25 Stones and wanting a PPL [Archive]

Sensible

17th Mar 2004, 17:58

darul, You would be best to use your desire to learn to fly as an incentive to lose weight.

I think in your position darul I would first of all find somebody who will just let you sit in the seat of their Cessna 172 for a trial lesson which I think is the best airplane for getting out of. Getting out of an aircraft is always more difficult than getting in. You need to see if the instructor can achieve “full and free control” of the yoke and that you can operate the pedals at the same time! If an instructor cannot achieve full and free control then it is certain that he will refuse to fly with you. I think that a TB9/10 is going to be a nightmare for a big chap to get out of without damaging the aircraft. Once you have achieved a trial lesson, you will be able to phone around flying schools- ones with old airplanes since school owners with new airplanes are the unlikeliest to let you cause possible/probable damage to their airplanes. You will be able to use the argument that you have already had a satisfactory trial flight and that you can operate the yoke and controls satisfactorily. I would suggest that you get a Class 2 medical at a very early stage which you will need before your first solo anyway.

I have to say that a lot of people struggle to get through their Class 3 medical and it may well be that you will have a limited number of years in the air due to medical restrictions.
Personally, I wouldn’t fly with a big chap since I would be concerned about obstruction of the yoke and subsequent loss of directional control let alone the probable damage to the somewhat fragile aircraft seats.

You need to lose weight that is without a doubt since even if you did find somebody to initially train you, you will have an ongoing problem in finding the next airplane to fly.

VP8

17th Mar 2004, 19:39

Try the Pilot Centre at Denham

Got mine I'm Over 20st:uhoh:

See Brian

VEEPS

RH60YR

17th Mar 2004, 19:41

Stop eating the pies ;)

redsnail

17th Mar 2004, 19:48

darul,
I don't know what your height is but if you're the correct weight for your height then you shouldn't have too much trouble. You (as you've found out) will just have to look around some more. It will be a tight squeeze but you'll cope.
If, and I hope you don't mind me saying, you've been dodging the salads, use this as an impetus to shed a couple of stone.
Generally, there seems to be a bit of a world wide trend to being a bit stricter with the BMI.

(I know someone who was nearly refused his Class 1 because his BMI was 34.5%. He already held a full Class 1 medical from Australia. He weighed in at 125kg, 6' 4" tall)

BRL

17th Mar 2004, 19:54

Here is mine, do you want to borrow this.... :Dhttp://www.ifb.uni-stuttgart.de/~doerner/guppy.jpg

darul

17th Mar 2004, 21:34

Thanks BRL,
Its a great offer, but there's a problem....

How would I squeeze through that little door?
Maybe I could borrow some grease to spread on my hips. LOL

QDMQDMQDM

17th Mar 2004, 22:31

A Broussard is what you need. Great aircraft.

QDM

ToryBoy

18th Mar 2004, 06:55

Or perhaps a couple od VP1's, one on each foot?!

astir 8

18th Mar 2004, 07:16

Isn't there a max allowable seat loading in some aircraft?

whitingiom

18th Mar 2004, 08:07

That limit of 33 would seem to rule out anyone who's ever done any weight training......I'm still playing hockey every week and I grind the winches on a raceboat in the summer, but when I did your calculation I came out dead on 33.

God help the couchpotatoes.

I actually train in a 172 and find it surprisingly roomy, compared to say a Landrover Discovery where my shoulder rubs annoyingly against the window all the time.

I'd better not drink too many pints at the Aeroclub bar, seems if I put on a kilo or too in the next two years (or shrink) I might not get my next Class 2.

Flyin'Dutch'

18th Mar 2004, 08:16

I have seen this upper limit of the BMI being bandied around before but can not find any specific reference on the CAA site. Can anyone post a link if they do.

I know for a fact that the FAA do not have a BMI limit.

FD

englishal

18th Mar 2004, 08:24

BMI is a load of c*ap! And not used for medical issue (at least class 2). The AME makes an assesment of you physical appearance at the time of the medical.

If I work out my BMI, I'm classified as being overweight (185cm / 100Kg, 29 BMI). Unfortunately the BMI doesn't take into account muscle mass and bone structure, I have both large muscle mass due to cycling / wakeboarding, and big bones. According to the BMI calculations I should weigh 66Kg, the lightest I've ever been was 78Kg, and everyone said that I was ill.

Of course the other side of the coin is whether the plane will fly and you'll fit in :D Still, I flew with a fat instructor in the states once, who's BMI was at least 33, in a 152 and we were fine. He did have to put his arm around me though to actually fit in the plane :oh:

Find an AME and get your medical. If you get that ok, there is no reason you can't learn to fly (saw this really fat AA captain at LAX a while back, so there is definitely hope!).

EA

mad_jock

18th Mar 2004, 08:42

25 stone is nothing compared to some FAA PPL's i met in FL.

One guy used to fly a 150 he had to sit in the middle and I don't know what he did with the rudder pedals.

God knows what the m&B was like with full fuel and a hot humid day in FL.

Shouldn't be a problem with a 172 or possibly even a tommahawk depending on the the size of your arse (the trim wheel is in the middle next to the seat). I have had some heafty trial flights in and we have always managed. And with the ladys its mostly makes me blush. "Err I am just going to alter a control next to you I am not feeling you up" reply is usually along the lines " why not? feel all you like there is enough of it".

The joys of highland women :D

And with regard to the PPL medical if they are a bit funny about your weight there should be no problems with a NPPL. There are enough lorry drivers i have worked with with nicknames like sumo, jabba etc which make 25 stone look anorexic.

MJ ( who is no skinny either)

FlyingForFun

18th Mar 2004, 09:14

One guy used to fly a 150 he had to sit in the middle and I don't know what he did with the rudder pedalsUsed the pilot's left rudder pedal, and the pax's right rudder pedal??? :eek:

FFF
---------------

expedite_climb

18th Mar 2004, 09:27

mad_jock,

Brings back the memories.... I remeber this one woman was so large that I had to do the whole trial lesson without the timmer!

