AIR EUROPE it. - purser removed by police in FCO

[cbavoidance]

An Air Europe Italy purser was off-loaded by the Captain and removed from the jet-way area by police last week in Rome, for failing to follow the Captain's instructions regarding flight deck security. The details are still emerging but reliable sources say that the flight was from Milan via Rome to the Maldives. During the Milan-Rome portion the purser brought a "visitor" on to the flight deck with out the Captain's permission and against current company policy (flight deck doors cannot be locked at Air Europe because the company has not issued keys to staff - keys are needed in case of pilot incapacitation).
When the flight landed in Rome the Captain called the purser to the flight deck to discuss the infraction and some other shortcomings of this particular individual. The purser became very angry and would not listen to what the Captain had to say or follow his instructions regarding security.
At the prospect of a 9 hour flight to the Maldives with this uncooperative purser, the Captain had no choice but to off-load him.
After his removal from the flight the purser tried to organize dissension amongst the other cabin crew from the jet-way, the Captain told him to leave the area and when he refused the Captain called the police to have him removed. The flight continued to the Maldives without any further incident.
On arrival in the Maldives the Captain received a fax from Air Europe to inform him that he was suspended due to his off- loading the purser in FCO and would not be allowed to travel back to Milan on an Air Europe flight. The Captain was effectively left stranded, had to contact the British Consular offices in Male to assist him to return to Milan.
On his arrival back in Milan the purser was assigned another flight without any action being taken against him by Air Europe.
On his eventual arrival back in Milan courtesy of Lauda Air, the Captain was FIRED :mad:
The Captain is now seeking legal advice.

My Grandad once told me, "In the war the Italian tanks had 1 forward gear and 10 reverse".............

[Obi Wan Kirk]

This is very sad news.

Unfortunately aviation is in a very baby and immature state in Italy. I reckon the Captain did the right thing.

I have flown in Italy as a FO and reported a Captain once because he almost tried to kill us by attempting a an almost kamikaze visual approach into Runway 11 at Orio and we were way high. The FA reported the passengers faces white with terror as they clamped onto their seats. We eventually landed halfway down the runway with 1400 fpm on the VSI, it was a hard landing! I reported this both to the Chief Pilot and the Director Flight Ops and almost got fired for critiscizing someone senior to me in rank. Fortunately after a few months other FOs had the courage to speak up about this Captain and the Director Flight Ops apologized and thanked me.

I have simpathy for the Air Europe Captain, but that's Italy!

[cbavoidance]

Cheers Obi Wan Kirk,
Me thinks ALL the ex-pats will be gone from Air Europe Italy soon.
Some ex-pats have even been called in to the Chief Spaghetti Maker's office thinking they were going to be upgraded, only to be told that they were not speaking Italian!!! :eek:

[recceguy]

Well, difficult to make an idea about this incident (I would rather agree with the Captain decision, but maybe there was something unknown to us?) (rather obvious, my statements tonight)
Italy... well, some foreigners don't even bother learning the local language, after two years they still imagine everybody has to speak english
Baby aviation in Italy ? Mmhh... some english speaking countries don't have 10% of the italian aerospace industry and history (follow my glance down south)...

And I'm not italian

[caulfield]

The Italians are a law unto themselves..I almost cringed when I saw Bush praising Italian-Americans on Columbus day.Their contribution to the USA?Organized crime.Yes,they're devilishly talented people but totally unreliable and unpredictable.In the light of recent events,the authority of the Captain should be emphasized all the more.What message is this company sending to its other crew by taking the action it took?Its okay to contradict and ignore the aircraft commander.Your job will be safe,the Captain will get the can.
I have worked in Italy and know well their shennanigans.Never again.

[Airbubba]

>>The Italians are a law unto themselves..I almost cringed when I saw Bush praising Italian-Americans on Columbus day.Their contribution to the USA? Organized crime...<<

Hey! You gotta problem wid dat???

[NigelOnDraft]

Anyone have a hint at the initials / vague identity of the Capt. concerned..?? Just that a recent ex-Nigel went to AE It., having left at BA's "invitation" for amongst other things, alleged differences with cabin crew.

Not asking for a name to be made public, but if anyone knows any more, it would be of interest if this is the same gentleman...

NoD

[MarkD]

Think of all the great films/tv we wouldn't have but for italian americans...

Godfather 1,2,3
Goodfellas
Casino
Sopranos
Untouchables
Get shorty...

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: MarkD ]

[ICU]

....and how about those bright RED cars...

