Using your new IMC rating

[spikeair]

Having recently obtained an IMC rating, I was interested to find out how other pilots got on using theirs. What was it like going into cloud solo for the first time. Did you use your rating in anger and fly an instrument approach in real IMC.
Did you find it scary in anyway?
Peoples initial experiences of the rating would be interesting.

[FlyingForFun]

I think this has the potential to become a very good thread!

My aircraft is day-VFR only, which makes it difficult to use my IMC rating. Until I got busy doing things like a CPL and FIC, which don't leave me much time to do my own thing, I used to try to use the IMC rating once a month. That would involve hiring a Cessna from my club (about four times the hourly rate of my own aircraft, but never mind), finding a safety pilot, and putting on a pair of foggles if there didn't happen to be any real cloud around.

Because of the hassle of booking a suitable aircraft, I have flown in clouds without an instructor next to me only a couple of times. Neither time was anywhere near as serious as the type of cloud I was flying in during the IMC training - a little bit of fair-weather cumulous once, and a broken stratus layer at about 2000' once - so no, it wasn't at all scary.

The last time I flew in clouds was a couple of months ago. I'd recently completed my CPL, so I'd had plenty of practice at instrument flying on the CPL course, but no approaches. In fact, it had been nearly three months since I'd last flown an approach. On the day I had the aircraft booked, there was an overcast layer at around 1200', which was getting very close to my own self-imposed minima.

I was debating whether or not to fly, and was just on the verge of driving home when I bumped into my IMC instructor. She'd had to cancel some PPL lessons due to the weather, so I asked if she wanted to fly with me. Definitely the right choice. My handling skills were pretty good, which wasn't surprising since I'd been practicing them on the CPL course. But I'd lost the ability to plan ahead, and was making silly mistakes like forgetting pre-landing checklists, not being 100% aware of where I was at times, and so on. Nothing life-threatening (although the lack of pre-landing checks could have been aircraft-threatening if it was one of those fancy aeroplanes where the wheels go up and down!!!) but enough to remind me how important it is to stay current.

And, now I know all about currency, have I kept current? Erm, no - been too busy doing the FIC to have any time to do instrument flying for the last couple of months.

FFF
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[DRJAD]

Just before (!) getting my IMC rating, I took some friends on a trip from my home field. Shortly after leaving the circuit we were in inadvertant IMC. Did the usual thing, and turned through a 180 {rate 1} and returned to the field (where we drank hot beverages until the weather had cleared somewhat.) The reassurance of having had most of the required training by then made the plan and action following getting into IMC a learned manoeuvre - rather than a panicked reaction. That was useful.

Since getting the rating flying activity has been less frequent (owing both to the depredations of my bank balance involved in obtaining the rating, and the generally mouldy weather making it not suitable to take friends for sight-seeing, etc.!) However, I did make an ILS approach to landing at Humberside a few weeks ago which was in and out of IMC. No perceived problems, so the practice ante IMC rating examination has stayed with me - fortunately.

[mark147]

spikeair,

I'm still part-way through my training for the IMC but some of that has been in real IMC. The one thing that struck me is how much more difficult it gets when you're actually in cloud than when you're training in VMC with foggles on.

If you've not experienced real IMC in your training, I'd recommend trying it with an instructor. As soon as you get inside a convective cloud, it's suddently considerably bumpier and so you find yourself having to concentrate much more on just holding heading/altitude; forward planning gets very hard.

Losing that last tiny bit of visual reference out of the corner of your eye that you think you're not paying any attention to also makes a surprising amount of difference.

Mark

[yawningdog]

I agree with Mark147. Before you try to fly solo in IMC, make sure you feel you've had good dual practice in real cloud without foggles rather than under the hood. There's a big difference.

Then, I'd recommend flying solo in very poor visibility but where you can see the ground. Then, in better conditions but with a reasonable layer of stratus, base 2500, tops 4000, plog a route that allows for straight line climbs & descents where you are unlikely to get ATC re-route requests. You could also use an aircraft with has a basic autopilot, heading bug, wing leveller as a backup. But know how to use it first.

You've got all the time in the world to build confidence, and only a second to screw it up. Eliminate risks by being careful and methodical.

