Censorship!

[proplever]

We are back to it Woomera. Disappearing threads again?

Whilst the thread was certainly controversial, there was no-one to launch legal action this time, surely?

Why do you keep doing this?

[Woomera]

Which thread are you talking about?

Woomera

[Whiskery]

I think amos2 has deleted his topic about '89.

Getting a bit hot was it amos? ;)

Keep the faith:]

[amos2]

Nah!...wasn't me,

I'm wondering what happened to it too!

As well as the thread on the jetstar guys!

Must be a gremlin in the works!? :ugh:

Maybe one of the 26 or so Woomeras' we have threw a wobbly! :E

[proplever]

A thread regarding the def 'e' nition of Impulse Pilots...

Pleading innocent Woomera?

[HotDog]

I was wondering about this myself on Fragrant Harbour. Flight Detent posted an opinion regarding Air Hong Kong and the subsequent takover by Cathay Pacific, which resulted in his eventual demise. I posted a conciliatory reply, hoping to calm him down. Next visit to the site, the whole topic gone! I realise that moderators are very busy doing their paying jobs after which they spend a lot of time scrutinising their assigned sectors on pprune; however as a matter of courtesy, I would expect at least a line to say that the topic has been axed so I wouldn't have to keep searching for it. By arbitralily deleting posts that you find not acceptable, you will get repeat inputs from members that don't realise their discretions. Any comments Danny?

[Woomera]

This Woomera (Eastern States) has been away for a "coupla days". I did not delete either thread, however I have been following them with interest. I class myself as a "moderate" moderator ;)

If the threads have been deleted by one of the Team (and not the originator) they have my wholehearted support for the following reasons:

1. 1989 has been done to death IMHO. Threads about that year always degenerate into the same old fighting and bitterness that just wastes bandwidth. Those of you who don't share these feelings can always go and create your own web presence and carry on the fight there.

2. Proplever, your thread appeared to me to almost mimic the 1989 threads that have proliferated on Dunnunda, with reference to Scabs etc. See point #1. We neither delete nor censor posts solely in response to a threat of legal action. If we feel a particular topic is in poor taste, then it will be deleted or censored. End of story.

I discuss PPRuNe (well, my alter-ego does) with many of its readership on a regular basis, and one thing is becoming evident. Most of them now are disenchanted with Dunnunda, mainly as a result of the repetitive bitching and mud slinging that has been going on here of late. They now visit less (if at all) and are taking their interests elsewhere. This is what we don't wish to happen all as a result of a few agitators.

People seem to forget WHY PPRuNe was established. Danny's original idea was to foster relationships between members and share important information/get a bit of goss at the same time. I'd like a dollar for every pilot who has found out valuable information which has assisted them in snagging that elusive job. No.. I'd donate it to running this service.

It's about time some of you woke up to yourselves. :yuk:

Over to you.

[Animalclub]

Woomera

I'm new at pruning thus I was concerned that I had a posting deleted from "Acronyms Annonymous". I don't know why.

I contacted admin1 to ask and they can't tell me.

The ONLY reason I asked was to find out if I'd broken the rules. I still don't know why.

Is it possible to advise posters why a postings/threads has been deleted... or are there too many!!

Cheers

[Woomera]

This Woomera (Eastern States)

Hear hear!

PRuNers should also remember that the thread originator can delete "his/her" thread and this form of "self censorship" has been known to occur.

I am going to have to go and find a copy of the "Ten Thingies" methinks. :p

People seem to forget WHY PPRuNe was established. Danny's original idea was to foster relationships between members and share important information/get a bit of goss at the same time. I'd like a dollar for every pilot who has found out valuable information which has assisted them in snagging that elusive job. No.. I'd donate it to running this service.

D & G is probably the most lightly moderated Forum on PPRuNe if the threads that get sent to Admin from the others are any indication.

If there is censorship it is for a "good" reason, you'll just have to trust us on this.

And if we have to raise the bar to get the;
Most of them now are disenchanted with Dunnunda, mainly as a result of the repetitive bitching and mud slinging that has been going on here of late. They now visit less (if at all) and are taking their interests elsewhere. This is what we don't wish to happen all as a result of a few agitators.
back then so be it.

Us Woomerii have all been around here a looooooooooong time and witness to some seriously, sad, funny, erudite, amazingly diverse, mindbogglingly esoteric, highly scientific, spiritual and genius threads and posts.

It has gone off a fair bit and I for one really miss em, we are all informed and educated by and in turn inform and educate our peers.

Let's keep it that way shall we.:ok:

One of the other Woomera

[Woomera]

I moved the thread to the PPRuNe Administration Forum for two reasons:

1. 1989 has been done to death, time and again in Dunnunda Forum.

