG1 had a nav system guaranteed to make you laugh - if the nav kit made it to the same country as you it was a wonderful one. the FGR2 - a solid work-horse and the F4J a great little rocket-ship. All predated the computer! She would bite if you got it wrong but rewarded you handsomly when you got it right. Like most who had the pleasure to fly one - Phantastic. I think most of us were in love with the Big ******, I certainly was for 8 yrs worth of flying and still am now. landings = take-offs which is good! :ok:

[rustybh]

From a ginger beer perspective I had the pleasure of working on the "last one" (XT597) at Boscombe during my time there. (Despite buring me hand more than once on the pitot tube whilst trying not to fall off the spine during BF's!!) :{

Always enjoyed watching it escape for the day for the many and varied trials work.

Am reminded of it daily due to the Boscombe commisioned Philip West print above my desk. :)

[handysnaks]

I can certainly remember the things rattling my scratcher when the battle flight of 19 or 92 got airborne....

[Aileron Roll]

JohnFair,

yep I ment Robert Prest !

Did his Squadron mates know he was writting this, must have cost him a beer or 6 when the book was published !

[LOMCEVAK]

BEagle,

Be very careful, please, in any analysis of the "Black 6" accident. The pilot admitted to a misjudged forced landing. However, the reason why this was necesary in the first place was never conclusively proven. I suggest that anyone who is interested visits the AAIB website, www.dft.gov.uk/ and looks under Accident Investigation in the bulletins for May 1998 for the accident report.

rustybh, 597, now there was a jet that brings back memories. It still sits outside the "museum at Boscombe. Still went to Mach 2 nicely right until the end (not easy in most Spey-engined ones). 852, the YF-4M was another nice one. Happy memories.

My F4 conversion lasted 2 1/2 days; the one day "senior officers' refresher" groundschool (i.e. what you really neded to know), an hour in the sim and a couple of dual trips. It was so much easier in the circuit than the Bucc as you did not approach at the AoA limit and you had thrust in hand! The only problem with flying both was that the audio AoA tones in the Phantom FG1 were in the opposite sense to those in the Bucc! And from 600 KIAS on the deck in a clean F4 you could make around 30,000 ft in a vertical climb at the end of a display. Those were the days.

[rustybh]

Happy days - First engine runs I ever did were on 597 when I was fresh from the apprentices. Cold frosty mornings, earplugs, defenders, wooly hat and hood up on my greens and it was still to damn loud!!

[soddim]

Aileron Roll,

Last heard Bob Prest was flying for Gulf Air.

[BEagle]

Actually I was there when he explained that he had made a mistake (OK, not a cock-up) - and that had helped him to realise the significant difference between human factors mistakes (no-one is 100% perfect) and reckless behaviour (idiots deliberately disobeying clear orders). He said this in front of an audience of aircrew - we all respected him for that. Top bloke - and still is!

Reason for the initial cause of the problem hasn't been established.

I suspect that we agree!

Back to the F4......

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ummmmm! There is a limit to the number of 'classics' we can have as Sticky's. :sad:

[Jobza Guddun]

Surely after all this time the flyers must be able to yarn about interesting times far out to sea chasing Bears and Badgers? And what about goings-on in the ADIZ from the Wildenrath guys?

Well, anything on the lines of the Vulcan/Victor/Canberra threads... :ok:

[johnfairr]

1974, F4 OCU: GA & AD courses going through at the same time, much banter, mud-moving vs ear-defending etc. The first Luftwaffe exchange crew, ever, come through Coningsby. All the RAF chaps in awe of the smart leather jackets, cool shades and extremely tasty other halves. Both guys are good operators, know the ropes, enter into friendly game of getting through the OCU without causing too many waves.

Last phase before moving to Squadron is live drop at Wainfleet, one LW pilot & RAF nav in #1, RAF pilot and LW nav in #2, call into the range. Strange noise on range frequency, sounds like music, but not quite. Further audio checks and it transpires the LW pilot is singing, quietly, the German National Anthem. Breaks into intelligible words.... "Today ve make history, zis is ze first time, since 1945, zat ze Tcherman Air force has dropped bombs on Britain..." "In hot..... off range..etc, etc.."

Laconic voice from Range officer, who by the way flew the BoBF Lancaster, "No wonder you lost the f.....g war, those bombs were 6 o'clock at 2000 yards...!!"

Fair play to the guy, he had a Transall come in to CGY and drop a barrel of finest quality German beer for the occasion, which we all enjoyed at HH.... whilst discussing the accuracy or not of the mud-movers.

Happy days.



:ok: :ok:

[soddim]

Must have been round about that period at Coningsby when a real live pig was released into a dining in night and did a porking good job interrupting boring speeches.

And we formed the 641st TAF in Cyprus during the Turkish invasion in 1974 under the UN flag - composed of 6 Sqn, 41 Sqn and 64 (reserve) Sqn. 54 Sqn were not represented since they were all by then single role AD.

Coningsby in those days had 3 x F4 operational squadrons and the F4 OCU all operating out of the hangars on the North side - now it has lots more buildings on the North side, two shelter complexes southside, no squadrons - just waiting for a few Typhoons.

Is this value for our taxes?

[johnfairr]

Soddim,

Wasn't that also the time that the boss of 6 was a guest of King H of J, "somewhere in the Med.." and couldn't fly the odd few miles to take over the 641TAF in Cyprus, but had to fly back past it, then turn round in the UK and come back. Also, I think 54 were being re-plated as 111 when they dumped their navs and then flew Jags out of Colt.

I think the pig was slightly later, though I'm sure BEagle can give time, place and attendees.

[Brain Potter]

Was any kit changed when the F4 was "swung" from GA to AD role in the mid 70's? Its a pity the Typhoon can't make the change so easily. (Not a dig, just an observation)

[BEagle]

The 'Pink Rabbit' incident was indeed much later! 1981, I think?

I wasn't there at the time, but was told how it went:

'Beetle', the boss of the OCU is giving a very boring end-of-tour speech when there is a creaking noise from behind the mess curtains as a sash window is carefully opened - a sound of mirth is heard in the background. Then a piglet appears through the curtains, dressed in an OCU T-shirt. It site there blinking bemusedly until Courtney (29 sqn chap) gives it a kick up the ar$e. It goes mental, rushes around squealing in fear whilst the speaker tries to carry on. Finally the speech stops and the PMC orders the piglet to be apprehended. Mayhem ensues, chairs overturn, tables shift as 29 Sqn do their best to catch it. I can't recall how it was caught, but eventually the situation calms down and the PMC orders 29 Sqn to leave the dining room. So they go straight to the bar, the barman thinks that the dinner has finished early, so they all get stuck in to a few beers before the rest of the diners arrive several boring speeches later......

Unfortunately, A/Cpl Plod doing his rounds later spots a suspicious looking cardboard box outside the mess dining room window.... Upon investigation, it is found to contain straw and pig $hit - Plod is not impressed!

The Stn Cdr at the time was Ba$tard Bill. The miserable git banned everyone on the station from ever mentioning the incident, but the word soon leaked out and the 'pink rabbit' saga was soon famous around the F4 world!

[Vectoredthrust]

My vivid recollection of Phantom aerodramatics was back in circa 1981.
I was a young eager engineer at BAE jewel in the crown site (Warton) and so tended to watch as many aircraft comings and goings as I could without being told off.
One day I saw a Phantom on the approach and being a bit out of the ordinary I decided to watch it land.
Well unbelievably on the approach, gear down etc, at about 500ft he decided to do a 360deg roll and then complete the landing! Absolutely unbelievable.

Almost as good fun as K Hartley Lightning take-offs.

Happy daze.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Yesss, I remember Toom Town and the 92 Battle Flight very well.

That German lunatic Matthias Rust has taken years off me. As he pootled his way towards the East German border and Red Square I was reclining in the Battle Flight en suite accommodation watching some "top shelf" publications from the NAAFI video shop whilst spooning in my trout & almond entree served in a hotlock, (life doesn't get much better). This idyll was destroyed by an almighty noise hitting the room like a freight train coming through the wall, I still can't explain it. A blur of then ensued, rather like the star ship Enterprise engaging warp speed. After what seemed like 3.2 seconds I found myself half naked stood outside the HAS with a handful of "noddy caps" watching, and feeling, the mighty Toom head Eastwards.

Almost immediately three Land Rover's screamed up the peri track from D dispersal. BENGO, JENGO, and SENGO alighted from their steeds and chorused "What the ^%&^$%'s happened?" At that point I suffered a complete vocabulary failure and relied instead on expletives to explain what had just happened.

Then there was the Jag shootdown.......but that's a different story!
:O

[Aileron Roll]

Would really love to hear the Jag shootdown story !

[johnfairr]

I was always intrigued by the item in the 228 OCU pamphlet/book/history/whoswho.. where it mentioned the combat victories of the generic F4. Loads of Migs from 'Nam, obviously, then odds and sods from other bush-fire conflicts by the recipients of US aid programmes, Israel primarily, though that is hardly a bush-fire; then the line, "1 x Jaguar".

Now I know we don't always see eye to eye with the garlic crunchers at the other end of the Waterloo Line, and PCness forbids me expressing an opinion about other users of the big cat, so I can only surmise that it must have been something of an own goal.

Any clues from the chaps in the know?

:ok:

[Impiger]

At the time we used to do no notice aircraft generation exercises to show Ivan we were ready for him. Hooter blows and you have 12 hours to get 70% of your aircraft fully serviceable and armed. At endex we often flew them off in armed state and did practice intercepts.

As a safety break the circuit breaker for the trigger circuit was pulled (it sits in the back cockpit down where the navigators right calf may be. Of course you're not supposed to make the master arm live or select the weapon or pull the trigger either.

Mighty F4 traps unsuspecting Jag mate on recovery to Bruggen. Winds in behind him and the training takes over: master arm live, sidewinder selected, lovely loud growl in the headset (shows missile acquisition, and trigger pulled.

Woosh.... Fox 2 kill. Circuit breaker must have been wobbly 'cos the navigator maintains to this day it was out.

Court Martial gave them a mild slapping mainly because the regulations were in a shambles and the defence (think it was John Smith later leader of the Labour Party) said how could they be expected to work with such poor documentation.

Bottom line is you teach a man to be a fighter pilot don't be surprised when he acts like one!

The F4 later became the gate guard at Stornoway of all places!:ok:

[ACW599]

What a much-missed sight and sound. I'd sell my soul to the devil for one last look at an F-4J going down the local valley at Warp 9.

Anyone come across a guy called Dave Wildridge, with whom I was on UWAS in the early 1970s? Believe he wound up on the F-4 and subsequently gave up the RAF in favour of becoming Somebody's polo manager -- or so the grapevine said.

Please keep the stories coming.

John

[BEagle]

Went through Cranwell with Milo Wildpig! Good 'lad' to use the UWAS term of the day - not a 'gap'.

Last saw Wildpig at Kidlington a fair few years ago now when he was a civil FI teaching baby airliner-drivers.

Definitely one of the characters of the time!

[Akrotiri bad boy]

How could they be expected to work with such poor documentation?

I was very close to that F700 when Flt Lt:mad: signed for 4 sparrows, 4 'winders, and 1000 in the can. I was closer still to the scorch marks when Flt Lt:mad: brought back just 3 'winders.

As for the excuses, it wasn't aircrew's finest moment when it came to pointing the finger. Could it just possibly have been that old sloppy link between seat and stick that failed?:E

[ACW599]

Milo Wildpig -- that brings back memories. Actually he and a chap called Dennis Harkin were responsible for the whole lads/gaps thing, which I believe is still going strong. Happy days, and the b*g*er still owes me 200 fags and a tenner.

If you ever see him, ask him how the undersigned got his "Bring 20 Tarts to a Party", "Major B*llocking from the Boss" and "Upset the SDO" ticks on the Lads Progess Chart simultaneously . . .

John

[BEagle]

Den H - another good 'lad'. But he went grey prematurely after the pressures of a RAFG Jag tour.....

Milo's tales of 'Thumper', his 'magic trousers' and how Superthick pinched the UWAS boss's 1800 had us in hysterics during groundschool....!!

[LOMCEVAK]

December 1983, Operation Pulsator (support of Beirut), Buccaneer and Phantom detchments operating from Akrotiri. Phantom squadron change from 43 to 56. Joint dining-in night between Bucc det and Phan det to say farewell to 43.

So, we (the Bucc det) decided to present 43 with a trophy. "Fighting Cocks" (in the avian sense) were not easy to come by so we purchased a live chicken from "Kris Kebab" restaurant for £1. The Bucc det commander played the bagpipes and so the chicken was duly piped in at the dinner on a silver salver under a large silver dome. Once it had been presented to OC Phan det, we expected some animal from 43 to decapitate it. But no, the chicken became the guest of honour and spent the rest of the evening strutting around the tables cr**ping everywhere. Usual food and drink throwing and vomitting, and a good night was had by all.

Next morning the PMC (a Wing Commander dentist!) went into breakfast and exploded at the "state" of the dining room, immediately phoning the Station Commander, Group Captain John Willis. The staish then summoned OC Bucc det and OC Phan det for a viewing of the dining room, along with the PMC. He surveyed the room and calmly said "What mess, PMC? Looks to me like the boys had a good time". He then summoned the detachment commanders to his office and apologised for the behaviour of his PMC! I was very pleased that JW made 4 star - a real gent.

The chicken became the Phan det mascot and lived in a drying room in one of the blocks. However, after about a month it disappeared, and we suspect that "Kris" had stolen back a now very well fed chicken for a few kebabs.

The final 43 Sqn sortie of their det was a Friday lunchtime push with 5 F4s defending the airfield against 4 attacking Buccs. One F4 chasing a Bucc hit the beach at around 200 ft still supersonic, and it was pointed out to us that if we were calling it an airfield attack we should fly high enough for the bombs to fuse!

The days of real aircraft.........

[jimgriff]

Date: Mid 80's
Location : Northern end of the Dovey Loop TFA7 (Tal y Llyn Pass)

I was heading east(up the pass) sitting on my Honda 750 at traffic lights.

A "FULLY LOADED FOR BEAR" F4 comes through the top of the pass at 5 feet AGL and starts to level out and descend heading west towards the lake!! It is now level with the road and moving.

For some (silly) reason I flash my headlight at the fast approaching beast.

As she goes past, (about 25yards away) I see the nav looking at me and see him give a massive "V" with his white gloved hand!!

MAGIC.

I couldnt ride for smiling:D

[BEagle]

Ah - the fun of LLOLPIs! We used to take the odd pair from WTM across to Wales now and again for that sport. Ex-RAFG people like Tony-the-poof used to transit at low level which was a bit of a waste of time and fuel (though fun), sensible folk would go HI-LO-HI and get an extra PI out of it. Let down over Wales, then split for the runs. Great sport tearing about at low level round the hills and down the valleys with lots of afterburner use...

But the fun detectors eventually banned non-exercise LLOLPIs in the UK due to noise and fatigue. Fortunately I was on '10s by then!

