so how expensive is flying in Europe?

[ArcherII]

I've been looking around, and renting a basic trainer like a PA28 or 172 is about 110 british pounds.

Multis like the Seneca are like over 200 pounds.

I looked it up and 110 pounds is about 200 dollars at the current rate.

200 dollars is exactly how much it costs to have dual training in our Seneca here in the US. That's dual training, as in instructor and Seneca I time.

Our warrior costs 70 bucks or roughly 38 pounds!!!

that's a third of the UK price...

so is 110 puunds the norm for a PA28?

Is it impossibly expensive to rent a Seneca in Europe...or even an Arrow?

Here it's quite possibly...seneca is $165/hour...not horrible especially if you carry 4 or 5 people a long distance.

Arrow, ...retract gear, CS and 200 hp and all is usually anywhere from 90 to 120 bucks...

Warriors and Archers and 172s are very affordable...anywhere from 50 bucks for the older ones to 110 to the brand new ones...

So is 110 pounds the norm for a PA28?

Archer

[BEagle]

It's mainly fuel and maintenance costs which make our ac hire so expensive! Due to taxation, 100LL is roughly 3 times the price of jet fuel..... Break even price for operating a Cherokee is about £75 (wet), so £100+ can indeed be considered the norm if you want to hire one.

And then there are things called 'landing fees'....... £10 ($18) to land on a crumbling strip of deteriorating tarmac at whatever's left of a long-disused WW2 aerodrome with no facilities except a tatty little hut which might sell you vile coffee and a bacon sandwich. If you're lucky they might have a flush lavatory. You'll need it after the coffee.

There's no equivalent of a FBO and there are no 'municipal' airports eager to attract your business.

Aviation in the UK is regarded as a noisy inconvenience by tree-huggers, a source of tax revenue by the grasping government and as a rich man's hobby by most of the unwashed genpub!

[ArcherII]

that's very depressing...

landing fees are the worse. You only get those here when you try to land (stupidly) at O'Hare, LAX or JFK or some gigantic airport like that...and SOME FBOs charge you landing and parking fees...

Meigs field used to be expensive cause it's right next to downtown Chicago...

but most places are free (I've landed at several dozen airports so far, and not one to date made pay a landing or parking fee)

so flying twins in UK/Euorpe is basically out of the question unless your are looking for a career as a pilot and have to get some multi time...

heck even an Arrow seems out of reach cost-wise in Europe...

I heard in Spain it's much cheaper...

[slim_slag]

Yeh archer, but look at the price of decent beer in the States. Want one of those and it costs you the price of a transatlantic airline ticket!

[ArcherII]

it's still very painful to even think of paying 200 bucks for a Warrior...

I mean you can fly Senecas, 310s, R22 helicopters, Mooneys at the price...

it's just insane...

[Evo]

it's still very painful to even think of paying 200 bucks for a Warrior...

I mean you can fly Senecas, 310s, R22 helicopters, Mooneys at the price...

it's just insane...


Oh I agree - but if you want to fly then there's not all that much you can do about it. It's a small country, aviation isn't essential and BEagle is quite right about the costs.

You can fly for less if you like things simple (a wood-and-fabric taildragger can be run for the same price as your PA28 :ugh: :( ) but getting from A to B at significantly over 100 kts is extremely expensive.

[Mad Engineer]

I heard in Spain it's much cheaper...

Not really.
Here in Spain, you can't rent an old (60's) Cherokee for less than 100-110 euros/hour, wich makes 120-130 $ with the actual change rate. This is only a bit cheaper than UK but still much more expensive than in the States.
Here we've got to pay also 'landing fees' and fuel is very expensive due to high taxes.

[englishal]

You only get those here when you try to land (stupidly) at O'Hare, LAX
And LAX is only $20.....(ooh, about £12.50).....I pay £21 a time at my local airport :(

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be fair, rental aircraft in the UK are generally in much better condition than anything I've ever rented in the US.

Archer, if you are looking to rent whilst on holiday here, then I'm afraid you are stuck with our ludicrously high rental rates, which are caused by a combination of high labour rates, high property taxes, high fuel prices (around £4 / $7 per US gallon), and the fact that our weather means that the utilisation of the aircraft as an asset is much poorer.

If you are planning to move here, then most of us who fly regularly actually pay something similar to US rates. However, we don't do it by renting, we do it by buying into syndicates operating aircraft as a group and then selling our shares on later. Certainly where I fly from, shares can be bought or sold for around £1500 upwards, and flying can be had within the syndicates for around £40/hr for a C152 or £60/hr for a Warrior.

G

[GroundBound]

The club aircarft I fly (Archer, C172, Grumman Tiger) come in around 130-140 Euros per hour - including all local landing fees, touch 'n goes, and a 2500m tarmac runway with ILS, and an ATC service (gotta dodge the Ryanairs though).

Depending on the exchange rates that's around 90-100 UK oncers, or maybe 150 US greenbacks.

Land-away fees are around 10-15 Euros - small grass airfield or tarmac.