2. The thread suggested all Impulse pilots collectively were SC*BS by definition and invited them to comment or confirm.

The thread degenerated to the point where I exercised my prerogative to remove it from public view.

Animalclub, the thread “Acronyms Anonymous” is in Jet Blast forum which Woomeri do not moderate. You should contact one of the Jet Blast moderators, flaps forty, flyblue or Wholigan. There are many PPRuNe moderators designated to various Forums; I can easily understand why an Admin moderator would not know why your post was removed - if it was removed.

Another Woomera

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Thanks for showing some commonsense woomera.

Proplever. Remember to properly identify yourself next time you absolutely have to have the jump seat. Pleading I think it was.

Remember the vote. Proplever is your representative on this forum

[amos2]

Well!!...

this is a bit like pulling teeth, ain't it?

After 10 posts or so, one of our 32 Woomerii's (or is that Woomeraa's?) comes clean and admits to pulling the plug on a thread, because...

(a) He didn't like it.
(b) He's sick of the subject.
(c) Some softy complained... (this has my vote!)

I'm not aware of anyone complaining during the " discussions" that took place so, maybe one has to consider that our moderation is perhaps becoming a bit "personal."

But, you know, we keep getting told these days that "it's our trainset" so I guess we either like it or lump it!

Anyway, enough of this padding, which after all is just mere detail.

What we know is that one of our 37 Woomerii's has admitted to pulling the plug on the Jetstar thread (guilt, honour, etc, whatever) eventually made him come clean!

But, what we don't know is...

WHO PULLED THE PLUG ON MY THREAD RE "THE 89' DISPUTE AND THE LEGAL PROFESSION ?"



:}

[Whiskery]

amos - who cares who pulled the plug. We all know WHY it was pulled.

I honestly thought you had pulled the plug as the thread was starting to cover old, old territory and the usual foes and arguments, for and against, were beginning to surface. I thought to myself, "Amos is volunteering for a Moderator's position on D&G." What's your handle - "Woomamostoo" or would it be "Amostoori" ?

Oh well, the children still believe in the Easter Bunny.

;) ;) ;)

[amos2]

Well, I'll be Whiskers!...

you're a poncy Melbourne supporter!...

I should have guessed!! :rolleyes:

[swh]

People,

I think the Woomerii do an excellent job, their job would be somewhat easier if people decided to include their real name an email address for people to directly contact them when they make a controversial post.

I could guarantee you that if you were to apply a simple test to every post no censorship would occur, i.e. would you be happy to put your real ARN, Name, email, and phone number on the post, if not then expect Woomerii have the right to censor.

Its not your site, its not you name/neck on the block, so the people who do run it have a right to run it as they wish. Feel free to set up you own site, where you can take responsibility for the contents, and pay for the bills.

Remember seeing this at the bottom of the page "As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."

As for "censor the people" many many many people including the mods on pprune have multiple IDs, the mods treat each ID as a separate user, I have heard of people being banned number of times to resurface under another userid.

It amazes me to see the number of people who complain about pprune, and a lot of these people don't put their hand in their pockets and support pprune. How many people on this thread have made donations to pprrune ?

I know at the start in aviation money is tight, the mods, Woomerii, etc have a lot of exp behind them and they do contribute back, it would be nice if the readers & complainers would by clicking here (http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/ptorder/ptorder.htm)

For the record, Woomerii are not paid, they are putting their little but back into aviation.

Woomerii, Kelly Gang, other past and future mods, thanks, keep up the good work...

:ok:

[Planned Root]

Is it possible to advise posters why a postings/threads has been deleted... or are there too many!!

Still waiting for an answer.

[Gunner B12]

Been banned for a day once myself....

What For?????

never really got an answer.....

What do I believe was the reason........

I questioned the impartiality of the moderators!!!!!

Do I accept it????

Have to if I want to continue to participate on this forum. Just as we all do!!!!

If you don't like it write to your MP!!!! I'm sure you'll get the response you seek (not).

If you don't like the rules take your bat and ball and go home. but for god's sake stop bit@hing about it.

GB12

:* :* :*

[Dan Kelly]

Gunner & Planned Root

I can't speak for the Woomeri but the Kelly Gang tried to keep folk informed when their posts were considered not appropriate. Often we were thwarted because folk choose to hide their email address.

Given that leopards don't change their spots, it's fairly safe to assume that Woomeri have a similar problem. In fact I've just tried to email Gunner, only to receve the following message. vBulletin Message
Sorry! That user has specified that they do not wish to receive emails through this board. If you still wish to send an email to this user, please contact the administrator and they may be able to help.

On the topic of censorship in general, moderating is a thankless task as one cannot keep every one happy all the time. As a moderator I read threads that were critical of my employer, and never once censored them for that.

