The employees have no money, then let them eat cake!

[engine out]

Now excuse another rant and rave about the poor conditions that large numbers of pilots go through but was talking to a strange person in a bar and this is a b%&l tearer of a move I just heard about. One southcoast operator recently hit their staff up with a contract (after most staff had already been working for them for several years). This new you beaut contract included a one third reduction in pay and a waiver for workers compensation and super (is that legal?). I would have beleived this as a beer time story but have an inside source who has also read the contract.

The story gets better when one employee was presented with the contract during their CIR debrief, and after refusing to sign was told as a side bar that they had failed their renewal. This the person interpreted as being as a direct result of them not signing a new contract (if true the testing officer should have all testing approvals removed). The person passed their renewal the next day at YSBK. Quite rightly they made a few waves over the treatment they had received and resigned (can't blame him either). The company then bought him off and forced him to sign a confidentially clause as to not disclose the sum paid and that he would not persue other avenues of complaint. I wonder how much money they saved on new contracts compared to the hush money paid out.

This kind of action makes me sick, what is the industry coming too. I know there are good operators out there, I have worked for them and have friends that do to. Why would you work for this kind of company, even if you get paid badly else where at least they don't make you sign a contract giving them your soul and future. Perhaps its the lure of flying aeroplanes painted red and yellow instead of the standard white.

This industry is going to hell in a hand cart!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

This industry is going to hell in a hand cart!

EO;

I'm afraid you may be right. I just rec. yet another CV from a Pilot that offered to work for free.

G.A. in Australia may well end up the same as G.A. in the USA.

Instructors working for just a few dollars, even in the well known schools - and Pilots then paying an operator to get twin time up in charter/freight.

[Mr. Hat]

If student numbers are not capped this sort of practice will only get worse.

The reality is that the employer chooses what to pay and when to pay it and the reason behind this is that there is a massive oversupply.

To be a doctor you have to sit an interview in front of the medical board to earn the right to go to uni to do medicine. Do you see those guys working for free?

No, not a chance in hell.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Good on him/her for having the dignity, pride and b@lls to stand-up to these shameless pimps who are too narrow-minded to have the foresight to avoid taking a good ****e in their own nest!! :mad: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

I'm sure a proffesional organisation will happily put the said individuals skills to good use in no time!:ok:

It all reminds me of a proverb I read the other day along the lines of: "The little reed in the wind-blown waters of the lake, bowed sharply as the storm raged. But well after the storm had passed and was long since forgotten, the reed stood as tall and as proud as ever." :cool:

[scrambler]

We have a union, not much use with only a small amount of pilots as members.

We have an award, about time people (Pilots and Operators)started to remember that. Guess what, you dont even need to be a union member to be covered by the award.

We also need to remember that an enterprise agreement cannot degrade the conditions of the award.

If all operators paid the award the prices would need to be set on that basis.

Yes once worked for a guy who got a consultant in to organize a work place agreement that started with "being no award for charter pilot....." I asked the question "what about the AFAP award" and refused to sign. Guess what it all went to the too hard basket.

Amazing how much better off we would be if all us GA guys could stick together and say "let me run this past the AFPA" rather than "OK i don't mind getting less and working more, yes i will doctor my F&D, ok if he does it so will I etc etc"

Together we can change the culture.

But I will dream on, can't see it happening in my lifetime.

[Pinky the pilot]

scrambler; You are quite correct re your comment on the union situation. AFAP still exists and is still working. However; the apathy of a lot of GA pilots astound me. They grizzle about wages, allowances etc but are not members and when asked to consider joining make comments like 'what's the use!' (sic)
Many years ago a very wise man said something along the lines of,
"If we do not hang together then we will surely hang separately"
Non AFAP members......your call!

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[stick_&_rudder]

Rich fine green,

How do you reply to these grubs that offer to work for nothing?

[DownDraught]

Reverseflowkeroburna, you and your kind are part of the problem!!

Good on him/her for having the dignity, pride and b@lls to stand-up to these shameless pimps who are too narrow-minded to have the foresight to avoid taking a good ****e in their own nest!!

The problem is that this person sold his/her integrity out for money, ie the "confidentially clause", which in doing so stopped action from the authoritories. This is nothing more than greed, pure and simple, and is the reason the this company will get away with it. You have the gaul to say on here well done, when the person here sold the whole industry out for money by the agreement of "here mate we will buy you off if you don't tell anyone". It's people like you and the person who hushed up that make the indrustry what it is. You take the easy way out .....you are traitors to the industry!!!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

S & R:

They used to get a reply that included an analysis of their character - the severity of which was proportional to my mood and/or alcohol intake that evening.

Actually of late, my workload has left me with little time to reply with no more than ".....sorry, no positions at this time...." (cut and paste).

Slack I know but who has an hour a day extra to reply personally to each application when there is an increasing amount of paperwork to do.

S & R: I also have a bit of apathy now about these poor sods as I don't think it will change - in fact I think it will get worse - along the lines of the USA G.A. pay rates (lack of).

Now that it has become the norm for airlines to charge for an endorsement to get a job - this will further entrench new Pilots to think that it's every man/woman for themselves. What do you think?.

I have had more than one newby reply to me along the lines of - I have tried to find work now for months and will do anything for a start.

As long as there are Pilots who are willing to work for free and operators that are willing to take them on - the problem will never be solved. Both goups are equally to blame.

[PCFlyer]

I have had more than one newby reply to me along the lines of - I have tried to find work now for months and will do anything for a start.