BEagle

18th Mar 2004, 09:47

25 stone is 350 lb or 160 kg which is twice the normally assumed weight of an average adult.

Even if you could fit into the left hand seat of a PA28, with an average FI in the RHS there would need to be a low fuel weight and ballast in the luggage area to get the CofG into the envelope. I don't have the figures with me at the moment, but I recall doing a CG check when a chap who was around 18 stone wanted to fly our aeroplanes - we concluded then that he would put the CG outside the front of the envelope unless we did some clever balancing and flew with half tanks-ish....

Will do the sums when I next have the weight and balance graph to hand......unless there's someone out there who beats me to it!

Genghis the Engineer

18th Mar 2004, 10:14

I know that neither CAA nor FAA make an issue of this, but the fact is when we certify aircraft structures (what I do for a living) we use a given load per seat. I prefer when I can to use a sensible load of around 110kg / 17 stone (which is about 99th percentile adult male), but in reality most airworthiness departments use the minimum acceptable value, which is 77kg / 12 stone.

Whenever you go beyond that value, you are reducing your personal safety factors. At 25 stone in a standard aircraft seat designed with standard safety factors, I'd expect the structure to fail at around:-

6½g forward load in the event of an accident on the ground, or
2.75g downwards load (which is a typical hard landing, or for that matter well within legal hard manoeuvring).

In that context, I'm afraid that I'd suggest you either lose a lot of weight, or search out somebody using a training aeroplane specifically designed with a MUCH higher seat load - if it is, that information should be in the operators manual.

Sorry, but as Scottie used to say with monotonous regularity, you cannae change the laws of physics cap'n.

G

englishal

18th Mar 2004, 10:34

2.75g downwards load (which is a typical hard landing, or for that matter well within legal hard manoeuvring).
Ah, but don't the laws of physics dictate that the heavier an aircraft is, the less G or rather the higher speed required to pull the same G? In which case a couple of fat knackers at the wheel, and you're less likely to damage an aircraft.....

EA (trying to be clever :D)

ToryBoy

18th Mar 2004, 10:38

Although not as well informed about these things as G the E there is something else that would worry me.

The seat rails and locking pins on the ageing fleet of GA aircraft are scarily puny. I know someone who weighs 11 stone who had a pin snap on takeoff but luckily had his flight case wedged behind the seat so he didn't end up in the back. 25 stone would be like having two average blokes sat on the same seat......

The other thing is why has everyone assumed that daruls weight problem is due to a need to lose weight. I have a mate who is 6 foot 3 inches, weighs 23 stone and has a 33 inch waist. If you want to meet him he works by standing outside Ritzies nightclub in Norwich between 10 pm and 3 am wearing a black suit and shades!!!

:ouch: :}

FNG

18th Mar 2004, 11:24

Not a cheap option, but a Bulldog is spacious inside (wide seats, good headroom, stick not yoke) and, being somewhat over-donked, has the ability to haul many pies aloft. Bulldog PPL courses are available at Old Sarum, possibly at Kemble, also at Duxford and Andrewsfield (via North Weald).

Genghis the Engineer

18th Mar 2004, 12:00

Any light aircraft within weight and balance flying at or above Va should be able to achieve the limit g loading, which is usually 3.8g

A quick sum indicates that 2.75g is achievable at any speed above 85% Va.

And in my experience, heavy landings are more, not less likely with a heavy aircraft.

The Bulldog of-course is stressed to much higher g-levels, and is also designed for the pilot to wear a parachute. That is probably a far better bet from a structural viewpoint - if flown non-aerobatically anyhow.

G

englishal

18th Mar 2004, 12:50

Ah but Va varies with weight ;)

Penguina

18th Mar 2004, 12:54

Used the pilot's left rudder pedal, and the pax's right rudder pedal???

:\ Stop it FFF, gives me sympathetic groin strain thinking about it!

I think you'd have to take more care than some, but I would have thought a female instructor could help? :D

BEagle

18th Mar 2004, 13:22

Bulldog isn't that capable of taking large people. On of my chubbier students used to have to hold the control column in a weird manner because he was to fat to be able to obtain full and free movement of the controls otherwise.

But one of my lovely girl-shaped girl students found wearing an RAF LSJ far more awkward....

Genghis the Engineer

18th Mar 2004, 13:46

Ah but Va varies with weight

Yep, and my answer holds true for any weight at which you have a value of Va.

G

witchdoctor

18th Mar 2004, 14:21

Ah, the mighty Bulldog - happy days!:D

Pretty expensive way to work towards a PPL, but hey, if you have to be restricted to something count your blessings it's something nice to fly (and well thought out from a pilot's view) and not some bloody awful spamcan with controls and dials all over the bloody place.

And I thought I was a big lad.:O

ACW 335

18th Mar 2004, 15:32

Choppers appear to come across as more spacious and easier to get in and out of, have you thought of that?? I don't know what the MAUM of a chopper is in comparison to an SEP.

You will have to be careful what instructors you fly with, because you may finnd you have difficulties fuel wise when it comes to Dual QXC and Skills test. As some one said earlier us it as an incentive to get down the gym and do some running - bearing in mind that you will gain weight for a bit as you start to get muscle which weighs more than fat - surely you can't be dong your heart any good?

Whirlygig

18th Mar 2004, 15:57

A Robinson has a max weight of 16 stone per person and is a very compact and bijou aircraft!!

Schweizer can take three but the collective is very close to the left hip so if one's bum is bigger than the seat then this would prove difficult. Jet Ranger would be easier but you're looking at £500 per hour!

Cheers

Whirlygig

Hairyplane

18th Mar 2004, 16:52

Fair play for sticking your @rse above the parapet!

Forget the Robin, it will also prevent operation of the flap lever between the seats.

I remember groping around in the folds for the flap lever in a DR400 when I was teaching a lovely but blubbery lady.

She was probably 20 stones.

Instead of finding an aircraft that fits you, why not the other way round?

THere is a lot to be said for heeding the latest fat scares.

'Sudden death is often natures first indication that you should lose weight' .

Additionaly, you will find that the passenger seat invitations will increase from 'less than one' once you have shed 10 stones.

