F4 Phantom

[soddim]

The number produced and the multitude of Nations that bought them testifies to the quality of the 'bus' ride. It was not the sleekest of its' era and it did have a few odd angles to overcome specific aerodynamic problems but it worked and looked workmanlike.

I thoroughly enjoyed the 2600hrs I spent in the 'bus' and it was capable of beating most aircraft of its' time. It provided the RAF with their first real look down shoot down capability and it could escort itself on strike attack missions. With those attributes one could forgive the aerodynamic properties and where there were instability characteristics, at least it remained predictable - if you screwed up it bit you.

It also provided much satisfaction if you got it right - GA results depended almost entirely on the crew, not on the accuracy of the avionics. Al-in-all I found it much more of a challenge than the more modern kit.

[AHQHI656SQN]

America's proof to the world, that given big enough engines even a brick can fly!

[brickhistory]

America's proof to the world, that given big enough engines even a brick can fly!


Really?!

Brick

[Washington_Irving]

Hi folks

Watched a TV programme last night that descibed the F4 as a flying bus!?!

Just wonder if there are any ex F4 drivers out there who can please dispel this myth! It also mentioned that the gull shaped wings and anhedral tailplane were due to design mistakes? Not quite sure how that would work!

Cheers

Tiger

Would this be the same show on Discovery Wings that said the F4 had "J79 Spey" engines?:}

One of the chaps that made such comments was a civilian lecturer at RMAS. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to judge his level of expertise on this particular matter.

[Pontius Navigator]

Never heard of a two-seat bus and a supersonic one at that.:)

[maxburner]

5000 built and in service around the globe. It was THE aircraft of its generation. I loved it.

[LowObservable]

The original Toom was called the AH-1 (Attack, McDonnell) and had flat straight wings and a flat tail and plain side inlets. IIRC they had some pitch-up problems (lot of things did then) and drooped the tail so that it would not get blanketed by the wing wake (and added the dogtooth on the wing). They found that they needed a little dihedral on the wing, so rather than bend the whole thing they applied a larger degree of crank to the folding bits. Then the Navy decided that they wanted a Mach 2-plus fighter, which meant new inlets. All this was done before the first aircraft flew, which was not bad going for the 1950s. Then the Navy wanted more detection range = bigger antenna = characteristic bloodhound nose, and raised the RIO's seat.
The great and good Bill Gunston recalls seeing the first wire photo of the prototype in the Flight office, with everyone falling over laughing about this clearly screwed-up design...

[The Helpful Stacker]

Was it true that the guy in the back got a bit more of a battering courtesy of G compared to the chap in the front or is this a myth?

I'd have love to have had a flight in an F4*, a truly thunderous beast for us mortals on the ground.

*Although the Bucc would be my first pick if I had the choice.

[John Farley]

THS

Wherever you read about people in the back (of anything) having more trouble with g than people in the front, this is likely to be because the bloke in the front normally knows when the g is coming and can strain. The chap in the back can get caught all relaxed and all.

[Washington_Irving]

The backseat gets a little less G than the front- up to 1/2 g I recall reading for the F4 (back seat is closer to the C of G, think of levers and rotational velocity etc.). What really screws up the backseaters day is when sudden applications of G are unadvertised and Baldrick finds himself with his head in his lap and suddenly able to accomplish something he probably spent most of puberty trying to do with little success (if the harness wasn't in the way:ok: ).

For the record, the mighty Phantom was the dream aircraft for me growing up. It just looked the part- mean as a bag of mean things. Too bad it was in the process of being retired as I arrived.:(

[Safeware]

Anyone know what happened to the ones that were to be kept in deep storage at Shawbury 'JIC'?

sw

[rigpiggy]

Would this be the same show on Discovery Wings that said the F4 had "J79 Spey" engines?:}

One of the chaps that made such comments was a civilian lecturer at RMAS. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to judge his level of expertise on this particular matter.


Check the specs on the F4M or fgr.2 made for the royal navy with spey's they later accepted delivery of F4E/J's? with J79's. who's the expert now?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Rigpiggy - I think the point he was trying to make is that it was quoted "J79 Spey" as if it were one type of engine rather than two different ones.

[BEagle]

Moreover, the FAA never operated any other F-4 model than the F-4K with RR Spey engines as the Phantom FG1. These were based on the F-4J but were substantially modified to operate from the RN's smaller carriers. Later the aircraft were transferred to the RAF. The RAF operated the F-4M version as the Phantom FGR2 which also had Spey engines, although the preference had been for J79s. However, politics dictated that the '50/50' Phantom should have RR Speys.

Later, to meet the NATO commitment, the RAF acquired 15 ex-USN F-4J models from desert storage. These were flown back to the UK in batches from North Island, refuelling from the then new VC10K2s from Miramar on Operation Tiger Trail in 1983-4. In UK service, these were flown by 74 Sqn from RAF Wattisham as the F-4J(UK), not as spotter magazines would have it, as the Phantom F3. They were retired in 1991; 74 then operated the FGR2 until it was disbanded.

The Spey produced more thrust than the J79 at low level, but the F-4M/K were draggier than all other Phantoms due to their bigger intakes. Thus the UK operated the most powerful, most expensive, heaviest and slowest versions of the jet.

Wattisham was a tad short for the J79 engined aircraft with 8 missiles, hence the F-4J(UK)s were usually flown in Bravo fit with a single centreline tank rather than in Charlie fit with wing mounted Sargent Fletcher tanks.

[ORAC]

Confused the tankers on Q at first when the Js arrived and they didn´t have to descend for the join..... ;)

[BEagle]

74 were excellent prodders! Back in those days, AAR slots were 30 min. On one of my early VC10K trips, 2 x gleaming 74 Sqn Bravo fit F-4Js (Stu P plus another) turned up bang on time, joined, went astern, made contact straightaway, sucked their gas until full, disconnected, went to echelon and left - all in about 5 minutes. "Hmm", we all thought "what do we do for the next 25 minutes!"

[ORAC]

Biggest problem, as they were ex-USN, was the air start. Every time they diverted the had to hitch up a cart and drive it across the country to get them going again. They did like their US flying kit though. :)

[stillin1]

I can testify to the utter delight of getting it 'right' in the Big Beautiful Beast = an immensly delightful and rewarding 'bus' to drive (really told you where you had screwed it up though). Flew all the AD varients the RAF had and loved em all. Especially the J.
Some of the American flying kit was great - mainly the helmet that fitted, didn't weigh a ton and was painted in a colour scheme a/r by the owner. USAF flying suits and the 'illegaly black fin' modification were also excellent for pi##ing-off senior officers and mates with a sense-of-humour-deficit . The starter issue was good for long landaway excuses to nice places. Never was too keen on the origional life preserver and joke-dingy though!
The Helpful Stacker - Me too bruv.:ok:

[Washington_Irving]

Check the specs on the F4M or fgr.2 made for the royal navy with spey's they later accepted delivery of F4E/J's? with J79's. who's the expert now?

(Post deleted as I just noticed that others explained my point quite adequately.):ok:

[Wee Jock McPlop]

THS,

Sorry to rub your nose in it, but was lucky enough to get a backseat trip in a 74 Sqn F4J at the back end of 86. I was a sqn ops 'shiney' and was given the trip on leaving the sqn. Sqn Ldr John Sims/Simms was the pilot and the trip was the best memory I have of the RAF - bar none! Told by the auth on walking to the jet 'no air combat with a pax on board'. 20 mins later we made an rv with another F4J that just happened to be out over the North Sea on an air test! For the next 10-15 mins did not know my a... from my elbow! Still, in between sessions in the sick back, it was bloody fantastic!

Did not think too much of Wattisham at the time, but being on 74 more than made up for it. Great days and great people to work for. Dick Northcote, Cliff Spink, T+9 the list goes on and on.

For me, the F4 was 'the' jet to get a trip in, but if I won the lottery, I would off down to sunny SA to book a trip on the banana jet at Thunder City!

WJMcP

[BEagle]

As I was getting airborne at WTM once on a Maxeval in a FGR2, 2 of the then-new Tornados went past simulating a 'recce overflight' by Fencers. Keep heaters in, horns out, over to Stud 4 and ordered to 'engage'. Suprised at that, due to exercise alert state in force. But no matter, Sue was very positive and relayed the instructions carefully. Wheels up, flap up, outboard on the tanks, coolant on, tone as required, CW on, interlocks out, Mx to SW, master Arm on.... There are the buggers! Fox 2...and again...and err, oops, that'll be 600 KIAS at 250 ft over that village!

I was a cr@p F4 driver, as Impiger will probably agree. But that was SUCH fun. As was chasing a German F-104 over Stowmarket in full A/B, rotting up the Eder Dam on the 40th anniversary of the Dambusters Raid, getting 52% on a strafe trip before bouncing my Flt Cdr on his tac check.....

[spocla]

Beagle, How cr@p?

[ORAC]

So how would you rate yourself compared to "Sly Pokum" then, Beagle? ;)

[BEagle]

Not good enough for the RAF's high standards, even though I did make Operational status.

Which meant having 20 years on the VC10 instead - and intercepting in comfort:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/HelloBoris.jpg

Ho hum.... As for the chap to whom you refer, at least I never hit another aircraft!

[Art Field]

Must have been the paint job on the Lizard, Beags, that makes it look a little closer than the half mile separation we were allowed. Dare I say that we we often out there alone as the F4 had gone home U/S.

[BEagle]

No - it's the Lizard's paint job and the optical effect of the zoom lens....;)

Who was I to criticise the captain's assessment? The late Greg McK. Also an ex-F4 pilot.

How do you assess 1/2 mile without either A/A TACAN (not carried by Bears) or with something as poor as the E190 radar?

[ORAC]

What did they work out the tail-fuselage separation must have been after the Ruskies complained when the tanker closed and got the door number...........

[Lyneham Lad]

As an ex-rigger with time at Coningsby ('68 - '70) then Brueggen (couldn't find the code for an umlaut), first on ASF then 14 Sqn, I remember the FGR2 with fondness. I also remember a Brueggen Family's Day when the Sqn display crew did their thing along the flight line and then disappeared. Thinking that was it, the crowd of spouses and ankle biters in front of the hangar relaxed........only for the Phantom to appear from behind, drop down in front of them and engage full reheat. Cue lots of screams, shrieks and tears. :hmm:

The anoraks amongst you might like to try http://www.thephantomshrine.co.uk/

[The Rocket]

Gorgeous aircraft, as many people have already said, it really did look "meaner than a bag of mean things"

Sadly it was before my time, but it was definately one of the major influences in my choice of career, and I can still remember the A2 sized poster on my bedroom wall.

Aaaaahh, Memories:p

[Postman Plod]

Now... please forgive me for asking this.... I dont think I've ever been quite so spotterish... :yuk: but...

What were the differences between the FG1 and the FGR2?? Anything significant? Anything obviously physically different? Were they both carrier capable?

[Archimedes]

Just for information, Phantom from the Cockpit: Flying the Legend by Peter Caygill (published by Pen & Sword books) has recently hit the bookshops.
I assume that it is in the same vein as his previous books Jet Jockeys and Lightning From the Cockpit.

[NutherA2]

[What were the differences between the FG1 and the FGR2?? Anything significant? Anything obviously physically different? Were they both carrier capable?[/quote]

Internal differences, the FG1 had no battery, no inertial, no HF so was well equipped to get lost & incommunicado. Externally the ailerons drooped when flaps were lowered so as to reduce final approach speed to something that the Mighty Ark's 840 odd feet of runway could handle; the FG1 stabilator had a fixed slat (upside down) to maintain adequate pitch control at the lower speed. To enable less traumatic s/e go-arounds, the RN FG! engines were modified, I believe, to enable "rapid" reheat selction our Fighting Cocks machinery didn't go for this one. Without the droopaileron & slotted stabilator the FGR2 might have been uncomfortable going to a deck smaller than the USN boats.

[Brian Abraham]

Be interested to hear as an enthusiast of your opinions re the relative merits of the Spey versus the J79.

[stillin1]

Spey - nice at low level, pretty bomb-proof, cr@p above block 3 (>40K+), draggy cos it's a wide bu@@er and made you look like you were crop-spraying if not in min burner. Oh and as already referred to - you could start it up without the crazy USN starter TRUCK needed for the J79.
J79B - not quite the thrust at low level, great though all the way up to well above the release to service limits (and nice dry power cruise above airliner-land), pretty bomb proof, the engine designed for the jet so nice and slim!!! = less draggy, Fast burner light if you enjoyed the hot relight bang and only made you look like you were nearly crop spraying. Nasty lack of volts if both stopped in flight though!
;) Oh and did I mention - You also got the US flying suit (one that fitted), spray painted helmet and black fin.:cool:
Where is 'gentleman John these days?:ok:

[ORAC]

Other two main differences, both later removed/disabled on the FG1 when land based with the RAF.