[Akrotiri bad boy]

"AOC's commendation as crew save valuable aircraft"

So read the RAF News crca 1980. However Toom Town News had a source closer to the action.
A crew had been down south to visit Uncle Sam, whilst there they had taken advantage of the fantastic deals on offer at the PX. Upon returning they decided to do a few touch & go's. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to the crew, one "touch" resulted in the aircraft snagging the RHAG. Reheat engaged as per normal but this time the aircraft seemed a bit sluggish. Tower informed the crew that a cable appeared to be hanging from the rear of the aircraft. At this point the crew were faced with the viable proposition of gaining a Martin Baker tie. Decision made to stay with the aircraft, so the mighty Toom continued its circuit in full reheat with a 50 metre length of steel cable hanging out the back scattering Pembrokes in its wake. Crew performed perfect landing and halted at runway end. First vehicle to reach the aircraft was the groundcrew "popemobile" tractor which drew up on the R/H side as the emergency servs, Stn Cmdr, et al arrived on the L/H. Nav handed down to ground crew one Bang & Olufsen music centre, (you know, the big one that sits neatly on your lap and rests between the side panels and the cockpit sills), then hopped out the other side to a rapturous welcome.

Payment received in due course with thanks to Messrs Grolsch & Dortmunder.:D

[soddim]

Got to keep posting here until the thread gets the sticky status it deserves!

I have memories of a sharp F4 QWI student navigator back in circa '70 who had remembered well the rule that no kills counted in the combat phase unless they were subsequently confirmed by film. Well, on the first engagement they claimed a kill and disengaged with a little negative G that resulted in a double Hyd fail - with no control they immediately ejected. Their jet obviously recovered at least one system because it flew around for some 18 minutes before impacting the sea not far from where they were plucked out of the water by the rescue chopper. When dropped later at Coningsby, the Navigator retrieved a very wet radar film cassette from his immersion suit pocket and slapped it in my hand claiming "There's my kill".

Good one Jack

[overstress]

The unfortunate pilot in the splashjag incident later taught me to fly the F3 T******. What a nice chap he is, inexplicably still a Flt Lt though!

[johnfairr]

Overstress,

Totally agree; he was a fine chap and a very good pilot. Flew with him once on the F4 OCU and knew the nav as well from a previous sqn at ISL.

An apocryphal story from that day was that when they returned to the mess for a much-needed sharpener or three after claiming their kill, there was a free barrel on in the bar. When enquiring as to the reason for this largess, said donor of barrel said "Oh it's on me, I've just joined 'The Caterpillar Club'". Crew riposte is not of printable sort!

[soddim]

Another apocryphal tale 'circa 69 when the engines were not lasting 5 minutes came from Jim McRoberts RIP who was one of several instructors grounded that day until serviceability improved.

"You know, for years I thought I was getting the *hitty end of the stick but now they've taken the stick away!"

Might be relevant to a few more aircrew soon, sadly.

[A2QFI]

Bob Prest does/did fly for Gulf Air. When in SOAF (now RAFO) he flew Jaguars, not Strikies. He ejected from a Jaguar in circumstances I will not discuss and was dragged a long way across the desert, on which he scraped large quantites of his flying kit and skin. When it re-grew it was rather pink and we put him on a diet of drinking chocolate and the occasional Guiness, to restore the proper colour. If any of you have seen John Walmsley's excellent photo history of the F4 OCU you may recall that at the bottom of each page there was an extract from the 'Line Book'. IMHO the best one related to an US Marine major who turned up for AOCs (as it was then called) in full uniform and medals; one nav was heard to say to another "Look out, here comes Magnetic North"! Happy days, apart from Bill and Doctor Death! I also have an excellent story about Al Vosloo if anyone wants it posted? Relates to the use of Service telephones to make calls home when delayed at work night flying etc.

[soddim]

Come on, A2QFI, let's have the story on big Al.

I think you could have been a bit unkind lumping Doctor Death with Bas*ard Bill - he showed lots of loyalty downwards even if he seldom appeared to watch the arrows in their Gnats. Rumour was that he evaluated the Gnat and wrote that it would never be a good formation aircraft! Well, to err is human.

[johnfairr]

A number of threads on this outstanding web-site run to 30+ pages, each one full of first-rate prose and not a little humour. Some of the smaller threads have equally gripping stories as well as current situations where information or experiences are requested.

The excellent Vulcan thread started by BEagle is a prime example, the 1 Group Dining-In Night had me in stitches from page one, the Canberra thread made me recall my first flight in an RAF jet and this one, the F4, has filled in a few blanks in my memory. There are still some gaps in it, though.

ABIW and SPHLC are two contributors who have a future assured when they hang up their blue-suits, and the husband of the author of "Married to Albert" must be particularly chuffed, not least for the fact that Jilly Cooper is mentioned in the same breath. Not sure that follows, but you get my drift.

I know that Archimedes has, at the behest of a BBC lady, started to pull together the history of the Vulcan. This can only be a good thing, but what nags at me, is that there must be an awful lot more that can be brought forward.

I guess this is really a plea to the moderators to put in place some kind of catch-all that will allow some of the best and funniest contributions to be collected and mayhap to be printed for the benefit of, say the RAF Benevolent Fund. I would willingly pay money to read them in a more relaxed environment, rather than screw my aging eyes up to the screen.

I have no idea of the laws of copyright, the evidence of hearsay, the libel/slander actions that may take place - all I know is that this is the best value web-site that I have ever encountered!

My apologies if this has been mooted before, but with all the bad press from the Treasury about defence cuts, allied to Teflon-Tone indiscriminately committing our Forces to "Wars'R'Us" this might be a way of raising awareness of just what HM Forces have done, and are still doing, despite the best efforts of the un-Civil Servants of MoD.

[Dave Roome]

A2QFI - don't ever say 'John Walmsley's history of 228 OCU' - it was produced by Gordoon Moulds, who later produced a similarly excellent book on 226 OCU when it operated the mighty Lightning.

Gordon was laid up after ejecting from the aircraft in which Dave Nelson died (I was alongside as it happened) and it formed the start of his considerable fundraising for charity, for which he was rightly awarded the MBE

[STANDTO]

St Athan - summer of '87

I've mentioned it before, but the mighty beast appearing from between the hangars, then standing on its tail on full burner, in a clear blue sky, all the way to 23000 feet, then off to Germany, still sticks firmly in my mind.

Cranwell, March 1987

I also remember, one cold march evening, having been put on restrictions for something pretty bad ( didn't dust behind the 'u' bend on my sink before brasso, I think) I was stood out on the front of College Hall, with some other recidivists. A Phantom came in from the right, lit his burners, then powered away into the dark, night sky.

In union, all we could say was "Oooh!"

That was the first time I actually saw those funny little pulses in a reheat exhaust for real. Up until then, I had always presumed them to be a trick of the camera.

The stories of these beasts up near 100,000 feet make remarkable reading too.

Great, proper aircraft. Sky much duller with its passing. Are there any flying anywhere at all anymore. Surely Mike Beachyhead has one lined up?
:ok:

[Chris Kebab]

F-4s; Cranwell.

Someone must have got "that" MJ/PW vid posted as an mpeg somewhere.

Surely.....

[BEagle]

Saw it at the Flying Supervisors' Course - lowest measured height was 72 ft!

But the lowest I saw was a mates-in-confidence video which one of the guys had at the EWO course of a 1312 Flt Phantom 'saying hello' to Alice!

[Smoketoomuch]

http://www.flyandfight.com/images/lowflyf4the-shop.jpg

[SirToppamHat]

Ah yes Beagle, that would be the only ever attempted landing at Alice by a fixed wing ac!

Watched a few 'measles', low and slow was always most spectacular for those on the ground, but when a Phantom disappears from sight sinking rapidly below the edge of the hill, whilst still nose up, it is a huge relief to then see it recover and pull away (alledgedly!).

[A2QFI]

Sorry if I have offended anyone by saying that John Walmsley put together the F-4 photo book. I understood that, when the OCU was disbanded at Leuchars and at short notice, the photo record was put together, sponsored by BAe, and that JW was the man who pulled it together. If someone else was responsible I apologise.

The Al Vosloo story (briefly) was that aircrew were not permitted to make calls to home from work (even if they paid the cost of the call) as OC Elec Eng said that his staff weren't established to fill in chits for officer's mess bils etc. One was also not allowed to go to the Mess in flying kit to make a call from the payphone there and getting out of a goon suit to go to the mess to tell one's wife one was going to be late for dinner and then get back into it was a pain.

The off station call out system involved 2 officers (one of them the great Vosloo) being telephoned by Ops and told to initiate a call out; these 2 then rang 2 more and thus the word got round. One morning at about 0200 Vos got a call saying "Initiate call out - Exercise Dimwit" or whatever. He replied "S*d off, this is a private telephone and I don't take Service calls on it" - unplugged it from the socket and went back to sleep. Half the aircrew on the base came in at the normal time and were thus about 5 hours late for the exercise! What a pity, what a shame!

[Dark Helmet]

OK, this is my longest post to date!

The F4 was my first aircraft after passing out of Halton as a young LAC Rigger in 1977. I was posted to 23 Sqn which was then 'boltholed' at RAF Wethersfield from Wattisham. It was, obviously, my first taste of real aircraft maintenance, flight line servicing and squadron life. And I couldn't have picked a better aircraft or squadron to cut my teeth on.
Everything that I now take for granted I learnt during my time on the F4.
I learnt strange words like: Houchin, Liney, OTR, Fairies, Plumbers, Sooties, Growbags, Koch, 'Leckies, Squawk Box, Wobbly Orange, Jammer, QRA, TACEVAL, MAXEVAL... the list is endless, but you get my drift.

I learnt all about detachment rules, how to speed-eat (especially at supper time), how to fit a drag chute and not catch my nipple in the door whilst trying to close the bl**dy door and pull the T-handle at the same time, how to put out a starter fire with just my woolly-hat, how to free a stuck arrestor hook during a crew-in with just a marshalling bat (very hot and dodgy!), how to stamp rounds into the links ready for loading the gun (not my trade but everybody seemed to join in especially during APC), again the list is endless.

I remember sitting around outside the line hut during summer air defence exercises waiting for the line sgt to shout scramble, and then running like mad to get to the aircraft first. During one of these at Wethersfield I seem to remember being passed by a pilot or navigator on a bike. 'What a good idea', I thought, until his PEC got caught in the rear wheel and he fell off in a crumpled heap. I didn't know whether to stop and help or continue running to my aircraft...I continued running!

23 sqn also gave me my first taste of QRA. There wasn't much in the way of entertainment then, certainly no video games or the like, so we played Uckers for hours interspersed with setting fire to people who had made the mistake of falling asleep! You were also almost guaranteed at least one live scramble to make it all worthwhile. At first I thought these scramble starts were just sheer panic but slowly (after getting the hang of them) I realised that they were well organised panics and everyone had their own part to play. This didn't stop us from (at least) once sending off Q1 with all the Noddy caps still on though. It took an awful lot of strength to pull them off after the sortie!

I remember my first APC detachment in the Med, it was hot, hard, non-stop work and there seemed to be a never ending queue of Phantoms waiting to be OTR'd.

I also learnt the noble art of riggering on the Phantom. I learnt that drilled out rivet tails, if not retrieved from within the flaps or ailerons make a lot of messy dents in the skin when they vibrate and bang around at Mach 2!
I learnt that the rear canopy will jettison if you forget to bypass one of the cartridges during canopy jettison checks. It makes an impressive bang and goes an even more impressive long way as well! I learnt how to wire-lock whilst hanging upside down, how to drill and easy-out stuck screws, how to leap up on to the wing using the Fletcher tank, how to hang on to the folded outer wing in the wind and the rain without dropping it onto the heads of my fellow riggers below. I learnt so many things and got to know the F4 inside out.

It was a strong ac and took a lot of punishment. I also think it was the noisiest although the Tornado intake noise is quite bad. I can recall being on the outside during reheat engine runs and feeling my body organs move. Your 'mates' would try to push your ear defenders against the fuselage so that your brain would physically vibrate in your skull! If it was during the evening or night we would stand behind the blast deflector vanes on the sheepdip and watch the reheat light up, it was a fantastic sight!

It was somewhere amongst all this that I realised that I had definitely made the right decision when I walked into the CIO.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

Those are just a few of my memories of the Phantom and I hope I never lose them.

[soddim]

Interesting post, Dark Helmet. Didn't realise in all those years I flew the Toom how much enjoyment the groundcrew got out of the job - I always got the impression that it was a bitch to service but perhaps that was the stock excuse for late rectification work!

It was certainly a challenging aircraft to fly well in all its' roles and air-to-air with the fixed sight in the C model was a classic case where only seaman's eye worked although the stick and rudders had to be stirred a bit during the burst to guarantee a hit on the dart. Bombing, rocketing and strafe with the fixed depressable sight also needed lots of skill (and a bit of luck) and in those days a good score was more to do with the crew than the kit.

A radar that showed raw plots in relative velocity also gave the crew a challenge in interpretation. Todays' picture giving range, aspect and TCA leaves little excuse for screwing up an intercept.

A mans' aeroplane - sorry girls but you didn't fly Tooms.

[Dark Helmet]

Soddim,

It was a bitch to maintain but I didn't know any better at the time!
Come to think of it, all combat aircraft are.

[jimgriff]

Any seat (Martin Baker 7A1Mk3) stories/gossip or tales would be most welcome on the Ejection seat thread.
Thanks in anticipation!!
Jimgriff

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Right on Helmetman

Burnt hands from the stab feel probe; stabbed in the back by Sparrow fins; no knees in your trousers.... that reminds me of another story.

Cobra lineys were forever griefed by Wildenrath's RAF Admin folk, who took particular dislike to the lack of toe caps and worn through knees which were de "rigger" when most of your shift was spent running around the HAS on your knees.

One particular Admin SGT took up his case with the Cobra WOman. The WOman invited him to come along to APC at Akrotiri to find out just why Toom lineys have no toecaps on their shoes or knees in their trousers.

As the days progressed the Admin SGT began to grow a heart and threw himself into helping out on the line. Unfortunately many lineys had been on the end of the SGT's wrath and having jankered their way through the mess tin room etc were not quite ready to let bygones be bygones. The SGT insisted on helping load the gun with 1000 rounds. Now that's not an easy task for a fit young fella let alone a chap in his early '50's, particularly in the heat of the Med. Sarge sits himself down by the gun as shown by the liney and uses his feet to brace himself against it. He starts to wind the handle as the liney feeds the rounds in from the other side. Unfortunately this particular liney had a very big score to settle. As Sarge heaved on the winding handle the liney heaved back on the ammo belt until a loud popping sound was heard. This was not a mechanical pop, more an anatomical pop, as Sarge ruptured himself.

Endex for Sarge as he was medevac'd back to Wegberg.

Needless to say having no toecaps or raggedy knees was never quite the heinous crime it once was

.:D

[Wee Jock]

A man's aeroplane indeed but this girly managed to blag a lift in the back of one in 1981 - I was the 43(F) squadron ops girly and it was my last detachment to Akrotiri before I got promoted. My parachute drill consisted of watching several still-pi$$ed-from- the-night-before navs jumping off the table in the crew room. Then off Ian Dugmore, XT866 (subsequently crashed on approach at Leuchars, I got the blame for upending my handbag in the back) and I went. Burner climb in a clean-winger (even some of the navs hadn't done that, ooooh they were jealous!), PD to Larnaca, chased a Canberra around, went supersonic and then 600kts along the coast at a couple of feet. Over 20 years ago and I still recall it like it was yesterday. I spent 10 years at Leuchars/Coningsby and have loved F4s with a passion ever since. In fact I've just hung up my headset after 27 years as an air trafficker, and the last thing I did was take my F4 pin off my headset where it had resided for a long, long time. Definitely my favourite aircraft.