I could class myself in the same boat. But "anything" does not include working for free. In fact it's probably down to the fact that i won't work for free, or next to free, that i haven't found myself a position. I call it a position because without renumeration it couldn't be called a job.
Having worked in the "normal" workforce I know my time is just as valuable as the next persons. A qualification is a qualification and takes hard work and cash to attain. Why shouldn't you be rewarded for it?
Unfortunately unless everybody stands together nothing is going to change. ...sif thats ever gonna happen

cheers

ps Rich-Fine-Green, know of any jobs going? ;)

[splatgothebugs]

I think you lot are getting a taste of what has been going on in NZ GA for many years now.

Hopefully your country steps in and solves the problem before it goes to far and you end up like these little islands.

Good luck and hopefully your government will give a sh$t.

splat :ok:

[Malfunction Junction]

This guys no doubt took the money as there would have been very few options available to him. Only problem is the confidentiality clause; it has no bearing or substance if it has been designed to 'cover up' some illegal activity. Having staff sign away their rights to superannuation and workcover is illegal and therefore the confidentiality clause too is illegal.
Suggest some legal boffin who regularly reads/contributes to these pages might like to touch base with the employee and start some serious follow-up action on their behalf.:ok: No wonder this industry has such a bad name with this type of stuff STILL happening:mad:
Maybe when the AUSAR contract comes up for renewal, they might like to look long and hard at the workplace and employment arrangements of this grubby little operation.:ugh:

[engine out]

The more I think about it the more I think this kind of behaviour by operators and would be employees is becoming the norm. It's become a vicious circle, student learns to fly at a school that treats thier instructors like **** so guesses this is what happens and that you MUST go through it. By the time they finish their CPL they beleive that they must work for nothing or for ****** all to get employed, then then would be employer sais fantastic less money going out more coming in. As these pilots go through the industry they start out saying if I was running this company or had my own business things would be differen't, but by the time they get there they have come up with a mentallity well I had to do the hard yards then so should you. And here we are at the beggining again.

I have sat and had conversations with people who bitch and whinge about people doing things for free or ****** all then watched them turn around and offer to do it for next to nothing themselves just to get the flying. Operators know we love what we do which is why they always have us buy the balls. One day I would love to compile a list and publish it with all those cheapskate operators and pilots who will constantly still your work for nothing, however for legal reasons this will never be done (alas).

The union complains but I had been an Instructor/Charter pilot for 5 years before I had every heard of them! Perhaps getting out and about there more would get them more members (not that i am pro-union either).

To all the good operators who treat their pilots well and reward them with good pay and conitions I say good on you. To people like the would be criminals at the other companies I reckon at some stage there will be a bloody big day of reckoning where the oppressed masses will rise, and with the media picking up the story it will not be pretty. Now where's my red revolutionary cap.

[grrowler]

scrambler,

Are we (ga pilots) all covered by the award? From my understanding of it, I would agree that we are, however my story below makes me question that.

and pinky,

without trying to sound too apathetic...

Firstly, I'm all for having a united front through a union. However, can you give me some recent examples of GA pilots receiving their just remuneration after AFAP became involved? I'm not trying to be a smart@rse, I'm genuinely interested as I haven't heard of any.

I happen to know of two separate instances where union members have asked AFAP to act for them, AFAP have written a letter of demand to the employer (pay up or else blah blah), and the employer has ignored the letter, hoping nothing further would happen. Nothing did.... AFAP either didn't bother following it up, or their threats had no substance. That instills no confidence in me.

To me the above seems like a very straight forward, black and white legal action (assuming we are all covered by the award). Why can't AFAP even enforce the law, let alone negotiate above award agreements?

I'm now (just) in a situation where I can afford to join AFAP (ironic in itself), what am I going to get for my 1% + GST?

[Bendo]

THE AFAP NEED TO HELP THEMSELVES. I agree that there is little or no publicity or promotion of the AFAP's activities, wins and losses.

That said, of all of us reading this now how many are menbers of the AFAP? How many of us have even ASKED? I'll start off - no I am not a member but I have rung their office and a membership pack is in the mail to me now. I'm joining as soon as I get it.

Very few pilots come from "blue collar" backgrounds and I'd bet London to a brick that most of us think like engine out in saying "I'm not pro-union either". Many of us in our late 20's and early 30's remember the union activism of the early 1980's and we still have negative connotations with Union politics. But a Union doesn't have to be all red-ragging trotsky-ites; the AFAP is a professional association as well as protecting your rights.

I have just ended a 2 1/2 year exile from Aviation, spent in underground Coal mining. I had been flying Chieftains (Chief Pilot, Science degree, ATPLs) for $650 pw (gross) plus CIR renewals. I moved to an underground mining job (zero experience, zero qualifications, zero interest, but I can lift hevvy fings) and membership of the CFMEU on $1,150 per week (gross). THAT is the benefit of sticking together. In the 1970s these guys were paid the equivalent of $400 pw.

If you are a member of the union you have some say in how it operates and behaves - it doesn't have to be another CFMEU, BLF or Wharfies union.

Similarly, membership of the union doesn't mean that you can't/won't work or that you want to make unreasonable demands on your employer. HE might justify your $250pw and no super as "just business". YOU can justify your right to a fair wage and your legal entitlements as "just business" too.

Finally, how can the union campaign effectively if all of us in GA just whinge, complain and bitch and follow it up with "but I don't believe in unions."

Plenty of other posters on these forums have said it:

IF YOU WANT A CAREER, AND YOU BELIEVE IN THE INDUSTRY, STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS.

www.afap.org.au
(03) 9699 4200
We must all start to look out for each other. START TODAY.