First, the FG1 was fitted with a double-extensible nose undercarriage leg to give a high angle of attack for carrier launches. It could be extended in length by as much as 40 inches and, I am lead to believe, that pilots tended to sit well back if the gear got stuck and they had to land with it extended.....

Second, the dish for the AWG-11 radar was fitted inside the radome and swung sideways with it when it has folded in order to reduce the aircraft's length so that it could fit on the deck lifts and reduce stowage space below decks. Caused a lot of unservicable radars due to bad waveguide seals when it was closed.

Not sure on the detail differences between the AWG-11 & 12, except an embarassed new OC Leuchars had to ask his wingman how to turn on the gunsight after just arriving off the FGR2 course at CY.......

[BEagle]

Didn't the FG1 also have permanent 12th stage blow with flaps down, whereas in the FGR2 it was normally 7th stage, but 12th stage was manually selectable.

[Lyneham Lad]

Didn't the FG1 also have permanent 12th stage blow with flaps down, whereas in the FGR2 it was normally 7th stage, but 12th stage was manually selectable.
Certainly the FGR2 used bleed air from the 7th and 12th stages, but as to selectability.......I'll just pop up into the loft and see if my course notes are still there.
In the meantime, I recall that our Coningsby FGR2's had manual wingfold whereas IIRC the (early) FGR1's had the hydraulic wingfold. I can clearly recall an incident in the ASF hangar at Coningsby when a team of guys were folding the wings by the somewhat dodgy manual method. This consisted of about three guys underneath pushing up whilst two stood on top waiting for the outer wing to be raised sufficiently for them to grab hold. Of course, as the outer wing reached nearer and nearer to the vertical, the guys underneath had less and less leverage whilst the ones on top couldn't really help much until the wing was almost vertical and even then, as their feet were hard up against the hinge, they could only steady the wing rather than pull. Not quite sure what triggered the event, I only heard the resulting thuds as the outer wing fell from the nearly vertical, struck one of the lads underneath squarely on the head and then with considerable velocity into the fully extended position. The biggest talking points revolved around the fact that the ambulance from SSQ (a few minutes walk from the hangar) took about 15 minutes to arrive and take away the unconcious J/T. We all assumed that he would be whipped away to Nocton Hall for x-rays and were dumbfounded when he was released from SSQ that afternoon sans x-rays etc (but it was a Friday afternoon.....). I wonder what the H&S people would say about this nowadays (risk assessment? - wots one of those?). Actually, it would have been a good thing for the H&S polizei to have been around then as we had to endure, on a daily basis, the use of multiple diesel engined hyd rigs and houchins in the hangar as the electrical supply wasn't man enough to run the electrical equivalents. One had to wear ear defenders all day and breathe a diesel fume-rich atmosphere as there were never enough exhaust extensions. Ah, happy days....:uhoh:

[maxburner]

At the risk of being called a spotter, and wearing my shabbiest anorak, here we go. Yes, the Spey-engined FGR2 could use both 7th and 12th stage air for boundary layer control. However, if I recall correctly, the on-speed was only 3 kts slower using both, and it casued the TGT to rise a few degrees thus adding wear and tear on the engines. So, a Bleed Control Switch was used in the Isolate position to select 7th stage air only. I'm a little hazy here in that it could have been 12th stage only, but I think I'm right in saying 7th.

Ground school on the F4 was a very long time ago, and I haven't flown one since about 1986, so forgive this humble contributor if I've got it all round my neck, as they say in Lincolnshire.

Still a great jet, though!

[maxburner]

Yes Lyneham Lad, health and safety were far from top priority. I remember the lads walking along the aircraft spines to put the covers on the pitot tubes. No scaffolding, rubber soled shoes and an oily and often wet surface a long way off the ground. I'm amazed we didn't kill more guys.

[Regie Mental]

As 74 used to say,

'What happens if you spey a Phantom?

It gets fatter and goes slower'.

[soddim]

One other significant difference between J79 and Spey was the spool-up time. The old technology axial flow turbojet was rapidly responsive to throttle demands whereas the by-pass Spey was very slow in comparison and the reheat light-up even slower. The use of idle power if high and fast on the approach would invariably be followed either by a touchdown in the undershoot or a change of underpants as the people got bigger quicker than rate of descent could be reduced. Pulling G whilst selecting reheat could wash off 50 kts in no time before the burners lit so it was always useful if the bogey could send 5 secs notice before manoeuvring.

The only good thing about the Spey in the RAF Phantoms was the British jobs saved/created - perhaps a worthwhile price to pay?

[Zoom]

Can't agree that the Spey was 'pretty bombproof'. It was distinctly fragile, especially in the early days when its TBO was about 50 hours. Even though the TBO was progressively increased, the Spey's flashbacks and associated (but unspecified) damage were never really sorted out by endless mods, tweaks and interviews with RR reps. Still, it is worth remembering that it was the world's first reheated turbofan and so I suppose it was all part of the learning process. Even the F-15 had engine stall problems in its first few years of service. But the turbojet J79 was made of cast iron, with cast iron bits and pieces and cast iron moving bits. That was bombproof!

Another problem with the Spey was that it was shorter than the J79 and so the engine's weight was further aft, making for a more pitchy aircraft than the other versions. This made some precision work - such as strafe - more difficult, so BEagle's score of 52% was pretty damned good. I take my hat off to him. :ok:

[A2QFI]

I think I recall that it was 7 years in service before a Spey engine in Phantom ran to its scheduled TBO without removal; are we talking 200 hours? I am not sure of the figures. There was certainly a major engine shortage in the early70s - OCU closed and engines sent to RAFG to keep the strike and recce forces in the air.

[soddim]

Yes, it was in 1970 that a lot of crews at Coningsby were grounded due to shortage of engines. This followed an incident where both engines failed in the same aircraft on the same sortie. Fortunately, the second engine failed after landing.

It gave rise to a wonderful example of the late Jim McRoberts wit when, shortly after being told that he was one of the chosen few to be grounded, he announced to all present that 'for years he had been getting the ****ty end of the stick and now they had taken the stick away'. RIP Jim.

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Soddim

I remember Mr McR from my time on 92sqn. Now there was a top gun, a much better man than the Hollywood/Tom Cruise image could ever hope to be. If memory serves correctly he was cleared to the max "g" and beyond that the mighty toom could pull.

Thanks for the memories and RIP

[Zoom]

The only Jim McRoberts I remember was on the OCU and he then moved to 41 Sqn when it first fired up. He called himself 'TacR MacR'. Good recce puke, even though he was a nav.

[jimgriff]

From watching the mighty toom on Aperporth range for years during AMPC it was easier to spot the J79 engined a/c' either USAF or 74 sqdn as they had miles of sooty exhaust behind them. cough!!!:yuk:

[soddim]

The sooty exhaust from the J79 was so bad that a wise unspeyed F4 pilot lit the burners before 10 miles range to get rid of the 'here-I-am' trail.

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember two instances where banging out led to a soft landing for the aircraft. One was a spin recovery trial. We were shown the video on the OCU in 1969. The F4 climbed like a rocket until eventually it slid down its contrail before entering a spin.

It rotated about 3 times then the canopies departed followed by the crew. The aircraft then did a soft, wheels up landing on the edge of the salt lake. The film showed it virtually undamaged.

The second incident was an F4J in Vietnam. After the crew departed the aircraft was seen to make a successful landing on the beach. By the time the air strike arrived - a few minutes - the aircraft had gone and Russia had a fully serviceable Doppler AI radar.

So, if in doubt bang out the nav. If that fails, bang out yourself. Yes, I know pilot had to leave straight after the nav or risk the lid staying on.

[LowObservable]

Some aircraft have been known to enter a stable stalled descent with 200 or 400 pounds of excess ballast removed from the nose. The F-106 in the USAF Museum did that, was recovered from a snowy field in the Frozen North (ND IIRC) and flew until the type was retired.
BTW I recall reading about the Spey-Phantom in the early days, with RR confidently predicting that it would be far better all round than the J79 and would sell in export form - I think there was even an AR.168 designation for an Allison-built AB Spey, ready for when the USAF and USN saw the light. After all, how could a ****ing LIGHTBULB COMPANY possibly beat RR?

[bad livin']

I went through IOT with Greg McK's daughter, now a paid up Herc mate and quality lass, Beags.

[TEEEJ]

QUOTE=Brian Abraham]Be interested to hear as an enthusiast of your opinions re the relative merits of the Spey versus the J79.[/QUOTE]


Of possible interest. The remaining Speys were sold onto China. The last batch went out in 2001. The old Phantom Speys were used to help in the production of FB-7As (Codename Flounder). The FB-7A went into PRC service in 2004.

http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/attack/JH-7A4.jpg

[Washington_Irving]

So THAT is what would happen if a Jag and a Phantom had a child...

[meadowbank]

Not many buses could travel at 750 kts/M1.2 at low level - always a fun thing to do after intercepting a Bucc who thought he was going quickly. Sailing past, waving, with your a*rse on fire - must have been an impressive sight. The subsequent vertical climb to 20,000+ ft always impressed me too!

[Pontius Navigator]

But the Bucc counter was to drop a wing as if it was going to turn. F4 would roll on th ebank in a twinkle and pull, the Bucc would simply continue in a straight line :)

[jindabyne]

Aah meadowbank - but having been unable to get either a Fox 1 or 2 off in the process, and then having to look down him during the flyby must've pretty frustrating.

[NutherA2]

having to look down him during the flyby must've pretty frustrating.[/quote]

We didn't look down on Banana Bomber crews, that would have been snobbish & rude. Was it true that when designing the F4 McDonnell were trying to produce the ugliest aircraft in the world, but came a close second to Blackburn?

[meadowbank]

Pontius
Never saw that one, but I think it would only catch someone once.
Jindabyne
Had every respect for the Bucc defensive manoeuvring reactions when locked up by radar, but usually managed to get a Fox 1 shot in at some stage, albeit usually at close range. Not unknown to roll out in the middle of a Bucc card formation though, thinking we were behind the rear element, but then we were safe in front of a Banana Jet weren't we? Beer calls betwixt Bucc and Phantom mates were always special with the 2-man crew thing in common. Happy days! :ok:

[soddim]

With all respect to ex-Bucc aircrew, there are two types of aircraft - Fighters and Targets.

[Pontius Navigator]

Meadowbank
> ***************
> Pontius
> Never saw that one, but I think it would only catch someone once.
It was one of the OCU staff around the time of Bill W.
> Not unknown to roll out in the middle of a Bucc card formation though, thinking we were behind the rear element, but
> then we were safe in front of a Banana Jet weren't we.

Yup, been there seen it. Put an F15C onto a 4-ship. Score was one-all.

[Navaleye]

With all respect to ex-Bucc aircrew, there are two types of aircraft - Fighters and Targets.

A bit like the Shar and the GR7/9 then?

[jindabyne]

meadow - happy days indeed

Once had a trip in your mighty Toomb, a USAF F4D in Norway c.'67, chap called Capt Gary Dryden in the front - courtesy of a winning bet in the Bodo bar at around 3am. Well hungover at the time with a T/O of around 9am. Most I can recall is thrust, INAS and RoC - and that my Hunter would never ever be the same again!

[Pete McC]

How do I post pictures on here?
Pete McC

[henry crun]

There is a sticky in History and Nostagia which tells you how.

[peterbuckstolemymeds]

My old man was Chief Tech at Leuchars in the sixties and was very fond of the Phantoms. Except "Juliet" which he used to claim was a complete lemon and was never out the hangar.
I believe someone told him late in his life that Juliet ended up in a museum near Edinburgh, don't know if that's true. Certainly seems like it was the right aircraft to retire early, if it's true.
In retrospect, I believe I posted erroneous information. "Juliet" was almost certainly an English Electric Lightning. One of these girls -- can't be sure if it's my father's tech nemesis J-juliet or not -- is at East Fortune Museum in East Lothian, not far from Edinburgh.
My Dad's not around to ask any more. I asked my Mother, who remembers that my father was certainly involved with Lightnings, thoughs she helpfully added that he served his apprenticeship working on Mosquitoes and Wellingtons (!) :)
My family moved from RAF Leuchars in 1969/1970 when my father's time with the service came to an end (he maintained that decimalization had devalued his pension, so those dates are likely close-ish; I was just a nipper back then).
In view of that fact, and the previous post, Juliet was probably not a Phantom, and I apologize. Sorry that it took so long to circle back around and correct this.
Though my dad certainly spoke of Phantoms -- in particular, a tale of a US pilot creating a crater with one during an air show that he attended -- it seems unlikely that he was ever reponsible for any.
The error is one of my recollection.
PB

[Dark Helmet]

PB,
Just about every squadron has an aeroplane that proves to be more troublesome than all the rest. Nobody can quite work out why this is; perhaps they were built on a Friday afternoon or Monday morning!
As a result they spend most of their time in the hangar or HAS and get 'robbed' of all the good bits to keep the rest of the squadron's aeroplanes flying, until there is virtually nothing left to rob. When the replacement parts arrive they don't get fitted because you know you will be robbing them again! So they just sit there gathering dust with all the access panels removed and looking very sad. They are often called 'Christmas Trees' and when I was at Wattisham on 23 sqn we had a Phantom that we did indeed, decorate at Christmas time, complete with lights!