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Goatfec]

The said flypast of Alice on X-mas day 1988 was a warm-up session for the world land speed record holder. Powered naturally by Speys on both occasions

[BEagle]

And to think I sponsored DD and Thrust SSC to the tune of several hundred quid....!!

First bloke to achieve the LSR at > M1.0. B£oody amazing - and the unwashed genpub don't even know his name.

[maxburner]

I am not a nostalgia junkie and I definitely believe things have moved on since the mighty F4, mostly for the better, but the Phantom will be viewed rightly as a classic and a thoroughbred. In it's time with the RAF and RN it did nearly everything - recce, air defence, ground attack, strike and flying girlie ATCs around. It was tough, fast, carried a big payload and went a fair distance with it. When Tranche 2 Eurofighter finally makes it into service the RAF will get as versatile an aircraft as the F4, but not until then. I'll be way too old to fly fast jets by then.

I will never forget my frst F4 trip, out of Coningsby one cold, clear day. The jet was clean, we were airborne by the cable, went into a 70 degree climb and the earth dropped away from us. Magic. Out over the Wash, into an impromptu fight with some USAF F4s, and home with the 'mission over' light on. And they paid me for it!

I loved it, flew 3 tours in it, went all over the place in it and it got me home every time. It was a great jet.:E

Dark Helmet,

We were at Weathersfield at the same time. I was on 56 then, living in those huts in the bullpen. That was a nice summer, as I recall it.

[soddim]

Anybody remember the beginning of the FGR2 at Coningsby in 1968 when the ginger beers managed to set the operation up as a centralised servicing empire? I enjoyed witnessing the confrontation one happy hour between OC 6 Sqn and OC Eng. The chief ginger beer had the audacity to forcibly point out that he personally had set this system up and if OC 6 managed to change it to sqn servicing then he OC Eng would resign - he did and he did!

After that we no longer had to take dayglo canopeners to Akrotiri to stick on the tails to show everyone that we were a sqn.

[The_Baron]

Certainly do - was on 1 Course and can remember all the hassle of centalised servicing. Was glad to go to RAFG. On return Coningsby had returned to reality

[walesjr]

Wee Jock, was your F4 pin made out of an old Penny by a guy at Wainfleet?
The closest I got to an airborne toom was at Wainfleet when 78TFS used to do their range clear flypasts to check for hung ordnance. We used stand on the balcony of the old tower at approx 35 Feet AGL and try to check the underside of the aircraft.
We never did see the underside as they used to scream past at 420kts at the same level as us with the Pilot and WSO waving frantically.
Spent 3 Years at CGY having a ball, used to love working nights in the tower watching burner take-offs and nipping out to the caravan to watch cable engagements.

[soddim]

More nostalgia from the days of Olly Harvest in Akrotiri when OC U2s was boasting about the climb rate of his straight wing photocruisers. He got as far as claiming outrageous capabilities when I challenged him to a climbing contest the following morning at o'dark thirty. Because we had to wait on the threshold for his outriggers to be removed from the runway, we didn't get to barrel roll around him until 10.000ft - but that was enough to win the barrel of Keo he wagered.

Guess he learned not to confuse climb angle with climb rate!

[Dark Helmet]

Maxburner,
Yes, it was a glorious summer that year. I still have fond memories of sitting around outside the line hut under our -'borrowed' Greene King pub parasol and furniture! How we managed to get it and 4 of us all in the back of our Bedford CF during a supper run I will never know! Of course it was the company and the banter that made it special!

I do remember the bullpen as we had to move our F4s there for safe keeping every weekend.

[soddim]

Moderator,

Obviously you are not able to make a "sticky" out of all the aircraft types ppruners wish to vent their nostalgia on but how about this one - at least for a while. The sticky Victor thread was posted and made a sticky a while ago but it has less viewings and has not had a post since 4 April. The Phantom was our only frontline fighter for many years and our first successful multi-role aircraft since the Spitfire - go on, make an old man happy and give it "sticky" firsts for a while, at least.

[LOMCEVAK]

I believe that the engines for Thrust SSC came from the Boscombe Down Phantom XT 597, a pre-series F-4K. Not many individual engine units have been to M2.0 in the air and M1.0+ on the ground!

[Noah Zark.]

For a non-expert, would someone be kind enough to briefly explain the main differences in performance between the U.K.'s Spey-engined F-4's, and the J79 version, please?
Also, some decent U.K. Phantom piccies here > www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/Phantom.html

[BEagle]

The Spey Phantom, known in the late '60s as the 50:50 Phantom (but not by anyone in the RAF!), was suppoesd to use a domestic engine to offest the procurement costs. The Spey produced more thrust at low level and mud moving speeds, but the greater intake drag ruined its high speed and high Mach capability. However, it was bought primarily as a mud mover, not as an AD fighter.

When the putrid pussy came into service, the Phantom assumed an Air Defence role. The engines were far less robust than the reliable, almost bullet proof J79 - but good enough in the end.

The FG1 and FGR2 both had the Spey; FG1 was ex-Royal Navy and had no HF, no INS, folding wings and a slotted tailplane. FGR2 was the definitive RAF version.

In 1983-4 the RAF acquired a squadron of F-4Js from the desert scrapyard. At a time when other air forces were buying F16s and F18s, the US were astonished. "F-4s? - sure you don't mean F-14s?". They were tested and the 74 sqn crews converted to them at North Island, California and they were trailed home on OP TIGER TRAIL 1 to 5 in 1983-4 by VC10Ks operating out of Miramar. The trail I did was Miramar - Dayton Goose - UK; the F4s went via Wright-Patterson. At that time the VC10K wasn't cleared to pass JP-4 through the pods, so we had to pick up Jet-A1 from civil airports instead. The leg from Dayton/W-P to Goose was also my instrument rating test - that's the way we did things back then!

In RAF service, contrary to what many may think, the F4J was never termed the Phantom F3 - that was invented by the spotter magazines - it was the F4J(UK). They were painted a slightly different shade of blue/grey and often flown in the well-liked 'Bravo fit' with just a centreline tank instead of the usual Fletchers.

The crews liked them and 74(F) was a squadron which enjoyed tremendous esprit de corps; the F4J (or, even better, the F4S) was the Phantom the RAF should have had all along - instead of the most expensive, most powerful and slowest that was the FG1/FGR2!

[Chained to a desk]

Thanks everyone, for memories of the mighty 'Tomb', brought a smile to my face. I only managed half a tour on F4s, but it still managed to by turns terrify and stupify. Some scattered memories, in no particular order...

Northern QRA (when we had several), hooter going off at 5:45, somehow getting our sh*t in a sock and blasting off into a Scottish dawn after 6 minutes still tying our bootlaces...

Flying close enough to Russian ac to feel the prop vibration, and waving (!!) at the crewman positioning his giant box brownie before sliding across to the other side (to his great disapointment)...

5 day lock-in exercises, when you lived, breathed (and sometimes died) as a family, closer than most actual families. Checking in using comedy voices, or holding your nose - those who remember this know what I mean...

Being young and immortal in the most fantastic fighting machine ever built, alone and unafraid...

Being scared witless by the most fantastic fighting machine ever built, usually when it decided not to go where you wanted it to...

I could go on, and probably have too much already. Suffice to say, I feel privelaged to have flown F4s. On a completely unrelated subject, I don't like stickies - if a thread is as vibrant this one, it will stay high up the list anyway. However, an archive of favourite threads would be a good way to preserve the better prose and a book sounds like an awfully good idea. Gloria Finis.

[wub]

On the topic of the F-4Js recovered from the desert; I remember reading an engineering report which stated that when they were being made airworthy, an access panel on one of the aircraft was opened a 'petrified lizard' fell out. The senior engineering officer had added the comment that "since these aircraft were previously operated by the US Navy, no wonder the lizard was petrified, I'd be scared sh!tless myself!"

[Impiger]

BEagle old chap I know you won't mind a slight correction to your last thread.

Quote:

However, it was bought primarily as a mud mover, not as an AD fighter.

Not so. If you research the Defence White Papers of the day - as I had to once (won't bore you with the detail) you will find that the procurement decision for the F4 was for an air defence fighter. However, the cancellation of TSR2 left a capability gap which was then plugged by the F4 until Jaguar could enter Service. From the outset the intention was for the F4 to fill the air defence role in due course.

Great aircraft in either role - and as a recce bird too. More multi-role than Tornado ever was.

[soddim]

More multi-role indeed. However, the RAF in their wisdom turned it into a single-role AD fighter and made it irreversable by disconnecting and reallocating some of the pylon wiring. Now it appears the RAF have finally learned their lesson and are only interested in multi-role combat aircraft - makes sense if you only have a few to be able to use them in whatever is the priority role at the time.

[Impiger]

Having flown all 3 marks of F4 in RAF service I can attest that one advantage of the Spey models over the J79 was the downward cant of the exhaust. Thus when returning to Akronelli from yet another disappointing attempt to marmelise the 180 Kt banner it was possible to cut a wake in the Med by steaming along at oh Christ not many feet.

Prizes for the man who cut the longest wake. Nil points for hitting the surface as we suspect at least one poor sod did.

[victor two]

Can anyone out there verify a story I once heard about an US Navy F4 being prematurely shot off a carrier with its wings still in the folded position. I have no idea if that is possible (sounds unlikely) or how it could be unnoticed by all the deck crew who scramble under, over and about a carrier deck but maybe it happened. I have my doubts that it would even be controllable but I never flew anything like that.

Anyone heard anything like that ?

[johnfairr]

I remember back in the early 70s seeing a flight safety film on the subject of ejections. IIRC it was taken at McD's plant in St Louis where the camera crew had been set up to film the first (?) flight of the UK F4M. This was duly recorded and they kept rolling as there was another F4 about to get airborne on an airtest, Israeli-destined, I think.

Mighty F4 rolls, plugs in burners and rotates. And rotates. And rotates until it has zero horizontal speed and barely a few knots vertically. At this juncture the two bemused occupants opt to cut short their journey and return to mother earth courtesy of the ejection-seats. All the while the camera is recording the events, the F4 finally succumbs to gravity and crashes tail-first, still within the airfield boundary. The rear-seater makes his entry back to the ground not 20 feet from the camera! Stunning. The reason behind the incident was, I think, due to the tailplane not being connected properly to the return position after initial rotate. It had flown the porevious day and been checked out. I'm sure some of the F4 drivers here can explain the details...

This was followed by a quasi-weapons deployment shot, with US commentary along the lines of "...Here we are expecting to see the effects of the re-tard bomb at low level. What we see in actuality is the succesful use of the Mk blah-di-blah seats from two F4s..." The Phantoms came steaming in at low-level to take out a bridge somewhere, but unfortunately the retard bombs didn't function as per the manufacturers intent, exploding on impact just beneath the undersides of their deliverers. What a waste!

I also seem to remember an RAF F4 in Germany in 1974/5 taking off from Bruggen, in a rush to make a slot-time on the ranges, the primary a/c having gone u/s on the pan and the crew switching to the back-up. Guy in the tower, NBing the take-off, makes the classic call "Alpha 45, your wings are folding...." Not sure what the crew responded, as they were soon to be seen floating earthwards on the end of their parachutes whilst one of Aunty Betty's finest investments makes and undignified return whence it came.

Anyone got the full story?

:ok:

[Dark Helmet]

When I was at Wattisham I worked with two fellow Riggers whom were at Bruggen at the time of the wing folding incident. I seem to recall that only one outer wing folded; the other being correctly locked down.
In all the rush nobody spotted that the wing fold lock tell-tale flag was (obviously) still sticking up.
I believe that after this incident all the tell-tale flags were painted day-glo orange.

After hearing their tale I always gave the wing a huge waggle during BFs and TRs!

[Gainesy]

Wanna Fight?

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/170aaa47.jpg

(Crown Copyright)

[johnfairr]

That picture above must have been touched up by some clever software.... They've airbrushed out the kitchen-sink!!!

:D :D

[Chris Kebab]

...and for ten points where is the picture taken?

[treadigraph]

Bit of a guess... is it Torquay Chris? Or is my geography Fawlty...

[jimgriff]

I wonder if they knew they had a BL755 missing??:\

[treadigraph]

If it is Torquay, they are positioning for a second attack!

[Rhino power]

victor two, a US Navy F-4 did manage to get airborne with its wings folded, the jet in question was a VF-14 F-4B coded '112/AB'. The crew was Greg Schwalber and Bill Wood, apparently "unusual handling characteristics" drew their attention to the fact and after dumping all stores they made a safe shore landing!

Regards, RP

[ORAC]

I seem to recall an F4 out of CY which lost a wing outboard of the fold mechanism. They flew it around for a while and even slowed for a slow speed handling check to see if it might be possible to land it. Then the duty pilot in the tower suggested they see how it handled with the flaps down - which, being naive types, they did.

Loss of hydraulics was swiftly followed by a double ejection.......

Don't know about the F4 getting airborne with wings folded, but it happened several times in the Crusader. One pilot unloaded the aircraft and locked them down in the air, a second flew an abbreviated circuit and landed - wheels up. Obviously not his day.

[whowhenwhy]

Realise that I'm showing myself as a youngster, but my abiding memory of the Phantom is of being a spacey visiting Wildenwrath in the late 80s. Having been up all night waiting for the flight over from the UK and arriving, after a while (I'm sure it was Bruggen we flew into in those days), at Wildenwrath and having got my head down. We were all awoken by the most tremendous noise just behind us as the morning pair lifted into the sky at about 0830 local! Fantastic sight!

[victor two]

Rhino,

Thanks for the info on that navy F4. Talk about pioneering the use of the world's meatiest winglets! Love the Rhino title too. I had an ex flatmate (female) that my mates called the " White Rhino". Ended up changing the locks on her after she accused me of stealing her cat's food. I digress.

Thanks again for the info.

cheers

Vic

[Gainesy]

Chris K.
Scarborough, 41Sqn jet, its obvious really, yer just turn the pic over & its written on the back.:)

This one is Bruggen...

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/17Sqn_HookwireBruggen.jpg
Crown Copyright

[circle kay]

Re the FGR2 launching without the outter wing locked. Didn't the SSKC (it was that long ago) make a flight safety film out of the story with the actor who used to play Mr Bronson in Grange Hill as the chief?

[Maple 01]

Re the FGR2 launching without the outter wing locked. Didn't the SSKC (it was that long ago) make a flight safety film out of the story with the actor who used to play Mr Bronson in Grange Hill as the chief?

Yes, and Trevor 'Eddy Shoestring' Eve as one of our Knights of the Air, think it was shot on 41 Squadron, still available via SSVC at Chalfont I think

BTW Wasn't there a FS film about Harriers with Richard O'Sullivan?

Regards

-Nick

[Chris Kebab]

..you get the ten points Gainsey!

Have the mooning from an F-4 snaps ever appeared on PP?

