How do you pilot's feel about the no-cockpit-rule?

[JeroenC]

Flying is fun for a lot of reasons, only one of them being the contact with a lot of different people.

Okey, a lot of people asked the same questions over and over again, but it must have been nice to talk to all those people.

How does this influence your joy of flying, especially for the long-haul pilots?

[OzExpat]

Okay, I'll bite... what's the "no cockpit rule"? :confused:

[exeng]

I would imagine that JeroenC is refering to the 'no visits to the flight deck rule', i.e. 'locked flight deck door policy'.

Generally speaking I'm sorry that no pax visits are allowed.


Regards
Exeng

[expedite_climb]

Yeh me too,

As you said, some could be a pain, some kids stood and said nothing, some dads were more interested than the kids (!), and sometimes you felt like you were in a zoo; but overall I miss it, it used to break up the long flights a bit.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Its a pain in the arse rule but a sign of the times unfortunately. Passengers seem to have accepted it and many nervous fliers I'm sure are glad that strangers are no longer permitted onto the flight deck.

I agree, in the past many drunk passengers have or have tried to get access to the flight deck. The cabin crew would normally have tried to "vet" who was allowed up.

The rules for cabin crew admittance to the flight deck are likewise draconian & cumbersome but necessary. It initially enhanced the feeling of solitude in the cockpit and cabin crew visits are more infrequent now unfortunately due to the entry procedures.

People adapt though to environments and the system now feels normal to me. Some operators still allow passengers to poke their head into the flight deck after the flight when the engines are shut down so it is not a total "no go" area.

[Johnman]

The rule of admittance to the flight deck is an old one but it was not taken seriously, cockpit crew were asked at times if they can accept a passenger in the cockpit on overbooked flights. I'm more comfortable with applying the rule strictly.

[Avman]

Yesterday I flew back from LAX sitting next to an eighty year old retired KLM captain. How ridiculous that neither he (still a PPL holder!!) and I (ATC) are no longer allowed to visit the cockpit. I still think that the rule should, with appropriate I/D and at the Captain's discretion exclude aviation professionals directly involved with the safety of aircraft.

[Slim20]

"Wow, it's really small in here!"
"How do you remember what all these buttons do?"
"Is it on autopilot?"
"Where does the navigator sit?"

Surely our lives are enriched by NOT having to listen to these same questions repeated ad infinitum.......

However, I do miss the occasional celeb, pop star or actress.....!

[Spitoon]

The nav got to sit!!!!!???

[tyfilou]

I wish i could have had a locked door on the Be-10 i was piloting on taxi operations as i was concentrated on an ILS approach in bad freezing and bumpy conditions around 800 ft Agl and many times it was the moment when each time a pax was coming and absolutely wanted me to aknowledge that he'd need a cab when arrived....

tyfilou

:ok:

[reverserunlocked]

As a humble PPL-er, I miss visiting the flightdeck. I always found that crews on long hauls were almost without exception happy to talk shop with a fellow aviator, even if like me they'd only punted around in a PA28.

In years of travelling, I only had one flight where I visited the F/D and didn't feel welcome. It was on a KLM 767 to Beriut and the moment I stepped in there I could smell the tension. I tried to ask a few intelligent questions but to no avail. My queries as to the finer points of 767 ops were rebuffed with one word answers.
I was rather relieved a short time later when we reached TOD and the Captain asked me to go back to my seat.

But to all the others over the years, from the guys on a BA 767 into Abu Dhabi who allowed me my first J/S landing, to the crew of a BMed A320 who got me up on the J/S for take-off from LHR and then made a point of making sure I got the best seat in the house for a night time Beirut arrival. And finally to the blokes in a Virgin 744 who not only let me sit with them for about two hours in the cruise, but invited me to stay up top for a spectacular arrival at Newark in the middle of thunderstorm, lightning and all!

To those guys and those like you, let me speak for all of us in the junior aviation club and thank you for the wonderful memories that we'll never forget, and strengthened our resolve that the next time we see those sights will be when we're in the driver's seat!