So your father would definitely have had a Christmas Tree on all the squadrons he worked on.

[maxburner]

I guess that would have been the infamous Pops, with the tendency to put a bootfull of rudder in whenever the mood took it. I was on 23 from 79 until 82. Must admit I loved the Wattisham area.

[SkyHawk-N]

Maybe slightly off topic but here goes anyway. I've been tidying out a load of cupboards recently and found a book on the Phantom OCU which was published for the disbandment of the Unit. If anyone here would like it please PM me, I'd like it to go to a good home.

Edit : The book has found a home and is no longer available.

[BEagle]

On 56(F) we had 'Tits up Tango' - an F4 which went through an exciting phase of generating spurious RH engine fire indications.....

On 101, there was VC10K2 ZA143 ('D') - infamously known to the groundies as 'The Dog'.....

Any more out there?

[A2QFI]

This is still available for £4.50 from the RAF Beneveolent Fund - a useful reminder of what we all looked like in the 70s and 80s, now we are in our 50s and 60s and 70s!

[Knucklehead]

I was very close to that F700 when Flt Lt:mad: signed for 4 sparrows, 4 'winders, and 1000 in the can. I was closer still to the scorch marks when Flt Lt:mad: brought back just 3 'winders.

As for the excuses, it wasn't aircrew's finest moment when it came to pointing the finger. Could it just possibly have been that old sloppy link between seat and stick that failed?:E

There were other factors involved. Far from flying regularly with live weapons at the end of a generation exercise wiser heads recognised that the F4's weapons system wasn't exactly safe. Therefore after aircraft generation with confirmed serviceable Sparrow and Sidewinder systems the exercise stopped while live weapons were downloaded and acquisition Sidewinders and sim plugs fitted. On the fateful day the Station Commander for whatever reason skipped the downloads and launched the wing live.

The crew involved manned up late. They had both recently moved off base to local hirings and the recall plan did not reflect this. Another crew on local leave stood in while they were found. They scrambled soon after taking over and concentrated on coping with new unfamiliar Supplan Mike departure and arrival procedures. Beside the pulled cct breaker in the rear cockpit, armed aircraft were supposed to have the armmament master switch in the front cockpit immobilised with orange dayglo tape. It's 24 years ago but I'm pretty certain that the tape wasn't there. This is understandable as our armourers did not expect the jets to be launched live. They then met the Jaguar pair at Borkun (the largest POL in N Germany) at 1000' QNH and shot down No 2.

There was an interesting sequel. On the next generation exercise the CO decided to launch us again with live weapons to prove that we could operate safely. However there was a slight variation on the theme. Instead of mounting the usual autonomous LL CAPs. we were to survival scramble on vertical dispersal and carry out ML PIs under GCI control with the controllers chanting 'Check switches safe' at about 15 second intervals. These instructions were passed on telebrief to all HASs before the mass scramble. Unfortunately one crew were sunning themselves outside their HAS because an EOD exercise was going on inside. They manned up about a minute before the scramble and got airborne blissfully unaware of the plan. The R/T on Clutch was bedlam as everyone vied for handoffs to GCI, so spotting a VFR area below, the unbriefed crew stopped their climb and told Clutch that they were off to low level. Three aircraft behind them assumed that our heroes knew something that they didn't and followed them. The four then set up the usual LL CAP and spent a pleasant hour or so chasing sundry 2TAF aircraft around the N German plain. Apparently the CO was not best pleased at this apparent flouting of his cunning plan as he could see his smooth inexorable climb to ACM possibly checked. Of course it wasn't.

Some years later I met the Jaguar leader who became a good friend despite my, to him, dubious background. He told me that as they approached Borkun, Clutch reported a fast mover in their 12 o'clock so they widened to look for it. On roll out he looked back for his No 2 in time to see his tail fall off. He immediately shouted at him to eject which undoubtedly helped 2's decision making process as he was low and slightly confused to put it mildly. Incidentally that Jaguar pair eventually shared 3 ejections between them.

This sorry tale has a relatively happy ending. I fully second the remarks about what a good bloke and operator the pilot was. I too flew with him on the OCU as a student and later on the squadron. He left the service for a short while and then rejoined. He did in fact get his scraper and some time later was commended for an outstanding contribution to aircraft operations.

[granmarriott]

Beside the pulled cct breaker in the rear cockpit, armed aircraft were supposed to have the armmament master switch in the front cockpit immobilised with orange dayglo tape. It's 24 years ago but I'm pretty certain that the tape wasn't there. This is understandable as our armourers did not expect the jets to be launched live. They then met the Jaguar pair at Borkun (the largest POL in N Germany) at 1000' QNH and shot down No 2.

.

Hang on a minute, the taping up of master arm switches came about as a result of the phantom pilot forgetting to see the 8 fooking big missiles and a gun hanging underneath his aeroplane, same guy not reading the armament state of his aeroplane, and for all I know same guy's gung ho attitude causing him not the armourers to shoot down a friend:=

Trying to shift the blame even a small portion of it on to guys who sweat blood arming your mounts is quite simply out of order but sadly it is expected.:=

you might have guessed by now i was an armourer on phantoms and quite prepared to accept my share of a f*ck up if merited. In this case the blame lies solely with the trigger presser

[granmarriott]

I guess that would have been the infamous Pops, with the tendency to put a bootfull of rudder in whenever the mood took it. I was on 23 from 79 until 82. Must admit I loved the Wattisham area.

Yes it would have been "P" of UCM fame. also remember "c" serving time by the aircrew crewroom for a couple of months.

I too was on 23 79/82 Are you the jockey who still owes me for a visit to tacky ton and a few extra red holes in his banner to ensure qualifying at Akrotiri:ok:

[Geehovah]

Hang on a minute, the taping up of master arm switches came about as a result of the phantom pilot forgetting to see the 8 fooking big missiles and a gun hanging underneath his aeroplane, same guy not reading the armament state of his aeroplane, and for all I know same guy's gung ho attitude causing him not the armourers to shoot down a friend:=

Trying to shift the blame even a small portion of it on to guys who sweat blood arming your mounts is quite simply out of order but sadly it is expected.:=

you might have guessed by now i was an armourer on phantoms and quite prepared to accept my share of a f*ck up if merited. In this case the blame lies solely with the trigger presser

Remembering said incident very well, lets not get off track.

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see from an armed aircraft when its carrying only training rounds. The eminent psychologist explained this very well at the CM.

And I agree, both guys were top chaps and did what they were trained to do. Just eternally grateful that the Jaguar pilot landed safely, albeit not as planned.

[soddim]

And it was quite clear that they meant no harm to the Jag mate because otherwise they would have strafed his parachute!

[granmarriott]

Remembering said incident very well, lets not get off track.

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see from an armed aircraft when its carrying only training rounds. The eminent psychologist explained this very well at the CM.

And I agree, both guys were top chaps and did what they were trained to do. Just eternally grateful that the Jaguar pilot landed safely, albeit not as planned.

I am not getting off track. Sim plugs fit neatly into the palm of the hand and Aq sidewinders look nothing like live sidewinders, so that clears that bit up, the crew should have seen the difference on the walk round. For an unarmed ac the role state would have said Aquisition S/w either stn 2 or 8 and sim plugs stn 3 and or 7, the weapon state would have been blank but this A/c had the correct load of 2 sw on each i/b pylon and sparrows on 3,4,6 and 7 and a gun with 1000 rounds entered, so either the pilot was distracted when he signed the book or careless or more likely simply forgetful when actually in the air. It was implied that the whole accident wouldn't have happened had the plumbers put a piece of tape over the master arm switch as they should have done. HOGWASH it became SOP to put tape over master arm switches only after the Jag was shot down because it was patently obvious aircrew had the attention span of goldfish and couldn't remember seeing big pointy things hanging underneath their aeroplane and so needed reminding every 15 seconds or so. Once it became SOP I can never recall a single instance of the tape ever being omitted whether on excercise, QRA or any other occasion the plane was armed.

I have no doubt that the pilot involved in this unfortunate accident was a top bloke but it seems unfair to shift a share of his blame onto the guys who armed the aircraft when they were not at fault in the first place.

[granmarriott]

And it was quite clear that they meant no harm to the Jag mate because otherwise they would have strafed his parachute!

I thank you for interjecting the required shot of humour.:D

this is one event which really rubbed a lot of plumbers up the wrong way at the time. There was always going to be a certain amount of blame shifting after an incident like that and we seemed to cop an inordinately unfair amount considering all our bits worked and the guys on the ground did evrything as per. After all the missile did growl, it did go whoosh and the Jag jockey will vouch for it going bang.

[Geehovah]

I'll rephrase my remark

Mr McDonnell spent many hours designing sim plugs and aq rounds that simulate precisely what you should see in the cockpit whether armed or carrying only training rounds.

There could be no blame attached to the troops loading the missiles. And we all know how procedures changed after the event.

Have to correct you on the bodge tape. It was SOP to tape the master arm from Day 1 when we put the FGR2 on Q.

Out

[Dundiggin']

These apocryphal tales and memories are fantastic..........
I have one.....

I arrived at MPA Officers Mess 'fresh' from the Tristar to grab a stiffner prior to settling down to my first tour in MPA on the 78Sqn Wokkas. Next to me at the bar drinking was a guy on his own. I said
'Hello mate - I'm blah who are you?'
'I'm Kenny Ev@@@@t he answered.
'You been here long?'
'No not too long' he replied.
'What do you do around the bazaars cos you're not the comedian' :suspect:
'No I'm a Phantom driver on 23 Sqn'
'When you due back then?'
'Today on the Tristar - the barstards are short touring me'.
'Why's that then?'
'Well they didn't like the low flypast I made at Saunders cos when I landed back here I was still wearing the HF aerial from the house!' :uhoh:

'That's why the flag flies when Seniors are visiting the house!!' ;)

Well I was 'kin impressed with that and there proceeded two months of unmerciful ribbing and p@ss taking of the 23 Sqn attempts at low flying during 'Firey Crosses'. This led to lots of low-ish wazzes of the 78Sqn hangar, leading to a magnificent inter-Sqn p@ssing contest, with lots of 'Wokka 23 re-joins' which hugely improved moral and gave everyone (including the blunties) a reason to live!!

Who could ever forget (esp 23 Sqn!) the dousing of the BBQ by Wokka firebucket!! :D

I bet the 23 Sqn exponents reading this still haven't fathomed how the Britania birds preferred occasionally to visit our 'Big Choppers' as opposed to their Phantoms when they arrived wide-eyed and soon-to-be legless at MPA........that's definitely need-to-know!!!!!:E

[granmarriott]

I'll rephrase my remark


Have to correct you on the bodge tape. It was SOP to tape the master arm from Day 1 when we put the FGR2 on Q.

Out

I presume that must have been a local SOP in that case, certainly not the situation at Wattisham until after the jag incident. We did use A/c armed notices in the side of the cockpit prior to the tape instruction but obviously these were removed on Q as soon as the a/c was accepted. I remember well the look of amazement on our chief's face when he was told that in future master arms were to be taped as part of the load.

From the plumbers perspective the bodge tape was always regarded as a bit of flim flam used to excuse the jag incident, . It was never accepted that the lack of tape contributed to the incident, what else were we to believe when taping the MA was not included on an OTR?and I still find it incredible that the jocky "forgot" he was flying an armed A/C, after all it was a fairly major slip of the mind!

[BEagle]

SOPs at that time varied between squadrons at pre-grunt Wattisahm. On the superior squadron, 56(F) we were always meticulous with our procedures....

Not so the 'Crows'. Taxying in one night, I once saw one of their jets get airborne with sheets of flame coming out of the back end. Not just a/b, but something more. The crew staggered round the pattern and made a single engine landing. The cause? The alert state had changed from RS-something to RS-something else and the crew hadn't bothered to go out and recheck the jet. So when the hooter went they rushed off with the intake blanks still in. One was partially ingested, the other lodged in the intake duct.....

Another time I stood 'Q' for them during a handover, went out to the jet and was appalled to find all the pins and blanks still in despite the mandatory Q RS state. So declined to accept the thing until it was properly cocked. Much grumbling from the Crows' JEngO, but they finally sorted it after the DFC threatened to ring Neat MC and take them off state......

Wanquerres!

[granmarriott]

SOPs at that time varied between squadrons at pre-grunt Wattisahm. On the superior squadron, 56(F) we were always meticulous with our procedures....