[RENURPP]

I have approached the AFAP firstly by phone to discuss a legal issue and followed up with several letters.
Six months down the track the only correspondence I receive from the AFAP is a bill.

Not likely I will bother paying unless I receive a response. After all thats why I joined to start with.

Can not see theo point in being a member personally.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Contract what contract?

In all the years I spent in NZ I was never even offered a contract, better or worse :(

Splat is right, you Aussies have got it all to come, by comparison to the sh!t pit that is kiwi GA

Working for free / minimum wage / pay for hours flown only is the accepted norm over there ... and if you don't wanna work for $20 a week there's 10 other guys that will :yuk:

Hey splat mate, I gotta tell you though, only been in the UK for 6 months and I got recommended for my command upgrade up here this week, $NZ120grand for a poxy 19 seat t/prop captain here I come ... oh yeah and D.M. is into Easyjet now and that's another big pay rise for him ...

I'll see all you boys again in 10 years time when me and DM are squillionaires that own most of Tauranga, and I come back and buy you-know-where and sack you-know-who just because I feel like it :ok:

Do I miss New Zealand? About as much as a plate of ham sandwiches at a Bar Mitzvah :ok:

[I Fly]

I am a member of the AFAP for more than 25 years. On 3 occasions I needed their help. I got the same result as mentioned by grrowler. They write letters but they can't / won't enforce anything. It makes me wonder why I persist.

[U2]

What an interesting topic! Keep it going.

I too have felt the sharp end of the arseholism circulating in the industry. As a member of the AFAP I believe that all member's should do the right thing and assert their rights, as should the Federation meet it's obligations.
I am having a hard time getting a job because of the unreasonable actions of my previous employer. The good thing is that I will get what I am entitled too and be rejected by the employer's that are also unreasonable.

What comes around, keeps going around!

U2

[wouldulikefrieswiththat]

this kind of thing doesn't help ...

Employment Wanted (http://www.aviationtrader.com.au/cgi-bin/view.cgi?function=display&ad=04mar40.pdf)

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Jeez - $10K for work!.

That is a prime example of why the industry is in the state it is. That is also why there will not be any solidarity among Pilots and why the AFAP is a failure despite good intentions.

I hope that a few of Kelly's newby peers invest in an SMS to the mobile number that he published or to the email that he published to ask him to withdraw his offer or change his ad in the next trader to 'Reward - opportunity for a company to aquire a hard working Pilot for a fair days pay'.

[Northern Chique]

IMHO

the majority of pilots know that their "employer" by direct employment, voluntary or contract is or isnt doing the right thing by them or their clients. Most pilots have a basic overveiw of their rights and obligations, but not a thorough understanding.

The vast majority of GA pilots can be summed up as the following -

1 Broke... living below the poverty line is detrimental to paying optional fees.
2 Scared of repercussions resulting from asking the "wrong questions" let alone rock the boat over an answer. This also includes the lack of foresight into what to do what it all turns bad.
3 Dont have a clue who to contact and under what circumstances.
4 Wont study the "irrelevant stuff" as time contraints, survival and financial contraints do not generally allow for such extra curricular study. (besides, it aint no bedtime story but gawd its enough to put a person to sleep!)
5 Still too broke to ring someone or consult with legal resources after or during a less than desirable event, incident, accident or dismissal.
6 Still too scared to wear the responsiblity for owning up as it may cause repercussions with the next possible job if a dismissal or injury occur.
7 There a a few who are more interested in stabbing their fellow pals in the back rather than help....
8 Another group who make it through GA thinking along the "Im a good enough pilot to hadle this s@$tbox, so nothing is gonna happen and we havent had CASA here for ages"... lines and similar. Bad news is, an accumulation of factors potentially needs less to go wrong before it results in something nasty.

Sure, a team effort is required to enure better conditions, and a union is only as good as its membership. Legal practice and success during a case is based on substantiatable fact. Anything else is heresay. If an event occurs, it is more than likely a result of a number of factors. A combination that has a trail that each contributing aspect leaves. And oddly enough, its usually on paper. One highly recommended task is to write a dirary each day. A dirary, like a logbook, is a legal document under the right circumstances. Keep company memos, including those that threaten company pilots and research requirements. For smaller operations where the paper trail is less than defined, a diary is a must, and honesty even more so.

A liar bearing a grudge without fact makes a very poor witness indeed. Integrity is so important if you want to make a change to something. Be it your own backyard, your lifestyle or your workplace. Letters with irrelevant, unsubtantiated claims often go nowhere, good letters need following up the chain for redefinition or a result. Often its a couple of simple factors that need addressing and a successful claim is then made.

Been through that mill, bruised but smiling..... and bruises heal.

[redsnail]

I am a member of the AFAP. They did the right thing when I needed them. I'm happy with their performance.
I am still a member of AFAP and now a member of BALPA too.

[engine out]

Now I question I have reguarding all this is the paying of employees to shut up and take no further action, is this common around the industry? I have now heard of several pilots being given a goodbye cash incentive providing they fanish like a fart into the night. These kind of payment seem to be given when said employee obviously has something to hide (be it from authorities or press). Is such a payment an admission of guilt (would be on current affair) or just purely to get rid of any possible trouble, and if so wouldn't have been doing the right thing in the first place the cheaper option. I'm not sure that paying the person to go away is the right thing , but I also think the person accepting the money is doing the industry no favours (though may aid themselves- again looking after number one!).

[cunningham]

I was also a member around 10 years ago. I had a serious issue with an employer and contacted them for assistance. On more than one occasion I got the "we will get back to you" Of course they never did. The membership fee is rather high when all you get is a diary.

p*ss poor

[George.Handel]

A recently now closed thread about an NT employer did bring out an important issue 1st. Seen in the Monarch, Seaview and more recently in the 2001 Lake Evella crash, pilot employment conditions are a critical component of a safe infrastructure.