Good luck (with the flying and the revised beer regime).

HP

javelin

18th Mar 2004, 17:12

How about the - er - lady examiner from the Ministry who couldn't do a full GFT in a 152 'cos she was rather fuller of figure. the poor candidate had to stop and refuel :\

Monocock

18th Mar 2004, 18:10

Listen mate, are you a "Ricky Gervais" or a "Schwarzenegger"??

Until we know that it's difficult to give any advice as to what you'll fit in. You can fly ANY 2 seater solo once you have your licence as your weight is hardly more than double the manufacturers intended weight for 2 adults. Even my Luscombe (65 hp) would take you with full fuel.

Try the C172 to learn in. It's actually nicer to fly than the C150/C152 and certainly no more difficult. The doors are like the front door of a house and the engine has enough oomph to allow you to take a couple of people up in it once you've got your licence. I know of a couple of schools who will train PPL's in a 172.

Don't be put off, go and give it a try. Good luck.:ok:

Kellvin

18th Mar 2004, 18:25

I gotta agree with bfato (I'v PM,ed you too) about Firecrest aviation in Elstree. I'm 6'7 and 110 kilogram (about 20 stone I think) and I don't fit in any 150/152.

But, I fit quite fine in a 172 and take passengers no problems.

I also learnt at firecrest in their 172, and jumped in a 152 once but I am too tall.

Never though to try straddling the seats though

:D

Good luck finding your school.

QDMQDMQDM

18th Mar 2004, 20:27

Come on everybody, this thread is a wind-up, isn't it? My recently bought scales don't even go up this high.

And englishal, BMI isn't 'cr*p'. You just don't like it because it doesn't say what you want it to.

BMI tables derive from actuarial survival tables used in the life insurance industry and a more unemotional industry would be hard to find. Once your BMI goes over 26 your age-specific mortality increases exponentially, end of story. Very fat people tend to die sooner than slim people and 'Normal BMI' is defined by the range in which age-specific mortality is lowest. It's an extremely useful tool to help people live healthier lives and judge their weight.

QDM

darul

18th Mar 2004, 21:34

This is not a wind up!!!!
facts
I am 25 stones
i want to learn to fly
I wish I was slim, but I can't do it! (losing weight)
I been big my whole life, i lived my whole life not doing stuff because I was fat, i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself if i can or can't lose weight. I hope you understand that.
and i know being fat is no good but i just can't change.

MLS-12D

18th Mar 2004, 21:50

darul,

If you really are as heavyset as you say, you may well have to resign yourself to the fact that, unfortunately, flying is one activity that you will be unable to do. For better or worse, the vast majority of aircraft are designed for people of much smaller and lighter build.

i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself ... i know being fat is no good but i just can't changeI don't want to be unkind, but you must understand that you can't expect everything to change to suit you. You're going to have to learn to make some compromises, just like I do with my myopia, others do with colour-blindness, etc.

Notwithstanding the above, by all means go ahead and visit a flying school for a demonstration flight .. you won't know until you've at least sat in one or two cockpits. If all of the schools that you approach refuse to let you take lessons, it might be an idea to accept this with good grace, since they are not only concerned with their aircraft, but with your personal safety.

Hopefully you can find someone who can accomodate you. If not, either look for another hobby, or talk with your physician about other weight-loss methods.

Good luck to you. :ok:

J.A.F.O.

18th Mar 2004, 22:43

I been big my whole life, i lived my whole life not doing stuff because I was fat, i'm now 33 and think "sod that" I gonna enjoy myself if i can or can't lose weight. I hope you understand that.

Good for you, mate. Life's for living, not for calculating your BMI.

It may make it more difficult and limit your choices but if you want to do it then you'll do it.

Nothing to offer but encouragement.

(The rather lardy) JAFO (BMI unknown)

darul

18th Mar 2004, 23:14

thanks for you support J.A.F.O :D

andrewc

18th Mar 2004, 23:32

Darul,

Find a school that will teach you in either a 172 or a PA-28 (160+),
unless you have a large instructor you will have little problem
with W&B - and if you do simply fly with fuel to tabs rather than
full tanks.

Forget about microlites and 2-seater trainer style aircraft
but go ahead and enjoy yourself.

This thread shows quite interestingly what a pack of tossers
some of our web contributors are.

-- Andrew

Mr Wolfie

19th Mar 2004, 07:16

andrewc wrote -This thread shows quite interestingly what a pack of tossers some of our web contributors are.

On the contrary, out of the 45 replies so far, almost all have been sympathetic and helpful (even if the advice at times points to the harsh realities of the situation).

I am a big bloke myself at around 16 stones, and have to be careful doing the weight and balance calculations when carrying pax. With an extra 10 stones on top I don't think that the figures will work out for Darul. For example the W&B chart for the C172 that I often fly only goes up to 30 stones for the front seats (both seats). Darul on his own at 26 stones would almost make all this up. If an average sized instructor were to occupy the front right seat too I am not certain that there would be enough elevator authority to actually flare on landing. The only option to stay within W&B would be for either Darul or his instructor to get in the back!:D

Darul, losing weight isn't easy - I am trying to shed a couple of stones myself and failing miserably - but realistically you need to try and get yourself to at least sub-twenty stone.

Anyway, good luck & all the best.
Mr. W

Whirlygig

19th Mar 2004, 08:36

Darul,

The hardest thing I have ever done was to lose 5 stone. I went from a BMI of nearly 40 to now 27 - so I am just overweight rather than obese. Giving up smoking was easier ;)

What I realized was that the medical profession (at least my GP) didn't know everything about weight loss/gain and his diet sheets (which I followed) made no difference. I tried a low-carb diet (against his advice) and lost the weight. Now I don't give a flying f*** about the pros and cons of Atkins and what it may or may not do in the long term, because being 5 stone lighter has certainly got to be better for me. I'm afraid that I do NOT believe that weight gain/loss is purely a matter of calories in/calories out. Different foodstuffs will be absorbed by the body at different rates and I am sure that different bodies have different "systems". Have you had your thyroid and/or adrenals checked?