Wanquerres!

I remember the singeing chickens slightly differently being of the Red Eagle persuasion myself. Always regretting showing their QWI how to drop centre lines in deci after he somehow managed to "help" his groundcrew by waiting till on was refuelled before he broke it :O

[soddim]

This might be an opportune moment to reflect on the real cause of the shooting down of the Jaguar because the correct remedy has yet to be found. It is a very simple safety precaution that is inbred in those who regularly use live weapons that one never points them except at those targets one intends to do harm to.

Now the AD role has for decades blessed the act of contravening that basic rule by dictating to aircrew that they make all switches live in training and achieve a kill solution using the trigger to confirm a shot within parameters so it is surprising that not more inadvertent ‘kills’ have been achieved.

The main reason for the scarcity of accidental ‘kills’ is that air defenders do not normally train with live weapons aboard but, on occasions like Gulf War 1, they did so for an extended period. The difference then was that all training in theatre was conducted with live weapons and the crews remained aware.

The best remedy is to teach crews that they never select a weapon together with all the arming switches and press the trigger/bomb release unless they mean harm. For training purposes a better alternative than that currently used must be found that will still enable evaluation of the correct procedures.

[NoseGunner]

Soddim - I disagree.

[granmarriott]

This might be an opportune moment to reflect on the real cause of the shooting down of the Jaguar because the correct remedy has yet to be found. It is a very simple safety precaution that is inbred in those who regularly use live weapons that one never points them except at those targets one intends to do harm to.



quite right!! As you say first rule of any live weapon handling. I know I have probably come across as over critical of the aircrew in my recent posts but having had that simple drummed into me from in my case the age of 11 I find it incredible that the pilot and to a lesser degree, much lesser degree in fact the nav forgt it was a live weapon they were pointing.

As to how to avoid his happening again, you won't while ever live weapons are carried on training flights, well at least not with 100% certainty.

I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers but blaming the absence of that little bit of sticky tape has ruffled a lot of armourers feathers for a long time.

It is a pity that if as everyone says the guy who fired the shot is a good guy he will be remembered for that one misake rather than something good. All I can say is that I am glad I didn't drop a goolie as monumental as that, but if I had I am sure I would have tried to wiggle a little bit.

[clicker]

Loved the F4, wish I had seen more of them "in anger" as I didnt get into the "sydney superspotter" mode of visiting ranges and more interesting places for piccies until after they left service.

Best ones I saw were the Alcock and Brown, the all black 111 Sqdn a/c and the blue a/c, which I think were both used by 92 and 74 sqdns.

[johnfairr]

Knucklehead, check your PMs

jf

[Sadbloke]

Dundiggin

Kenny & POD certainly received a huge wiggin - Mark Hanna had waxed the same gaff but avided washing line - fantastic photos - Only bit of an F4 you can see above the one storey gaff is the RWR aerial atop the fin! Mark - U are the Garcon - RIP!

[OCCWMF]

Soddim - Post #23

Actually - There is one shiny operational sqn at Coningsby.:p It is definitely not a 'phoon sqn :E (and the Q birds are detached from elsewhere)

[soddim]

You have to look at the date of that post, OCCWMF.

However, it is good to see 6 back and Coningsby reverberating once more with the sound of freedom.

[Dundiggin']

Hi Sadbloke,

Seems like an ideal time and place to post a piccie of le Garcon RIP pres de la maison......?? :E :ok:

[OCCWMF]

Doh!:* :O Retract......

[thing]

Just found this site by accident. Never knew it existed! This has brought back many memories of the F4. It was possibly the F4 that made me want to join the RAF, as I vividly remember watching the Simon Dee show when he went for a supersonic flight in one of the first Tooms to be delivered to the UK and I was awestruck. The thing looked like it shouldn't have flown at all. I arrived at 228OCU in '74 as an Nav Inst mech after training. The aircrew I remember are Middy Hopper (my mate married his daughter Liz), Nick Ireland, Bob Prest, Arthur Vine (I was strapping Arthur in once and he made the wry comment after watching some Luftwaffe Tooms taxy in that he'd been fighting the buggers 30 years earlier, I think he flew Tempests) and Mike Shaw who was OC at the time and I remember him as a very nice bloke.

The chief in charge of my line shift was the amazing Jock Hickey. Jock was one of the great characters of the RAF, they seemed to die out towards the end of my service. If I remember correctly he was banned from the mess for not wearing a tie in the bar. When his ban ran out he turned up wearing a tie and nothing else. Banned again. We used to chain the back mudgard of his bike to the bike rack so that we could see him come crashing off it after he'd gone 5 yards. Sadly I believe Jock died a few years ago.

Other characters I remember vaguely were Master Pilot Egan, who was taken up for a jolly in a twin sticker before he retired and apparently flew it like an expert. Which I suppose he was. There was an aircrew guy with a beard on 41 which I always thought odd, how did his mask fit? And another aircrew guy with an eye patch, which really fills you with confidence.

Also at the time Bob Prest was flying on the OCU, the hit 'Oh, We're Going to Jamaica' via coconut airways was doing the rounds, which of course led to him being dubbed Coconut Airways One by us. I don't think he appreciated it. We all thought that Bob had seen to many Bond movies as he used to pose around in a black TR6 and was never without his designer shades.

There were also a couple of US Marine exchange navs there at the time who were really great guys. One of them had been filmed doing a wheels up in an F4 somewhere in the states. The other guy had flown his twin sticker after the stude pilot had flaked out after pulling some ridiculous amount of 'G'. That was one bent aircraft when it came back. I believe one of the characteristics of the Toom was that it pitched up as it came back through Mach 1 and he was already heaving some as it happened.

CO's I remember were a guy called Allison, I think he was replaced by a guy called Clark who was a really nice bloke. I also remember one of the Wg Cdrs there was called Danny Lavender, maybe OC29? We said hello at some beer call or other and finished up spending the rest of the night talking about flying (I fly gliders and George Lee the then World Glider champ was a Toom pilot) Top bloke.

The F4 was a cogs and knobs kite, it was pre IC electronics which made it interesting to work on. You could actually figure out faults without plugging the bloody thing into a computer. I used to alternate between working out on the line where my main raison d'etre was to run up and align the INAS before the crew arrived, and working in the shed which was more interesting technically but not as much of an adrenaline rush as standing next to 2 speys when they are winding up and you are 'Man 1'. Some of the boxes were a pain to get to, I remember the rear bang seat had to come out if you wanted to change the Weapons Computer, and a lot of time was spent upside down inside the rear cockpit which was the only way to get at some of the stuff with any degree of success. The rate gyro's needed an enormous panel taking off inside the wheel well which was a real pain of a job. Another bad one was harmonising the ODU for gun shoots. There was a device called the BIL (Boresight something or other) which had to be fitted into the nose gear compartment. There were 2 bolts holding it place, the bottom bolt was easy to fix but the top one needed the fingers of a child to squirm through the pipes to get your hands on it. Sometimes the thread would just start immediately, other times you would be there for 15 minutes without any luck, grinding the skin off your hands. As a result, most alignments were done without the top bolt in place, so some of the ex pole stirrers here may now have a new excuse for not hitting the banner..........oddly enough, in later years I was at 30 MU, Sealand and my job was to refurbish and repair ODU's, including the little joke thing that was fitted to Navy Tooms, the OSA. You would have been better off with a chinagraph cross on the windscreen. So I suppose as I was the only guy in the RAF doing that job that most of the jocks here have at some time or other looked through one of my lovingly rebuilt masterpieces...!

Prangs I remember were the CO being killed just before I arrived. Hit a crop sprayer. Several jets came down during my time there but as I remember, all the crews banged out safely. One that springs to mind is a jet that lost it's outer wing, maybe in a mid air. One that I saw was XV415 that crashed after a roller. I was strapping somebody in and I glanced up as it lifted off, there was obviously something wrong as it was leaving a trail of crap behind it, then two parachutes appeared. I remember thinking that they must be dropping flares, you just never expect to see a plane crash. It slowly rolled and crashed into the Witham round about Tatty Bridge. Apparently bits of it came to rest in an old dear's garden and when the fire crews got there they realised she was as deaf as a post. 'An aircraft has just set your garden on fire' shouts head fire person into her ear, 'Oh, I thought I could hear the dog barking' says old lady.

I was there in '76 when the Queen came to visit, can't remember why now but it was that blazing hot summer and her plane was late. Guys were flaking out all over the parade ground because no one had the wit to stand everyone at the easy and relax for a while. As I remember a jock called Dave Roome was the officer who was standing right in front of me on the parade ground. He was trying to say to us out of the corner of his mouth 'Sway on your balls lads, keep the circulation going'. I whispered back 'Well if you're going to flake out sir, fall forwards not backwards because your scabbard is pointing directly at my balls.' Some of the guys were making soft farmyard sounds to try and set Dave's shoulders shaking but he stood stalwartly, defender of the realm.

Anyway, some great memories on here, glad to see the plumbers are still shirty! (would that be Graham Marriot perchance?....) It's about 5 years since I last poled a glider around, as something called Golf came into my life. Also my son lives in Oz now and the yearly trek out there cattle class is enough flying for anybody. But I would like to leave you with a little tale of synchronicity...Since leaving the mob some years ago I became a professional musician, yes you say, a natural progression from aircraft engineer, but I digress. I became aware of a custom guitar maker called Neil Morgan who makes the most superb instruments. I finished up getting to know Neil and have done the Wembley Guitar show with him. He's not a musician by trade, he's a senior 747 captain. Which I thought closed some kind of circle. Strange uh?

Right, now I must search out the Lightning and Harrier threads.:)

[A2QFI]

Thing - check your PMs!

[Geehovah]

It all comes flooding back

[thing]

Someone mentioned the Sebastopol earlier on. It closed a few years ago but has now reopened if anyone's interested, they do an excellent steak and ale pie. I remember the Seb from the early 70's when Adrian and Pixie ran it. Adrian was an ex Sqdn Ldr and had the largest array of weapons I've ever seen hung up inside the pub. Every type of gun you could think of with it's attendant ammunition. Wouldn't do now of course but I have to keep reminding myself that this was 30 odd years ago.

Also does anyone remember Paddy Doran who ran the (White Hart?) at the end of the camp road? He was ex WO of the airmen's mess and had two gorgeous daughters one of whom I had the pleasure of escorting out at one time. What a dream that was, having a girlfriend who's dad owned a pub within staggering distance of your pit. The other pub I frequented was the Windmill, mainly because of the splendid landlady and the Black Horse in Tatt village, it being a motorbyke sort of place, and I was heavily into my bikes at the time. I can still smell the Autumn air riding back from the pub which started to tinge with burnt Avtur as you turned off the main road to the camp. Great days to be 18, own a fast bike, be solvent and have the whole world at your feet. Is it just me or was life more exciting back then?

[maxburner]

Thing,

I enjoyed reading your piece. I must have been there at the same time, as student pond life, as I fondly remember all the names you mention.

I can't say I enjoyed 228 OCU as a stude, partly because it was very hard work and it took me a little while to get up to speed with the jet, but when I went back a few years later on the QWI staff I had a great time. I certainly don't miss all the cold war exercises from the time - running around in gas masks and the hooter going off at 2am every other week. However, I did enjoy the mighty F4. In it's day it was THE jet.

Stay well.

[gareth herts]

Fascinating post there Thing - this is a great thread for someone like me who has always loved the aircraft but saw it from the other side of the fence as it were.

When I was a kid Robert Prest's fantastic book was rarely in the library near my home and it was usually yours truly who was reading it over and over. I'm interested to know what the background to the book was, if anyone can shed any light? Did you guys all know that he was going to be publishing the book? Does anyone have a photo of the man himself?

It's a wonderful read and still one of the best books about flying full-stop I believe.............damn, I might just have to read it again now!

Thanks

Gareth

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Some of the guys mentioned the late Mark Hanna in their responses.

I was lucky enough to go to G Del Colle with 56 Sqn on their exchange with the Italian F104s. My SATCO (Big Fat Moff) thought that as I spoke 'some' Italian, I could be of help to the sqn! Ali McKay (top guy), who was then OC 56 Sqn, thought that was a good idea, so off I went. Ended up being the ops clerk/assistant for the det and tried to help out where I could on the language front. The aircrew could not have been more helpful or tolerant, as I stumbled about trying to do the best I could. Anyway, I digress.

The last day of the det dawned and the F4s taxied out to depart back to the Wattisham. All proceeded to depart in fairly sporty fashion as was/is the norm with these things. One in particular sticks in my mind. The F4, piloted by Mark, came snorting across the pan, burners in, at v low level. So low in fact, that most of the jet was obscured from our view by the tails of the parked F104s in front of us! Those of you who are faimliar with the F104 will know just how small the tail is. Absolutely awesome, but had some the Italians jumping up and down in a mixture of joy and sheer fright!