[Akrotiri bad boy]

I remember the wing fold doings now. The FGR2 was in the main down to brute force ie two hairy ****** riggers would push the wing up to one very sticky footed rigger who would be leaning way out past a safe angle waiting to grab the tip and lift the whole thing past vertical. You have to appreciate that this operation, in fact the whole F4 thing, pre-dated the H&S at work Act. Lowering was the reverse, the most important aspect was to make sure that the sticky footed rigger's reach coincided with the hairy ****** riggers reach otherwise the wing would crash down with a horrendous thump (once "thumped down" on the Chief's head, but that's another story). To lock down you used a speedy to wind the mechanism over then "Excalibur" to wind in the little day-glo plug.

The matelots, and their FG1, didn't have the necessary ooomph and strength of wrist and instead relied on hydraulics.:p

[FL575]

In early 1974, I was the pilot of one of a pair of aircraft (not F4s) going on detachment to Tengah, Singapore. The old Tengah, with Singapore AF Hunters, RAAF Mirages, and RNZAF Bristol Freighters!
At Masira, in the Gulf, we met up with a formation of 4 aircraft also travelling to Tengah, a Nimrod and two Victor tankers supporting an F4 Phantom. We all arrived in Tengah on the same day. Later, during conversation over a pint in the ‘Swill’, we found out that the Phantom was from Boscombe Down, and it was there to carry out paint trials at high speed, for the Concorde.
After a couple of days, the Phantom appeared on the Flight Line but minus the normal pointed underwing tanks that it had flown in with. In their place were two specially prepared underwing tanks, that instead of having the pointed fronts, had chisel shaped upper and lower frontal surfaces, with about 6 facets, each at a slight angle to the other. These modified tanks were painted white, with Concorde paint, but because they were modified, they could not carry fuel.
The pilot of the Phantom was Commander in the Fleet Air Arm, going slightly grey, and the navigator was a youngish RAF Flight Lieutenant. For a few days they flew up over Malasia, but with only internal fuel, their sortie lengths were limited. After a couple of days, they came to our detachment and asked if we could help. It seemed that they really wanted to fly these tanks through quite heavy rain, and at quite a speed.
The next morning, my navigator and I were off the west coast of Malasia, when we saw a really big cumulous formation (it really was abig b****r), so, as arranged, we called up Singapore Flight Watch on the HF. They advised us that the Phantom would be getting airborne shortly, and could we keep an eye on the Cu and update the crew as they approached us. This we did.
After a short time the Phantom crew radioed us to say they were at FL410 and about to enter the Cu. We could almost hear the 'banzai' as the phantom pitched in and accelerated. After a minute or so we heard a faint voice calling to say they were recovering to Tengah, and could we follow them.
The Phantom landed at Tengah before us, but we parked on the pan adjacent to it. When we looked at it, we thought it looked a little ragged.
The front of both underwing tanks had split open, assuming the look of a pair of large forward facing white daffodils, and the perspex radome was missing from the front of the fuselage, so was most of the radar. The front of the fuselage was very plate shaped.
My nav and adjourned to the Swill, where we met up with the Phantom crew. The Commander had a gin in his hand and was admiring the aviation cartoons on the ceiling of the bar; the Flight Lieutenant was drinking a Tiger beer, but about a quarter of it had been spilt due to his rather shaky hand. He also had rather a glazed expression on his face. The Commander said that today’s sortie was a bit of a setback, but not to worry, they had some spare modified tanks, and had signalled Boscombe to send out a 'tin' nose for the Phantom. A little more beer was spilt.
The ‘tin nose’ duly arrived on the next VC10, and was fitted, along with some new ‘modified’ tanks. After a couple of days, the F4 was airborne again, following directions for another big Cu. The result was predictably similar. By now, we thought the pilot was definitely greyer, and we thought the navigator must be getting very thirsty, as most of his beer was going on the floor. Also his eyes were getting rather large and staring. They did a few more sorties, until they ran out of modified tanks, and then gave up. The entourage duly disappeared off to the west.

[Trumpet_trousers]

What about a WIWOL thread?..........

...............just a thought..........:D

[sangiovese.]

Maple 01

Yup correct on the Richard O'Sullivan vid. If I remember correctly, it was the missed call, no breakfast taxi onto the runway when not cleared sketch.

Remember Safety Catch (I think) too?:D

[soddim]

Here's a question for all the ex-FGR2 aircrew:

What was the significance of circuit breakers C2, G2 & L2?

[Geehovah]

Couldn't stay out of this one any longer. Oh the nostalgia! The "Raspberry Ripple" (Alcock and Browne), the Wildenrath barrier engagement and the hi fi story, Fox 2 on the Jaguar. Been there seen them all. Keep the stories coming and this has to make sticky!!!

[Box Office]

Does anyone remember Greg Mackinnon from phantom days? Would love to hear any stories.

[beardy]

Greg was a man, no less.

His sad demise from a heart attack was a sad loss to us all.

Box Office see your PM

[reynoldsno1]

Flt Lt :mad:

I bet he was still combing his hair as he filled in the F700 - liked combing his hair did Flt Lt :mad:

David Lean could have made a film about him....:E

[wiggy]

C2, G2, L2....
Darn it I've lurked for years but soddim you finally got me to log-on......sad thing is I don't know the answer but I do remember the question........
Not anything to do with "fagsart" is it?
wiggy

[BEagle]

wiggy? Not wiggy B*n**t, the ex-56(F) QWIN, perchance?

C2 G2 L2 - Stab Aug CBs?

[Magoodotcom]

I see the US Navy is using the 'Rhino' name for its F/A-18E/F Super Hornets so as not to mix them up with their older Hornet cousins.:suspect: :=

[wiggy]

BEagle
Sorry, not that Wiggy......

[Impiger]

Wiggy,

Are you the 892 Wiggy who having been fired of the cat in his mighty Toom had an engine failure and had to stay in the aircraft as the carrier went over the top? Understand this particular wiggy got back to his cabin to find his so-called mates trying on his uniforms! Enough to make anybody's hair fall out!!

[soddim]

Beagle

Good try - seem to remember that those were the three cct bkrs the Nav had to pull if one got a BLC caption with flaps up. That stopped the hot bleed air for the blown flaps in the FGR2 from cooking the parts that were meant to stay cool.

Used to carry a tool when I flew in the back of a two-sticker in case they needed extracting.

Wiggy

Reckon I must have known you when you could have answered that question.

[blaireau]

As far as I recall, no-one had to wait as the ship went over the top in the F4, although it certainly happened with the Vixen. It would only apply to a launch off the bow cat which was axial. (The waist was angled at about 8 degrees.)
I remember Jock Gunning, the Senior P, having an engine failure after accepting the launch and then jumping out shortly thereafter. About a 13 sec flight! Two years later, another SP had an engine problem shortly after the end of the cat stroke at night. He pressed the clear-wing button and was able to fly away OK and subsequently recover.
I believe that Wiggy is now running a hotel in South Wales after a good innings with Cathay.

[John Eacott]

Wasn't RN Wiggy's problem caused by a low level inverted incident in a Hunter, pre 899NAS Vixens? Seem to recall you couldn't tell whether he had his bone dome on or not when he was on the flight deck :)

Also the story of his two wigs (hairpieces), one for uniform (short back & sides), the other for runs ashore. When accosted by one senior officer and told to "get your haircut", promptly removed hat, then offending run ashore wig, and went on his way rejoicing....:ok:

[blaireau]

You're quite right John. He hit leader's slipstream at low level in a Hunter GA11 and got a close up inverted view of a Scottish hill. I believe the hair loss started about 3 months later

[Geehovah]

C2 G2 L2 - Stab Aug CBs?

Booster pump circuit breakers to stop reverse fuel transfer!!! The Groundschool chaps would have been proud!

:8

[meadowbank]

Identity of Wiggy still not established, though I'd like to suggest that he may have been the pilot who jettisoned a burning FGR2 whilst on 23 Sqn circa late 1980/early 81?

I have some nice piccies, including possibly the lowest F4 ever seen, if someone can explain how to include them in a post.

Would love to see the photographic results of flypasts at Mt Alice and Saunders Island too (just in case I was visible flying past in the background!). I've got a couple of shots of the late Mark Hanna visiting the latter whilst I was there on R&R. Unfortunately, they're on 35mm slide (must get them scanned).

For those 'just visiting', you might be interested to know that the FGR2 Flight Reference Cards show that a time to 30,000 ft could be achieved in a time of 1.1 minutes, covering 11 nm whilst burning 2730 lbs of fuel.

As for speed, whilst flying against the 'Aggressors' at Alconbury in 1981 I was one of a pair of FGR2s fighting a pair of F-5s and a mixed pair (one of each). My wingman and I (Stu T+9, who I bumped into at LGW earlier this year) decided that we would plunge headlong towards the centre of the ACMI range (to, according to the brief, receive our weapons) at Mach 1 point something, then turn round and rush back through again, shooting at anything we could whilst going b+lls out for home, at base height). As we started our second run through at M1.2 ish and at about 30,000 ft, I was only really watching the Mach meter, though I should have transferred my attention at some stage to KCAS (well, I'm no QFI!). Peak Mach No reached was M1.55 at 7,000 ft! I'll let a QFI work out the actual airspeed (OAT about -15C, QNH about 1000) but it was certainly a good deal higher than the 750 KCAS limit (though I seem to remember an 815 KCAS limit at about 13,000 ft). F-5 pilot tried to roll in behind me for Fox 2 shot but out of range (!) - said in debrief he'd never seen anything going so fast. Also saw M1.6 in level accel with drop tanks (had to throttle back to hold limit of 1.6), but never reached Mach 2.0 (waste of fuel really). Used to particularly enjoy Bucc affil over the sea and always tried to hang on to enough fuel to overtake one after shooting it. It was great to sail past a Bucc goin b+alls out at 620 kts, with 100 kts+ overtake.

Oh, and the scrambles from Wattisham for base defence against an inbound attack - most of the time spent in burner, not above about 2,000 ft and landing after about 15 mins. Ah, those were the days

[treadigraph]

Meadowbank,

Various info about posting pics on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128156) or PM me if you need any help/advice.

Key is to keep the pics nice and small (approx 640 x 480 pixels, and 72dpi).

Cheers

Treadders

[Man-on-the-fence]

Treadders

I concur with the size of picture but dpi is immaterial (sp?). But please keep the file size below about 80kb it makes them easier to download on dial up.

Most of the one s I post are 700pix wide by whatever the depth works out at and 50 - 70 kb.

Back to the thread.........

[Nostone]

Bob Prest.
Made a name for himself as a highly capable F4 pilot in the RAF. I often heard him referred to as a “natural” pilot, whatever that means. He also made a name for himself with his book. The powers that be only found out about it at the last minute but, fortunately, did not ban it and allowed it to be published after a rewrite to avoid any embarrassment to the innocent.
He then flew Jaguars for a Middle East air force where he was known as BCP. He had many claims to fame whilst there. The most famous, I suppose, when he ejected from the back seat, in an incipient spin, below 100 feet. The front seat pilot ejected even later and survived. Good old Martin Baker. There was a 40 knot wind blowing and Bob was dragged for over a kilometre across the stony desert. He was lucky to get out of that scrape.
He then became an airline captain with a major Middle East airline and is the only person I have heard of to go straight into the left seat of a big jet having never sat in the right hand seat of any other aircraft, ever. But that is another story.
He is starting a new job with a cargo outfit further east flying 744s.
Bob, perhaps you will blow the dust off your typewriter and give in to public demand.
Another person who should put pen to paper is R*ck Le*. I wish I had the film rights to his life story.

[maxburner]

Meadowbank,

I must have been on the same squadron as you, as I remember T+9 at Alconbury, and what a great time we all had fighting the aggressors. Great outfit (us and them). You'll remember Mac McCready, Nick Morgan, Willy Felger, Keith McRobb, etc I expect. Where we as good as we like to remember?;)

[smartman]

meadowbank

I seem to remember it being quite easy (in my Bucc) to prevent F4's getting off a Fox 1 0r 2 at low level? Good sport though.

[maxburner]

Smartman,

As I recall, the Fox 1 was incidental to the fun we had.:cool:

[blaireau]

I believe it goes along the lines of:
The older I get, the better I was...

[soddim]

The best thing about doing it in the F4 was that if it worked you had the satisfaction of knowing that at least part of the success was down to you.

Not like these computer driven machines we fight with nowadays!

[Impiger]

Couldn't agree more - While a skilled operator will get more out of an F3 than a numpty the numpty can still survive. In an F4 the numpties dropped out early.

Four tours F4 and 2 tours F3 - I reckon I could still make the old grey goose sing a sweeter tune than the fin!

As for Buccs being too low to kill there is some truth in that but I think you had to be below 56 feet to be really safe. Favoured trick was just to fly straight over the top with the gun spewing out 20mm at 6000 rounds per minute. Bullets don't worry about fuzing heights or guidance or chaff or decoys - so why do we keep taking the guns out of fighters?

Happy days - I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was:E

[soddim]

Quite right Impiger, you can't jam a bullet either.

[meadowbank]

SmartMan Oh they were certainly some fun sorties - much better fun against Bucc than Jag - something to do with that second set of eyes I guess. Of course, at least we always knew that you wouldn't be shooting back (other than knickers)! Those were the days!

[luke77]

Anyone remember the "Scottish Group Captain"?(OC RAF Leuchars)
It was a round of beer for the entire bar if you mentioned his name anywhere in the Air Force and, after over 2 tours at Leuchars, I was asked who he was...didn't know!!
:p

[BEagle]

Actually, although he was an unpleasant motherf*cker, he did at least kick arse down at Binnsworth and that helped the military accreditation for civil licences thing get going......

A good height, Impiger - nice digits.

About the only thing I could do on the F4 was air-to-air mit bullets. Chewed up the flag pretty well at APC, I did! And even savaged some East Coast range once with 52% and Griggles in the back. Then bounced Scratchdick on his Tac Check on the way home, catching them as planned in the frequency changing faff between Useless Radar and Neat - oooh, was revenge sweet or what!

[soddim]

Say what you like about the "Scottish Group Captain" but once he got promoted to really useful rank he was/is a star. His paperwork and staff work were pure genius and his dedication to the service and the task was beyond reproach. Shame his relationship with the sharp end was not so good but I don't think flying was really his forte. He is the living proof that you don't need to be a good fighter pilot to be a good staff officer.

[Impiger]

Courageous move Soddim!

He is of course now the Scottish Vice Chief - what was his name again BEags?

[Chris Kebab]

Have to concede that he did seemingly improve at Air rank.

But as a Wg Cdr he was a complete W***** and, in my humble opinion, an utter liability as a pilot.

[BEagle]

Sorry, Impers, can't quite remember.......;) ;)

[Gainesy]

I know, I know, its....

[meadowbank]

I can't believe people are saying nice things about Ba .... erm ... the Scottish Group Captain! Anyway, shouldn't we be speaing about the mighty F4 rather than people who weren't even very good at operating them (Nasty Nigel anyone)?

Did anybody ever see the Saunders Island photo gallery? Does anyone have any video footage from Mt Alice? Anyone care to talk about the F4 from Wattisham that hit the ground during a flypast and got back to base? Did anyone actually try dragging the hook through the sea? Anyone like to claim an altitude record? How about the highest accidental overG? Come on, don't be shy!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Seems reasonable to make this a sticky for a while - let us see what happens. ;)

[Impiger]

Altitude record......