(Re-posting from closed "You have done well HA" thread.)
Article from an old copy of the ANU Reporter (the uni rag)... by Shelly Simonds on deregulation and referring to studies done by ANU Prof. John Hopkins, Dec '97 (ah the good ol' days). "The problems revealed in the Monarch and Seaview air disasters still persist and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority doesn't seem to be able to deal with them," said Prof Hopkins.

The deregulation of the labour market for pilots is one major problem, he said. After a series of unsuccessful strikes, the number of salaried pilots has dropped and an increasing number are working as casuals for small operators.

"Casualisation makes it hard for pilots because if they're worried about safety and refuse to fly a plane, they won't get paid," said Prof Hopkins.
Another result of the deregulated employment market for pilots was increased competition for piloting experience. Pilots desperate to build up hours in the air, were willing to serve as copilots for Monarch without pay, a Senate inquiry into the Monarch crash was told.

"The chaotic nature of the deregulated labour market for pilots was a contributing factor to the Monarch crash," said Prof Hopkins.Perhaps its time the regulatory bodies looked more closely at pay and employment conditions (leave, living conditions, sick leave, etc) as part of conditions for AOC's.

[DownDraught]

For those who want another solution if they believe the AFAP just don't cut it, apparently the TWU will now support pilots, anyway here is a more onformative thread.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121381

[Ralph the Bong]

Mates (commrades!), if you are NOT a member of the union, you are mad. Being a member of the union entitles you to representation and assistance if you are involved in an accident or incident. This alone should be sufficeint incentive to join. Engine out's suggestion of the list of pirate employers is not a bad one, however I suggest the converse view. That is, a list of the DECENT employers who DO provide proper conditions. The only problem is, I cant think of any. I heard of a certain operator who pays the award(which is commendable, but by no means unique), but uses a CASA approved(CAO 48 exemption) fatigue management system that results pilots putting in 50-60 hours a week, cleaning aircraft and other odd jobs after flying. This equates to a wage of around $13 per hour. As George Handle says, this indicates that the regulator is complicit in the degradation of industry conditions.

As an aside, a mate from way back once got a job in FNQ flying a light twin to the resort islands. On arriving from Melbourne to start work, he was shown to his living accomadation. This was a room at the back of the hanger with a bed, desk, chair, kettle and toaster oven. The toilet and shower were at the other end of the hanger. His boss told him that as things were slow, that he could only pay him for flying time, at $30 p.h. On his first week, he flew 32 hours; wow, $960! His boss then told him that as things had "picked up" he could now be put on full-time and he was given $375. Next payday, the boss 'didn't have his cheque book with him', but gave him $100 to tide him over. Next week, the boss was 'out of town'. A charter had been arranged to fly some Cocky around for 3 days. My mate did this and at the end of the charter was given the $2500 fee in cash. He flew back to his base, arriving at about 9pm, packed his bags and drove back to Melbourne, pocketing the $2500 as 'undelivered salary' for 3 1/2 weeks work. :p

Someone above spoke of keeping a dairy; a bloody good idea. Did you know that many Airline Captains keep a general dairy of the days flying just in case they get a call from the Chief 4 days later to explain a seemingly trival event, such as a late departure? I spent some time in GA post Ansett and keeped a dairy of my flying with a particular company. The owner/cp not only flouted the law but also had some sort of behavioural problem that indicated that he was medcally unsuitable to engage in flight operations. In the end, I resigned and explained quite clearly the reasons why I was leaving, being that due to his behaviour, I could not be party to this man occupying a control seat during operations. I fully expected to be assulted ( as he had treatened me on the previous day) or, at best sworn at. Instead he burst into tears and explained that his wife had told him that he had a problem and should get help. I submitted a CAIR report about this suggesting that the director of aviation medicine investigate. This didn't happen. Instead, some inspector interveiwed him and identified me as the source of the complaint. This led to a my-word-against-his situation and no action was taken. However, if this company is ever involved in an accident, I still have my diary. And I would be quite prepared to stand as a witness and tell all.

[grrowler]

All the stories sound very familiar, but what can we do about it?

So is the GA award legally meant to cover all GA pilots and employers (that's how I read it), or only respondents to it?

If the former is the case, why can't AFAP enforce it?

I've heard it argued convincingly both ways, however no one can provide references.

[U2]

Did everyone get to see on the evening news a few nights back about the crack strike by truckies in (I think) Sydney.

I say good on them, these guys have working conditions similar; if not worse then ours (G.A pilots). I was not impressed by the comments from the minister who commented or the (TWU??) rep. It's as though they didn't care about the truckies issues.

There plight is no different then ours. They are a group who's alliance is connected by telephone conversations and ...internet.

Unlike say nursing or teachers, the pilots and truckies don't have strong union membership or a tough union. It is unlikely to change.

I would be interested in any examples where other industries (like ours) have been able to keep unionism active rather than passive.

U2

[Parablues]

U2, you are a gem! If we all stood up against these bastards (and bitches!) then we might actually get somewhere... I DO know that a lot of owners and CASA read this site and I DO know that I have angered and hurt a lot of fragile egos out there on both sides of the fence. Anything that I have written is the truth and nothing but the truth - something that is sadly lacking in GA today. I am so angered and frustrated by seeing so many good people in aviation (intelligent, talented but fiercely individualistic) slide down a road of despair and apathy. At the Uni. we see parents mortgaging their homes to put their sons and daughters through only to be stuck in some hell-hole somewhere and PAYING to work there!!! Outbloodyrageous!!!! My message to you people at CASA is, START DOING YOUR JOBS and stop worrying about what people are saying about you... by you being upset, means that you are guilty and have something to hide. I can give you a number for anger management courses, Dale, I know that you are too old to change those wonderful "people skills" of yours but at least maybe you could see in some small way how you really appear to the world. It is not a nice picture, believe me... I knew your father and mother, so I can certainly understand to a certain extent why you are who you are... very sad....