Back at Wattisham, we were regularly treated to Mark flying the F4 with style. When an F4 departed RWY05 and at fairly low altitude commenced a perfect slow roll, it could only have been one pilot. The fact that he did it in an F4 in Delta fit made it all the more impressive!

Apologies for the slight thread creep here. I'm merely an air trafficker and rarely venture in to talk about the abilities or otherwise of pilots. But for me personally, Mark and his father Ray, were 2 of the finest pilots I have ever seen. Artists at work. RIP.

WJMcP

[thing]

MAXBURNER

It certainly was a beast, I was never lucky enough to fly in one but some of my mate's had jollies. Apparently it wouldn't go supersonic in level flight with a SUU-23 fitted, did you have to go into a shallow dive? I remember stude aircrew getting chopped, one day they are there, the next they're not. Mind you, some of them were bloody hopeless. There was one guy I remember who couldn't even taxi the thing. Then there was the hero who decided max mil was the way to get the beast rolling on the pan. I could go on but I don't know who's reading.........:cool:

GARETH

Bob Prest was the son of a Nigerian diplomat I believe, I read the book when it first came out. It is well written I must admit, but as a non operator, I couldn't vouch for the accuracy of it. More than anything I think it captures that period quite well. I don't know what official reaction to it was, don't forget I was a lowly erk and not privy to those sort of things! If you weren't in the RAF then you have to understand that it was very much an insular job, in that we didn't really know what the aircrew got up to, and I suspect they didn't know what we got up to. Not for any other reason than it's pretty intense being a fighter jock, it's also pretty intense fixing them, the Toom shed was nearly always a 24 hour operation, the radar guys in particular working very long hours. You were too knackered for any sort of interaction at the end of the day, although there were always plenty of beer calls where you could get to hear a few flying stories.

WEE JOCK

Talking about 104's, I was in Decci on Harriers when the 104's were there and there was a tale, whether apocryphal or not I don't know, of the Italian sentry (God those buggers were poorly paid, they used to hang around us for beers in the bar) who was bored early one morning guarding a flightline of 104's and took a swing on the pitot tube of one. Of course he bent it, and Italian logic being what it is, he decided that if he bent all of the other pitot probes then no one would notice.......

[A2QFI]

Not entirely apocryphal! My version is that it was F16s being ferried to Pakistan, night stopped in Greece. Bored sentry etc!

[gareth herts]

GARETH
Bob Prest was the son of a Nigerian diplomat I believe, I read the book when it first came out. It is well written I must admit, but as a non operator, I couldn't vouch for the accuracy of it. More than anything I think it captures that period quite well. I don't know what official reaction to it was, don't forget I was a lowly erk and not privy to those sort of things! If you weren't in the RAF then you have to understand that it was very much an insular job, in that we didn't really know what the aircrew got up to, and I suspect they didn't know what we got up to. Not for any other reason than it's pretty intense being a fighter jock, it's also pretty intense fixing them, the Toom shed was nearly always a 24 hour operation, the radar guys in particular working very long hours. You were too knackered for any sort of interaction at the end of the day, although there were always plenty of beer calls where you could get to hear a few flying stories.
Thanks for the reply Thing - I'd be interested to hear if anyone else knows any of the background.....
Cheers
G

[Zoom]

thing, good stuff, and I can add a few bits.

Arthur Vine's son used to fly Shacks at the same time, and I understand that it was a tad embarrasing for him to tell people, when asked what his dad did, that his father flew fighters!

Midi Hopper (nav) had a terrific scheme for avoiding FOD in the cockpit: he tied his pencils, protractors, rubbers, etc to bits of string which he taped to his helmet a la Oz cork hat. Looked amazing but not sure how well it worked.

Bob Prest's book, fun though it was, didn't go down very well with the navs, who get about 2 mentions in all. Good pilot, though. My dad employed and then sacked his brother, who then tried to sue for wrongful dismissal and lost.

The Phantom could easily go supersonic with the gun pod on, and with lots of other things on too.

Was your SATCO's first name I**? If so, he was a really good egg and air trafficker. I have often wondered where he ended up.

The Queen and Prince Phillip were at Coningsby in '76 to review 56's standard as the Squadron was reforming. After the parade Prince Phillip went to 41 Sqn first, where he wanted to change into his second No 1 jacket, it being more comfortable than the parade one. Unfortunately his aide had left that jacket on the aircraft so, while he sprinted off to get it, Phillip was chatting happily to the crews and twanging his braces. Later, in the OM (and you had to pay for the priviledge of dining with HM) we were all gathered up in the dining room and the sliding doors to No 2 Ante Room were opened to reveal the Royal Party about to enter. As they approached the dining room, HRH spotted a medal of some sort on someone's chest and shot off at a tangent to inspect it. HM huffed and said in irritation, 'Now where has that man gone?' They were both brilliant, by the way, spending quite a bit of time chatting to us spread over 2 ante rooms.

This reminds me of Princess Margaret's visit to Bruggen the year before. (Stop me if I have posted this before but I can't be bothered to look.) After the parade and aircraft and installations inspections, we repaired to the OM for drinks and lunch. (Did you know you had to pay for the priviledge of dining with HRH - 3 times in this case to include 2 practice lunches?) So there we were with our warm G&Ts and horse's necks (without ice as that was reserved for the wheels) waiting for the Big Entrance. The chief steward was also waiting, behind the scenes with a selection of spirits in crystal glasses with plenty of ice but the mixers still in the bottles to maximise the fizz - and, of course, the obligatory Chesterfield 100s (specially ordered, min NAAFI order 5000, apparently). Anyway, the Royal Party approached the bar door at which point the mixer bottles were opened, but one exploded all over the tray. Frantic cleaning up began as the Staish - unaware of this ghastly turn of events - turned to HRH and asked if she would care for a drink whilst gently waving in the direction of where the chief steward was supposed to be standing with his tray of chilled apertitifs. Shock, horror, there was nobody there, and a deathly silence descended on the room. Fortunately one of the stewards serving us was sharp enough to spot the CO's dilemma and flew across the room with his tray of warm drinks almost vertical, slopping all over the place. So the day was sort of saved but HRH was stuck with a warm, 45 minute old G&T with no ice until the pukka version arrived some time later. We didn't dare laugh - well, you remember who the Staish was, don't you? :=

[fantom]

Ok. enuff, enuff. You are all kids.
I claim XV431 as my own (although someone else was the ultimate unlucky one).
Anyone remember when that hooligan Harrier reversed into me in 1972? The verdict of the GCM was most unfortunate.
What became of the harrier person?
Blaireau's evidence cannot be trusted, by the way, because is he knows too much...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Had we actually recieved the developed P1154, this thread would never have started would it? Thank you so much, uncle Dennis!

[Zoom]

fantom
You have just given the game away and I now know your identity. Didn't you end up flying for Henry Ford? Somebody was asking after you on this site a couple of years back. I remember the Harrier incident well, being based at Bruggen at the time. The Harrier pilot was ..................... well, I just won't go there. Actually he was a good pilot - except when reversing!

And I have a feeling that J.. W..... claimed 431 later as his display steed. Or 432. Probably the latter. He made K.... G......'s feet bleed once when he foolishly went for a ride in the back during a practice.

Golf
Good thread, though. Would the P1154 thread been as much fun? And would the aeroplane?

[sharmine]

Thing "quote"

"made me want to join the RAF, as I vividly remember watching the Simon Dee show when he went for a supersonic flight in one of the first Tooms to be delivered to the UK"

Interesting that you were inspired to join the RAF:ugh: after seeing the Simon Dee show. He actually went for a flight in an RN toom out of Yeovilton. In return he invited a number of Yeovilton personnel along to see the show and I was one of them. Good show, both Lulu and Cliff Richard appeared. However the plane made the show and kept me busy for many years afterwards.

Sharmine :ok:

[thing]

Thing "quote"

"made me want to join the RAF, as I vividly remember watching the Simon Dee show when he went for a supersonic flight in one of the first Tooms to be delivered to the UK"

Interesting that you were inspired to join the RAF:ugh: after seeing the Simon Dee show. He actually went for a flight in an RN toom out of Yeovilton. In return he invited a number of Yeovilton personnel along to see the show and I was one of them. Good show, both Lulu and Cliff Richard appeared. However the plane made the show and kept me busy for many years afterwards.

Sharmine :ok:

Who in all seriousness joins the Navy? Oh....er....

Anyway, thanks for the heads up, it was just a big noisy aeroplane to me at that age and at 12 years old jets = RAF and boats = navy.

Funnily enough my cuz has just moved across to the Navy from the RAF. She's an ATC type and is marrying a fishead. She was married to an RAF jock but sadly that didn't work out, so she cast her eye seaward. I didn't know you could transfer between services like that. I know you can be attached but didn't know you could do the full cross dressing thing.

ZOOM

Middy was/is a great bloke, when me and my pal were chasing after his daughters he always made us most welcome. I can still see him sitting there in his dressing gown smoking his permanently lit Dunhills. He used to go to work on this bloody ancient moped, most incongruous.

SATCO? I was a jet techy. Didn't know any ATC folk. Wouldn't have spoken to them if I did. Apart from my cuz obviously.

[Navaleye]

F4 at MPA. 51°49'24.53"S 58°28'5.15"W Looks like they have adopted the unusual tactic of putting the gate guardian inside the main gate! That should confuse the Argies. Good looking facility by the way. Google Earth should give the Argie PIs something look at.

[Sonic Bam]

Thing
Regards from another instie Phixer.

Replaced many an ODU when at LEU - pain in the a... of a job. Two people needed to lift it into the cockpit! Same thing with the big bolts on the side of the ODU as the harm fixture, either they took a thread straight away or you were there for ages with cramp in your fingers/hands. And as for the AOA indexer on the 4K's, I was that man with the spanner (11/32" ?)tied to my ovie's. Heaven help you if you dropped it behind the instrument panel. Did it once, lesson learned. Pain definitely focuses the learning experience, PC brigade are definitely missing a trick in today's educational establishments.

Would have appreciated it if more of you growbags had tied your pens and pencils to yourselves. Too many hours wasted doing loose article checks. Also, couldn't you guys just admit you couldn't hit a barn door with a SUU instead of making us harm and harm again with the banner remaining the safest thing in the sky?

Worst job I had was finding and fixing a broken wire on the CADC connector that was causing the gunsight reticle to wander off when the radar locked up on the target for range. Two days upside down in the back LH bottom corner of the rear cockpit. Fun.

Newbie's always got the piss taken by making them jump up and down on the wing to get a signal out of the roll rate gyro when doing AFCS functions - could simulate a signal by wiggling the nose for pitch and yaw channels but no way could the weight of the average JT make an impression on the MLG oleos to simulate a roll disturbance.

It was a good aircraft to work on looking back. Cursed it at the time but it had great systems to learn your trade on. AFCS, AJB-7, INAS - all good analogue sytems that you could follow signal paths through and diagnose faults without trying to read a 32 bit data word or have the machine tell you what to replace.

Enough to bring a tear to glass eye .......

[thing]

Thing
Regards from another instie Phixer.

Replaced many an ODU when at LEU - pain in the a... of a job. Two people needed to lift it into the cockpit! Same thing with the big bolts on the side of the ODU as the harm fixture, either they took a thread straight away or you were there for ages with cramp in your fingers/hands. And as for the AOA indexer on the 4K's, I was that man with the spanner (11/32" ?)tied to my ovie's. Heaven help you if you dropped it behind the instrument panel. Did it once, lesson learned. Pain definitely focuses the learning experience, PC brigade are definitely missing a trick in today's educational establishments.

Would have appreciated it if more of you growbags had tied your pens and pencils to yourselves. Too many hours wasted doing loose article checks. Also, couldn't you guys just admit you couldn't hit a barn door with a SUU instead of making us harm and harm again with the banner remaining the safest thing in the sky?

Worst job I had was finding and fixing a broken wire on the CADC connector that was causing the gunsight reticle to wander off when the radar locked up on the target for range. Two days upside down in the back LH bottom corner of the rear cockpit. Fun.

Newbie's always got the piss taken by making them jump up and down on the wing to get a signal out of the roll rate gyro when doing AFCS functions - could simulate a signal by wiggling the nose for pitch and yaw channels but no way could the weight of the average JT make an impression on the MLG oleos to simulate a roll disturbance.

It was a good aircraft to work on looking back. Cursed it at the time but it had great systems to learn your trade on. AFCS, AJB-7, INAS - all good analogue sytems that you could follow signal paths through and diagnose faults without trying to read a 32 bit data word or have the machine tell you what to replace.

Enough to bring a tear to glass eye .......