I wasn't at the controls merely hanging on for grim death in the back when the clock finally stopped winding up at around 52,000 in a clean F4J(UK). Amazing how you don't realise that pressure breathing has kicked in when you're concentrating on what the fcuk the nose gunner thinks he's up to!:E

[blaireau]

I seem to recall 60K as the limit on VHL AI.

One day, at a much lower level after an engine air test, I went sight-seeing around the west of Scotland, and en route back to Leuchars very low in Glen Tay, with the bit between the teeth, a sudden very loud bang caught both of our attentions. No lights illuminated, and no handling difficulties were apparent, although on a slow speed check, it all seemed quite lively.

Taxiing in, the sailors were all pointing at the aircraft in curiosity and amusement which was explained when I climbed out. A large amount of metal in the form of tanks, pylons and dummy missiles was gorn. 6 o'clock 200 yards on the Tyndrum Hotel. Made the TV news etc. One of the looms had frayed firing all the ERU's.

Twice had runaway gun at Deci which caused concern, but no injuries.

Quels jours heureuses.

[maxburner]

I've seen 60,000 plus after a high speed run on completion of an op-shoot at Akrotiri. I was too stupid to realise why he beast and its AEA had a 50,000ft limit. I've also seen 825 indicated. Another woops.

A friend of mine saw what he though was an oil-slick off the Falklands. He went to investigate, and it turned out to be a flock of albatroses sitting on the water. They got airborne and he pulled an estimated 12 G to avoid them. The fletchers got bent, but the jet was back on the line a couple of days later after some checks. It was a tough bird.

[BEagle]

Did see rather a lot of IAS when pitching back against a GAF F-4.....as Impiger knows.

Also saw rather more AoA than IAS when going up looking back over my shoulder at one of Alconbury's finest trying to track me... Amazing how noisy the pedal shaker can be on such occasions. Select mil power, 19 units and wait - but she came out just fine! F-5 driver didn't get to chant "Atoll....Atoll" either!

[soddim]

Anybody remember the Robinson Loop? Used to teach it in the early days on 228 OCU until some dilligent chap looked carefully at the Release to Service. It was the school solution to min time 180 turns - if below 450kts one rolled rapidly to 135 deg bank angle in full burner and pulled 19 AOA until achieving 8.5G, then controlled bank angle with rudder maintaining 19AOA/8.5G until the reciprocal was reached. If above 450kts, one rolled to 45 deg bank and pulled 8.5G until approaching 19AOA. With skillful anticipation, one then overbanked with rudder using full burner to maintain 450/8.5G until the reciprocal was reached.

Rolling G limit greatly exceeded!

I blame Doctor Death!

[BEagle]

Which is probably why we had such weedy 'g' limits in the early '80s...

[soddim]

You're right, Beags, we used 'em all up.

[short&shapeless]

OK, sorry for a mere ex-Air Trafficker jumping in on your "good old days" stories but I thought I might share my abiding memory of the F4J at the hands of, I think, a certain Louie McQuade. It was at Wattisham during yet another TACEVAL and it led to one of the best quotes in "Feedback" I ever saw. Apologise for the length of this but I feel it needs a bit of scene-setting and I think it is worth it in the end

Wattisham is wet and cold and the F4 is on its way home from a diversion to Brize where it had gone after dropping his chute on our runway earlier in the day. He is coming home, minus chute with p**s poor brakes and not much poke from the engine.

Basically at Wattisham in the wet, the F4J landed and was under control by the mid-point or it was getting too late to try and get airborne again. We get word that he will take the approach end cable (cos he has no chute) and we are all set. With great timing as usual the sirens go off, the masks go on and Louie is on approach.

He comes over the threshold, plonks it down and sails over the approach cable with no apparent loss of momentum. Hmmmm, thinks us in the Tower before the Tower guy utters the line "I think you missed the cable". Biting his tongue, the cockpit response is "you're right, I will re-cycle the hook and take the PUAG" (portable arrestor gear at the mid-point of the runway). "Roger that" is the Tower controllers response as he leans over the desk to get a better view through his mask; joined by the rest of us displaying not a little amount of interest in the developing situation. The aircraft slows, marginally, and sails serenely over the PUAG stubbornly refusing to connect with it as it trundles on its way.

We have just passed the point of no return, there is not enough power or runway to get airborne and probably not enough brakes or runway to stop; interest is heightening in the Tower and I order "masks off" as we hit the 'Crash Phone'. Before we can stop him, the Tower controller informs the crew that "they missed the PUAG" and, through clenched teeth now, we are informed, with remarkable confidence that they will "re-cycle the hook once more and attempt to take the overrun cable". So the F4J trundles down the runway, slowing all the time but, you always felt, not quite quick enough and it is now being hotly pursued by 3 gleaming Red Fire Engines.

Despite re-cycling, the overrun cable is not troubled by the hook and the situation, already interesting in the cockpit, becomes a tad more serious as the lumbering F4J approaches the end of the runway, the Barrier and the overshoot with more than its fair share of momentum. [Apparently cockpit discussions now turn to the likely acquisition of a couple of Martin Baker ties but hands are kept firmly away from the handles for the moment]. Ever game, Mr McQuade steps a little heavier on the brakes, squeezing every last drop out of them whilst slowing the aircraft down at a remarkable rate.

Just when it looks as though this may fizzle out into just another exercise story the tale takes a dramatic turn, literally, as the aircraft decides enough is enough, breaks free from all attempts to stop it and gracefully pirouettes through 540 degrees to leave it still travelling down the runway but now facing the wrong direction. The atmosphere is now fever pitch in the tower, and I daresay it was a little gamey in the cockpit also. I will leave it to Feedback to close this; having given the details and got to the stage where the aircraft is careering backwards down the runway the article simply states: "Finding himself going backwards down the runway, the pilot coolly applied power and brought the aircraft to a gentle braking halt in the runway overshoot".

That night in the bar when being questioned as to why he stayed with aircraft and spurned the chance of a fancy tie, the response went along the lines of "one hand on the stick, the other on the throttle what am I going to pull the handle with, my d**k!!!". I can't remember who the back-seater was but I do recall he was a lot quieter than usual that night.

[hairyclameater]

Aaah spey Phantoms.... Abiding memories of airshow performances as a youngster mainly - partic the camo 43 & 111 birds in the 70s & 80s. Any ex display pilots out there?? Am slowly researching jet display flying in the 70s and would love to pick up any info - partic the routines flown.

just a couple of images so we all know what we're talking about!!!

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan180.jpg

http://http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan177.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan113.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan57.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan56.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan177.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan178.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan179.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan181.jpg

[blaireau]

Nice ones Hairyclam and thanks.

The F4K in the photo was my nominal cab and has my name on the side.

Brings back memories of the Yeovilton detachment rehearsing for Silver Jubilee. A huge Somerset pub-crawl.

[BEagle]

Yes - great piccies indeed. Especially like the 56(F) jet taking off!

Giant Zum'zett pub crawl? Did you visit Eli's at Huish Episcopi? Or the Volunteer at Seavington St Michael?

[blaireau]

If I recall correctly, Eli's was associated with Keith Rawlinson late of the FAA. Served superb scrumpy there.
After the final flypast rehearsal at Spithead, an epic crawl took place ending up into the small hours at the Wardroom. The real thing was rained off.

[victor two]

Just looking at the photos I noticed that some of the aircraft have a small rectangular horizontal stablisor type device attached to the top quarter of the fin and some aircraft do not. Anyone able to explain what is did and what models needed it? It looks like an after market addition to solve some aerodynamic quirk.

cheers

Vic

[hairyclameater]

It was indeed RWR, fitted to RAF & RN birds from '74. Think the last one to be fitted (to operational a/c - BAe & Mod test ships didnt get'em) was 1986.

Aah, having re-read victor twos post I believe you are referring to the ILS aerial, again fitted to RAF only birds from '75??

I know its not a photo forum but do you want more pix??

[johnfairr]

Definitely!!

JF

[hairyclameater]

OK ! Here goes! - more old timers....

First 3 slides, sorry about quality - just nostalgia really!

4 OCU machines in Sept 73
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan182.jpg

4 6sqn aircaft Sept 71
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan186.jpg

767 strutting their stuff, Biggin 1970
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan187.jpg

A rare bird, BAes test machine at Scampton 1989.
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan189.jpg

Fighting cock 1977
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan192.jpg

76 display ship - Ian McFayden as pilot
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan193.jpg

892 in drab weather
http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan194.jpg

[Impiger]

Hairyclamperson


You're right the horizontal aerials are the ILS and the boxy thing on top of the fin are the ARI 18228 RWR aerials. When delivered the FG1 and FGR2 had neither ILS nor RWR! The mod to provide both to the FGR2 took place at the same time, but the FG1s (particularly thoseon 892 Sqn RNAS) only got the RWR because the ILS went in the cockpit space where the internal wing fold was located. RN aircraft could fold the wings on pilot demand whereas the RAF had to get te groundcrew to do it.

[meadowbank]

Once had an unofficial competition in Deci with Stanley Sp**r to see who could get the best AOA:IAS ratio. We pulled up from battle formation into the vertical, let the F-4s slide backwards (what 150 kts limit?!) then went home to look at the results on the ACMI replay. Probably a limitation within the system somewhere but we both recorded 46 AOA and 23 kts! Have already posted my fastest speed, but also once reached (just!) 70,000 ft in an F-4F. POulled up from 32,000 doing M1.85, cancelled burners at about 58,000 and was fully unloaded (stick fully forward for non-drivers) at less than 80 kts as we arced over the top! Stupid really, but the WSO and I decided to go for it as a one-off!

[wiggy]

meadowbank
:ok: on the ident....Dec 80 the date, XV414 was the aircraft.....

maxburner
Guess I was around as well at the time - anybody know where Nick Morgan is now?

[maxburner]

Wiggy,

PM for you.

[REF]

Hi Guys

My only experience of the MDD F-4 Phantom II was when I was a Cadet in the ATC. I was on an ATC camp at RAF Wattisham in September 1992, just after 56 Sqn disbanded and just before 74 Sqn did the same. I would have given anything to have flown one and it is definatly my favourite aircraft. The noise that it made was amazing, it just looked the part, like a real warplane, built for many role, and every role it did well.

If anyone has any pictures of the aircraft in 74 Sqn Colours I'd love to see them.

Richard

[Exmil]

Finally tempted to join PPrune after many years of anonymous surfing. Nice to recognise some familiar-sounding contributors. Credentials approx 2k F4 hours, plus some time in the spazjet. Interesting to see some dodgy pictures (250' MSD - not). If you're looking for photos there are plenty on the web, including brit stuff. If you want moving pictures you might try to track down (Bad) Manners - he produced some videos when 56 and 74 were at Wattisham.
Talking of altitude records (57k myself), laughed lots when I heard of an instructor calling VMC on top i.e. above 66k. ATC promptly replied: "Roger, radar control terminated, contact on ICF to re-enter controlled airspace". The next transmission was allegedly a pan due to double engine flame-out.

[Zoom]

I did a bit of untintentional reversing once. It was my last sortie on the squadron and I was in the back of a 2-sticker running an exchange pilot through an IRT profile - whoopy doo! I started to set the aircraft up for him to do the usual 'recovery from an unusual position' on instruments. I did a couple of rolls and generally flopped about a bit to disorientate him, and then pulled up into a 70 degree climb with the engines at idle. Speed was about 250 - admired the sunset - then 130 - admired more sunset - then 130, at which point I thought 'That's not right, speedo's stuck!' just as the speed dropped off the clock. No problem, but I decided that it wouldn't be fair to hand over control at this stage so I just centralised controls with a view to doing it all again but properly. The nose began to rise so I pushed the stick forward and the nose rose even faster into the vertical. With the stick fully forward the aircraft wasn't recovering but the nose was still rising, and then I noticed smoke drifting upwards out of the intakes. It dawned on me that we were now going backwards, which is why the elevator was operating in the opposite sense. I centralised controls and held very tight, muttering something like 'Hang on!' to the the other driver. The aircraft crashed over onto its back, down through the vertical until it was about 70 degrees nose up (again), then flopped down through the vertical again until upside down and horizontal-ish, and then pendulum-ed a few times through the downward vertical, with us being shaken like peas in a pod and crashing our heads against the windows. I thought 'How embarrassing - last sortie on the squadron and I'm about to eject!' Eventually the jet steadied out with its nose pointing at the North Sea, engines still going, the speed began to increase and I levelled off. Calmly I said 'You have control. What else would you like to do?' and then we went home - quietly.

I learned about flying (backwards) from that.

[maxburner]

Zoom,

Sounds like one of my landings!

[Exmil]

Neither of you fly for Eastern do you? On a business flight last week it felt like the guy in the RHS was using the F4 technique to lose a few knots on touchdown (or was that to trip off the INAS?).

If Dead Dog is around - the flames out of the intakes sounds familiar; remember the 4v4 F16 DACT on the Nth Sea ACMI? It wasn't the best way to avoid being gunned, but it worked.

[soddim]

Remember how impressive it was (well, it impressed the ***t out of me) to roll from landing, engage full burner and lift the flaps at the same time - both engines surged - vapour coming forwards out of both intakes - alternate max thrust/no thrust throwing crew back then forward in harness.

What a beast - glad it didn't bite too hard.

A machine that talked back - what a pleasure to fly and operate in.

[Exmil]

It did talk back (if it judders, use the rudders) but some numpties still ignored it. I did witness a rapid, oscillating, rotating descent (also known as a spin) due to some aileron input at high AoA and low speed. Said jet eventually made a recovery without popping the 'chute. Said driver received a very hard kick up the arse on dismount.

[meadowbank]

Exmil:

There are a couple of ex-F4 backseaters flying for Eastern - they must've watched a few and thought that was what was supposed to happen!

[soddim]

Nice piccies but, if you don't have broadband, it takes ages to open this page. Maybe after this post they will be on a preceding page!

Anybody remember this 228 OCU (64R Sqn) song - sung with feeling every Friday after a bad week to the tune of 'both sides now'.

Six o'clock the morning light
Is lost amidst the gloom of night
When I get up to brief the flight
That will not go this day

And at command they're doing fine
They don't come in 'till half past nine
To pass their problems down the line
Lest work should spoil their day

I've seen my studes from both sides now
From dim and thick and still somehow
It's all the dim ones I recall
They simply have no brains at all.

Wish I could remember the rest.

[blaireau]

Words written by staff nav Jim McRoberts, I think about 1971. Original music was written by Joan Collins and called "Both sides now."
One of Jim's sage Scottish sayings was:
"Flying's perfectly safe as long as you remember it's dangerous."

[johnfairr]

Blaireau,

I think there is a misprint in your post. Joni Mitchel wrote the words and music, Judi Collins had a hit with it initially, and Joan Collins sufffered from Leonard Rossiter-induced CAT when flying.....

:ok: :ok:

[Exmil]

Does anybody have any good examples of Phantom songs worth posting? It was great fun taking the p!** at H-hour.