[Gotmygearup]

The Chamber of Commerce NT would like to inform you that the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has made an application for the above awards to be made common rule in the Northern Territory. The application will be heard in the Australian Industrial Relations Commission on 24 March 2004 at 12.30pm.For some employers that won't make much difference, for others such as NAC and AF, it means 5-6+ thousand dollars each pilot per annum just in base wage increases. At 650 hours a year, for say 20 employees, that’s an extra $130,000 per year... or 110,000 litres of AVGAS!

Plus the added costs of paying based on duty time rather than MR, and minimum 2 hrs pay for calling a pilot into work. And empoyers that opt for a salary based line pilots (as they should) add the cost of uniform allowances, ngt/ifr allowances, sick/holiday leave and super'.

Can anyone suggest action pilots in the NT can take to assist the AFAPs success (other than the obvious - become members).

[SawThe Light]

Guys, it's really simple. You alone make a decision to work in this industry for what you think you are worth. You can't blame anyone other than yourselves if your salary is too low. You think you are worth only $100 per week then accept it and get on with it. However, if you accept to work for sh*t wages, don't come back to the rest of us and complain about the pay.

Some sections of the the industry thrive on this sort of subsidy and this in turn leads to the proliferation of the outfits that expect you to work for peanuts. It's up to you and your mates. No-one is forcing you to work for sh*t wages, you choose to do it yourselves. If it's not you accepting sh*t, then it's your mates, or your "colleagues".

The sensible folks are those like the guy who went and worked in an underground mine. He at least was working for what he figured he was worth.

Don't prostitute yourselves, or this industry. If you can't get what you think you are worth, go find something else. Do't fool yourselves into thinking that a union will be the magic bullet. You've got to do it yourselves.

[Dr. Rudi]

I have just joined the AFAP after reading this post by nungry
here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119932)

I have heard comments, both good and bad. However who else is going to bat for GA? It s them or no one.

I look forward to the IRC decision for the GA award to become Common Rule in the NT. Hopefully this will weed out the shonks due to wage costs and we may one day have a reasonable industry.

The GA award is the MINIMUM wage.

[justathought]

As a charter pilot in the NT I think the single biggest thing we could do to improve safety and stop accidents and incidents is to have the award enforced.
Pilots at my company are so tired and stressed out that it is little wonder things don't always go the way the boss wants. It makes it that much harder to remember to put the gear down when you are stressing about the crazy high-tension work environment you are part of, the crazy renumeration you get and the lack of lifestyle that that brings about.
Precious little thanx ever comes you way either, strangely enough I think that would make a difference too.
go the 23rd.

[Bendo]

It would be great to get a response from the AFAP on some of the gripes thrown about here.
Where are the AFAP going?
Who are they taking on?
What issues in Industrial Law are going to affect us?

Other Unions I know have had a very effective information campaign for members.

[Malfunction Junction]

It would indeed be interesting to hear what the AFAP has to say about the post that started this thread. Let's just assume that everything reported initially is correct about the original contract, being failed an IFR renewal for failing to sign said contract and then being paid off to shut-up! What would the AFAP do or what remedies are available to them in this particular case?:confused:
Come on chaps; let's hear from you guys directly!:ok:

[Mickster]

I am a member of the AFAP. Presently, I am in the process of making a claim for unpaid wages, but because this employment commenced before I became a member, the AFAP are unable to assist in a worthwhile way.

So be aware. Don't join for what's happened in the past, join for what can be done in the future. Be aware of the Award and make sure your colleagues are aware of it also.

In a previous company, I, along with another pilot, requested to the Chief Pilot, that the minimum entitlements and allowances be paid and was met with a "if you keep it under your hat then we'll (the company) give you the entitlements". BTW the Chief Pilot was (and still is) a current member of the AFAP! I declined that generous offer and was soon looking for another job. The good thing is that now all the pilots employed within that company are getting what they are entitled to. Altruistic? Not really...I didn't expect to be fired...oh sorry, "made redundant". Although they hired another pilot to replace me. :hmm: :mad:

It's funny when you try explaining the Award to a pilot who is not aware of it. Total surprise!

Regarding record keeping...detail everything. Photocopy your F & D times that you submit. One of the reasons my claim is so strong is because I have meticulous records. Previous employer is trying to convince the Dept of Workplace Relations that they didn't call me in and that I wasn't at work on many days that I claim the opposite. The unfortunate thing for him is that I had signed the MR proving that I was there. For the operators out there...no I didn't sneak in to work, daily the a/c, then slink off home. I lived 30 min from the airport. I I didn't go in unless I was asked to.

For those pilots who believe that they are not covered by the Award. From the Award...

5.1 This award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator

5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.

6 The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Apppendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.

It's pretty simple to interpret. So even if your operator is not a signatory to the award, then they must still pay the Award, as a minimum, if you are engaged in operations in 5.2 or are a member of AFAP (or both).

Also:
9 This award will be exhibited by each employer on their premises in a place accessible to all employees

How often does this happen? :rolleyes:

A good operator has this incorporated into their Operations Manual. Maybe CASA could play a part by making sure that it is incorporated into the Ops Manual? Mind you, many operators have "good relations" with their local CASA officers.