Hi Bam, yeah I love the analogue stuff. You can visualise what's going wrong with analogue. Digital stuff may be better blahdy blah but from a satisfaction point of view you can't beat analogue. I finished up working on E3's just as they came into service and they were nicely analogue, with an engineer's panel for dessert. I wish somewhere like Duxford was nearby because I would be down there most weekends itching to rip instrument panels to bits. And of course, analogue smells good too. I mentioned working at Sealand earlier on on ODU's. When I'd greased enough palms to get my stripes they said 'Well we ought to move you and let you run a team' which I thought sounded good. So they moved me from ODU's to take over the................. LCOSS gyro and amp team. I could never get away from Toom stuff. I also did a stint running the AOA and CADC team too. But it was good gear and servo stuff, real man's toys, not this bloody poxy glass crap computer toy bollox. I reckon the only reason they introduced video game cockpits is because all the stude jocks have been raised on Playstations.

I have the same attitude to musical gear. The latest in guitar amplification is 'Digital Modelling' in which they...'Faithfully recreate the classic sounds of rock using state of the art sampling techniques'.....F.....g Bu....it. Give me a valve amp anyday and I'll show you what a guitar sounds like. And when they get hot, boy do they smell good. Hot valves, the smell of a generation. I worked on Firestreak A/A hittiles when I was on Lightnings. Believe it or not all the guidance systems were valve. Inadvertantly EMP proof too.


By the way, do you remember having to take the spine panel off to get at the pitch, roll and yaw accelerometers? It always seemed to have been raining when I had to get up there to do it. A dodgy experience at the best of times.

[Zoom]

Sorry, thing, the SATCO question was a spoof call. It was meant for Wee Jock.

It's good hearing from the blokes who worked on the machines; we flyers know most of the flying stories anyway, so let's have some more from you lads who kept the things going in the first place. BTW, I hope that you never felt under-appreciated because that was by no means the case. It might not have been said very often but it was all about teamwork at all levels; that's one of the many things about squadron life that I miss.

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Zoom,

Yes, the one and the same. A good boss, nice bloke and very sociable. Pointed me in the right direction career wise - even though I went on to become a fully fledged member of the flying prevention branch!! ;) I believe he was last seen working as airport manager in a tax haven in the middle of the Irish Sea.

WJMcP

[thing]

Sorry, thing, the SATCO question was a spoof call. It was meant for Wee Jock.

It's good hearing from the blokes who worked on the machines; we flyers know most of the flying stories anyway, so let's have some more from you lads who kept the things going in the first place. BTW, I hope that you never felt under-appreciated because that was by no means the case. It might not have been said very often but it was all about teamwork at all levels; that's one of the many things about squadron life that I miss.


I don't think anyone felt under-appreciated, I certainly didn't. I always felt 'part of the team' as it were. There were always moaners and whingers but that's the same in any walk of life. I used to wonder why some blokes had joined TBH. Theirs was always a glass half empty. What used to nark me the were the few idle sods that you get on any squadron who seemed to maintain an air of industry, whilst always making sure that the WO's teacup was filled, leaving the rest of us to get on with the real work. They usually got promoted nicely on time too. Still, at least I knew I had done a shifts work when I went home.

I could never brown nose for some reason, I used to watch people who were good at it and try and take notes but it never worked for me. I don't think I put enough effort into it. Let's put it this way, the people who I classed as friends included an SAC who told a WRAF officer who had got on his wrong side (which was both sides) that she needed 'F...... with the rough end of a pineapple'. I was his escort at the ensuing charge and when the charge was read out the whole room went into 'I want to laugh but I can't so I'll just make my shoulders shake and speak in a very strained voice ' mode.. Although they tried very hard not to. :) Perhaps I kept the wrong company...... Having said that, I had some excellent Chiefs as well as Sengo's and Jengo's. Well, maybe not Jengo's, they were just there for the learning process really and the signing of leave passes. Come to think of it, I was an escort at a court martial and I couldn't look a the defendant (who was a mate of mine) because we just kept creasing up, his counsel had the most appaling syrup and everytime he spoke the thing lifted off his head slightly.

Don't know if it was the same aircrew side.

[Zoom]

Wee Jock
Said SATCO had a great sense of awareness and seemed to be able to monitor 10 frequencies at one. Often when there was some airborne difficulty, occasionally involving me, he would just seem to materialise on air with the correct solution. Brilliant.

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Thing,

I worked on 74 Sqn during the early days on the F4J. Had a Welsh WO in charge of the engineers. He was a terrific Sqn WO, right out of the old school. Hard, but fair and got the job done.

Zoom,

You bet! He had the benefit of having a 'slave' of the comms installed in his office, so he could monitor his flock! First sign of trouble (almost daily at Wattisham) in he came. I remember one of the 56 Sqn jets coming back with a 'v' serious emergency. I think the pilot was GH. I understood that when he got back, he got a big pat on the back but was told that he should have thrown the jet away. My memory could be playing tricks on me, but thats how it comes back to me. I may be wrong and I'm sure someone will enlighten me. Beag's are you there?

WJMcP

[Krystal n chips]

Quirk of fate here it seems. Am currenly house clearing the family home as we are moving my mother to Suffolk. It's amazing what you find !. In this case, the complete set of Airframe course notes and schematics for the beast. Presumably, I dropped them off there years ago when, having done the course ( and nothing changes it seems ! ) some bluntie at Innsworth decided my services were needed on 431 MU instead of a Sqdn--which was a good tour I admit and where the serial number on the airframe ended up in the crew room after XV 431''s non standard return to earth.----so, some nostalgic reading ahead this winter.

Thread drift here and my apologies, however, it may be of interest to some.

Zoom,

I seem to recall you said you were in the camera ship when the mixed Gnat / Hunter formation got airborne at Valley ?. I have also found seven b/w shots of the event--two air/air shots are taken from below the formation, another from above with the formation entering light cu. Another shows the formation over Valley. The remaining two are of the Gnat line, as was, and taken from opposite ends on the day in question.

I can't scan these in here, but, if anybody can I will happily forward them for this purpose. If anybody is interested of course.

[johnfairr]

Anyone know when this august event will take place this year?

jf

[A2QFI]

A colleague tells me that it is held in a Central London pub, somewhere off Whitehall and that it is usually the Friday before Remembrance Sunday so this year Friday 10th November. I'd be there but I am going to Gib for their Parade on 12th

[SkidMX]

The 2006 F4 TDPU will indeed be on Fri 10 Nov in Central London.
The event is now held each year on the Fri before Remembrance Sunday, so book those important meetings in London early each year!

Attendance normally hits close to the 3 figure mark, & no-one has been arrested for singing 'The Flag' (yet!!)

Please e-mail me direct for location details, as I can't publish them on an open forum.
I will then also add you to my F4 Mafia mailing list.

Skid

[Dave Roome]

'Thing' has mistaken me for my namesake, methinks, when he talks about The Queen visiting Coningsby in 1976. I was on 23 Sqn at Wattisham then, but John Rooum was at Coningsby then and I think it must have been him 'swaying on his balls' or perhaps on the balls of his FEET!

[maxburner]

I was on that parade at Coningsby as a member of 56 as HM Queen presented the standard to the Sqn to mark the transition from Lightning to F4. I think I was a flt commander or some such thing. Whatever, it involved a bit of marching up and down and a bit of saluting and weeks of practise. It was bloody hot as I recall and the usual stupidity was much in evidence. We were having rehearsals in No 1 dress and with the temperatures hitting the high 90s people were sweating through the fabric then being bollocked for not having a pristine uniform for the big day. The p**s up afterwards was pretty good though.

Her Maj wore yellow and I wore blue, just in case you were wondering.

Maybe I'll see you for the TDPU Dave?

[IN10CT]

blaireau,

Do you remember surnames of the two Navs on the non stop? Did one begin with St.......?

.....and what happened to the First Day Covers?

My wife's uncle is the "Harry Davidson" mentioned earlier. He's still kickin' and a great person to talk to! He gave this to my wife and I thought I'd share it with you...
http://in10ct.cerberussys.com/images/jet_crossing_envelope_sm.jpg

[Jobza Guddun]

Some interesting videos shot by a spotter at Wildenrath 1992;

http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=12;t=24847

Not the greatest quality now but maybe some of you were involved.

JG

[Throb@30wCPDLC]

Good stuff

[Rev I. Tin]

Ah Wildenrath. Best tour I ever had.
Had a quiet couple of hours watching those vids. Brings it all back like it was yesterday.
Phantastic station back in the good old days of a real Air Force!

'Battle Flight to cockpit readiness' tick tock tick tock
Wobbly, RAF Cochem, Mally pasties, First Post, SLRs etc etc.
Anyone remember (much) about the Clutch Radar 10th Anniversary do in Dusseldorf?

Nice to see Mr Robinson and Cookie in Local (both looking much younger!) although I reckon that was definately me in the Runway Caravan, in every shot, honest, you can tell!

Rev I Tin
Wildenrath Air Traffic '87-'92

[621andy]

Have been following this great thread with interest. Love all the stories!
I remember going to airshows as a kid and seeing these huge beasts, along with Lightnings too- aahh the days when aircraft made a proper noise!

Talking of which, and going slightly off thread, I remember being at weston super mare airfield back in the 70s as a Lightning was doing it's stuff at the airshow. At that time, the crowd line was at the runways' edge. It ended with a VERY low level pass and vertical climb! The NOISE!:} the ground shook like an earthquake.. still think about it now... any ideas which a/c it was, and who would've been driving? Must've been somewhere around '76-'78.

Someone mentioned there was a specific Lightning thread here somewhere, but couldn't find it.

Andy

[Polikarpov]

Similar to the last post - I couldn't find a Lightning thread either, at least one that wasn't locked. So I'll post this here; apologies if incessant YouTubing grates but I was delighted to chance upon a snippet from the old series "Test Pilot", from a time when moustaches were worn with pride!

Anyway, flying the Lightning at the ETPS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-sDdVkGVDs), and another one with John Nichol and Mike Beachy Head at Thunder City (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH0wyujHoCs&NR), unsynched sound but still very watchable.

[MikeSmith1115]

Couldn't resisit a quick post on this on a lazy Friday afternoon in the office. It certainly brought back memories of the early 70s when I was at Coningsby spending most of my time ripping the radar apart for yet another case of 'wine glass birdies in PD'. (You had to be there).:ugh: :ugh:
In at 0530 to tow them out for the days flying - no question of noise abatement in those days. Burners in and a vertical climb over the quarters patch!! We were up, so why shouldn't everyone else be?
As someone said earlier, a pain in the proverbial to work on (I did insty and comms work as well), but it certainly taught me a lot.
Ah well!! Back to the in-tray!!!!:\

[mojocvh]

Thanks for that, sure brought back some memories, esp the Visage haircut in the Tower!! LOL

MoJo

[Jetex Jim]

I see your F4 bump glad rag.

The Luftwaffe, in their wisdom will keep some of their F4s a while longer. Hard to believe, but they will retire a squadron of Tornados instead and keep their last F4s to 2015. These have APG65 and AMRAAM BTW.

Woken up thursday morning by a pair, Typhoon and an F4 going around and around, over the house at about 2000ft. The whistle from the blc took me back 30 years to Leuchars.

And about my earliest childhood memory is looking up to watch the F4s older brother, the Voodoo flying overhead. Yikes, I'm old.

[Bakgat]

Nooooo....don't finish now......please,I beg of you.:{:{:ugh:

[MikeLimaBravo]

I second that Bakgat. The Toom anecdotes are excellent and coming from people of my era closely involved with the F4 they are a valuable link with comrades now sadly lost touch with. If there is anyone out there who remembers their time at Coningsby and in particular on 41Sqn between 1973 & 1976 I would love to hear from them. My own recollections are of a special kind of family you become on a squadron and the competition with other units. In the 70's we did amalgamate briefly as the 641st TAF during the Cyprus emergency and the bond was just as strong. Are any of you still alive and kicking, if so please let us share our memories with those who were not so fortunate to know those glorious times.

Seek & Destroy forever!

[soddim]

Yes, the 641st TFS in Cyprus was a fitting end to the multi-role days of the Coningsby F4 Wing. If I remember correctly, 54 had already regressed to single role AD and the majority of the aircrew were from 6 and 41. The multi-role abilities were appropriate because the priorities changed rapidly from GA to Recce to AD and back again almost twice each day and the armourers worked their backsides off changing loads that were never dropped by aircrew.

Sadly, in the early days, one of the senior officers boasted about 6 Sqn's night GA capability and NEOC had us sitting in the dispersal day and night.

However, once it was established that James Callaghan was never going to give the required clearance to deliver any of the ordinance by day or night, the field telephone on the beach of the sub aqua club was made full use of by the crews on readiness.

'Scramble the lightnings - Whee - Phut!'

[Lightning Mate]

Whee - Phut!'

Ah......memories......

AVPIN, but can't travel.

[Busta]

F4 multi role returned a little later; before going to defend the air around Stanley, we had to go and learn how to shoot holes in Lincolnshire.