However, I would suggest a strw poll would find that PPRuNe's regard has slipped over time and this seems to be, from conversations I've had on the flight deck, to be because the general tone is seen as one of whinging and bitching.

I certainly gave away moderating because I'd had enough of the '89 flame wars, and other folk who couldn't or wouldn't argue a point. Should some one disagree with them, out would come all the usual vitriol and invective.

Still an active professional pilot, I don't read PPRuNe as much as I used to, nor do I enjoy what I read as much as I used to, nor do I learn as much as I used to. And I think this is a sad situation.

To Woomeri:

You have my gratitude and support for the job you perform on PPRuNe. In my opinion you perform with integrity and show almost boundless patience.

[proplever]

Well, I've been away flying for a day or so, and I come back to find out that a "woomera" has admitted his censorship.

All because YOU felt that 1989 had been done to death (which the thread had nothing to do with), and because YOU felt that Impulse pilots were being called sc@bs.

YES! They are! They have behaved just like sc@bs, and your sensitivity to it seems to confirm exactly my point.

Don't worry DM. I won't need to jump seat any time soon. And if I did? I think I'd probably fly Virgin instead. At least they have their integrity intact.

[Whiskery]

Wash your mouth out Amos. The only football team in this town isTHIS ONE ! (collingwoodfc.com.au) :rolleyes:

[amos2]

Aaarrrgggghhhhh!!!...spew, spew, vomit, vomit!!!:mad: :mad:

PS: how's your morning after last night? :p

[Whiskery]

................not talking about last night, that's history. Looking forward the Bulldogs next week at the "G"!

Jeezuz, that light beer packs a punch!!!!:confused:

[Kaptin M]

May I open by saying that in general I`ve found the Woomeri censorship far more tolerant than The Kelly Gang were :D - sorry Dan just imo.
However I`d like to follow that up by stating the obvious - no-one is ever FORCED to read ANY of the topics - let alone post a reply.

On the subject of that well worn event, 1989, there are still many who are curious about some aspects of it, however on the subject of Danny starting PPRuNe to foster relations between pilots, it is my opinion that the "discussions" of 1989 have been beneficial for the majority (not necessarily only those directly involved), and it has been interesting to note the changes in the ways replies are posted now, compared with say 4 or 5 years ago.
Amos is an oustanding example :} - heavens only knows the number of times he and Tool Time were ex-communicated for the WAY they repiled. He NOW manages to get his (same) message across much more effectively.
Although I disagree with The Night Owl`s interpretation of events, he occasionally presents worthy, refined debates.

If there is only ONE pilot who hasn`t learned something from 1989, then I believe it is in the interests of ALL pilots to occasionally review an event that had all the ingredients for being used again (by either side), TODAY - and IS. One needs only look as far as the upper levels of QF I.R. management, to see who`s heading that!

Perhaps if one were to follow the thinking of the Woomera who deleted the other threads (to save bandwidth :rolleyes: ) to its logical conclusion, then how about deleting ALL topics every 31st December! :ooh:

[LetsGoRated]

Proplever

I think I'd probably fly Virgin instead. At least they have their integrity intact.

We all know how you REALLY feel about the folks at VB

proplever: posted 25th December 2001 00:15 You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. wonder if CASA are aware that VB are employing monkeys? Is that written in their AOC? Do they feed them anything else but peanuts? But wait, there is no cabin service on VB. Where do they get their peanuts from? These monkeys will starve! Get me the RSPCA....

:ok:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Nicely pointed out rated. I feel safe now knowing proplever is one of integrity. His whinning really has taints of jealousy.

Unfortunate soul.

[amos2]

Well, I've been blessed by the Messiah of D&G...

how quaint!...

perhaps I should have blessed you, back in 89' Charlie, when you REALLY needed help!

But, what the heck, young F/O's what do they know?

[proplever]

DM and LGR. The usual suspects. DM, I would have expected better from you. LGR, your life on pprune is dedicated to answering my posts, isn't it? What's the problem, son? Can't come up with your own ideas?

Lets just say that my respect has grown for VB. THey at least, didn't come along and senslessly undercut anyone else, did they? And they have improved their lot, haven't they? They have earned my respect.

It is impossible to have respect for thoughtless prostitutes.

[PPRuNe Towers]

From the UK it's a useful time to point out that we've opened up the Woomeroid job description to allow them to bin the works of the one subject wonders.

Totally kosher if they bin your words of wisdom on the grounds of being boring, repetitive, devoid of thought or understanding. If your views are incapable of accepting someone else feels or experienced something differently to you the Woomeras can use the editorial powers we are passing around the site to get rid.

The mods here are under no compunction from us to explain deletions publicly or privately. There is an element of training going on at the moment - the usual suspects will get the message eventually.

Giving you a voice is pointless if you're consistently spouting one sided bollocks.