Have some guts guys...the Award is not an "option' for operators to decide which parts, if any, they will accomodate.

The good operators find it impossible to compete with the shonky ones. So the more we encourage this behavior, by acccepting it, the fewer good operators we will find.

[grrowler]

Thanks Mickster, as I thought.

Now my second question, why can't AFAP enforce the award, written in legal black and white?

[Lawrie Cox]

I have been asked to respond to a number of points raised. Can I begin by saying we are a union which obliges a member to play a part not dictated form the top down. It is very easy to sit back and complain when things don’t go your way. This may come as a surprise to some but we don’t claim to be perfect on the contrary not everything will be resolved to an individuals’ satisfaction.
I believe that we spend time explaining the situation fully to the member involved as to why a decision went the way it did. If as has been put some did not get an explanation I more than happy to research it and respond to them.

The AFAP provides cover all commercial pilots with the exception of QF Mainline and Domestic which fall under the AIPA (former overseas branch of AFAP who split away in 1980). Both organisations currently work under AUS ALPA for our relations with the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA). Our structure is made up of elected pilots in each state or territory. Our head office is based in Melbourne and has four industrial staff plus part time technical and full time administration staff.

The body was originally called AAPA in 1947 and for industrial reasons at the time formed AFAP in 1959. This worked as an unregistered organisation until the Flight Crew Officers Industrial Tribunal (FCOIT) was formed around 1970 when we were a ‘declared body’. In 1986 both AFAP and AIPA became fully registered under the then Concilation and Arbitration Act. In 1988 the Act became the Industrial Relations Act 1988 and the FCOIT was abolished. Part of our strength was the ability to represent our core members in Airlines but equally provide coverage back in General Aviation. Post the 1989 dispute our ability to do so was severely limited by resources. We still continued to represent our members where needed. Our previous efforts of going out and auditing a company to see if they were paying the Award was stopped due to lack of resources. The reason we conducted such audits was to keep the operators honest and to provide education to the future group of airline pilots in the country. We had good working relationships with the General Aviation Association (GAA) who you could call on to point out to a member of theirs who were not complying with the Award, sadly the GAA no longer exists.
As for the case at the start of this thread it would be very easy for me to say that legally what is alleged is an offence under the Act however without the full detail I could not give a specific answer. It is unfortunate that there are numerous pilots who have taken a similar sought of action due to being identified as a trouble maker. No union can force someone to enforce an Award if they choose not to. It is unfortunate that the industry is full of such examples and despite efforts over the years to educate it is not until someone is established in a reasonable position that they then reminisce as to how it should have been. As to the future our membership has grown significantly a lot due to peer influence we are making our presence felt more in the industry and there will always be our share of knockers. Ultimately it is up to you as a pilot to get in help or sit back and watch. What is to be?

In the Northern Territory and Victoria we are presently applying for ‘Common Rule’ Awards so as to ensure equal coverage, in NAS we are still putting views to the appropriate authorities about our concerns, we are still pursuing a number of individual cases in the Industrial Relations Commission. The Federation is proudly independent of outside influences and will remain so but it is the membership that will determine the future.
I cannot answer everything in the thread but happy to answer an email.
Lawrie Cox Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots
Level 6, 132 Albert Road
South Melbourne Vic 3205
Ph (03) 9699 4200 Fx (03) 9699 8199
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au

[Air Ace]

Lawrie

How about you post a copy on PPRuNe of that Ambit Claim you had a decade or so ago? :p

I've lost the last one you served on me some years ago, would love another copy and need a laugh. :ok:

Ace

[MARZ]

Parablues- check your PM's please
-cheers

[Bendo]

Thank you for coming on and having a go, Mr Cox.

I am afraid I don't know much about industrial relations or law and I suspect that many other readers on this forum are in the same boat.

1/. Can you confirm that the GA award as provided on the AFAP website is, in fact, applicable to all GA pilots whether or not members of the union?

And:
2/. Can you also confirm for us that "workplace agreements" or other deals offered by employers MUST be ratified and pass a 'no disadvantage' test?

MICKSTER

you said:

"because this employment commenced before I became a member, the AFAP are unable to assist in a worthwhile way."

You then went on to quote that the award is applicable to all persons working in the industry and not only those party to the negotiation of the award.

Why would the AFAP then not be able to help?
Is it a matter of "You weren't a member then, so we won't help you now?":yuk:

[Lawrie Cox]

1 The GA Award is applicable to all named parties and successors companies. This is the reason the respondents list is so long. A pilot is eligible to be paid all salary and conditions whether a member or not of the AFAP. You can go to Workplace Relations Department (Federal) to chase underpayments or hire your own solictor to chase entitlements or be a member of the AFAP.

2 For an Australian Worplace Agreement (AWA) to legal it needs to be approved by the office of the Employee Advocate. Whilst the Act states it must not be lower than aggreagte of entitlements under the relevant Award our experience has shown that they have approved lower but the individual needs to force the issue or authorise someone like AFAP to do so.

In relation to Mickster comment
Our organisation did undertake claims in the past for people who were not members at the time only to see them dissappear at the first opportunity after recovering the payments. Accordingly we now enforce the policy that if you were not a member at the time we will assist in your preparation but not the enforcement of a claim.
The major factor being we operate on our members paying fees we cannot justify spending that income on those who only seek a short coverage with no long term interest in the industry.

In relation to Ace comment
More than happy to provide a copy of the log that is used for creation of the AMBIT in the general awards. As was explained to those operators who so kindly rang and abused our office staff at the time there is a legal process under the workplace relations act 1986. I recommend you read it sometime then make an educated comment.