When in theatre, every 30 days, skysplash etc were downloaded for servicing; we then whizzed off to W Falkland and downloaded 1200 rounds of HEI into a couple of unfortunate Pukaras.

Best fun you can have with your trousers on.

[A2QFI]

Also common on the PR9 which used the Lightning's engines minus the reheat. When it happened at Nairobi Civil (Embakasi) one was in for a long wait. We finished up with a white square painted in outline on the underside of each wing, near the engine; this was where the wing had to be thumped with a hide faced hammer to free some sticking valve. Most times this resulted this resulted in Whee - Whoosh and that strange smell, rather like apples that one got from AVPIN.

[soddim]

Ah, the hide-faced hammer! Remember a Flt Cdr on 19 cursing the skill of the hide-faced hammer operator. It was a dark and dirty night when the AOC scrambled the Leconfield Wing - after a recall from Friday happy hour I might add. After the usual Whee...Phut, said Flt Cdr was unstrapped and halfway down the ladder when he met the hide-faced hammer operator on the way up.
'Stay in the cockpit, Sir, I know where to hit it!'

He did, he did and it started - 45 mins later, two approaches and a dodgy landing from an ILS in Amber/Red Wx and that operator was not the Flt Cdr's favourite.

I know, thread creep WIWOL.

[MikeLimaBravo]

I noticed somewhat earlier in these threads mention of a crew that banged out following rollers at Coningsby. One of the crew came down in the 'pits' just outside the perimiter and both were picked up very quickly and taken to the SMC for a check up. The aircraft however, continued on its merry way slowly dropping a wing as the effects of only having one engine providing thrust took hold. The disturbing thing was it looked for a moment as though it might complete a 180 and return to the airfield. As it got lower a wing caught the top of a tree and it met Mother Earth after connecting with the corner of a house, the occupants comments were recorded in the earlier thread! The said house was on the bank of the river and as the toom impacted, one wing stayed on the west bank ( Lincolnshire not Palastine ) the other wing complete with undercarriage sliced into the field on the opposite side and the whole fusalage entered the river running North to South, 9 points for technical merit.

In order for the crash guard to reach the other side of the river, a rope was slung across and a boat was obtained, complete with oars, to provide a means of propulsion. Unfortunately, the crash guard were RAF and not RN and halfway across the co-ordination was lost, along with the oars, resulting in much profane language as to who was at fault. Meanwhile, the river current was doing its own thing and carried the boat and occupants down stream still swearing, only now it was getting fainter as they got further away. If it wasn't for the bridge lower down abruptly ending their voyage it could have been a task for ASR! Thankfully both Aircrew and the crash guard survived the experience.

[Kouncil House Kid]

Don't suppose any of you fine F4 chaps can help me out? I'm trying to find a picture of the 'Cartoon' Phantom. I seem to remember he has his hat pulled dowm over his eyes. Anyway, if you know what I'm talking about please help. If not, I stand ready for a kicking. TVM

[soddim]

A quick google found the following web page with a couple of examples of what you are looking for:

The Phantom picture archive (http://www.f4phantoms.co.uk/)

[fantom]

It is 'Spook' to whom you refer.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/spook.jpg

[cornish-stormrider]

Alas I am but a yoof and the closest I got was the three?? that were parked on the lazy runway outside the old 11 (ex 23) HAS site at Leeming.

Big and ugly but looked far sexier than the panavia cr4p I was forced to work on.

I am that sad a spotter type now I am building a 1/72 RF-4E from Mr Revell......

It has been a hoot reading all the tales of derring do, better by far than some of the books I've bought.

[brickhistory]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/241882-desert-storm-wild-weasel-tales-4.html

Then-Captain Kevin Hale, an EWO in the 561st recalled that he was ‘cottonmouthed’ the whole time from take-off to touchdown. He was in Captain Jack Patterson’s pit in the seventh jet, callsign Lonestar 43, of the 16 headed to Baghdad.

We were briefed to expect twenty percent losses. That is a sobering statistic.

We hit the tanker as fragged [directed by the ATO portion or ‘frag’], then flew in a long trail formation with about 7 nautical miles between jets. I was in the back, head down running the scopes when Jack said, “Ooh, look at that.” There were tracers everywhere!

Jack jinked and turned the jet, but all that cost us altitude and airspeed until we wound up at about 12 thousand feet. We had to climb back up and that was a long climb….

We heard the first MiG call as we were heading north from the south of Baghdad. At around 0320, we saw a spear of burning smoke pointed right at us. That was awe inspiring.

The ‘burning smoke’ was F-15C pilot Captain Steve Tate’s AIM-7 Sparrow kill of an Iraqi F1 sent to intercept the string of Weasels. Detected by the E-3 AWACS’ long-range radar, the controller aboard the Boeing-built jet vectored Tate’s flight into position. Tate acquired the F1 on his radar, locked it up and called “Fox One” as he pickled the Sparrow. Seconds later, the unlucky Iraqi pilot died in the fireball.

Major Bart Quinn led an eight ship of 81st TFS F-4Gs in support of F-117s and F-111s attacking the Salman Pak chemical and biological warfare (CBW) production and storage site located to the southeast of Baghdad. His strike package was a few minutes behind the opening attacks on Baghdad. Such was the importance placed on destroying the stocks of biological and chemical weapons stored at the target area, that even though the initial wave would undoubtedly stir up the air defenses, Salman Pak had to be hit to prevent those stockpiles from being disbursed and used against Coalition forces.

One of the concerns for the F-117s was the belief that the Iraqis had moved at least one battery of the Kuwaiti I-HAWK (Improved Homing All the Way Killer) SAM from the conquered country to the Salman Pak area. The HAWK’s continous wave targeting radar could track the ‘Nighthawks’ better than the more common pulsed radars, so the F-117s were a little nervous about being vulnerable. Quinn’s flight was briefed to watch for the HAWK.

Additionally, two SA-3 sites were located to the northeast and northwest of the target area and were a real concern to the non-stealth F-111 ‘Aardvarks’ who would go in at low level to hit the CBW bunkers. Says Bart Quinn of the mission:

The F-111s were going in fairly low in order to lob their laser guided bombs into the entrances of the storage bunkers. The theory was that the bomb would penetrate the door and fry any ‘bugs’ inside, thus destroying them immediately. The problem was that there were dozens of threats in the immediate area, including an SA-8 at the F-111s release point. The -8 is a fearsome weapon particularly at low to medium altitudes. We had to make sure we got anything that could target the strikers.

During the mission planning, the EWOs, led by mine, Ken ‘Howdy’ Hanson, divided up the threats among the flight, taking the highest priority ones in order depending on what stage of the strike we were on at any given moment.

Vinnie Quinn [no relation], our Fighter Weapons School graduate, took a look at my chart and just muttered “Schweinfurt.” [During World War II, the ball bearing plants located in that German city were a prime target of the American heavy bomber campaign. The Germans knew it was valuable and had placed unbelievably heavy concentrations of flak and fighter airfields in the area to protect it. The first such mission cost 60 bombers each with a crew of 10. It became known as ‘Black Thursday’ because of the horrendous losses.]

‘Victor’ Ballanco told me that the computer models estimated that we’d lose 30 percent of our force that first night. That gets your attention in a hurry as I briefed the 15 other guys in my Weasel mission.

From the beginning, fuel was a concern. The planning was tight the whole way in and out. I told everyone that we just did not have the gas to deal with any MiGs encountered or if anyone went down, there could be no RESCAP, we just had to leave whoever it was and press.

Stepping to my jet, I couldn’t get the APR-47 repeater scope on my dash to dim. It was so bright I couldn’t see the other instruments. Rather than go to another jet and risk missing the take-off, I taped my right flight glove over the scope and told Ken what I was doing. The -47 scope was my primary threat warning receiver, but I knew Ken could take care of us and there was no way I was going to miss this flight.

We met our tankers as fragged, about 100 miles south of the Iraqi border. The tracks were designed to be that far to keep the Iraqis guessing about our actions. Unfortunately, that’s a long drive when fuel is tight. To their credit, those tankers flew us much closer to the border than they were supposed to, thus letting us get as much gas into us as possible. I really appreciated that from them.

The whole time on the tanker and heading north, the flight kept expecting to hear the ‘abort’ code word, but since I knew that the first bombs had already dropped, I knew we were going.

We were in a line astern formation, with me at about 20 thousand feet and the rest of the jets stepped up in altitude into the high 20s. As we crossed the border, I remember saying to Howdy “This is it.”

At about that time, I caught some chatter between my # 2 and # 4 about air-to-air missiles. I wasn’t exactly sure what they were referring to, but I told them to “disregard and press.”

About then, I saw off my left wing a large, green explosion. Looking like liquid metal, the first thought I had was that it was a flare the Iraqis had set off to see us. Of course, it was really triple A. From then on, the fire was just constant.

At Nasiriyah, I saw a cloud which was unusual because the night was clear everywhere else. That cloud was actually the remnants of the 57mm AAA gun powder. I realized I had to go through that cloud and the intense, continuous barrage AAA.

I was scared, but what I remember most is that I didn’t want to **** up or make a mistake that cost somebody else. My throat was so tight it hurt; it was like my adenoids were growing. I said to Howdy that “here we are at the cradle of civilization and we’re gonna blow it up.”

As we got to the target area, I called “Buntari” which was the code for the Weasels that they were cleared to fire.

It was about then that Derek Knight, in my #4 saw a MiG taking off below us, but as briefed, we couldn’t do anything about it due to fuel.

We set up an orbit between the Euphrates River to the south and the Tigris to the north. In the orbit, we always had at least an element facing toward the target area and the threats.

Outside it is just mayhem. SAMs are going off unguided, just long streaks of flame, the triple A tracers with their greenish flashes and sparkles, I can see cars driving along roads, and the city lights are still on. I peeked underneath the glove hiding my APR-47 scope and it looked like a bowl of Cheerios had been spilled on the screen, so thick were the threats of SA-6s and -8s.

Howdy shot at the SA-8 which went down at the right time, but we don’t know for sure that we killed him. I forgot about the HARM’s exhaust and didn’t have the motors in mil[itary power – full power without using afterburner]. Using mil kept them from air starvation in the event of ingesting missile exhaust, but I just forgot until I had one flame out. I quickly got it re-lit and pressed on.

After the war, one of the F-111 drivers contacted Howdy and thanked him for taking out that SA-8 since he had to fly right at the SAMs position to loft his bombs. That was nice thing for the guy to do and made us feel good about the job.

[Kouncil House Kid]

fantom / soddim

Many thanks - 'spook' was the keyword that broke the code on google images and I'm grateful for the weblink to the archive.

fly safely.

[Ten West]

:D What an excellent thread!

I've loved the F4 ever since I first saw one as a kid. Such an ugly yet beautiful aeroplane. And as someone else said, it looks ready to pick a fight even when it's sat on the ground! A classic indeed.

Many thanks to all those that have contributed their memories and anecdotes. It's made the quiet moments on my recent night shifts far more entertaining!

Phabulous Phantoms Phorever! :ok:

10W.

[nelly31]

I spent a large part of my formative years around the F4 fraternity and at the tender age of 17 I was very fortunate to be given the chance to fly in one with my father. A truly unforgettable experience that firmly cemented my ambition to become a pilot. I am now a 3000 hour GR4 QWI and even though I have thoroughly enjoyed every hour of my own career nothing will compare to charging around the North German plain looking for targets and having no earthly clue as to what was going on. No change there for a mud mover I hear you all say!! I wish my father were still alive to share some of his stories with this thread.

[brickhistory]

There is a gathering of Phantom fans to occur at Holloman AFB, NM in October of this year.

From the registration list so far (yes, I am attending) I see participants from the UK and Australia as well as America.

Besides QF-4 ops tours and flights, there will be tours of the F-22 and Tornado operations as well.

Pity it's in Alamogordo and not, say, Vegas or San Diego.

[brickhistory]

YouTube - F-4F Phantom Formation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuY08V44uGM&feature=related)

Not my taste in music, but good to see the F-4 still in the sky courtesy of the Germans.

YouTube - F-4F Phantom dogfight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiFnwiV0iTA&feature=related)

YouTube - F-4F Phantom at Goose Bay (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrQwz2ZobwU&feature=related)

[Geehovah]

Archiving some old pictures I came across a few that even I'd forgotten. Here's a picture of the original trial on 56 of the "grey goose". One of MGs trials, this turned into "Air Defence Grey". In fact I have a pic of the radome still painted black somewhere.

Apologies for the quality. My box brownie wasn't that good in those days and 30 years haven't helped.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/GreyGoose1.jpg

[Double Zero]

This is a gem of a thread !

From a slightly different perspective, I trained first as a fitter on Mr.Camm's finest.

He may have designed wonderful 'if it looks right it is right' aeroplanes, but he certainly didn't bother too much about the fitter's role, skinned knuckles and a rich vocabulary were essential items if working on a Camm design, especially the Hunter and to a slightly lesser extent Harrier 1 / AV-8A ( the Hawk is a bit more friendly due to its' role ).