There was one particuler series of events at Leuchars: a wheels up roller (spectacular - I was 100 yards away), accidental CL tank jettison, mid-air heavy petting with a canberra (night ECM) resulting in loss of tip tank. All of these were included in a song penned (I think) by Simpo and put to the tune of Four Wheels on My Wagon (no wheels on my Phantom, when there ought to be 3 etc). We ended up in a bit of a scuffle when some felt it was a bit too cutting.

Shame the F 4-1 culture is so dull - they can't even remember general banter stuff like "If I was a Jag Mate", "Don't Bend Down.." etc.

[BEagle]

The Jag mate saga started, so rumour hath it, during a 31 Sqn Cyprus det. It seems that someone with a bit too much Kokkinelli aboard swayed back to the blocks, mis-ID'd his pit and climbed into the wrong bed. Which was already occupied by the rightful snoozer...

This was before Pink Wednesday when poovery was most definitely a chucking-out offence in the mil. So the saga became more and more colourful as time went by and the 'Jag mate' rumour became more and more exaggerated. No opportunity was lost - the roof of the old Troodos OM bar which always had signed handprints in soot on it acquired a neat little pair of footprints in 'close line astern' captioned '31 (Fudge packing) Sqn', there was a 6 sqn reunion notice up in the OM foyer in Leuchars to which someone had added a new paragraph: "8. Gays welcome" - it went unnoticed for quite a while! Even tanker mates got in on the act, "Clear astern the centre" was often called in a somewhat camp voice to 31 sqn mates during AAR...

No doubt these days such banter would be pounced upon by the PC nazis as being discriminatory and likely to be construed as causing harassment to those of a particular bent.......sorry, 'persuasion'.

[Zoom]

By the time I heard this one it was Deci and definitely not a 'mis-ID'.....hmmmmmm! But it was 31 after all so it all made sense.

[BEagle]

Actually, Deci seems more likely - co-located ACMI and APC dets.

I'm pretty certain that it was a mis-ID'd pit - but not 100%! Anyway, never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour!

[BEagle]

I've no idea who the apocryphal 'Jag Mate' actually was - but if he was KIA in GW1, then of course my commiserations to his family and friends.

Never believed all the rumours - I thought it was all just heavy banter after mis-ID'ing his pit when under the affluence of incohol. It didn't really go to CM, did it??

[maxburner]

This is the Mighty F4 forum. No more talk of Poofters, please.

[meadowbank]

Hear hear Maxburner! No poofters!

I do remember these 2 little ditties:

Rolling down the runway,
Throttles open wide,
See the mighty Phantom -
It sways from side to side.
Airborne again, without a blip -
It's just one more aborted trip
But we're pressing on regardless
For the Wing Commander's AFC

OR

F-4Ms are rocket ships,
They are flown by red-hot ****s
And they make a mighty noise
RROOAARR!! [Sung with deep masculine voices]

Jaguars are Dinky toys,
They are flown by little boys
And they make a funny noise
Wheeeeeeee! [Sung with somewhat weedy high-pitched, preferably effeminate voices]

Now, pass the kokkinelli

[The_Baron]

Seem to remember composing another verse to the above:

Flying over Yorkshire at just 250 feet,
In our fighting battle four we know we're hard to beat,
The leader is lost without a doubt,
And the number three has his INAS out,
But we're pressing on regardless
for the WingCo's AFC.

Also remember (Appolgies to 1(F) Sqn)
(to the Beatles tune of 'When we are 64')

Today we saw them high in the sky,
Over Wainfleet range,
Rockets they were throwing high and wide,
Bombs were going way down the side
Nobody heeds them, nobody needs them
Poor old 54

[Trumpet_trousers]

How about:

How do you do f*ckin' gunnery,
I wish I new.......etc

[Exmil]

Ref the pit mis-ID I think we should ask a Goldstar guy for the story (the driver who was allegedly involved was KIA in GW1).

Another "words of one song to the tune of another" as Humphrey Littleton would say is Puff the Magic Dragon:

Puff the Canberra pilot
Wanted for to fly
He rolled off down the runway
And climbed into the sky
But just as he got airborne
He crashed back to the floor
He's just another victim
Of a Treble One F4.

Showing a bit of heritage there.

At the risk of telling boring warries perhaps we should start a "great/stupid things I have done/seen in a Phantom" line.

[BEagle]

There was a story going around when I was doing the OCU at Coningsby about some daft USMC dare concerning writing your initials on the outside of your F4 windscreen at some stage between take-off and landing....

To do that would mean getting the a/c down below the canopy limiting speed (was it something like 90 kts?), unstrapping, opening the canopy, scribbling your initials, clsoing the canopy again and strapping back in before the a/c departed......

Anyone else hear that?

[Chris Kebab]

Ah yes. Forgotten about that one.

A line apparently sufficed drawn with a service issue chinagraph!

[Zoom]

Don't forget to depressurize first, BEagle. I thought the canopy limit was 80kts but my F-4E manual says 'Canopy open, Ground Operation 60kts; Load Factor Not Applicable'!!! I don't have an RAF one. 60kts was, as you know, off the bottom of the clock by some 20kts! I'm sure some RAF types had emulated this feat in the early Coningsby days, presumably off a very low speed bunt. I don't think one needed to unstrap to do it, either, as I could certainly reach the front of the windshield .............. on the ground, of course.

[Chris Kebab]

I thinks the UK's finest exponent can now be found on a Virgin flight deck!

So did anyone here fly the (UK) F-4 solo? Didn't take the system that long to put the kybosh on that little spot of fun.

[Pontius Navigator]

F4-Jag shoot down - more

Heard a GAF pilot in either and Alpha Jet or Fiat was lining up for a shot on another Jag when he saw the 'winder leave the F4.

He broke off saying "Ah, ze RAF are playing for real today best I go home."

Impinger, you are right when you say the F4 was bought as a fighter not a bomber. It was the reason why I didn\'t finish the OCU. I couldn\'t hack 90s.

B*tard Bill (I quite liked him actually) and Super Nav were on the OCU at the time. The CGI was the infamous, and Bryant.

The OCU was aiming balls out at AD aircrew in contrast to the bombers down at Honnington. That I could have had two tours mud moving didn\'t count for ****.

I was visiting SHAPE before Christmas, the Scottish Group Captain was there getting his Christmas duty free (NEVER, what in an RAF Staff car)?

Anyway, we were taken hostage by a mad lothario with a gun. Quite exciting. Anyway we persuaded the Belgique police to detain us in the bar in case they needed to take a statement. Hours later, **** faced, we staggered next door to the motel. The Bwords\'s ADC was as ****-faced as the rest of us and missed her bosses start time the next morning. He gave her a right bollocks but we eventually managed to get word to him what a star she had been.

Services to Stella Artois and all that.

I think it was Jim McRoberts, and apologeies for adding a Canberry staory to this thread BUT . . .during confrontation in Malaysia, in a PR Canberra, they were tasked to do a low level run across an Indonesian airfield. The airfield was disused - oh yeah, why were they doing a recce - and there was no threat.

It was also at max range. The plan, a hi-lo-hi with about 20 miles low level and a climb as soon as they got the pics.

450k, 50 miles later, he was still calling Climb you bastard, climb.

[blaireau]

Seeing mention of the old song took me back a bit to just the sort of event that inspired it.
In the early 70's, life on 6Sqn was fairly idyllic. Based at Coningsby, flying about 30hrs month of DFGA on the F4M, it was a grown up Hunter squadron in atmosphere. Go in about 8'ish; check the UK Wx and then launch off somewhere suitable for low level simulated strikes. (Formal Met Brief was only attended by people who weren't flying.) Loads of great detachments. Apart from the two obligatory one month dets at Deci, there were many European visits and occasional weekend a/c to Bruggen. On top of this were the six week visits to Singapore and on one occasion on to Hong Kong. This involved most of the UK tanker force to get 6 a/c out there. (On the OCU course, I recall Mike Flynn's AAR briefing "It's like taking a running f*ck at a rolling doughnut....") Life was one long party.

We thought it was too good to last and indeed, that proved to be the case. The Magic Flying Circus was about to come to town.

The Wheels determined that by employing the Lepus flare, we would be able to carry out self-illuminated sea and ground attack. Joy was unconfined in the ranks.

Initial work-up was on illuminated ranges such as Theddlethorpe and Wainfleet and led in the initial instance to such exchanges as: Pilot "What's our dive angle now?" in a high pitched voice, followed by, Nav "We haven't got any dive angle".

As may be imagined, adrenaline flow was in inverse proportion to beer flow on a summer night. The only upside was the late start the next day.

Weapons employed were 20' freefall, 15' retard, and Sneb. All of this from an academic pattern.

Subsequent self-illuminated was practiced on Jurby, Salisbury Plain and Otterburn, eventually leading up to groups of 5 a/c. These comprised a leader with 3 flares on each inboard pylon, No 2 with 3 flares left side and Sneb on the right with bombs on the centre. The remaining 3 a/c had weapons on all three pylons. Outer pylons had SF tanks. Route was flown at 420kts 500' agl using radar prediction maps and worked OK if the height keeping was reasonably accurate.

The game was to make a 4G pull at a predetermined radar range from the target, releasing flares at 30, 35 and 40 degrees pitch angle. Immediate overbank and pull to kill the climb, reverse the turn, identify the target, reselect switches for weapon selected to drop, and dive on in. Thrilling stuff on a poor vis night with frequent ghosted flares in the orange goldfish bowl. Aircraft were in 2 mile radar trail and recovered in sequence onto an agreed heading and repeated the procedure until the flares were expended. Well, theoretically anyway. Trying to get the 5 a/c back into the correct sequence was a real challenge since the dive headings had probably been far from that briefed.

The really worrying thing that added to the excitement, was the increasingly common event of total attitude instrument failure in the F4M. The a/c theoretically had 3 independent systems, Inertial, AJB7 and MD1. On no occasion that I'm aware of, were the faults replicated on engineering investigation.

Anyway, during a 2 week det in the Ionian Sea attacking NATO boats, a further, and fatal incident occurred at Bruggen on GCA at night in cloud. The pilot was pulling back harder and harder to maintain wings level whilst in reality the a/c was banking. Pedal shaker, loss of control.......The pilot's canopy killed the Nav during the ejection sequence.

Pilots Union pressure got us off any more night attacks whilst investigation took place. Four nights of revelry in Naples ensued.

The night GA continued. The Squadron was assigned to Allied Command Europe as a specialist squadron. The boss got an MBE not an AFC and I went to the Navy.

Anyhow, that's how I remember it.

[soddim]

As you say, blaireau, life was just a long party. Remember the night in Limassol at the Romantic Bar when we dined out half the squadron who were leaving mid-detachment to form the first Germany sqns? As I recall it there was an ADEX at dawn the next day and by the time we got back to Akronelli it was far to late to go to bed so we just changed and briefed - our leader changed the callsign from "Red" to "Redeye", which was far more appropriate and we launched on time.

That was the occasion when one of our F4s attacked Gata radar head so low that the stn cdr who was on the roof with our sqn cdr turned to our boss and asked who was flying the now departing aircraft. "Aircraft" said the boss, "what aircraft?". Good man H-Smith.

[blaireau]

Ah yes Soddim. The Cyprus detachment. Do you recall the scandal of the "crap in the hat"?
Check yr PMs

[soddim]

I certainly do - but if I remember correctly, that particular AEO got no more or less than he deserved! Checking PMs forthwith.

[FJJP]

Anybody got the definitive story on the incident when the Leu F4 clipped the Cranberry?

[keithl]

No-one's answering FJJP's question, so instead does anyone want to admit being in the F4 that appeared on my Cranberry's wingtip in Benbecula Range 30 sec from launching a Rapier!!??

Perhaps not...

[Exmil]

Keithl,
Who was doing what with a Rapier?!

[BEagle]

FJJP - F*cked up night PROFIT. Pure and simple.

Checking the elstrobes might have helped......allegedly!

[keithl]

Exmil Benpeculiar were about to launch a Rapier at me. Well, more properly at the Rushton target a mile or so behind me.
Imagine my surprise when a grey, AD F4 (Leuchars, I guess) pulled up from below on to my right wing.

We made some phone calls afterwards and got the impression it was somebody senior (would be, wouldn't it), but never reaaly chased it. Better things to do...

[meadowbank]

Perhaps it was the Scottish Group Captain? No, silly me, he didn't actually used to fly, did he!

[soddim]

And if he did he never made a successful intercept - even against the wrong target.

[meadowbank]

Must've been Supernav in the back, then :p

[Greek God]

Chris Kebab
Can I have another chop instead of the liver? !!!
Managed to get an unintentional 25 mins solo when my nav left & decided he would prefer tea & stickies with ein Fraulein in Area 2 a while ago. Bit noisy though a Cabrio Toomb!!
AAAAh those were the days
:-)

[Greek God]

Some from the archives
Visiting Alice
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v324/GreekG/F4Measles.jpg
The Road to Stanley, allegedly

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v324/GreekG/F4Stanley.jpg

Wish they all could be Caledonian!!
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v324/GreekG/F4Caledonean.jpg

LFA2 The Peheim Mast "Rotate Go"

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v324/GreekG/F4Area_2.jpg

[Prof Aviator]

'greek god' ????? - you have changed!

Someone was asking about songs - here\'s (a bit more) of a cleaner one, plenty more in a song book I have kept but not very clean, pc, or printable


ROLLING DOWN THE RUNWAY

ROLLING DOWN THE RUNWAY, THROTTLES OPEN WIDE
SEE THE MIGHTY PHANTOM SWAY FROM SIDE TO SIDE
AIR-BORNE AGAIN WITHOUT A BLIP
IT\'S JUST ONE MORE ABORTED TRIP
BUT WE\'RE PRESSING ON REGARDLESS
FOR THE WING COMMANDERS AFC

WENT TO EARLY BRIEFING, CLIMBED INTO THE KITE
OPENED UP THE THROTTLES AND ROARED INTO THE NIGHT
LEAVING THE FLAREPATH FAR BEHIND
IT\'S DARK OUTSIDE BUT WE DON\'T MIND
COS WE\'RE PRESSING ON REGARDLESS
FOR THE WING COMMANDERS AFC (AND BAR)

NOW THE WAR IS OVER WE\'VE REACHED THE PROMISED LAND
THE WING COMMANDER GREETS US AND SHAKES US BY THE HAND
"WELL DONE CHAPS I THANK YOU MEN - (Whilst holding nose)
I\'VE JUST RECEIVED BY B.E.M."
BUT WE\'RE PRESSING ON REGARDLESS
FOR THE WING COMMANDERS AFC

(ADDITIONAL VERSES)
ROLLING DOWN THE RUNWAY THROTTLES OPEN WIDE
SEE THE MIGHTY JAGUAR SWAY FROM SIDE TO SIDE
AIRBORNE AGAIN BUT ONLY JUST
IT\'S NOT MUCH FUN WITH F*** ALL THRUST
BUT THEY\'RE PRESSING ON REGARDLESS
FOR THE WING COMMANDERS AFC (AND BAR)

ROLLING DOWN THE RUNWAY THROTTLE OPEN WIDE
SEE THE MIGHTY FALCON SWAY FROM SIDE TO SIDE
AIRBORNE AGAIN WITH JUST 9 G
I WISH I HAD A NAV WITH ME
BUT I\'M PRESSING ON REGARDLESS
FOR THE WING COMMANDERS AFC



WHEN YOU\'RE A PILOT (When I\'m 64)

WHEN YOU\'RE A PILOT ON TREBLE ONE
YOU\'RE ON QRA
DUMPING ALL YOUR MISSILES IN THE FORTH OF TAY
YOU DON\'T NEED THEM
THROW THEM AWAY
YOU SIT ON YOUR BAR STOOL
DRINKING YOUR MILK
WE THINK YOU\'RE A BUNCH OF BUMS
NOBODY NEEDS YOU NOBODY HEEDS YOU
**** OFF TREBLE ONE, **** OFF TREBLE ONE

WHEN YOU\'RE A PILOT ON TREBLE ONE
YOU ARE ON DISPLAY
FLYING YOUR FORMATION IN ST ANDREWS CROSS
WHO AUTHORISED THIS
BEST ASK THE BOSS
MAKING A TURN NUMBER 2 MAKES A TWITCH
THEN YOUR WING TIPS GONE
THERE\'S A BIG LOAD OF SPRAY
AND YOU END IN THE BAY
SO **** OFF TREBLE ONE, **** OFF TREBLE ONE

WHEN YOU\'RE A PILOT ON 74
YOU FLY IN STAIGHT LINES
DRESSING UP IN ALL YOUR FANCY YANKEE KIT
WE DON\'T NEED YOU ,
YOU GIVE US THE SH*TS
YOU SIT ON YOUR BAR STOOL
DRINKING YOUR MILK
THEN FALL ON THE FLOOR
NOBODY NEEDS YOU, NOBODY HEEDS YOU
**** OFF 74, **** OFF 74

(31 Sqn verse omitted):mad:

Prof A

[Exmil]

Keithl - been away for few days; thanks for the answer. Could have been the aforementioned senior officer if '88-'90; sounds like the sort of thing that might have happened with him (I can speak from experience).

