Grumman Cheetah..any thoughts

[ozplane]

I was thinking about buying a Cheetah and I wondered if any ppruners had experience in operating them off a grass strip. I will usually fly two-up so it won't be operating at max AUW. I've read that they work best at fairly high cruise rpm (2700?). Any thoughts on this and what TAS do you get for that? Real figures rather than book values. All help gratefully received.

[LowNSlow]

I assume you're after an AA-5A ozplane as the AA-5 Traveller is not that great a short field aeroplane. The AA-5A has a significantly larger tailplane which enhances it's short field performance. We had a chap with a Traveller on our strip which is 550m. If he was going to fly with a passenger he would fly to a longer strip to collect them which sums it up I think.

I did a few hours in AA-5A's and I think they are far superior to a PA-28 especially in terms of general handling, visibility and cruise. From memory, loaded to MAUW and 2,300 rpm would see about 95 knts IAS and that was with an engine that was nearly at TBO. It was a few years ago so there is room for possible correction there.

[Oscar Duece]

I've spent a lot of time in AA5's and yes they are superior to the Pa28 flying barge.
If it's a grass strip I would avoid the Traveler, as LnS said. I know one is based at Popham, but if it's a shorter strip a Cheetah or even a Tiger is best.
I don't think they trade for different values, just the usual a & e times.
But if your only flying 2 up, either will be fine.

The cabin is far better that a Pa28, with plenty of room, big sliding canopy and a fuel gauge / switch you can actually see.

Some poeple go on about the castoring nose wheel and tell you it'll cost you in brake pads. But thats horse deposit.

Other than that there's not much to say. I don't know of any vices. Standard reliable Lycoming, with normal fuel burn and a better turn of speed than its rivals (the best, I belive). and a shorter wing span as well ?. Yes this means it's not cleared for spinning, but heh, it's not an aero machine.

Go for it, a wothwhile investment

[Timothy]

IMHO the AA5B is a much nicer aeroplane than the AA5A, though a little more expensive to buy and run.

Timothy

[ozplane]

Thanks chaps. I take the point about the Tiger v the Cheetah but there's also quite a difference in purchase cost. About 2 Garmin 430s and a Mode S transponders' worth, not that I'm intending to over-egg the pudding to that extent.

[360BakTrak]

I used to fly an AA5 Traveller out of Popham a few years ago.
As stated above it can become a little under-powered but I never had any great problems operating out of Popham...you just had to take care if you were 4 up, particularly on a hot/calm day!
Fantastic machine though...much preferred it to the standard PA28's, and its got a cracking roll rate!!:ok:
I used to get around 100-105 Kts in the cruise at 2500 rpm and it would go for around 500-600 Nm...although my memory is a little vague on precise figures!
If money is no object then I've heard great things about those newer AG5B things (a more modern Tiger from what I can make out!):}

[foghorn]

I own a share in an Tiger at Biggin and I have 70+ hours Cheetah time in my logbook.

They are wonderful aircraft to fly - excellent all round visibility, roomy cabins and well-balanced responsive controls. Flying a PA28 after you've been flying an AA5 seems like moving from a ferrari to a bathtub :p

AA5As do feel a little underpowered compared to PA28s on climb out - ROC can be an issue when fully loaded on hot days - the extra 10 hp that Warriors have seems to make quite a difference. However once in the cruise a 150hp Cheetah will often outrun a 160hp PA28.

(As an aside a Tiger will easily outclimb and outrun a comparable 180hp PA28, and ours gives some twins a run for their money in ROC :}).

The free castoring nosewheel takes a few minutes to get used to, but it's like riding a bike once you know how. The bit about the brakepads is horse droppings, as has been said.

The only real gotcha is the landing distance which is a bit longer than your run of the mill spamcans. AA5s just don't want to stop flying and will float into the next county prior to touchdown if you let them, speed control and getting the back wheels down quickly is important with short fields.

Try to get a later model if you can, as certain early ones had de-lamination problems - most should have had this fixed by now, but you can't be 100% sure unless you buy a 1978+ model. Also watch for ex-flying school ones that have been through the wars.

cheers!
foggy

[Timothy]

About 2 Garmin 430s and a Mode S transponders' worthI am very surprised to hear that the difference is that great. I would have thought that an average A would be £20-£25K, a B £25-30K and a pair of 430s and a Mode S about £15K.

Which bit have I got wrong?The free castoring nosewheel takes a few minutes to get used to, but it's like riding a bike once you know how. The bit about the brakepads is horse droppings, as has been said.However, if you get a brake failure, as I once did on the runway at EGMC, you are well f**ked, and need wing walkers to get to the apron.

Timothy

[High Wing Drifter]

Hi,

I have an AA5A Cheetah share. Probably repeating the above, but in my words:

Pros:
1) Visibility is superb! Even at Vx you can see the good chunk of land in front of you.

2) The speed. We can cruise at 95kts/2000' 52% power. That equates to about 29ltrs/hr.

3) Handling is delightfully light and easy. It is finicky compared to PA-28s and C152s. However, you soon learn to love the flickability and sheer think-it-and-happens feel to them.

4) Castoring nose wheel will allow you to simply swivel the plan in place 360 degs.

5) Many come with a simple Century 1 wing level/NAV tracking autopilot. Can be handy.

Cons:

1) Lower margins for error. You just cannot get away with flat landings. Main wheels only and do not over flare as it is possible to trail-scrape. Check that the rear tie-down has not been flat spotted. A sure sign. A few knots too fast and you float. Control authority fades rapidly if let the needle wander below 65 knots Vref. Will encourage more precise piloting though.