One day I had the misfortune to be transiting through Brough after Harrier trials in Scotland ( I was a technical photographer long since ) and managed to get a look at some Phantoms being overhauled.

The thing which made a big impression on me was the row of opening panels along the spine, panels everywhere it seemed, designed for real not double-jointed people 'in the field'.

What with that and the similar approach - and actually designed cockpit, rather than the British approach of ' coating everything with adhesive, then firing the instruments all at once from a big gun ' on the Harrier II, I'm quite a fan of the U.S. Approach to combat aircraft.

[Dark Helmet]

Double Zero,

Ah, but what you failed to spot is that every access panel was a stressed panel. Which means they had hundreds of 'hi-torq' screws per panel - 90% of which had to be drilled out! A sharp drill bit and a good set of 'easy-outs' were the Riggers' friends!

Happy days!

[BEagle]

As a pilot who overstressed one of the Crows' aircraft at Wattisham in the early 80s discovered when he was 'invited' to assist the gingers with removing and replacing the necessary panels for the overstress check!

[Geehovah]

And of course the most famous of them all "The Raspberry Ripple". This scheme only lasted a few weeks after the event. What most people didnt know at the time was there were two of them XV486 and XV424, the latter taking the main event. The beautifully hand-painted RAF crest on the intake ramp didn't survive first contact.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/AB5.jpg


Imagine my shame carrying out LLOLPIs in LFA7 against a formation of Buccaneers:

"Who's a Pretty Boy Then?" on Guard:}

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/AB2.jpg

[Double Zero]

Dark Helmet

I take your point, may have noticed they were stressed panels at the time, but rosy memory vision blotted that out...whoever called those things 'high torque' fasteners ought to be shot !

Once I was waiting to photograph a new mark of export Hawk's cockpits for pilot briefing, 2 apprentices were finishing off the floor ramps; suddenly there was a horrible graunching sound as a hi-torque fastener met its' maker - the guilty party called to his chum in the other cockpit, " Christ are we in trouble now ! " the quick reply was "What do you mean 'we' ? !

Beagle

I know the feeling, we were running one of the early FRS2 ( as then) trials, due to a union dispute we had no groundcrew, so were running on 'in the field' rules; the service T.P. had been told only to use water injection in emergency.

As he returned from his range sortie, he was told by the tower there was a bunch of schoolgirls visiting...and went into the hover routine complete with a bow to the adoring audience.

The Flight Test engineer clapped his hand to his forehead, and the pilot ended up with an even more accurate idea of what 50 gallons of distilled water feels like to lift...

[XV490]

Talking of 'dark helmets' and Phantoms, over on the 74 Sqn association's website (http://www.74squadron.org.uk/Documents/hot_news_page.htm), there's a rather fetching 'Tiger' lid up for grabs, apparently a Gentex model from the F4J days.

Anyone here ever wear one of these? Comfy?

[Tashengurt]

Caught the tail end of the Phantom era at Leu and thoroughly enjoyed it. APC with a trip flown by OC43. Sick as a dog I was and compounded it by trying to hide the puke bag in my speed jeans. As a squipper I really should have known better!
Spent many a cold wet night sat on the end of runway waiting to pick up brake chutes. Was never overly impressed by the wags who pointed the chutes at us then released them with a blip of the throttles. Those shackles were bloody lethal!
Good times though. Of the four years I spent on 43 the Phantom months were some of the most memorable (Op granby excepted)

[RedhillPhil]

As a mere lad of 15 in 1965 at the Gaydon BoB Saturday I stood in awe of a pair of Phantoms from -I think - Alconbury. Of all the things about them my abiding memory is the amount of stencils that they were covered in.
Lying in my bed the next morning - probably saying hello to Mrs. Hand and her five lovely daughters - what sounded like a huge bomb going off above 40 Southam Crescent followed by a huu-uuge amount of noise had me leaping out of me pit and straining up at the sky.
It was the Phantoms heading home. Pa (A/ATC) was impressed when he got home, "Christ those Phantoms can shift" was his comment.
Whenever I see a piccy of one parked from the front three-quarter view it always looks like something out of Star Wars - so does a Victor for that matter.

[claron]

New here, but found this thread today. What memories.
Newly arrived LAC straight from training, and my first job on the line top up the gasses on the rasperry ripple,XV424 seem to remember 56(F) call sign "Delta", and long night polishing her at cease flying. 5 happy years, and many great memoires, of the tomb. Queen of the skies!!

[soddim]

Yes, and what a weapons system in its' day.

Will always remember the reaction of the crowd at a firepower demo in Epi Bay - the pair of polystyrene rafts had already been attacked by Buccs with BL755 when we went down the dive as a pair in line abreast each firing 300 rounds of 23mm ball from the SUU-23. 6000 rounds per minute each picked both rafts out of the water, spun them around and left little bits floating.

Also the Skywatch demo for the BBC on Salisbury Plain when our leader loosed off a long burst into the MT coach primed with petrol.

The odd Skyflash firing off a QRA scramble proved quite reassuring too - in those days we had a weapons system that worked almost straight out of the box. Never catch on!

[Deep Throat]

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox/images/chapter07/f4_fylingdales.jpg

...... with a story behind it :)

...... and the next 2 in the sequence were 'interesting'

W Mark Felt

[Geehovah]

^^^^^^^^^^
DC in the lead aircraft IIRC

Maxburner may have been involved?

[Geehovah]

For any F4 fans here's a copy of a video I put together recently.

If anyone was involved in the F3/F4 Handover sortie, please let me know and I'll drop you a copy (without the audio glitch).

Anyone not involved, feel free to drop a few £ to Help For Heroes if you decide to download it!

UK Tornado F3 Videos :: 56Handover.mp4 video by DeeGee - Photobucket (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/UK%20Tornado%20F3%20Videos/?action=view&current=56Handover.mp4)

[pavespike]

Can anyone help locate the parts manuals for a FG.1 Phantom.

[alibongo]

Try Spook Beattie on the Tremblers FB page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/35158756023/

[Tailspin Turtle]

At the risk of being called a spotter, and wearing my shabbiest anorak, here we go. Yes, the Spey-engined FGR2 could use both 7th and 12th stage air for boundary layer control. However, if I recall correctly, the on-speed was only 3 kts slower using both, and it casued the TGT to rise a few degrees thus adding wear and tear on the engines. So, a Bleed Control Switch was used in the Isolate position to select 7th stage air only. I'm a little hazy here in that it could have been 12th stage only, but I think I'm right in saying 7th.

The Spey F-4 BLC air was originally provided by either the 7th or 12th stage bleed, depending on the amount of throttle required on approach, which affected the bleed-air pressure. However, early in flight test at Edwards we discovered that the switching point was close enough to on-speed that it was either too much or too little. As a result, the bleed source would switch back and forth, resulting in "uncommanded thrust changes in condition PA". It was apparently solved by eliminating the automatic switching feature. This was just one of the surprises that resulted from "putting a proven engine in a proven airframe".

[27mm]

12th stage bleed made flying a formation approach on the wing interesting, in that power changes not only made the usual fwd/aft movement, but also up and down, as BLC induced lift changed.

[Dark Helmet]

Very interesting. Never knew about that aspect of the BLC. As a Phixer I just know that it burnt my hand if I touched the duct by accident!

[wiggy]

Tailspin Turtle...the bleed source would switch back and forth, resulting in "uncommanded thrust changes in condition PA". It was apparently solved by eliminating the automatic switching feature.



Must admit it's going back a long time and my memory might be playing tricks but I have the hazy recollection that the F-4Ms (FGR 2s) retained the feature but with the option to switch it off or manually overriding it.

[nipva]

With the FGR2 if you found yourself a bit tight on the finals turn I found that switching to 12th stage could tuck you in nicely thus avoiding the embarrassment of flying through the centreline.

[Dominator2]

With the FGR2 if you found yourself a bit tight on the finals turn I found that switching to 12th stage could tuck you in nicely thus avoiding the embarrassment of flying through the centreline.

Just pull harder. The jet was fine at 22 units! Even good a bit higher if you could put up with the pedal shaker.

[Courtney Mil]

Must admit it's going back a long time and my memory might be playing tricks but I have the hazy recollection that the F-4Ms (FGR 2s) retained the feature but with the option to switch it off or manually overriding it.

Spot on, Buddy. Twelfth Stage Iolate switch forces the system to stay in 7th stage. FG1 went to 7th stage at mil power.

[walbut]

If I remember rightly the bleed system was locked in 12th stage with full flap selected to avoid changing stages on approach. On the FG Mk 1 aircraft I think when the nose leg was fully extended, 12th stage was overridden automatically and the system was locked in 7th stage so that maximum thrust was available on the catapult. In normal flaps up, and I think half flap, the system operated in 7th stage when the pressure was above 85 psig and 12th stage when it was below that figure.

In the mid to late 80's I attended at meeting at Boscombe Down to discuss a hot weather trial in Cyprus to extend the maximum all up weight for approach conditions. I can't remember whether this was for single engined or twin engined approaches but one of the problems was that at high AUW and high OAT you could end up needing a thrust somewhere between Mil power and Min reheat which was quite a big step. The proposal was to play tunes on the bleed stage selection in order to try and bridge the gap. I got a bit concerned about what was being proposed for the trial as there seemed to be some risk that the pressures could drop to the point where boundary layer control (BLC) became ineffective. In this respect I was being overly cautious by drawing on my 'other aircraft' background which was the Buccaneer, where loss of BLC pressure on approach could be catastrophic.

Don Headley politely told me to get back into my systems engineers box and leave the handling aspects to him and the aerodynamicists. ( I think he was a bit concerned about the prospect of missing out on a trip to Cyprus) However he was quite right. In the Buccaneer it was primarily the trailing edge of the wing that was 'blown' and loss of BLC pressure resulted in the aircraft pitching up, increasing the angle of attack and aggravating the stall. In a Phantom it is primarily the leading edge of the wing that is blown so loss of BLC pressure is much more benign since the aircraft will pitch down rather than up.

I was also involved in a major investigation into failures of the engine bleed off-take ducting, a piece of pipework known to us as the Dalek duct which sat under the engine and connected to the trailing edge BLC duct outboard and the leading edge and ECS ducting in the keel. This duct used to break at the trailing edge connection resulting in hot air leaks and fire warnings. There were also failures of the brackets holding the bleed air ducts inside the bypass casing.

Rolls Royce proposed a joint trial at Holme on Spalding Moor where they would strain gauge their brackets and we would strain gauge the off-take duct. The instrumentation strain gauge data would be transmitted directly back to Derby over the telephone system for analysis. This was state of the art rocket science around 1980. The strain gauged engine and duct were fitted and we ran the aircraft but the phone system would not transmit the data fast enough so the proposed trial was initially a failure. However in co-operation with the Rolls Royce rep, Alan Shinwell, we proposed an alternative method to fix a number dial gauges under the engine on a dexion bridge and observe the movement of the ducting during an engine run. The Rolls Royce Derby instrumentation engineers were horrified at this idea, saying this was a development engine and much too dangerous. However we said if they had been happy enough to fit this engine in our aircraft, albeit only for ground runs it could not be that risky.

The ground runs took place and it quickly became clear what the problem was. At high power setting the engine moved forward slightly under the thrust loads and twisted about the inboard thrust mount. The core of the engine expanded backwards and the result of these two effects was that the bleed offtake duct was being loaded in torsion, i.e. twisted, but the bellows at the trailing edge connection were not designed to tolerate torsion, only bending. As a result of the trial we proposed a modified bleed offtake duct which had a sealed bearing and would allow the torsional movement. However MoD decided it was too expensive and persisted with the occasional failure of the original duct.

Standing directly under a Phantom Spey running in max reheat was always an exciting event. I can remember Alan Shinwell telling me that the pressures and temperatures inside the bypass duct on the Spey were higher than in a Lancashire boiler, which was I think typically about 20 times thicker than the bypass duct.

Walbut

[27mm]

Amen to that Walbut. Had a bypass duct blow on me in a 92 Sqn F4 on a Taceval mission. Bust some fuel lines, causing my wingy to ask me if I had burner lit. On replying negative, he said "well, in that case, you're on fire then". We legged it to Laarbruch, jammed it into the cable. By the time I was down the ladder, my trusty WSO was already halfway through his first fag on the grass by the rwy........

[tomdocherty72]

I am researching the use of the F-4 Phantom by the USMC and hope to make contact with those who flew it to gather recollections and information. If you think you can help me please send me a private message and I will give you details of what I want to know.

[Rhino power]

The USMC F-4 group on facebook might be worth a try?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/268388301611/

-RP

[tomdocherty72]

Thanks Rhino power, will follow that up.

[Busta]

The F4 TDPU looms.