Lawrie Cox
Manager Industrial Relations AFAP
[email protected] or [email protected] or www.afap.org.au

[I Fly]

To quote Lawrie Cox "No union can force someone to enforce an Award if they choose not to." Therein lies the problem. It's like p*****g in a wetsuit. It gives you a warm feeling but nobody takes any notice. Somehow the AFAP need to get a set of (new?) teeth.

[Mickster]

Bendo

Could I just clarify... What I meant was that the AFAP couldn't represent me in court etc, as I was not a member at the time I was employed by the company, but that they do offer any other assistance eg, precedents and other info your legal team may require. So the sooner you join, particularly for the fresh commercial guys, then AFAP can start to get stuck into the shonky operators on your behalf.

The cost is 1% of your income (we all spend more on grog than that) and if your casual, give the guys at AFAP a call and they will help you out as best they can. Even if you are temporarily out of aviation work there is dirt cheap rate to keep you current.

The AFAP membership (financial members) would have voted on this decision to not spend money on legal cases unless the pilot was finacial at the time of employment. I agree with the decision and can see why they enforce it, although it's frustrating as you generally don't hear about the AFAP until you've had or are having problems. This is why the fresh Commercial guys & gals need to be made aware of the AFAP before they get out into the "shafting zone".

It's a shame so many pilots have jumped in to use the AFAP system and left when they no longer felt that it was beneficial to them even though they were still employed in the industry.

I FLY

I'm afraid your beef is aimed at the wrong organisation. I would be pointing at the government (perhaps even CASA?) who cannot or won't even enforce the award. In my case, a Breach Notice had been issued to the company for numerous breaches of the Award by the Department of Workplace Relations, but the company just ignores it. Even the government has no teeth. The various departments are disinterested as are the Ministers/Opposition etc (believe me I tried, but not enough votes to worry about) so the only person who can take any action is YOU and your solicitor. Unless of course you are a member of AFAP!

The shonky companies rely on all this chain of events in the hope that you will give up. There are numerous cases that are won, but they are not widely discussed. I believe there are two reasons for this.

1. The company does not wish this to become known about as every pilot for the last 6 years (that is the time limit from which you commence employment with the company to when you must have made a claim against them) that has been employed by the company can make a claim. Big dollars!!!

2. The pilot does not wish it to become well known as this could reflect unfavourably with the next employer.

In my experience, number 2 is a load of dogs bollocks! The good companies are happy that you do this as with each claim, the dodgy company gets closer to folding.

And for all those people who cry about the lost jobs when the company goes under...the company shouldn't have been operating in the first place if it couldn't afford it's most important resource, the pilot. Where remote areas need the service, the reputable companies will charge an appropriate amount for the service to cover ALL costs and make a profit.

[tealady]

Maybe if you're not getting paid what you should the reason just might be that if you're an Instructor, you are one of those that stands in front of the booking sheets all day trying to "will" bookings to appear! We have had 2 new Instructors start in the past month, one only wanted to work 2 days a week and didn't want to fly more than four hrs a day (he flew 30 hrs over 5 days, and he just doesn't want to fly that much! - he has now decided to head west and he goes with our best wishes) and the other has just given 4 weeks notice (is still going to stay on as a casual and will still fly at least 15 hours a week) as he wants to be paid the award but wants to be able to just roll up and fly when he feels like it. I have spoken to both of these staff about superannuation - they had never heard of it and didn't know if their previous employers paid it or not - guess it hasn't been paid as all the rest of us get twice yearly reports of our account status and also at the end of the fortnight when we get paid, the amount paid into our super fund is detailed. All pilots must be in a super fund, the industry one is particularly good in that it provides death cover insurance of around $55,000 for under 25's - especially important if mum and dad have mortgaged their house for thre flying training. I wish we could charge $18,000 for an Instructor Rating and then get 100 hrs of instructing supplied for free - does this reduce the hourly learn to fly costs? We charge $10,000 with the possibility of up to 100 hrs instructing work (fully paid) if the student meets our requirements.

[tealady]

Parablues, you should go back to that coy you worked for and get the super you are owed - you owe it to your dependants to do so. Glad you are getting what you are worth now. Best of luck for the fiture! (Hope the new boss is doing all the right stuff) The schools won't get away with not paying the super anymore - if you send the super off one day late now, you get fined by the super fund guarantee people as well as still paying the super. You need to contact the superannuation guarantee fund people and let them know what has happened to you and see if they can recommend a course of action for you, $8/hr for a Grade III is criminal, let alone for a more qualified Instructr. My husband was paid $10/hr back in 1981 when he started Instructing at Berwick!

[speedbird23]

There are ways around this. No matter what your employer says, has you sign or any contract entered into, if it is below what the federal award states, it is illegal and the employer has no recorse.
However the real problem is the amount we are paid an how that is calculated.
No other industry pays its employees only when they are working. You go to work clock on and get paid until you clock off. This is regardless ot the amount of work you do. This is why the public service is so inept.
So pilots should be paid from the time they start work until finish, i.e DUTY TIME. More pilot max out on duty then they do flight time. This will then see employers implement proper rostering to ensure THEY DON`T GET RIPPED OFF by pilots just hanging around wasting time. Employers wont employ excessive amounts of pilots and have them undertaking menial task just to past time and squeeze them for everything they can. Pilots who do the lion share of flying will still get that flying and hence get more duty time. Pilots who stay employed in companies just waiting for something better will get rostered less and more likely leave cause they can`t pay the bills. Most importantly it will give pilots the ability to work a second job if need be as they will know when they are required to work and when they are not. As for unions, well, they are only in it cause they can get something out of it.