[Squadgy]

I recently completed my IMC and was looking forward to some solo practice (with appropriate radar service of course!). Unfortunately the artifical horizon has went tech on the groups aircraft the day after the licence arrived back :\

My plan is to try and fly through some thin layered cloud at first to become pop out after a short while 'on top'. After a while, as my confidence improves, I'd hope to maintain a longer period in IMC. Hopefully at this stage all my flights will contain an element of IMC.

As regards approaches I think that I'll fly Instrument Approaches in VMC at first and then build in IMC approches as my general confidence and ability improves

[duir]

Not long after getting the IMC rating I set off from Teeside to Blackpool with some freinds in good weather and rapidly entered IMC over the Penines. The weather at Blackpool still sounded ok so I pressed on. It was very arousing indeed to be in real cloud, bouncing around with no visual reference whatsoever. However the strangest thing by far was not having my 16000 hour instructor/get out of jail free card to play. Luckilly nearly all of my IMC rating was done in horrible weather, dense clouds, turbulence, strong winds and low vis so I was well versed emotionally to cope. As I decended on the ILS at Blackpool we broke into blazing sunshine and 9999. What a boost to my confidence and it felt like "Real Flying" as there was a Ryanair 737 breathing down my neck. My freinds were impressed enough to buy me fish and chips! Only trouble was we had to return through it, icing and all....but thats another story.

Still don't think PPLs with IMCs should go looking for trouble and a Safety Pilot, preferably an IMC too at the very least is essential for practicing this stuff.

[Keef]

I worked my way up slowly, with the instructor alongside me sometimes, till I'd happily take off into a 1200 foot overcast and route through the clag (below the icing) to wherever I was going.

That's not something I'd recommend without good preparation, but it's very satisfying to know that cloud along the way is no bar.

Inevitably, it led to frustration at not being able to use the rating abroad, so on to the FAA IR (achievable to anyone with an IMC rating and time to do the additional training). All I need now is the trusty group steed to move to the N-reg (this year, I hope).

The IMC rating is an excellent "taster", and a very useful rating in the UK. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to tour the UK on a regular basis.

[KCDW]

I don't know.

I passed my IMC this time last year, and have been in it 3 times since. Once with an instructor, and twice this winter when desperate to see some sun :). Both of the latter occasions were in pretty benign conditions: 7/8 clouds 2-5k ft, no turbulance.

To help currency, I practice it probably monthly on Microsoft FS, and certainly had no issues during the 3 real occasions last year. The time with the instructor, I flew a pretty good NDB/DME let down with the cloud base at 1000'. I'm pretty sure I could have done it on my own.

The problem is - was it worth it? I guess a qualified YES is the answer. The major benefit for me is that the accuracy of my flying has improved 100%.

However, unless you are looking to do regular IMC flying, you just don't get the opportunity to do so. Most of my flying is joy riding with friends and family in VMC.

Therein the dilemma - unless you keep current, it is more of a danger than a blessing. And if you are normally a VMC flyer, what is the incentive to keep current?

[IO540]

The IMC Rating is a great and useful privilege to have. Unless one has a de-iced turbocharged or turboprop aircraft, it is probably nearly as useful as the full IR. I wish other countries had it.

But whether somebody can actually make use of it depends on several factors, most of which are not present in the typical UK GA situation.

You need to have a decent instructor, one who flies IFR for real, not just the usual type who gets you to do some NDB holds. These types are rare. An experienced IR instructor will have a very different perspective.

You need to get access to a decent plane, in which the avionics not only actually work but also have been properly tested and calibrated. Most school planes are not in this category because training is done in VMC, and even if you can find an instructor who will train in IMC, he isn't likely to be overly concerned that the VOR receiver or the ADF haven't been looked at for 10 years and the DME reads whatever it wants to. A panel mounted GPS is also highly desirable, as is an autopilot; these two will dramatically reduce the average workload.

You need to keep current, perhaps a minimum of 30-50 hours a year, with a fair bit of IMC flying within that. And the currency needs to be on the type, not on a variety of unrelated types, pottering about on nice sunny days.