Greek God - your nav's surname didn't begin with Y did it? Close encounter with a Cranberry? More solo time than Valley F4 - Lungs completed successful test of furniture. If in doubt, vote with your hands! Nice piccies; I have seen similar (but much better) from Saunders Island - something to do with a hot running engine and copper on the leading blades.:}

[Trumpet_trousers]

...I well remember the wind-up on BFBS leading up to the 'MPA Open Day' in 1988 when the announcer said that not only were the Reds going to attend, but the BBMF were booked too!....
....The B*nnies/Nota's/Stilla's/Andy's must've loved that one!!:O

[spocla]

Greek God-long time no hear!.......how is it??
Spon;)

[meadowbank]

Thanks Greek God - just what I was looking for!

Now, does anyone else have any other pics taken at Alice or elsewhere (Byron, Kent, Pax Port Howard, etc)?

[RHINO]

Spon is that really you?

RHINO

Naaaaaargh!

[Kato747]

Can't believe I haven't caught this thread before..... going since March?

Enjoyed immensely being the only Yank at the 'Phantom Phinal Phling' Mess Do at Wattisham. Thanks to Gary Hewitt for dragging me over from TLP at Florennes.

Also, my everlasting thanks to Barry (OC56) and Tony B. at 56 for arranging me to reach 2K Phantom time just before you closed up shop in '92. Enjoyed the flights with Tony, Jack C. & DD - a real treat. USAF couldn't understand why I was upset hanging up my Phantom spurs just 3.5 hours short of deux mille .

Anyone have a line on Mac McCarten (sp?) long of "Ark" fame and DAW/AWC at Cranwell?

Have been looking for a decent copy of the 1st TAC video of "tactical" down Loch Ness edited by HONUS and Che, I believe. Some awesome inflight footage set to Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms".

Musical note from the last days of ZBU, sung to "Let it Snow"

Oh, the weather outside is frightful,
and we might have to deal with Eifel,
and the runway's kinda short,
ground abort, ground abort, ground abort.

Got really, really tired of closing up USAF Recce Sqns in Europe: had three - 17th TRS, 1stTRS, and 38th TRS

OH, BTW, personal best? 61,300+ ballistic after an FCF / Air Check mach run in W-177 off Charleston, SC in 1982.

[stuk]

I'm not, and never was anything to do with Phantoms but please excuse this interruption.
Were any of you lot amonsgt the Phantom chaps who used to fly over my house in Watton, near Eastern Radar, in the early 70s? The memsahib used to be attempting to put the first born to bed after his 9pm feed when one of your aircraft would wander in from the north east-ish, go over the Thetford battle area and drop some flashes which would go off with quite a bang. I believe there were supposed to be 6 but the odd occasion only 5 would go bang and leave the poor missus holding her breath waiting for the last one.
I of course would have been in the pub at Griston on the far side of the disused airfield watching you.

[johnfairr]

You and the missus were right, it probably was 6! The Squadron, that is, pioneering night GA in the F-4 early 70s. Blaireau gives a terrific description of it back on page 13 of the thread.

Good to see you took the right course of action when it came to sorting the juniour Stuks out!


:ok:

[soddim]

Not 6 - never used that area for night work. Had enough difficulty getting clearance to use lepus flares on Wainfleet and Otterburn. Curious that in both of those places where complaints could have been expected, there were none. Have to conclude that if you use 'pretty' parachute flares the public quite like it.

Maybe the flashes that went bang at Thetford were recce photoflashes?

Must say that in those days I would have preferred to also be in the pub at Griston - or another in lieu.

[Sadbloke]

Kato

I remember talking to a 'Colonial Cousin' at the final Brit F4 bash - did you have a bizillion hours F4 and were now consigned to flying tankers due a balls up in the USAF (or Reserve) ditching all your Mighty Steeds and deciding to make you airborne Gas stations (no offence Beags). I suspect from your username that any tanker hours were useful gaining access to Hostie-Land! As for ‘only Colonial’ – were there not lots in attendance? May be wrong as the end of Wattisham is mostly a vague haze!

[Prof Aviator]

A bit hazy myself but seem to remember several 'Phinal' bashes. The fine colonial fellows from the KC135 ANG came to the last mini tiger meet and, as you rightly say, had about 200 years experience of the F4 between them - I still have the tee shirt. I wasn't there for the last hanger bash (FI duty)- unless it was the one where the holding officer's car spontaneously combusted (again)- but I rememebr being told the Americans liked the floor show by the ladies folk group. The Brits chose that point to leave, obviously. Happy days.......once a Tiger etc

[Sadbloke]

Prof

Yer right – twas the Phinal ‘Tiger’ bash where the ANG shamed us with more ‘Thousand Hour’ F4 patches amongst the crew than we could raise on the sqn! Suspect Kato is talking of the ‘Dining In Night’ to say bye to the mighty Steed at which we flew over the pre drinks in Diamond Nine – seem to remember landing to dining in attired in No 5’s wuz under 30 mins! Not so long before we do the same for F4-1!!

[maxburner]

Can't help thinking that the F3 will fail to engender the sort of feelings associated with the F4, in spite of all the obvious advantages of the newer jet.

[dmanton300]

Please keep it going. As a lowly ex-precision machinist in the aerospace industry turned copper (don't spread it about on Jet Blast!) with an undying love for the F-4 this thread is like the best drug ever. I envy you one and all. . your crappest memories are the stuff of legend.. your best memories are sublime.

[soddim]

dmanton300,

By "lowly ex-precision machinist" I feel you do yourself a disservice - the F4 was one of the last of the precision machined fighters in the pure sense - none of the plastic and composites so evident in today's structures. It was probably the fact that the engineering was possible to understand and so basic and rugged that made it in every way a rewarding machine to fly. OK, there were 'black boxes' and a few plastic knobs and dials but when you climbed into it the cockpit felt like a real heavy engineering job built for large texans. I still have an outer wing locking pin that served for many years as a paperweight and it is a fine example of the machinists' skill.

Having flown the best fighters made in Britain from 1938 to the F3, I have to say the F4 ranks among the best and the people who shared that experience will probably agree.

[Dark Helmet]

dmanton300 and soddim

I have spoken in an earlier reply about my feelings for the F4. It was a horrible aircraft to work on but it was very strong!

There was nothing that couldn't be fixed with a pocket full of Jo-Bolts, a patch of L72 or titanium and a pack of Araldite!
I carried out my first pressurised area patch repair on an F4 (after an armourer had dropped a seat pan through the cockpit area outer skin!) using basic Riggering tools. It was great fun to do and I was really impressed when it passed a pressurisation test afterwards! (Good old PRC!)

I know from my experience on the Tornado that it is becoming increasingly more difficult to carry out any basic patching and fixing without specialist equipment and materials.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

The Toom certainly was a brute. I recall the delicate riggering equipment needed to change the cold air unit (R/H side, beneath fwd cockpit) included the following: jacking handle, sledgehammer, lashing tape, and a Land Rover. :uhoh:

[soddim]

Reminds me of the early mud moving days when the MJ4 loader was new tech to the armourers. The team had tried for ages to position the gun pod under the centreline without success when a very large armourer stepped forward and heaved it into place using his brute strength - so much for new technology!

[peterbuckstolemymeds]

My old man was Chief Tech at Leuchars in the sixties and was very fond of the Phantoms. Except "Juliet" which he used to claim was a complete lemon and was never out the hangar.

I believe someone told him late in his life that Juliet ended up in a museum near Edinburgh, don't know if that's true. Certainly seems like it was the right aircraft to retire early, if it's true.

[blaireau]

During a '75 cruise to Rio, where it was rumoured that the Sea Lords were trying to pursuade the Brazilians to buy our decrepit boat as a relacement for their even more decrepit vessel, we exercised with the Brazilian Navy. Other than the '77 Spithead Review, this was the greatest number of warships I ever saw in close proximity.
During one ADEX, a foul deck neccessitated one of our F4's diverting ashore to Bahia where it was to overnight with a minor snag. Funny thing that!
The boss asked me to pack a grip for Hungry Joe the Observer, a USN Exchange Officer, and also one of my cabin mates. (At that time all squadron members had nicknames from Catch 22). Hungry Joe by his own assessment was a snappy dresser in the Great Gatsby style, but by the assessment of others resembled an explosion in a theatrical costumiers.
Accordingly, I packed what I considered to be an ensemble in the worst possible taste. This included his white golf shoes, yellow full length socks, green tartan plus fours, blue and white striped shirt, purple bow tie and a royal blue suit jacket. This all went ashore with the ground party in an SAR chopper.
The following morning, HJ's F4 hooked on with the first recovery and out stepped a beaming HJ wearing this lot. According to the pilot, he had been delighted on receiving this combination and had worn it with considerable pride in the hotel.
We all had a good time in Rio, other than our Admiral (FOCAS) who never had a good time, but the ship remained unsold and was eventually scrapped in late '78.

[la calda]

Can someone tell me the exact time and date the first F4 for RAF service arrived here? I have memories as a kid of being taken to the runway at Leuchars to see it land. My recollection is sometime in 1967. Can't be any more specific than that, though I do remember it was on a Sunday afternoon as we'd just had our lunch. Up to then all we'd had were Lightnings to ogle, and the odd Whirlwind flying out over St Andrews to rescue stranded yachtsmen.

Whilst on the subject of memories, can anyone shed light on the record breaking flight Coningsby to Singapore by two F4s from, I think, 41 sqn. They took bags of post office first day covers as it was the first time that flight had been done non-stop. The logistics must have been incredible, seven refuellings is my memory (or did I just dream it all?!).

[johnfairr]

According to one of my books of words on the F4, the Phantom FGR2, first entered RAF squadron service with 6 Sqn, re-formed at Coningsby on 7 May 1969. Obviously there was an OCU formed prior to that (228).

The FG1 first entered RAF service when 43 Sqn re-formed at Leuchars on 1 Sep 69.

These are dates for entry into service, ie declared on the Battle Order, so there would have been much work-up performed before that which is probably when you saw them.

The FG1 OCU function was performed by 767 Naval Air Squadron at Yeovilton, who trained both RN and RAF crew for the FG1. This unit was formed on 14 Jan 1969 and disbanded in 1972. Any crew going to 43 after then had, in effect, two OCUs, one at Coningsby on the FGR2 and a conversion to the FG1 on the squadron at Leuchars.

Hope this helps

jf

[soddim]

The first FGR2 squadron was Shiny 6 and they took that identity early in 1969 from 6 Sqn Canberras during their OCU course to maintain the unbroken service record of 6 Squadron - looks like history is to repeat itself when 6 Jaguar Squadron moves to Coningsby, presumably to seamlessly become 6 Squadron with Typhoons.

I remember, I think, that 43 Squadron formed with FG1s just a little later at Leuchars, but it might have been earlier.

The non-stop Singapore trip was flown by 54 Squadron who then held the London-Singapore record for a few hours until British Airways (or was it BOAC then?) beat it the following day. They didn't need to go so far to stay within the dip clearance rules. Not sure how many refuellings they did but it was about 15 hours. I did the trip a much better way earlier than them, staging overnight in Kokinelli land, Dubai and Gan. Short range bladders most fighter pilots.

[blaireau]

Seem to recall it was about 15h 6m. The a/c flew in pairs and if memory serves, the two pilots were Harry Davidson and John Walmesley.

The non-stop was only done the once, and thereafter the journey was broken at either Dubai or Masirah. The legs were about 7.5-8 hrs.

First refuelling was overhead Coningsby to prove the system. Subsequent plugs were just north of Nice, overhead Malta, 200 west of Cyprus, Lake Van and then land. Continuing east, plugs were around Masirah, 500 east of Masirah, 500 west of Gan, 500 east of Gan and finally about 1.5 hrs before Tengah and the cold Tigers.

Needless to say, this was an epic planning exercise, particularly for the tankers of 55 and 57 Sqns who were prepositioning and highly critical in terms of performance out of the hot airfields. Mk I Victors were entertaining to watch as they took off out of Masirah. It took tankers to refuel tankers to get in position with enough fuel for us. Still, it was all good practice for the Falklands. It was only in later years I learned about Perf A.

I recall being led on the Dubai-Tengah leg by the CO who's Nav, aptly nick-named Pathfinder, was determined to veer well off to the north of track convinced of his navigational skills. Calls of "Close it up" from the leader were ignored. (My back seater was quite sharp). Eventually, they disappeared from sight. Some time later, we picked up the tanker on the Tacan air-to-air and duly RV'd for a prod. The Boss turned up a little later and took on more than 22000 lbs. Since the total capacity was little more than that, it can be assumed that his guages before plugging in did not make a pretty sight. It was only in later years that I learned about ETOPS.

[air-hag]

north of Nice, overhead Malta, 200 west of Cyprus, Lake Van and then land. Continuing east, plugs were around Masirah, 500 east of Masirah, 500 west of Gan, 500 east of Gan and finally about 1.5 hrs before Tengah and you still remember all that?

[la calda]

blaireau,

Do you remember surnames of the two Navs on the non stop? Did one begin with St.......?

.....and what happened to the First Day Covers?

[Exmil]

Prof and Sad et al,
(delay in joining debate due to hols)
There was a phinal hangar bash which was a wing do rather than tiger meet.