Regards
Rob

[*Lancer*]

Dan and Rob,

Firstly, I don't envy the job the thankless moderators do here, and I think they do a great job of it - so thanks to Woomera.

However, the arguement about pointless, repetitive threads taking up bandwidth doesn't seem to justify why "The really really boring and totaly pointless snippets of information thread" on Jetblast has been going for 448 pages (6717 posts).

While I've had enough of the 1989 dispute and the endless bickering that results from discussing it, there are a lot of other topics that pilots seem to take personally: e.g. Cadets, Qantas vs Virgin, Management-pilot disagreements, Union-pilot disagreements (and insurrection!), CASA and NAS, personal attacks at career moves (see Dragonair, or Skippers threads), the list goes on. These threads are generally allowed to run their natural course to the inevitable stalemate.

What is different this time around?

[PPRuNe Towers]

We're giving the Woomeras editorial control in the sense of a magazine or newspaper not just the traditional taste, profanity and legal stuff. Let them shape a thread. The vast majority of the time it won't be needed but we all know the trigger issues. Danny and I have used the editorial technique on Rumours and News since October and the last complaint was in November.

If one of the traditional hot topics comes up your guys in Oz can wade in every 24 hours and delete all the posts from the ususual suspects - let's face it, they've written the same post for years so if 60% of the thread goes so what? It's really simple - if a post addresses the issue and acknowledges there is another point of view while building on an argument it stays. If it's yet another load of sledging with zero semantic content it is known as a 'proplever' and gets deleted. Mods have a specific command to bring up the entire thread with a yes/no tickbox at the side of every post. 30 second job to do a page and you might find the psychology interesting. The default setting is to delete every post and the moderator has to make the conscious decision to include not delete. Just think, all that typing straight down the gurgler on quality grounds.

Additionally multiple personalities becomes a non issue. Each post depends on whether it adds to a thread. Eventually the training will get through - they'll either bore for Oz somewhere else or they'll actually try the heartbreaking but radical step of having to think while at the same time varying their game. Signal to noise ratio here is ****e - we're changing it.

Regards
Rob

PS I'm also just introducing the beginnings of the concept to a dazed and baffled set of JB mods.

[proplever]

I'm truly offended, Towers! I do not "sledge", I gently "cajole".

Have we a new term here? A "proplever"? Is that something like a "Homer"?

:} :mad: :\ :cool:

[Capt CR750]

Woomera

You May think that the tragedy for what became known as "89" has been done to death and dont want to hear about it anymore. However I can assure you and the rest of those who would choose to shove your heads in the sand and ignore the lessons that were and still are being revealed in valid posts on this forum about "89", there are still many pilots and their families exiled, that have miraculously managed to remain intack due to the separation for years, that this event is still as relevent to them today as it was then. Who do you think you are to tell them that their pain is no longer relevent today and should not be discussed anymore in any forum.

An Ostrich sticking its head in the sand to avoid the truth looks very funny with a new freight train bearing down towards its exhaust port!

Ignore the lessons of the past and you will all pay again in a new event with an old method repackaged. The names on the side of the airlines may have changed but the ones in the top office have not forgotten or ignored the lessons they learned on how to divide and destroy!

Let the truth flow out mate.

:ok: :ok: :mad: :mad:

[Capt Claret]

Capt CR750

I don't think the real issue is '89 per se, more, threads on '89 almost invariably degenerate into who's the biggest :mad: @rsehole, and "you're a sc@b" comments, etc.

Learning about it is one thing, unreasoned attacks on the person are another.

[Woomera]

Correct Capt Claret. It is not the subject of “89” per se that is the problem; it is the very rapid degeneration into personal very subjective vitriol by the few, that both Woomeri and others who view these forums take exception to.

Objective, reasoned, impersonal debate on PPRuNe is always welcome. However PPRuNe is not a venue for scurrilous personal attacks from behind the cloak of anonymity.

Woomera

[OverRun]

What a pleasure to have moderation of D&G. Let's have more, and stronger.

I trawl D&G pages without pleasure because of the low level that some posts sink to with monotonous regularity. Is "play the man" the only game in Oz? The contrast between D&G and other PPRUNE forums is stark and unedifying. I spend more time outside the D&G forums, which is a shame because I actually live in Oz. Yet D&G has some really great stuff in between the dross. Anything that changes the ratio of dross to 'good stuff' has my vote.

One earlier Woomera summed up my view nicely:
Most of them now are disenchanted with Dunnunda, mainly as a result of the repetitive bitching and mud slinging that has been going on here of late. They now visit less (if at all) and are taking their interests elsewhere.

Well I agree that we don't wish this to happen all as a result of a few agitators and I'm all for moderation and time-out for individuals that warrant it.