The above requirements tend to mean that you need to either be an owner (a great way to get flying done, at similarly great expense :O ) or be in a syndicate whose other members are sufficiently solvent and committed to IFR flight to readily cough up when something in the panel needs fixing. Most syndicates have too many "VFR only" members and people who want to fly IFR tend to sell out before things get ever worse.

Re foggles, I am convinced that flying with foggles is much harder than flying in IMC for real. With foggles, one can't scan the panel properly while reading e.g. approach plates. With foggles one can also cheat easily; the proper "IFR hood" stops that but makes it even harder to scan, it is like peering through a pair of binoculars.

The IMCR transforms one's ability to fly from A to B at a pre-planned date, and come back as planned. My guess (looking at weather and whether I would have done it as a PPL-only) would be a 5x reduction in cancelled intra-UK journeys. This is true even though most of the said journeys are, on the day, done mostly or wholly in VMC. It is just that a prudent pilot would not have done them without the IMC option.

To significantly improve the cancellation rate, I would want a turbo or turboprop plane certified for known ice, and by that I mean something better than some dog of an old twin with rubber boots covered in stuck-on patches... and preferably pressurised. That's a load of $$$$$$$$$$. I suppose a TB21 with full TKS (£300k) would be the baseline.

Incidentally, with the IMCR, you can fly VMC on top over France. This option is very useful.

[Aussie Andy]

Incidentally, with the IMCR, you can fly VMC on top over France. This option is very useful. I'd love to think it's true, but have generally heard otherwise... are you sure?

[FlyingForFun]

There is a lot of debate about this. Basically, what it comes down to, as I understand it, is this:

The PPL restricts you to, amongst other things, flight "clear of clouds, in sight of the surface".

The IMC rating removes several restrictions from your license, including, when in Class D or lower airspace, the restrictions on flying "clear of clouds, in sight of the surface". However, the IMC rating is only valid in the UK.

The French authorities will tell you that, when flying France, you can do anything which is legal in France, unless the UK authorities tell you that you can't.

The dubious bit is how the UK authorities interpret the rules about their own rating. The way I read the rules, if you're flying outside the UK, then all of the restrictions which the IMC rating lifts are immediately put back in place. In other words, you're restricted to flight in sight of the surface once again.

However, certain PPRuNers have, I believe, had it in writing from the CAA that the UK-only restriction means that you can not fly IFR outside the UK. Although this is not the way that I read the legislation, if this were the case, then you could legally fly VFR above the clouds (but remember that in certain conditions you have to have at least a minimum vertical separation from the clouds when VFR, whether above or below) outside the UK.

I don't think that answers the question, though - sorry!

FFF
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[tomcs]

Hi guys...

I got my IMC last year and since then i've used it a reasonable amount. In fact yesterday i just did an hour of practicing NDB tracking and holds in IMC. Having said that the main usage has been to go VMC on top tracking beacons enroute or taking cross cuts.

I start the CPL next week so hopefully any instrument flying i have to do (now that its all changed) wont be too stressful.

Tom

[DRJAD]

IO540 - that's a useful post: thanks for the perspective from the experienced IMCR pilot viewpoint. As a new IMCR holder, I had been wondering about the order of more possible and planned UK flights. To read of the possible 5x change is helpful.

Ref. use of foggles, I'm happy to hear that they are not the perfect solution to removing outside reference whilst training, and they are certainly physically infuriating! However, I think much depends on the attitude of the student using them: if one tries, hard, to gain the maximum benefit by resisting even trying to use the 'corner of the eye' glimpse outside the aircraft, then the lesson immediately assumes a greater degree of utility, It's like anything else, use it properly, for the intended purpose, and the contrivance will assist: attempt to misuse it, and it will only cause trouble to oneself (in this case by making the 'expensive' training less effective than it might otherwise be.)

My training was conducted usually using foggles, and I certainly found it effective.

Used the skills in some marginal IMC yesterday for an approach and landing, and found no unexpected difficulty. The main feeling is that the increased accuracy in handling, imparted by the training, made the approach easily manageable.

[IO540]

FFF

Perhaps a better way to look at this, already mentioned here I believe, is that a basic ICAO PPL doesn't restrict you to be in sight of the surface. The CAA chooses to add this restriction to the UK PPL (among other things, e.g. increasing "VFR" from 1500m to 3000m).

When you get the IMCR, this requirement to be in sight of the surface is removed. While the IMCR itself is valid UK only (the ANO says as much) the aforementioned removal is not thus restricted.

The French DGAC has not restricted its version of the ICAO PPL to be in sight of the surface.

I have this much in writing from the CAA. The pretty clear email has since been distributed to various people and nobody has seen any problems with it (e.g. a CAA official writing in ignorance). If you'd like a copy, PM me.

I would like to know whether the Spanish authorities also allow VMC on top. It's a handy option.

Obviously it's not useful to somebody with the most basic PPL training, or flying a poorly equipped plane, because one has to navigate fully IFR while up there, and (this bit won't be legal...) one may have to climb/descend through the stuff at some point. Presumably this is why French clubs often bar members/renters from doing it. I must admit it is slightly odd, given that the person with the privilege hasn't had the training to navigate on top. But one could make the same point regarding PPL flight in 3km vis, which is legal everywhere but is basically IMC anyway.

[M14P]

Slightly off topic:
I am trying to run a PPL workload experiment in a light A/C simulator under controlled conditions. The aim is to promote Human Factors awareness in the Light GA arena.

I need a spread of experience from within the PPL community (no Pros allowed!) - some recently qualified IMC pilots would be extremely useful as well as more experienced chaps. PM me or email me thru the site if you are interested in volunteering (or want more info). It will take place in the South East.

IO540; interested?

[Nosewheel1st]

When I did the IMC I had it drummed into me by my F/I never to launch off into known IMC conditions - besides the problems already mentioned of calibration of instruments etc. the rating is simply not good enough to enable us to fly in IMC safely.

My understanding is that its useful to get you out of trouble and does improve your skill for VFR.

IMHO - if you want to fly routes in cloud then get an IR (if you can afford it!) and a de-iced/airways plane and fly every week to keep current!

[High Wing Drifter]

When I did the IMC I had it drummed into me by my F/I never to launch off into known IMC conditions - besides the problems already mentioned of calibration of instruments etc. the rating is simply not good enough to enable us to fly in IMC safely.
I have heard this many times and it still confused me. It somewhat seems like the aviation equivelent of the car Airbag. To my simplistic mind, surely after doing an IMC you are safe to fly in IMC (assuming currency, etc, etc) or by definition you haven't completed the IMC :confused:

Regarding the comparison of IMC to IR Isn't an IR a completely different bird in most respects. I imagine (i.e. I don't know) that the lower DH and the tolerances required to fly in controlled airspace warrent a significant chunk of the extra hours involved.

[IO540]

Nosewheel1st

When I did the IMC I had it drummed into me by my F/I never to launch off into known IMC conditions - besides the problems already mentioned of calibration of instruments etc. the rating is simply not good enough to enable us to fly in IMC safely.

This sort of b******s comes from many instructors and unless heavily qualified (i.e. suitable aircraft, currency etc needed), that's exactly what it is.

But then your average instructor is in no position to comment. If he ever had an IR, it had probably expired around the time you were born, and since then he's been doing the rounds of the (very) local countryside in as good VMC as he can get. Unless he is doing instructing just to get an airline job, in which case he's probably had even less time in actual IMC :O

Of course, the instructor isn't going to say

"I don't recommend you fly any of our planes in actual IMC because

a) they don't have adequate instruments

b) half the instruments that are there don't work

c) those that do appear to work haven't been calibrated EVER

d) We never paid to get the thing FM immune so you can't fly IFR in controlled airspace (even if you had the legally required instruments, which you don't have because we won't pay for maintaining them)

e) I wouldn't fly that piece of junk in IMC so I don't see why you should, and if you wreck it I will get dragged before the CAA for letting you do it...

"

There is little difference between an IR and an IMCR (in the GA low level flying context) if both are equally current, and there is little difference between an IR and the IMCR if both expired 5 years ago.

The IMC Rating is a great privilege to have and should not be constantly knocked as it is, by certain individuals in the trade. There are certainly problems with it but they are little to do with the rating itself; they are mostly concerned with the appalling standard of aircraft available for general hire, and with the fact that most people that are attracted to GA in the UK cannot afford to keep sufficiently current to make good use of it.