[RUDAS]

its definitely a sign of the world we live in,and its really very sad,especially for us fellow pilots/aviation professionals/enthusiasts who would love to go up and have a chat with the cockpit crew.

that said,its probably best,since we can't trust anybody these days and we have to let the public feel at ease and safe knowing no one can get access up front.

as for the person who wrote that its crazy that he,as an ATC and an ex KLM pilot who has a PPL are not allowed up front,mate,i agree with you 100%,and it ticks me off too when i fly a a pax,but remember,having a licence doesnt automatically guarantee youre safe to let in...those 9/11 hijackers had licences too i believe.

unfortunately,thats the way the world is today and in the interests of safety,and ultimately the stability of the industry,we've got to accept it:bored:

[Fright Level]

The benefit of interaction with a youngster thinking of taking up flying as a career far outweighed the risk of drunk or boisterous pax in the flight deck. That all changed and sadly I can't imagine us going back to the "good old days". Where young flyers will get their inspiration from, I don't know. It's nowhere near as fun a job I started just 14 years ago.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Out of interest, has anything changed in the last year?

G

[Capt Pit Bull]

Yes.

I'm another year older and another year bored-er.

CPB

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh well, I shall continue to feel grateful for my choice to work in light aviation, and enjoy the drinks in steerage on business trips then.

G

[Rainboe]

Although retired now, I have to say I appreciated the end to blanket visits. Quite a few times I came to feel with alarm that visitors were, in fact, inebriated to a degree. The majority asked the same moronic questions as we see here, and the fathers who 'would like to bring up their son to see the flight deck', and walked up with a babe in arms whose digestive system had just struck gold- I was really glad all that was over. The true aviation enthusiast with knowledge and interest was all too rare, but a pleasure to have. But as far as I was concerned, if my own wife was totally banned, then so was everybody else, controllers, management pilots, CAA staff. Crew (known background) on standby travel excepted.

[Aerofoil]

In my opinion i think the rule should allow relatives/friends of the flight crew to visit/jumpseat the flight deck and also as someone said earlier in the thread industry employees with a valid airside ID.

However i do recall recently reading somewhere that the rules on flight deck access were going to be looked at? Has anyone else heard this and ifso who are they thinking about giving access to the flight deck?

Foil :ok:

[N5528P]

Yesterday I flew back from LAX sitting next to an eighty year old retired KLM captain. How ridiculous that neither he (still a PPL holder!!) and I (ATC) are no longer allowed to visit the cockpit. I still think that the rule should, with appropriate I/D and at the Captain's discretion exclude aviation professionals directly involved with the safety of aircraft.

Absolutely right! I have no problem to allow no pax sitting on the jump seat, but I consider it simply useless to prevent controllers / pilots / aiport operations oficers from entering the cockpit. This should be the decission of the Captain. All the professionals mentioned above (and many more) can easily harm an aircraft and hundreds of pax every day in their jobs - they do not need to enter the cockpit for this reason. Even the catering and loading personnel can damage aircraft during their jobs - and we all know how badly they are sometimes paid. This is a far greater risk to security. (Completely crazy: I have heard that even deadheading crew members are not allowed to ride in the jumpseat, although this could be a company rule.)

Generally, I have made the experience, that it is extremely important for controllers / pilots / ops people to have contact and there are things you do not mention or discuss in official liaision meetings. That will backfire sooner or later...

Has anyone ever heard of a case where a visitor to the cockpit has tried to attack the flight crew?

Regards, Bernhard

[QSK?]

N5528P: I have heard that even deadheading crew members are not allowed to ride in the jumpseat... and Has anyone ever heard of a case where a visitor to the cockpit has tried to attack the flight crew?
No, I havn't heard of a visitor to the flight deck attacking the flight crew but there is a well documented case where a deadheading crew member sitting in a jump seat on a cargo flight in the US attacked the flight crew with a fire axe, seriously injuring both the operating crew. Fortunately, the operating crew was able to overpower the off-duty pilot in the jump seat and land the aircraft safely despite their serious injuries. I believe the captain of that flight never flew again.