Exercise made a big difference and I found that as I lost more, I could do more. I hated it, still do but it had to be my goal in life to get a PPL(H) so all my time was devoted to getting fit.

Darul, please try to get fit. There is no easy way and you will probably have to devote the best part of a year to losing weight but you would not believe how much better you will feel - not just physically but mentally since you have to use an incredible amount of will power to do it. you will also find that other people's reactions to you will change (can be amusing, can be annoying).

You CAN do it and changing your mindset will have to be the first step.

All the best

Whirlygig

englishal

19th Mar 2004, 09:19

On the subject of dieting.....

After 10 weeks in America, not much exercise, and Christmas and all that I had put on 8 kg....16.something lbs, too much beer, nacho's and burgers. Anyway, I started a "Cornflake" diet, youghurt for breakfast, bowl of cornflakes for lunch, and a normal dinner. I also started cycling again (tried it in California, but you're taking your life in your hands there:oh: ). The result is I've lost 8kg in 6 weeks, and its still going down. I reckon I want to loose another 10kgs before I stop, but the wierd thing is I'm used to it now, I actually enjoy it. If I feel hungry I have an apple and a cup of tea, and it works well. I haven't totally cut out booze either as I do enjoy a good pint of London Pride or Guiness, just not every night.

I used to be quite a lardy kid, then when I hit 20 I lost 4 stone in 4 months, due to cycling, and cutting the crap. It was great, the girls loved it...and so did I;) Still, when I hit 30 me and a bunch of mates went on a holiday to the states, and the weight started to come on. Soon after that I was working out in malaysia, where the food was excellent, then ironically I learned to fly, which meant 6 weeks in the states eating burgers and beer, then I got married:D. In order to stop myself becoming a lard arse again, I changed my lifestyle a little bit, started cycling again, eating less kebabs etc., and my weight stabilized. The big thing is really the exercise, as soon as I stop, the weight starts to come on, as soon as I start again, the weight stabilizes...Add a small diet to this, or rather cut out the crap, and the weight drops.

The best way in my opinion to loose weight, is eat sensibly, and get some exercise. I normally cycle 1hr 4-5 times a week, plus other activities like canoeing in the winter, wakeboarding in the warmer months. Feels like s*it when you start doing it from a period of inactivity, but it doesn't take long for the body to adjust, and you soon start enjoying it. Get an mp3 player, a decent bike, and just use it every day, even if you have to go out in the evenings with a mate (makes it easier if you have a mate to go with). I have a set route I do, which is about 17 miles out along country lanes, and takes in 2000' of vertical climbing total. I'd recommend you start out on the flat though, and gradually build up.....

Good luck, if you really want to get fit and loose a few pounds, you can do it.....

EA

Brooklands

19th Mar 2004, 12:37

Darul,

You should be OK in a four seater. I've had a look at my weight and balance charts for the club aircraft I fly (172P, 172R 172S, PA28-181 and 182-RG). In all cases you should be able to get in with an instructor (provided they're 12 - 13 st), but would be limited to about 2/3rds fuel to get within the weight and balance limits. The C of G will be pretty far forward, but within the envelope, and you could always put a few pounds of ballast at the back of the luggage compartment (which I think BEagle suggested).

When I was at the club (http://www.wycombeaircentre.co.uk/) the other week there was someone who was learning in a 172 as they were a bit too big for a 152.

Brooklands
(who wouldn't come to any harm if he lost a stone or two:) )

mazzy1026

19th Mar 2004, 13:13

I have nothing but good will for you mate and know you will do it.

I have been waiting for a thread like this for a long time. I am 6ft 2.5 and weigh around 17 stone. My BMI bounces between 29 and 31 (fluctuations in weight due to failed dieting).

I always wanted to know whether I would pass the class 1 nedical but couldnt seem to find out anywhere for definate.

I rang the CAA and spoke to a lady and she told me as long as I am not in the obese category (30) then I would be OK. However for the class 2 - all's you need is to look OK and not be physically challenged in any way.

If I wanted to learn in a Tomahwak I would need a small instructyor so I have just gone for the Warrior instead.

Dont listen to anyone who says you wont be able to do it - obviously there are safety factors involved, and even though this may limit certain areas, it certainly wont stop you !

My plan is to try and get down to 16 stone. It really does pi55 me off and I agree that the BMI is a waste of time - even if the statistics show that the higher the BMI, the more chance you have of heart disease etc - this is not a definative way to look at the situation and is only a broad view. I have a fair bit of muscle and am naturally well built - my ideal weight (according to the BMI) would be 14 stone and I am telling you now - if I was 14 stone - I would seriously start looking ill and would have to move around in the shower to get wet - I would be able to look through a keyhole with both eyes.

Seriously though, away from the jokes, follow englishal's advice and tell yourself you can do it - cos you can !

Best of luck and bonvoyage to the weight

:ok:

mad_jock

19th Mar 2004, 13:38

:D I am sure all instructors have seen examiners lie about there weight so they can get full fuel.

I knew the examiner wanted full fuel. So got it refueled, student then asks how heavy the examiner is. I make a quick guess at 8Okg (more like 110kg) and off the student goes.

10 mins later student walks up to both of us and announces that the plane was over weight by 5kg. Examiner annouces its ok i have just been for a dump. Go and do the checks.

Another one is short ladys with large chests. Wondered what was consricting the controls in the flare. The giggle next to me made me look to see the poor girl hooked on the yoke by her bra on the stopwatch clip.

I don't think the BMI for class 1 is 30. There are many pilots out there which are over that (me for a start) I asked my AME about it and he said it was a factor in the whole equation. Because my heart rate is 65 and I have border line low blood pressure. The fact i am a fat bastard gets ignored, the other 2 indicators means i don't get moaned at for my weight. This doesn't transfer across to smoking i might add.

I am in at the AME on monday for a class 1 so will ask him then. It might get his attention away from giving me serious looks about smoking.

MJ

Pronto

19th Mar 2004, 14:04

The relevant section of the JAA medical FCL is at http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/435247.pdf . The bit that deals with BMI is para 3.179(e) on page 17 (of 46). The annex referred to in that paragraph is on page 40 (of 46).