Every fighter squadron within a 200 mile radius of Wattisham was invited to a Tactics Discussion and Procedures Update (Thinly Disguised P1** Up). 56 QWIL lead the presentations with the latest theory of whistling line astern. This was based on day 5 of the war when all SPIII and AIM-9L had been used and we were left with Golfs for a-a. So... 4 x sqns of a/c, 1 mile astern, last man whistling over R/T. Attacking fighters would be forced to ripple down the package and roll in behind tail end charlie. When the whistling stops you know the back of the package has been reached and the next takes it up. With such a long train it would take so long to reach the front that some weapons would have been released on target.

We laughed a lot. Unfortuantely, the USAF missed the humour, gave a serious presentation and then got hauled on to stage to play with the flower arrangers. I have never seen a HAS empy so quickly!

I believe 56 won the piano burning comptetition (had to be passed through a car tyre first) - but then we did use a chainsaw.

Other phinal phling mess do involved more pianos - myself and a.n. other unfortunatley picked the newly retuned one rather than the old one bought for the purpose - and also had to explain to OC bogs and drains why the tarmac outside the mess was melted and the electrics not working. No. 5s and parts of body suffered minor burns due to a mid-air collision when leaping over said piano.

Big mess bill ,but great fun - never replicated on F4-1.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
As regards the brute strength of the F-4, I was told a story by an ex-USMC Sergeant, who had served on them, at land bases and afloat: the F-4 was doing night circuits at Navy Dallas when there was a loud bang and the bells and whistles came on. The pilot shut down the right-hand engine and ran through his emergency drills and made an uneventful landing. When the ground crew got to the aircraft, they were amazed to find the entire aft half of the right-hand engine gone, with a jagged hole where the afterburner used to be. Basically, everything aft of the combustion chamber was gone. Soon after, a local farmer called the base to ask if a large, battered,smoking "turbin" belonged to them. The aircraft was back on the line within a month.
As for people inadvertantly shedding the underwing loads, he also told of a Singaporean A-4 pilot, a senior man, who, whilst on detachment to the USMC, cleaned off all his racks by accident and tried to get his ground crew to fix it without the Marines copping on.
Pianos: he said that they flew well when launched off the waist catapult on the return sailing from Pacific duty.
regards
TDD

[SASless]

In a place far far away...called Chu Lai in Vietnam, whilst picking my nose waiting for the engineers to correct a technical fault on my Chinook....was engaged in watching the Marines landing their F-4's. One of the chappies answered the question...."How does a Marine fighter pilot know he has landed gear up?". The poor fellow made a beautiful landing...to realize the gear was still in the wells....put both engines into Afterburner....roared off the end of the runway northbound...initiated a very slight right hand turn towards the water....made it to what would have been a nice crosswind leg....continued the right hand roll for a bit...then two nice ejections with proper landings into the South China Sea. Seeing no Rescue aircraft heading towards the swimmers...we cranked our bird and rigged our rescue hoist. Being Army pilots...never having winched over open water...surely never having winched swimmers. Before it was over...the second swimmer was waving us off....but not to be deterred....we finally got the two of them up and back on dry land.

[soddim]

There are others who got luckier - gear up landings on the outboard wing tanks and even a touch and go on them followed by a normal gear down landing. The F4 was built like a brick outhouse but still flew like a fighter.

[Exmil]

I watched said wheels-up roller on the Fletchers from about 50 yds. Received a bolly from the WO at the time as I was supernumery officer on a practice parade - facing away towards the threshold outside Ark Royal hangar - and missed his command. Sounds similar to the USMC sequence without ejection: touched down, vapour in the tanks blew, burners lit, nozzles and r/h stab scraped before jet staggered airborne. Being towards the end of a dry Summer the 5 flame trails set fire to the South side of the airfield. Even with the remains of one tank folded up over the L/E, the answer was to drop the gear and hook, take the PUAG on the short runway and walk away from it. I hear it's a good way to get an exchange.

In another far away place... hit an albatross at about 480 kts. Put a big hole in the radome (which started to delaminate), trashed the radar, ruptured the hyds, and basically everything on the LHS stopped working. No problem with a low speed handling check and cable landing - major damage, but I bet it would have been worse in another jet.

[Zoom]

Saw an F-4E after it had gone through some trees at speed. Radome was peeled open like banana skin, windshield and canopy shattered, everything below wing level surgically removed, leading edges and underside nicely polished and branches wedged in the intakes and fin. The pilot needed an escort for the landing as he couldn't see out of the front, but the engines, gear, flaps and brakes worked just fine.

[flybe.com]

As someone who went through OASC 5 times on GD/P applications from '85 - 92, and failed every time as I possessed good pilot aptitude but lacked Commissioning qualities, I am both in awe, and green with envy at the experiences some of you guys had during your time on this awesome machine. This thread has been a truly magnificent read.

I will forever be sad at not having had such experiences, but I'm now in the left seat of a commercial airliner so I suppose it all worked out in the end.

Anyway, respect to you all, keep it coming. :ok:

[blaireau]

As previously mentioned, F4 life in the early 70's was a ball. A beautiful aircraft, fast cars, faster women and country pubs. Those were indeed the days.

Sometimes however, tragedy intervened, and on occasion it even brought humour in its wake- pun intended.

In '71 I shared a bachelor pad with a fellow 6Sqn colleague just outside Woodhall Spa. One winter day, he was leading a pair at low level in 2nm radar trail practising for the forthcoming night ground attack drama. Encountering white-out conditions near Carlisle, he executed the SOP escape manouevre of 30 degrees pich and full burner as winessed by the No 2 in trail. Shortly thereafter, he hit the top of Thack Moor at 550Kts wings level in a slight descent with full burner. This much I recall from the BOI which I attended since I had failed his IRT about a month previously. He passed the re-ride.

Being his "roomy", the flt cdr and I travelled up to see his parents. Their surprise at seeing us soon turned to horror as the BBC news they had just watched stated that next of kin had been informed.

It was as "effects officer" that I subsequently discovered from his personal papers that he was engaged to two girls. I knew the German one from a memorable detachment to Hopsten, but the Norwegian one came as a bit of a surprise. She turned out to be the sister-in-law of another 6Sqn pilot.

So which one did I decide in concert with the boss to invite to the full military funeral? Who would you have chosen?

As a postscript and graphic illustration that lightning can strike more than once, this tragic grieving family in short order lost another son in a road traffic accident, and then had their house severely damaged by the explosion at Flixborough chemical plant.

This has been another retro-thrill ride from Blaireau Enterprises.

[soddim]

I'm sure you kept it in the family and sent the invite to Norway - unless the German fiance had bigger boobs!

[Prof Aviator]

Flybe - 'lack of commisioning qualities'

Having had the luck to fly F4s towards the end of its Service career I can say that most of the other chaps on the jet also lacked commisioning qualities - the trick was to hide it till you got to the Sqn. If you had any, the junta soon sorted you out!!!

Best part of my career - even if it did nothing to advance it.....

Birdstrike dit: Also managed to hit Turkey Vulture (apparently but my big black bird recce a bit poor) at 600kts and 100 ft (ish) over MPA. Bird subsequently injested, diced, fried and spat out (and served in the deathstar curry) having changed the cockpit smell from oil to fish - made a nice change! Engine performed fine after a small cough and only after we landed did we realise the damage it had caused to the radome and engine bay. The jet was Cat 3 for 3 mths whilst a team from the UK were flown out to reskin it by hand - we had proper riggers then. The gingers also made us a fetching viking helmet from the engine nacelle, complete with bird dent battle damage - last seen in 'The Goose'. Jet went back to flying but don't think it ever got back to blighty as the last jets were scrapped out there.

Fine place FI - if you didn't get caught...........

Prof A

[SkidMX]

This is the 5th gathering of the masses.
The last 4 years have seen 100+ old Phantom Phliers at the TDPU in central London.
The format is simple... come to the pub anytime from lunchtime onwards, and leave...well, that's up to you!!

If you are interested in coming & are not already on my e-mail list ( 300+ are!) then please e-mail me back for details either via Pprune or direct to [email protected]

See you there!
Skid:ok:

[Impiger]

Exmil

Yup the pilot went on exchange and the navigator took much of the blame because it was a 2-stick aircraft and thus had undercarriage indicators in the back!

[johnfairr]

As regards your last post, I presume you are referring to the Abbey, the Bluebell and that hotel in Woodhall Spa. Great places for the odd beer or seven and the bends in the road back to the MQs or the mess were always a problem for me. I remember Cat 5ing a certain Navs' Volvo estate after a few beers, in my Austin A55, which dates all of us......

Also remember a few weddings that went well there in the 70s.

Nothing better than driving in from the Sleaford direction and seeing a 4-ship or a pair on the break and then getting to the mess as they were taxiing past, prior to happy hour. Great days, as you said....

:ok: ;) :ok:

[McC]

Any one got a link to a video of the Cranwell F4 flypast?

Pete Mcc

[PHANTOM PHAN]

For a day that went from sun to DARK SKIES and hail, this thread was enjoyable!

PHANTOMs were what inspired my heart into aviation. Regrettably, ISAHARA derailed it!

I got a special invite to an airshow at EDWARDS AFB in 70s from the THUNDERBIRDS when they used F-4Es.

And, because I did aviation photography in my free time, they brought me to the flight line to photograph #5 to prove that the paint job was faulty: it peeled off in some chunks enroute there from Nevada.

The one thing I was always curious about was the noise they made on approach: ROAR with grinding metal overtones.

Can anyone do a detail explanation?

Also, I was told, when I visited MUO and their RF-4s, that a full afterburner takeoff can use up ALL the fuel in the center and the wing tanks within 7 minutes. TRUE?
How long without using the A/Burner?

http://www.photovault.com/Link/Military/AirForce/Aircraft/Thunderbirds.html

Thanks, Alex

PS~ They kept the film, and the images I took later arent online.

I do have an image I would like to add to this post: its interesting..

Can you send me an email so I can send it to you, as I cant seem to do it myself?

[email protected]

[Skeleton]

Yup the pilot went on exchange and the navigator took much of the blame because it was a 2-stick aircraft and thus had undercarriage indicators in the back!

The pilot bit is true... the nav bit a little unfair. He was after all a student.

I remember that incident well because the Saturday morning after I was dragged in front of the BOI because it was deemed I had trained the caravan controller - (who froze)

The BOI to be fair were very good and the chap knew darn well he was speaking to someone whose only crime was to bother to fill out how many times in the log he had fired a red very when the person concerned was training.

I never did (and never will) forgive the SATCO concerned, but it did teach me that men in green suits are a breed apart, ask the green suits I worked for after that incident.

[Kato747]

SADBLOKE:

Sorry, I wasn't the "colonial brother" you mentioned flying tankers! Strictly an RF-4C driver ... but I was the only Yank present at the "do" I attended. 56 did, indeed, win the piano burning that night!!!

EXMIL:

Perhaps you also remember a small USAF contingent (6) from the 1st TRS at Alconbury showing for a "tete-a-tete" late '87 with 56? That mess dinner cost me my "IKE Jacket" white mess kit after a victorious run-in with a flaming mop competing in "mess table jousting"! The fire bucket helmet was the only thing which saved the moustache.

Anyone have email addys for Gary Hewitt, Tony Barmby, Mac MacCartin, Jack Christian (SP), or Andy Green...... or PTUI..... Nick Gilchrist (Harrier mate)??

PS: I was also the ONLY Yank stupid enough to stand in "silly mid off" at the AWC Staff/Student matches (before the move to B.P.) ....and survive..... caught 2 off my chest (hurt like buggery) ,but after 10 or so Pimm's, hardly hurt at all, til the next day.

[blaireau]

Abbey was always a favourite in the early 70's when it was run by a likeable rogue named Alfredo.
There was a place called The Lea Gate on the east side of the field run by a particularly sour sod. One of our guys went in and ordered a pint and a G and T with ice.
"Ice" quoth he in a rising tone of ire, "I spend 300 pounds a year heating this place, and you come in asking for ice..".
A few days later, we went as a large group and all asked for GT's. When we then asked for ice, the response was the same. We left en masse, drinks untouched, and unpaid for.
Sebastopol at Minting anyone?

[PHANTOM PHAN]

***Strictly an RF-4C driver ... ***

KATO~

One of the books that brought my interest to Recce Phantoms was Unarmed and Unafraid. Plus, visiting my brother at MUO and seeing their R Phantoms in the 60s.

One thing I was curious about: On a mission to photograph a target, are Recce planes accompanied by any protection flights, such as the BARCAP used in Vietnam?

Also, Im still looking for the explanation of the metal noise when a plane is making turns in the approach...???

Best, Alex

[stillin1]

kato - check yer PMs ref Jack
Glad I could help
(2000 Phantastic hrs):ok:

[meadowbank]

PHANTOM PHAN

The one thing I was always curious about was the noise they made on approach: ROAR with grinding metal overtones.

The only explanation I can offer is that the Phantom weas flown at optimum Angle of Attack on the approach, so the wings were working pretty hard, causing a lot of aerodynamic drag and buffet. This, coupled with the relatively high power setting and, possibly, the noise of air being bled from the engines and blown over the flaps (Boundary Layer Control) may have produced the noise you describe (unless it was the rapid grinding of metal on metal as the pilot moved the controls around in a rapid panic!). Hope this helps.

[johnfairr]

Yup, definitely remember Alfredo, Sunday lunchtimes were a particular joy in those days. From your comments, I reckon that you and I were probably at the same wedding in 1972, then, when the groom got a tankard from Boston RFC with the inscription, "When you're up, don't Black out"....

jf

[maxburner]

Blaireau,

Yep, the Sebastapol was a very pleasant spot. We had a period detached to Waddo and an evening run to Minting for a swift half on the way home was a great way to end the day.

The sour sod at the Lea Gate moved on eventually. It's not a bad place these days, although it's a very occasional treat now as I live many miles away.

Does anyone know how to spell-check in PPrune??

[Kato747]

PHAN

One of the most critical lessons learnt from VN (and most other wars) was that singles don't survive long in combat. Ask Erich Hartmann...or Johnny Johnson

"Alone, unarmed and scared ****e-less" is/was a more apt description.

To answer your question, Recce "Pukes" tried, not always successfully, to get attached to packages of attackers for mutual protection. In the absence of our armed brothers, we went in pairs. Eight eyes "on-stalks" much better than four.

Most missions in Desert Storm / Proven Force (***both North and South) were flown as part of an attack package, if the targets were in the same vicinity. Primarilly for SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) "MAGNUM" was always nice to hear if you had an SA-8 tracking your bottom!

Cheers
Kato

[Zoom]

PHANTOM PHAN
The grinding noise you refer to was the result of the Bleandreeble Manual Override Valve getting stuck in Auto, a common enough occurrence with the J-79.

[Paladini]

ZOOM!

Are you absolutely certain it was the Bleandreeble Manual Override Valve? I thought that retro-fit was only available on the SPEY!!!!??? The J-79 utilized the spondulie overture arch type!

[Throb@30wCPDLC]

A good turnout last night...looking forward to next year`s.Missed you tough "Greek God"!!!!! 92 were outnumbered!

[Zoom]

Paladini
I think you're right! I always get those 2 mixed up. B*gg*r!

[tiger26isfinals]

Hi folks

Watched a TV programme last night that descibed the F4 as a flying bus!?!

Just wonder if there are any ex F4 drivers out there who can please dispel this myth! It also mentioned that the gull shaped wings and anhedral tailplane were due to design mistakes? Not quite sure how that would work!

Cheers

Tiger