[xetroV]

As far as I know, the FedEx attacker was a disgruntled employee riding a jump seat, but not a (deadheading) crew member. But I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, there's also a well documented case of a pilot committing suicide while flying a full 767; perhaps we should ban pilots from the flight deck too. :rolleyes:

[despegue]

In France, they still alow cockpit visits duting cruise on skippers discretion. Don't think that it is actually allowed, but it happens often, and that is a good thing.
It is just paranoia to ward off anyone from the flight-deck.
On 09/11, cockpit doors were also locked and there has been a ban on visits to the flightdeck in the US for years.
I still alow people to say hello inflight, albeit with the presence of a flight attendant.
I refuse to join any paranoia, and that includes flight-deck visit bansd and that yellow jacket madness.

[McAero]

However, I do miss the occasional celeb, pop star or actress.....!

I'm sure you must be asked extremely intelligent and different questions by them then. At least they could afford to become a pilot, if they so desired. However, as already mentioned, what about the young boys (and girls) who need some career inspiration and want to aspire to be like the guys in the uniform they see walking through the airport? "sorry son, they're locked in that tiny room and you can't go in cause you might have a gun."

:*

[Rainboe]

Let's not forget the truly awful Mukonyi incident- the schizo Kenyan who decided that 400 people should be killed on the Nairobi flight. The background to it is worse than you may think. I'm told that one of the upper deck passengers was all set to terminate him there and then. I'm afraid the era of high security is upon us- there is a good reason for it, and the days of passengers visiting the flight deck are gone for good, unless you travel on airlines that haven't learnt their lesson yet. The hijacking era started when it became clear how easy it was to do it. We seem to have come out of that after making it harder and giving a robust response. We don't want any more bizarre suicide (and mass murder) atempts.

[aviator's_anonymous]

I just wanna say that the visit to the cockpits as a kid was what fueled my love for aviation as a kid. Long haul flights, and many countless visits to the cockpit as a kid, and now i'm a pilot who hopes to make it in the world of the big guns..
it's a pity that cockpit visits have been stopped due to what's happened in the world

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I used to do a lot of jump seat visits years ago soon after I started flying, lots of take offs and landings, but I'm happy to sit in the back with my G&T these days. The ultimate was a 1999 Concorde jump seat trip Manchester to Paris (including mach 2.02 at 60,000 feet) on G-BOAD, push back at Manch to brakes-on at Paris (once you're tucked in behind the captain it'd be very inconvenient for the busy FE if you wanted to get out - there's not a lot of room).

On that trip, after the supersonic bit as we decelerated and descended, pax came forward for cockpit visits and almost all said "how can you remember what all these dials are for?" The supernumary captain who had given a commentrary and was supervising the cockpit visits replied at one point "I sit at home in the cupboard under the stairs and practice with the gas meter!".

And we don't allow cockpit visits in the Chipmunk. No need, really. The pax (singular) has their own cockpit. ;)

SSD

[jetjockey737]

I took my kids to AGP a while ago and I would have loved to have got them into the F/D so that they could see their dad at work. As others have said it is a sign of the times but the lack of common sense annoys me.

If the cabin crew came to me and said that we had a gentleman holding a holy book and mumbling to himself who would like to visit the flight deck, I have a feeling I might say no.

The cabin crew come to me and say that my kids would like to visit us I would be inclined to say yes.

That to me is just common sense.......but it aint gonna change so I have learnt to live with it.

It is the same old story of punishing the majoritity...blah blah!!

Just one final thought thought, If pamela anderson was on board and asked to visit the flight deck there is no way I could say no! Thats if she could fit her boobs in!!!!:ok: :E :ok:

[Alitalia]

There are two airlines in South Africa that still allow a few people to sit jump seat at the captain's discretion. Especially children, pilots, ATC's and enthusiasts. Thank you Kulula and 1time!

[Bishop of Baku]

It is still a source of considerable irritation that I cant take my wife and children in the cockpit but that cabin crew of uncertain pedigree and orientations can join the airline from north Africa or the Middle east and after a couple of short weeks training have unrestricted access.

I still consider this to be the greatest threat to cockpit security. The sept 11th hijackers were probably overtrained for the job of guiding an aircraft at a large target. A few hours on a flight sim would be sufficient.

The company (chief pilot ?) should be able to issue cockpit passes for long term crews spouses and children.
It has been pointed out a few times in this thread already that many a lad was inspired into a flying career after a cockpit visit. I was that lad and I don’t regret a minute of it.


Bish