In essence, people with a BMI of 35 or more (see caveat) may only be certified as fit if the excess weight is not likely to interfere with the safe exercise of the privileges of the licence. A satisfactory cardiovascular risk review must be undertaken. The caveat is that the JAA have not drawn the symbol particularly well and I may be misreading BMI of “over 35” for the (slightly) more restrictive “35 or more”.

The annex states that abnormal physique (including obesity) may require a flight test or a test in a simulator. Particular regard must be had to emergency procedures and evacuation.

I think it’s worth remembering that flying schools are businesses. If they turn a potential customer away, they must have good reasons for doing so. In this case it’ll be either because the aircraft which form their fleet are too small for Darul to get into, or they have safety issues.

I can think of two such issues, there may be more. Firstly, if a pilot can’t get out of an aircraft with ease, he or she puts himself and any passengers in the rear seats (who may need to use the pilots exit) at heightened risk. Even if the pilot (and passengers) is prepared to accept the risk, any incident on an aerodrome will necessitate the attendance of the RFFS who will be put at greater risk in trying to save a mobility impaired pilot. Remember, the RFFS have the risk imposed on them.

Secondly, Genghis mentions a risk of damage to the aircraft structure by very heavy occupants. Remember, the damage you’ve just caused may not be apparent now. The next guy to fly the aircraft may find out about it the hard way. Possibly the clubs/schools concerned are trying to exercise their duty of care towards their other customers.

Finally so far as Darul is concerned, I think that you have two hurdles. First in finding an aircraft that’s large enough to take you. By this I mean the doors open wide enough, the seats are wide enough and the aircraft is capable of safely lifting you, your instructor and sufficient fuel.

The second hurdle is to obtain a medical certificate.

The question of which you do first is a “chicken ‘n’ egg” question which only you can answer, based on what schools have told you when they refused your business.

Early in the thread somebody mentioned the TB9. My experience of TB’s is that the seats are no wider than a PA28’s and are less adjustable. (There’s no rake adjustment for the seatback alone, for example). Furthermore, while the cabin may be wider, there’s a centre console (which carries the throttle, mixture controls etc) that restricts space. Entry to the cockpit is by way of “gull wing” doors (hinged at the top). While they provide a generous gap, it’s no more generous than a Warriors door fully opened.

Finally I endorse the earlier view which says that you may have to accept that your size prevents you ever being a pilot. Flying is (quite rightly) something that requires a level of medical fitness, not only for your sake, but for those who may be affected by your actions. Regrettably, it may be that you’ll just have to accept that or will have to make the effort to loose the excess.

P

ACW 335

19th Mar 2004, 17:38

I don't see much wrong with the Atkins diet (from my sports science knowledge about the body and how it utilises different nutrients) - Just make sure you have some carbs in it! ow about, go for a trial flight, get training and once you hav lost a bit, allow yourself a couple of lessons, and once you have lost a bit more, have another couple of lessons and so on. Be strict with yourself, see it as a goal NOT a barrier. Perhaps you could cycle to and from your lessons - do a bit more on the way! The hardest bit is getting back into bing 'fit' - the first bit is painful, but once you are there, you start to enjoy it! Why not get a personal fitness instructor or someone to go to the gym with - just for motivation! Set yourself targets rather than jumping in at the deep end - targets are far more rewarding!
Darul, do you smoke?

Flyin'Dutch'

19th Mar 2004, 18:42

Cheers for that link.

So BMI of 35 or more only fit subject to an additional assessment, but no ban as such.

FD

Monocock

19th Mar 2004, 21:49

englishal

Can relate to your story really well.

Cycling and a healthy diet makes a lardy into a very very fit person very quickly indeed. I cycle daily (20 minutes) and have given up on ****ey foods like crisps, chocolate etc and I feel and look a lot better.

Do yourself a favour and do some proper exercise. If you do you'll find weight loss 100% easier than some silly Atkins malachy........
:ok:

IO540

20th Mar 2004, 08:10

May I ask how Americans manage? As a nation, they have a much bigger weight/obesity problem than the UK, and they can't all be flying Bonanzas :O

One CFI told me that a particular Cessna, if FAA registered, could carry a lot more weight. The CAA reduced it for the UK POH.

mazzy1026

20th Mar 2004, 08:24

Good point mono

Its sometimes quite hard to mix excersise with full time work. When I getr home at about 5-6pm the last thing I wanna do is go excersising. So I have tea and relax for a couple of hours, maybe surf the net, come on here etc. Then about 9pm after food is digested, the roads are quiet and I go for a run round the block (big block - about 2 miles) its not far but I plod along slowly and squeeze 20 mins out of it. 20 mins is the minimum you should aim for.

I bought a reebok skipping rope and holy cr*p its hard to use - i'd be lucky to get 30 seconds out of it but VERY good for CV workout !

Running firms up the legs first and then you will slowly start to notice the results further up the body - I think its the hardest excersise a human can do aint it ? Correct me if i'm wrong.

Enjoy

Maz

shortstripper

20th Mar 2004, 09:23

Blimey!

Perhaps there is something to be said for being a farmer. I eat whatever I like and rarely put on any weight ... my colestrol has got a bit dodgy though, so I guess I'll have to cut down on the Stilton :ugh:

Seriously though, I reckon BMI is a load of old tosh as it doesn't take into account body type. Before anyone comments, yes there IS a difference and weight v height just isn't a good enough way to measure. My wife should only weigh 8 stone for her height ... she is a bit overweight but once got down to 9.5 and looked really ill!

Do try to loose a bit of weight ... excercise beats any diet, but don't get so hung up on it as to spoil life (sounds like you know that anyway).

Good luck with the flying.

SS

BEagle

20th Mar 2004, 11:45

Well, I reckon with a Warrior with an empty weight of 1543 lb and arm of 85.96 in, to get your 25 stone plus a 170 lb FI into the ac, you could only just carry 'tabs' fuel of 28.3 imp gall - but only if you put 75 lb of ballast in the luggage compartment. That'd get you to the extreme corner of the trim envelope at the forward limit and max weight. Any less ballast and you'd go out of the front of the envelope.....