2) Inexperienced pilots have been known to get into PIOs.

3) It is 150 horse power, but they are ponies not wild stallions. T/O and Climb performance is not class leading. If you wan't to get into 400 meters make sure you have the conditions and the weight to get back out with all the safety factors applied!

4) It has four seats but endurance will be seriously reduced with four adults. Not a practical option IMHO.

5) The flap switch is of the worst imaginable design. It is quite frankly crazy. However, it is possible to get comfortable with its operation.

6) No spins, no aeros.

In summary. A lovely snappy and very responsive plane to fly, just requires a little more precision than the competition.

As for operating the thing. I generally potter about at 2200rpm (52%). The book says 130kts at 2700 (87%). Not had the inclincation to try this out. I have no reason to doubt it as our's does generally perform to the book.

Unless I wanted a complex type, my next plane will be Tiger :)

[Flyin'Dutch']

Only experience I have is with the Traveler. Nice crisp handling and no more difficult to fly than a PA28/172 contrary to what some try to proclaim.

Have to disagree with the person who said they were more spacy than aa PA28, they must fly them with the canopy open! (A nice treat on a hot day for sure)

Prop clearance not fantastic and can suffer a bit further if the grass is a bit uneven but many live a happy life at grass airfields and strips.

The airframe is more efficient in the cruise than what Pipers and Cessnas seem to perform on similar engines and fuel burns.

If you find a good one and you like it, go for it.

FD

[smallpilot]

I have 100+ hours on AA5-A's and echo nearly all the positive comments on here, easy to fly, far more responsive than my friend's PA28 and way better vis. And of course you can even open up the canopy in-flight -that was a godsend on some of those hot days last summer, flying back from the PFA at kemble with the 2000' temp at 29 deg was very refreshing!
As a rule of thumb I never go into grass strips under 600m and only 2-up, but i've done 3-up (almost at max weight) in + out of Old Buck (700m tarmac) with no probs at all. You do have to watch the w+b and if you go 4-up you need to be carrying a couple of lightweights and not max fuel (up to tabs is ok if you have the 199 litre tank). All in all its a great plane and i'd buy one tomorrow if i could afford it!

[Yankee]

Nice to see all those that have flown the AA5 series of aircraft appreciate the superior handing qualities of these aircraft. As a pervious part owner (since 1984) of an AA5 Traveler and now an AA5B Tiger I’ll echo every ones else’s comments. However there is one point worth mentioning about the 150hp AA5/A’s and that is there is a STC mod. accepted by the CAA for increasing the HP. Look up http://precisionengine.home.mindspring.com/4plstc.htm
This is effectively a 160hp mod, but de-rated to 150hp at a lower max rpm of 2650 rpm instead of 2750 rpm. The reason given for this derating is that the no performance flight testing has to be redone. However at takeoff power where the engine doesn’t reach 150hp all that extra hp of the conversion comes into its own. Take off and climb performance is improved. A number of the Cab Air AA5A’s have had this mod done.
Look up our group’s web site. http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected] where you should find some interesting links to the owner’s group and aircraft history etc
:D

[ozplane]

Thanks for all the info chaps....it's really helpful. I was wondering if the 160 hp conversion for the Cheetah was approved in the Uk. It seems like a good compromise for the type of flying I want to do. With regard to the costs of the various models, a Traveler sold for £22K at our strip recently and a Tiger is under offer at £40K. There's another Tiger on Planecheck at £39K so they've obviously been "discovered". The Cheetah I'm interested in is around £26K hence the comment about the 430's and Mode S which would add about £14K to the cost of a Cheetah, not that I need that much kit.

[Monocock]

The question was "any thoughts".

Monococks thoughts are:

Bloody good a/c. Cheetah beeter value than expensive Tiger. Good pilots need not worry on grass (those who hold off properly).


If you buy one mate, I want a go!!!

Beats the PA28 spammers into oblivion anyway.

[Gruntos]

I have a cheetah. Lovely Aircraft and have done 210 hrs in mine.

Had her over the alps at 11,000 ft and will cruse at 100-120 kts with out too much fuss. Engine has been solid and now has 980 Hrs. Only problem has been with the ADF and Wings.

Watch high hr AirFrame ones you have to scrap the wings at 12000 hrs as the spars "time expire". I had to have new shims for the L/H wing at the last C/A at a cost of £26 for 2 but £1000 in labour!

Nose leg needs X-ray every 3 years and if you buy an X training A/C get the maint to check the oval proportions. Mine was 72thou out and I had to get a new one! Arse.

Great A/C

[MLS-12D]

Some great feedback here ... especially good post by High Wing Drifter.

ozplane, you might also want to seek advice and tips from the American Yankee Association (http://www.aya.org/). Aviation Consumer (http://www.aviation-consumer.com/) can also provide useful information.

[Dunebug]

Hi All,

I recently bought a 1/4 share of a lovely 1973 aa5 Traveller and would agree with all the praise & criticisms above. One other important point to mention regarding the Lycoming engine is the potential problems associated with the original crankshaft.

The crankshaft on these engines is hollow and semi-exposed to the elements which means that over time it suffers from corossion and pitting which can be corrected by re-reaming up to a maximum of 3 times (I think). If during an inspection pitting & corrosion is detected AND the crankshaft cannot be reamed then every 100 hours the shaft will require an NDT x-ray test which in itself is not time consuming or expensive but finding a suitably qualified engineer may be difficult. In our case we had to pay for an engineer to fly from Luton to Scotland to carry out the test for a total cost of about £700. Not TOO expensive but remember it needs to be done every 100 hours.

Regards,

Dunebug.