[AltoAdige]

As an Italian living in America(not to be confused with Italian american) I must say i agree with every angry message against Italian Americans they are truly useless for society. As far as the Captain being fired for poor decision making. I think that
its still too early to really tell if it is just a decision based on panick or fact. I have travelled in Italy very often and I found problems exist mostly between Italians and foreigners. I think Italian culture and sense of humour etc.....are very misunderstood. Mix this missunderstanding in a company and there is trouble. I dont feel Italians are perfect by any means. Italians are as stubborn as the day is long and I feel the problems also lays in their unwillingness to open up to other ideas.
Aviation in Italy has progressed and has been effective. Its not perfect and just like in every other country in the world there is always room for improvement.

[Xenia]

Oh well....It happens that I am Italian to begin with :D and that I worked for AEI in the past....
We really don't know what happened there, but as a Purser myself I would have never gone agaisnt Capt. orders and/or Company policies :eek:
In regard of "Italians & Aviation" well...I flew in the U.K. as well for many years, where believe me...many airlines have worse "Mickey Mouse Operations" :rolleyes:
Ciao and... don't forget that...
ITALIANS DO IT BETTER :p

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: Xenia ]

[The Zombie]

So not 'Great' team work then. :eek:

When it 'all' falls apart, then the Captain carries the can and that includes the customer service aspects in most companies..

I have seen some crew try to userp the Captain's authority and it makes for a very difficult day.

Why do people bring their arogant attitudes and egos to work?
Just get on and do your job to the best of your abilities.

Cabin and flight crew are all ONE CREW and must be Captained as one or safety falls down and someone gets hurt usually. :confused:

Perhaps there is more to this one than we are aware of as yet.

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.......must sleep soon.

[flyblue]

It is interesting to see that you have such a strong opinion on something you know nothing about! :rolleyes:

[nobullshit]

Since you jump to conclusions without knowing the facts, let me enlighten you with the real situation: this Captain has had a long history with attitude problems and drinking...
After his latest show the company decided, and I can't blame them, that they had had enough with this fella, and that his contract would be terminated.
Now let's see the situation from a broader point of view: there are quite a few British pilots in AEI, and some of them are real nice guys. Most, however, are a bunch of drunkers rejected by most airlines around the world who ended up in Italy by bull****ting their way through interviews. Most have a pension in England, still they come to Italy and occupy positions that other, better pilots could take. I am Italian, and if I wanted to use my licence to work in England I might as well stuff it up my ...
Why is it that these guys can come to Italy and use their licence?
Most of them, after having spent years in Italy, still require everybody else to speak english to them. Do you think this is right? Well, I don't.
So, if it was up to me, pilots who want to work here should give up their pension back home, take an ATPL exam IN ITALIAN and try to dismiss the belief of being god's gift to the flying world. I have been flying for 25 years and have an excellent record: I DON'T NEED ANY EX BA HOTSHOT TO TEACH ME ANYTHING I DON'T ALREADY KNOW!
I hope I have clarified the situation, and I did it in english: I could have done it in French, Spanish or German. Could you do the same? Ah, and by the way, my Grandfather was awarded a gold medal for military bravery during ww2 for sending a few brits swimming in the harbour of Alexandria, and his little submarine vehicle only had a forward gear.

:p

[Capt Pit Bull]

Nobull****.

I sense you're holding something back.

Why not tell us what you really think!

;) CPB

[Obi Wan Kirk]

Dear nobull****,

I'd like to inform you that an Italian ATPL is accepted by the British CAA. All you need to do is take your logbooks and licences into the CAA at gatwick and have your experience assessed. Next step will be an Air law validation exam and then for a CAA inspector to observe you in the sim. You will then have a validation and be able to work in UK. As from Feb 2002 by turning in your Italian ATPL to Civilavia in Rome you'll be issued with a JAR ATPL and won't need a validation anymore to work in UK.

As for drinking, there are many foreigners flying in Italy with a drinking problem but there are also some very good professionals too. I think it's a matter of the airline to do a background check on these guys before hiring them. It only takes a few phone calls.

Next, there are Italian pilots working abroad and doing very well. One of the managers in the Emirates recruitment department is a A330 Captain and he's from Rome. He used to fly for Meridiana and decided to use this noble profession to travel the world and he is coming on very successfully.