So you could probably learn to fly in a Warrior - but you'd have to bring a 75 lb bag of ballast with you and tie it down securely in the baggage compartment on every dual trip.

You would never be able to fly a Warrior dual in the 'utility' category as even without any fuel or ballast at all, you'd be 43lb over the limit.

mad_jock

22nd Mar 2004, 11:37

Spoke to the AME today and he confirms all that has been said on the medical side of things. There is no ban as such but it would sound warning bells.

I think Gengis has more valid points to note about the seat loadings etc. I believe there is also a paper work exercise which can increase the max all up weight of a PA28. The only difference appears to be a slight increase in the pref charts and always using 1 stage of flap for TO.

MJ

Genghis the Engineer

22nd Mar 2004, 11:59

The PA28 Type Data Sheet can be downloaded here (about 170kb .pdf) (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/62576bf580f2d27586256b5700597808/$FILE/2a13.pdf), whilst for some models it shows different MTOW for different serial numbers, and for some others a lower MTOW in the utility category, the only mod I can see (notes 26 and 27) raise the maximum ramp weight by 7 lb, but have no effect upon take-off weight. (Not quite sure what that's about, anybody know?)

G

mad_jock

22nd Mar 2004, 13:06

It could be that the UK POH is more restrictive than the FAA one. And by paying the 1800 quid I think. You can legally fly to the FAA limits.

If you want to dig deeper G i can PM you the reg of the plane to find out what they actaully did to its paper work. I know there was no modification structurally and it maybe also it isn't allowed a Public C of A any more.

MJ

DamienB

22nd Mar 2004, 14:48

mad_jock - I spoke to an AME today who categorically stated they wouldn't pass anybody for a class 2 with a BMI of more than 30-31.

So at 25 stone - no chance in hell.

I'm porky enough to have to go with a NPPL medical declaration for the time being :{

englishal

22nd Mar 2004, 15:20

Must be differing opinions of AME's. I think that at your medical, the AME makes a judgement based upon you physique. Its no good stating "no one over 30 BMI will get a medical" becasue quite frankly the BMI index is a "guide" to "the average person".

My brother in law is a twig, tall, reasonably skinny, athletic and weights about 170lbs. My other brother in law is short, heavy, and solid (guess thats why Uncle Sam employs him in the 101st Airbourne). Now according to the BMI, the short arse has a lot higher BMI than the tall one, probably over 30, but can you tell me, without even seeing them, that the short one *will* fail a medical due to BMI?....don't think so....

EA

mad_jock

22nd Mar 2004, 16:54

Well i can tell you one that will consider it as long as the rest of you is fit.

MJ

mazzy1026

22nd Mar 2004, 17:27

Yeah cant see how the AME has said that - I spoke to my local AME and he said he wouldnt even look at the BMI - he would just look at you to see if you looked OK ! As long as you are not physically restricted - there is no reason to fail. I guess there is no definitive ruling so it is up to the individual AME.

Well i'm off out for a run in a while to put word to practice !

Cheers

Maz

redsnail

22nd Mar 2004, 18:43

For an initial Class 1 at Gatwick if you're over 35 on the BMI then it is a fail. How an AME can fail someone for a class 2 with a lesser BMI is a bit puzzling, scare tactics maybe? ;)

QDMQDMQDM

22nd Mar 2004, 19:43

as long as the rest of you is fit

If your BMI is high enough you are, by definition, not fit. It's not "Oh yeah, my BMI is 33 but I'm just heavy boned." It's "My BMI is 33 and I am way too fat."

Seriously though, I reckon BMI is a load of old tosh as it doesn't take into account body type

This is complete and utter garbage. Of course it takes into account body type because for any given height there is a range of weights which will give you a BMI in the normal range. This adjusts for physique. It is a very good and useful indicator. If you don't like it suggest a basis for another rational, dead simple measure of body fat, applicable across the population.

Forgive my tone of frustration. It comes from sitting all day listening to a procession of grossly obese people who, funnily enough, eat nothing but lettuce and seem to be taking in calories from the air!

QDM

mad_jock

22nd Mar 2004, 20:03

So what happens in my case then when i am fat but low blood pressure and low/normal heart rate.

As measured today

6ft 105kg 104/54 and 66 resting and a 19 colestrol level what ever that scale is.

I know your a doctor QDM and and i am not having a go, I am more interested in how these things are meant, we get these numbers thrown at us and they don't mean alot. I was quoting the AME this morning. I should really be in the <85kg range i think, but it ain't going to happen. Last time i was that weight i was playing front row for the colts team and the other prop was heavier.

He was maybe covering his backside in case the 25stone person turns out to be the loose head prop for England.

MJ

redsnail

22nd Mar 2004, 20:04

QDM,
Isn't it the overactive gland theory? :D

Whirlybird

22nd Mar 2004, 20:13

Do you lot ever read what someone asks? Do you ever think of actually answering the question?

Darul didn't ask how to lose weight. He didn't ask whether it was good or bad for his health to weigh 25 stone, or whether he might or might not lose it through Atkins or running or starvation or what have you.

HE WANTS TO LEARN TO FLY!!!! NOW, not next year when he may or may not have lost weight.

darul,

You are absolutely right; you don't have to wait to be thin to do what you want. However, the first thing to do is see if you can pass a medical. From all that's been said here, it's not certain one way or the other. If you can't, then try for the NPPL. You should be just fine for that.

After that - well, you've been told the types you might well be able to learn in, and the snags. It sounds like it might be difficult for you, but not impossible.

So...what are you waiting for? Get on the phone, and find a school that's got a type you can learn in. Don't listen to all this irrelevant nonsense about dieting and exercising; it's all very good and all that, but has nothing to do with what you asked. Get out there and GO FOR IT AND LEARN TO FLY!!! Good luck. :ok: :ok: :ok:

Whirly
(who's spent a lifetime struggling with her weight, though not a lot of people know that now, and therefore gets mad at the fat-ists and diet fascists, however much they justify it all by references to health)

J.A.F.O.

23rd Mar 2004, 02:56

:ok: WELL SAID WHIRLY :ok:

Flyin'Dutch'

23rd Mar 2004, 13:42

Damein B wrote:
mad_jock - I spoke to an AME today who categorically stated they wouldn't pass anybody for a class 2 with a BMI of more than 30-31.
Damien,

That AME is incorrect and if that is the reason why you are go are going to do the NPPL then I would suggest you contact the AME and or the CAA and get this sorted.

It quite clearly states in the guidelines (quoted earlier on in this thread) that people that have a BMI of 35 or above may need furhter assessment to see if they are fit to fly but that is not the same as a fail.

So redsnail's quote is not entirely correct at:
For an initial Class 1 at Gatwick if you're over 35 on the BMI then it is a fail.
Let's stick to facts not fiction, interpretations etc.

FD

FlyingForFun

23rd Mar 2004, 14:24

Whirly,

Since when has a PPRuNe thread, especially one in this forum, not been dragged off topic? ;)

I'm sure that Darul will read all of the advice, pick out those bits which apply to him, and ignore the rest... just as we all do when we ask a question and the following conversation ends up going off-topic. I'm also sure that, despite this being a slightly more personal issue than many of the questions that get asked, he won't take any of the responses personally and be offended by them!

Please tell me I'm right, Darul? :cool:

FFF
-------------

Shaggy Sheep Driver

23rd Mar 2004, 15:41

Nice one, Whirly:ok:. There's an awful lot of prigishness on this thread.

dural - it almost certainly can be done. Don't be put off by some of the posts on here. Flying is the msot amazing thing you'll ever do - go for it;)

SSD (self confessed fat bastard:) )

Whirlybird

23rd Mar 2004, 16:51

FFF,

I got back from holiday, and read all five pages of this thread at once. Maybe it gives a different impression that way. But it went off topic almost immediately...and stayed there.

Do you know what happens when you're seriously overweight? You go and see the doctor with a sore finger, and he tells you to lose weight. Your partner leaves you, and people think it's because of your weight. You feel tired due to overworking and too many late nights, and everyone says it's your weight that's the problem. You get some lunch in mid-afternoon, the first chance you've had, and people go: "Eating again!" Etc etc etc ad infinitum.

If darul had asked about a suitable aircraft for someone who was 4 ft tall, disabled, or financially impoverished, there would have been all sorts of relevant advice. But because it's weight we're talking about, the general response was to persuade him to change himself. Ah, you say, but this is a problem that he can solve. Well, (a) he said early on that he'd tried and can't, and (b) losing weight takes ages even when successful, and he wants to learn to fly NOW.

SSD had it right; there's a hell of a lot of priggishness on here. I was simply being relatively polite.

darul, flying is FUN!!!! And everyone should have fun, including 25 stone bods, so go for it. :ok:

BEagle

23rd Mar 2004, 17:05

However, it's only reasonable to point out the problems he might face. Most light ac aren't designed to cope with people quite that big and he'll find the embug.gerance of having to tie 75lb of ballast into the luggage compartment of a Warrior just to get 'tabs' fuel in for dual sorties a pain in the parts.

But good luck with whatever you do to achieve your aim!

Penguina

23rd Mar 2004, 17:25

I'm with Whirly. Wanted to say the same thing several days ago but wasn't brave enough.

And, yes, all threads go off-topic, but this is a very personal issue for people who have to be careful with their weight (I will never be able to forget about it - an OK weight IS much harder to achieve for some than for others) and shouldn't be treated flippantly. Probably why it was raised on this anonymous forum in the first place, rather than with clubs direct.

We haven't heard from darul for a while - hope he hasn't stopped reading.

mazzy1026

23rd Mar 2004, 18:13

Come on people keep the positive vibes coming!

If anyone is interested I have designed a really good spreadsheet for monitoring weight graphically and statistically. It will convert your weight and give you the BMI - just enter your height and weight in stone/pounds each week and the graph wil show you your progress.

This isnt going to lose weight for you and by no means makes it any easier but it is a great way for self motivation and to "see" your progress.

PM me if you want a copy.

Regards

Maz

Polly Gnome

23rd Mar 2004, 20:52

Whirly

As (nearly) always you hit the nail on the head. Several times during this thread I have felt like writing

Do you all think Daryl has read your posts and thought 'oh I hadn't thought of that before, I'll lose weight, what an innovative idea!'

But unlike Whirly I wasn't brave enough.

DamienB

23rd Mar 2004, 21:19

Flyin'Dutch' - yes, I get that impression! Am simply going to try another AME. Wasn't intending on limiting myself to NPPL, just getting the NPPL fitness declaration so going solo isn't held up unnecessarily.

gingernut

24th Mar 2004, 14:05

Hang on, this guy's asked for help. I don't recall him asking our opinion on his weight.

Is it that constructive telling him he's a f.b. ?

Does anyone make judgements about our participation in a risk sport ? How would you feel if the casualty doc. said "I'm not referring you for spinal surgery, because you knew the risk when you went flying."

Aussie Andy

25th Mar 2004, 10:08

No matter how much we want to help our friend, I am afraid there will be practical issues for him - not just learning but renting afterwards.

I am a big guy - not ashamed to admit to 5'10 and 17 1/2 stone. This precludes, for example, spinning with an instructor in a PA38 for example, and can also mean max three people in a PA28-140 say with fuel to tabs!

These problems can be solved - with money as has been said (e.g. P28B = no worries for four rugby players a crate of beer and a big load of fuel). The point is to realise that the extra cost is not only going to be during training but also when renting.

Having said all that, if the guy has a goal and the finances it will surely make him feel great to achieve that goal: so save up and go for it!

Andy

ratsarrse

25th Mar 2004, 11:30

I'm a big lad myself - no amount of weight loss will alter that; I'm just well-built. It does rule out the 152 which does seem to be designed for midgets. I'm sure most 4 seaters will be fine. After all, most of them are American planes and the US is the lard capital of the world.

Being overweight is so hard to avoid these days. Lack of time, sedentary occupations, and the availability of convenience food see to that. Sure, you can use flying as an incentive to lose a bit of weight, but if you don't want to then **** what everybody else says. I've lost a bit of weight over the last few months and it's a right pain in the ass - you have to go shopping for new clothes...

MLS-12D

25th Mar 2004, 16:57

Well said, Aussie Andy! :ok:

I haven't reviewed the entire thread today, but as I recall there were only a few snide and unhelpful comments; the great majority of posts were well-meaning.

I don't think that we would be doing darul any favours by saying "flying is fun, just find a malleable AME and you're all set". Life is not so simple.

Apologies to Whirly if I have inadvertantly trivialized her point.

Genghis the Engineer

26th Mar 2004, 15:25

I think we've done weight and balance to death, and by the sound of it most people would rather diet regimes wasn't revisited either.

But, I thought I'd get the rulebook and slide-rule out and see what the implications are of an MW6-S(*) in an aerobatic aeroplane.

Just to recap, the classic Cessna / Piper trainers are stressed to +3.8g and 77kg (170lb) per seat. But, when you play with weights and safety factors, you find that the seat will give way at about 2.75g - which is well within normal g-limits, and also significantly slightly under the 3g value normally used as the hard landing case for undercarriage strength. So, there's a very good case for a 25 stone pilot not being permitted to fly in one of these for reasons of seat structure.

Now we talked about the Bulldog, which would have been certified to BCAR Section K, which was the UK light aircraft safety requirements up until the early 1990s. That (for aerobatic aeroplanes) requires a minimum of a +6g limit which means that the structure will actually be good for +9g (+50% is the usual safety factor for metal aircraft structures).

Section K also uses 170lb for seats normally, but 190lb (86kg) for seats designed to be used with a parachute (which I think we can take as a given for any aerobatic trainer).

So, assuming the usual safety factors, and no particular over-engineering, the Bulldog seat should fail at 86kg x 9g = 774kg downwards load.

Now 25 stone comes out at 159kg. Divide 159 into 774 and we get 4.85g, that's the loading at which the seat is likely to collapse, and certainly far more g than any heavy landing (or at least one in which the maingear is likely to have survived intact).

However, putting my aeronautical engineer's hat on again I'd still rather see than 1.5 safety factor being applied. So, dividing 4.85g we get 3.23g. That's more than most of us have any desire to pull if we aren't flying aerobatics, and beyond the likely design case for the undercarriage.

The American rules aren't significantly different and I think that you can assume that the same sums would apply to, say, a C150 aerobat (although the narrow cabin may present an entirely different challenge).

So, as long as our large pilot can fit in, and there's no problem concerning overall weight and balance (which is easily checked in 5 minutes) I think that structurally speaking, there shouldn't be any particular problem with a Bulldog - or for that matter any other aeroplane certified for aerobatics, albeit using it for non-aerobatic training.

Apologies if anybody things that this post probably belongs in tech log, but the thread did start here and hopefully this is of some use to somebody.

G

(*) MW6-S is a type of PFA homebuilt aeroplane, I leave you lot to find it's other name.

Whirlybird

26th Mar 2004, 16:40

Good on ya Genghis! Something completely relevant to the question that was asked, ie what aircraft would be suitable. Sounds to me like your post belongs here. :ok:

Microheavy

27th Mar 2004, 21:53

Anyone interested should have a look at mazzy1026's BMI spread sheet, very usefull tool indeed.

darul

3rd Apr 2004, 12:21

Thanks Genghis the Engineer,
at last a real answer! I would also like to say thank you to everybody for thier concern regarding my weight, i really do appreciate the advice and support that you offer. I'm trying another diet at the moment and hopefully will start learning to fly soon.

I wish to add..........
Being overweight is a problem that I created myself and am not one of these people who blames the world for something thats my fault, i'm also the type of person who could'nt give a s**t what people say about me but..........
some of the reply's on this topic have been very cruel not everybody who is fat is able to ignore hurtful comments. There are many fat people out there who hate themselves so much that they won't even leave thier homes because of people like those on here that can only offer ridicule. I wonder if some of you would also make fun of the disabled etc, I just hope that you bring your children up better than yourselves and teach them that there are many different types of people in the world and that they should not be judged by apperence alone.

Darul.

mazzy1026

3rd Apr 2004, 12:42

Well said Darul and nice to see you back in the post. Keep us all informed of how well you will do.

Best wishes and good luck

Maz :ok: :D :) :O :cool:

mad_jock

3rd Apr 2004, 13:25

Well done m8.

Why don't you set yourself a goal wieght loss. Then when you reach it. Reward is a trial flight or next lesson. The practical side of things have been said by G. But as most flying schools are driven by making money i am sure you will find someone out there willing to teach you.

For gawds sake don't turn this thread into another pink headset thread :D but I for one will be more than willing to help with questions in your progress through the system.

MJ

MrBitsy

23rd Sep 2005, 22:58

I don't think there is a BMI requirement as I am 25 stone and 6ft 5. I went for the medical but the doctors scales didn't get up to my weight, so he called the CAA. They said I would have to go for a "medical flight test", to make sure I can get into and out of the aircraft and not obstruct the controls. If I pass that I can fly.

Ray Keattch.

slim_slag

25th Sep 2005, 09:22

That's interesting, sounds something like the FAA SODA. Could be a useful precedent, but probably not. Did you find out who will perform this 'medical flight test', and would your certificate be limited to the specific aircraft type?

IO540

26th Sep 2005, 05:29

Haven't read the whole thread but something occurs to me: if I fly alone I need to run the left tank down a bit. I have very accurate gauges so I run it about 3mm below the right one, and then there is no need for a constant aileron offset.

I weigh 75kg. If I weighed double that, I would need to run the left tank down a LOT more, and while one can compensate to a degree using the rudder trim, the plane would end up flying in a very funny way!

This is on a TB20, which has bigger tanks than most. I'd guess than on a C150 or similar one would need to fly with the left tank empty, to have a balanced aircraft. These don't have a rudder trim, either, so it must be tiring to be constantly hanging onto the RH side of the yoke.