[Parablues]

Great idea there tealady... I have gotten onto them already and I will keep you posted... Glad to hear that your Melbourne schools have more ethics than SA - keep up the great work...!

[tealady]

Parablues, to assist you in your calculations, you must be paid super each time you earn more than $400 per month from an employer. For the current FY, they must pay at least 9% of your gross wage into the fund, for 2002/2003 it was 8%, 2001/2002 it was 7%, 2001/2002 it was 6% and prior to that for the years (if I remember right) it was 5%. Also, if your wife/partner isn't working you can pay up to $3000 p.a. into a super fund for hear and you claim the deduction -speak to an accountant about that one. When you are full time as a pilot you also are entitled to 6 weeks leave per year but you only get leave loading for 4 weeks as the other 2 weeks are to make up for working weekends and public holidays and you are entitled to the leave pro rata if you leave the company after working for 12 months. Make sure you state on your employment tax declaration whether you are full time, casual or part time. This should lay down the parameters of your pay rate and conditions from the word go and you shouldn't go wrong. (If you do get any more $'s from this info - you owe me a peppermint magnum with a cuppa!

[GA Driver]

Hmmmmm, a considerable time ago I went from Casual earning <400 month to full time, but never had to resign an employment dec. Wonder where it's going to leave MY super situation!

By the way, speaking to a few friends who haven't been paid super, they rang and spoke to the tax office to be told "we have a 3 year backlog of unpaid super" But the good news is once a complaint about a company was made, the whole comapany was investigated not just an individual.

[tealady]

GA Driver, doesn't matter to the super requirements whether you signed a new eployment dec or not -as soon as you are earning over that $400 a month - you are owed super and it is payable on whatever basis you are employed in this industry. It is poosible that if you operate as a "contractor" and have your own ABN, then YOU will be liable for payment of the super - so make sure you tack that 9% on to your invoice.

[bigflyingrob]

Its all industries I am afraid. The normal practice is to ask the interviewee what they expect to get paid and then look amazed! They go on a course for this I think. Its the same one that teaches them to say "You'll just have to " and leggit and " We've got to have it now!"
There is a theory that managers have their brains, balls and backbones removed when they go for their suit fitting.

[Bendo]

"The Unions are just in it for themselves"

Could you justify this statement please?

What possible benefit could an industrial organisation derive from hanging around bludging off member's dues?

"Plois Ixploin" as the Oxleymoron says

[DualRated]

Good Luck getting industry members too stick together when members of same companies can't even stick together

[locusthunter]

Good post capt marvellous!

Does this mean that if a company "changes name" (i.e. ceases to trade and opens as another company) then they are no longer bound by the award since they are no longer on Appendix A?

:ugh:

[grrowler]

Captain M,

Heading of 5. in the award "WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS"? I'm listed in 5.2, therefore I am covered by the award.

Heading 6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?" also refers to me (through 5.2), so I am also bound by the award.

I am bound and covered by this award, yet my employer isn't in Appendix A (would you be able to post a link to this appendix?), so they don't have to pay it? Does this match your understanding of the award? Does this make sense? Laurie Cox?

Sounds like award would be more useful as lav paper! And in turn makes AFAP as useful as t!ts on a bull.

[Mickster]

Captain M

As Growler implied, How can the Award be binding on a Pilot and not the operator they are employed by? How does this work?

Isn't the intention of the Award to stop pilots getting underpaid/overworked and protect the employer from pilots who may leave them in the lurch without the proper notification. If this is the case, why do employers get the option of being a signatory, but the pilot doesn't?

After re-reading my post, although it isn't clear, I intended my reference to "CASA?" to be in relation to the enforcement of flight and duty times. Everyone knows that Casuals never put down their actual Tour of Duty because if they did then they would be near their limits the whole time and wouldn't be available for all flights. Remember, to the casual no fly=no pay!

The employers abuse this unashamedly, by telling the employee to come and do some "stuff" around the office/hangar and something just might come up. Show me your keen and I MAY just dish out a flight for you. In reality, the operator has almost an endless supply of free labour.

[swh]

grrowler,

You could do yourself and everyone else a favour and provide the AFAP with the details of the last few companies you have worked for that are not listed in the award. From memory your last 3-4 operators are not listed in the award.

The AFAP will then include these operators in the next round of the award.

To quote Para 6 "The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.", even if you are bound by 5.2, if your employer is not named in the appendix, they are not bound.

Also individual companies may decide to have a certified workplace agreement under section 170LS of the workplace relations act.


To quote Lawrie Cox in this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113290&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) If you have an operator in mind I suggest you provide the following to us:
Full Name of Company;
Trading Name if different;
Full address (not PO Box)
Type of AOC
Aircraft flown
Operation (GA - Fixed or Rotary, Aerial Ag, Regional Airline, etc.)
Please send to the AFAP
[email protected]
Lawrie Cox Industrial Officer AFAP

[grrowler]

When's the next round of the awards?? And what does "including these operators" in it mean (from a practical pov)?

Also, referring back to the award swh, could you please explain the difference between being covered by the award, and being bound by it?

[George.Handel]

For those in the NT and ACT, the who's who of who it applies to is now redundant.

Parrallel pprune thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=126042)

[grrowler]

captain m,

thanks for the answers, clears it up for me.

Ok, another (actual)scenario for you... say an employer is in App A, and yet didn't/ doesn't pay the correct award. Why would AFAP still not be able to enforce it? :suspect:

[kookabat]

Anyone know what if anything has happened regards the original issue posted by engineout?