[flyblue]

Nobull****,
I have worked in AEI for years (I don't any more) and I feel entitled to certify that your statements are a load of c**p.
Although very few Brit Cpt have proven being low range, the vast majority were estimated professionals I enormously enjoyed working with, and whose relation Cabin/Flight Deck I deeply miss.
Despite your name, your post sounds like what we call a "difesa d'ufficio" coming straight from a "trombato", or worse, a AEI staff member...that staff, all italian, that (with its bad faith, lack of ethics, amateurism and megalomany) eventually made me decide leaving the company for much healthier shores.

Regarding the facts, I know the Purser, and am very surprised of the matter, as he is a very professional an calm person.
But, even if the Capt in question were to blame, I find it appalling that he was left stranded out of the home base by the company without the possibility of an explanation.

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: flyblue ]

[torpedoe]

Nobull****.
The only person who ever got up my nose was an Italian flying an Atlantique (SB13) out
of Sigopigginella. He tried to ram us with his machine. I won't tell you what my Dad did
to Italians though. Awful really.Remember who won though and you might realise why everybody speaksa da Inglesi onna da flight deck.
Torpedoe

[Cat O' Nine Tails]

Could this be the same Captain who held the entire aircraft load of passengers hostage because one was allegedly smoking? I think the decision to fire him without an investigation is a bit rash, but then again are we seeing the whole picture including his previous history?

:eek:

[Wig Wag]

So who is in command of an Air Europe Italy aircraft?

The Captain or the Purser?

Thought provoking to say the least.

[SunDance]

Good Question Wig Wag!

But the answer is obvious. Not only purers have more to say. Even any FA has more to say, as long as they complain togehter in group of 3-4 against a captain. Concerning the attitude some FA's have, my impression is they know very well that they have the power to remove captains from the company.

So better do what your cabin wants or get some applications filed.

[126.9]

One of the most powerful weapons that black South Africans had against the white government of the appartheid era was; the ability to communicate fluently as a nation, in the languages of the white population. White South Africans on the other hand, generally did not bother learning the languages of their black counterparts. The rest is history...!

An old literacy question asks:
What are you if you speak 3 languages?
Trilingual of course!

What are you if you speak 2 languages?
Bilingual of course!

And what are you if you speak only 1 language?
Well then you must be English or American, of course!!!

NOTE: I could hase written this in Afrikaans, Dutch, (Broken) French or German. I've been living in Europe for less than 3 years.

[cbavoidance]

Dear nobull****,
Quite simply, you are full of it. You seem very sure of your facts, do you have some inside information, do you work for Air Europe or are you simply against ex-pats working in Italy. Why not ask the First Officer, or was he drunk too!!!!!
Read the post, even after the purser was removed from the flight, he still would not listen to the Captain and tried to organize a mutiny by the other cabin staff from the jet-way.
Are you perhaps an ex-cabin attendent yourself, you are obviously not an aircraft commander.
...............

Stop press: Air Europe pusers to be given 4th stripe :eek:

[daidalos]

As a … third party, in this conversation – been Greek and all – I though that it would be useful to give you my two cents :-) It is always difficult to work in a foreign country and be regarded as a friend! When you move there YOU have to conform to the rules of the hosting country. THEY don’t have to change their ways to your likings!! That’s the first rule IMHO. British (Or I should say English) are very reluctant to change their way of doing things, more reluctant then any nationality in the world.
In Greece we have a saying, regarding our relations with Italians, an Italian saying: “Una fatsa Una ratsa” (I hope the spelling is right). So it is easier for me to understand the Italian point of view!
Having said that, in the current discussion, I believe that firing the captain in a foreign country is – at least – bad taste. And trying to confuse the issue with ww2 experiences in this forum is again bad taste.
The issue is how a captain (been the “boss” in the aircraft), can work with his colleagues in harmony, so as the flight will be safe and pleasant. I never had problems with my crew, and I never had to raise my voice to make them execute my commands. Bad manners are always the worst way to finish successfully a flight.
If the purser in fact did what the captain said, he should be punished. If the captain twisted the facts to his likings, then he should be punished.
We don’t have all the facts (and I don’t think that we’ll ever do) so it is impossible to have a verdict, in this forum.

Regards to all.
Safe landings ;)

[Capt PPRuNe]

Well, if some of you can't make a post without resorting to the kind of comments that kids in a school playground are likely to make such as "we won the war, naa na naa naa na" or equally justifying it with a response then I despair!

I am closing this thread before the babies, xenophobes, mentally handicapped etc take it over and just turn it into a quagmire of spit dummies and saliva. Apologies to those of you who manage to discuss the topic without the pathetic comments from the less mature brigade.
:mad: