machine gun found

[gramps]

Hello,

I have found a Browning .50 Cal machine gun off a WWII aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait (between the Northern tip of Australia and PNG).
I am interested in finding out what type of aircraft it is. Here is what I know of it :

Twin engine mid wing mounted three bladed prop.
No mid mounted turret.
Two crew seat.
Tail was missing however it has a single empenage (ie. not a lightning).
Two (or more) Browning .50 cals mounted in nose.

I am assuming it was American however cannot discount it being an Aussie A/C (I am unsure as to what they were armed with but wouldn't be surprised if it was Brownings).

Any help would be appreciate thanks,

Gramps

P.S. I have the serial number of the gun, does anyone know of a way I can find the aircraft type/history from this? I am not sure if the wreck has previously been reported or not.

[av8boy]

1. What did the nose look like? Solid or glazed?
2. What is the approximate overall length/wingspan/fuselage diamater of the aircraft?
3. Are you sure they were .50 cal Brownings? Could they have been .303s?
4. You've mentioned the props. Any info on the engines?
5. Of what material is the aircraft constructed? Wood? Metal? Fabric? Wood in general with metal control surfaces?
6. Markings?
7. Are the seats exactly side-by-side or is one seat slightly forward of the other?
8. Is there a radiator on each wing between the engine and the fuselage?

If you give me the .303s, I'd be thinking De Havilland Mosquito. If not, I've got a couple others in mind, but based on what you've said thus far, I'm leaning toward the Mosquito (but I just don't think they had any with the .50s... B25s had the .50s, (and some of them were even converted to the four .50s in the nose in Australia), but if you're implying a crew of two, you're probably short for the Mitchell. Also, the Mitchell's got a turret...)

Dave

[CoodaShooda]

Gramps

You might have more luck in History and Nostalgia.

Could be a Boston converted to carry multiple .50 cal Brownings in the navigator's compartment.

[aviate1138]

Gramps asked about a wreck he discovered.

Aviate 1138 having Googled, came up with this....

<http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20_26.html >

I see there were a number of Havocs/Bostons which had .5 cal guns fitted. A pair each side in the nose.
Most action was around PNG and Australia both with ex RAF/Dutch and ex USAAF machines.
I would not expect it to be a Mosquito as the whole machine was wood and so it would have disappeared very quickly.

If in doubt - Google!

Aviate 1138

[LowNSlow]

I would have thought that a Beaufighter was more likely than the Mossie as there were more Beaus in the Far East. The Mossies had a nasty habit of coming unglued in the tropical dampnes......

[CoodaShooda]

From memory Mosquitoes and Beaufighters mounted .303 cal machine guns. The Beau's were wing mounted.

My money's still on the Boston/Havoc.

[Simtech]

I'm willing to be corrected but didn't some of the Australian-built Beaufighters (Mk 21?) carry 4 x 20mm and 4 x 0.5"?

[CoodaShooda]

simtech
You could be right. The Mk21 had revised armament with (from photos) only 2 machine guns in each wing. They could have been .50 cals.

However, they were still wing mounted, which tends to eliminate the Beau as gramps' mystery aircraft.

[Torres]

Gramps. All the wrecks in and around the Straits are documented. Where exactly is/was the aircraft wreck?

Re Mosquito, I don't know of any Mosquitos in the Straits or PNG and suspect there wasn't any in that area. There is a couple Beauforts (and three other aircraft) in the area of Jacky Jacky airport at Bamaga, one Beaufort being nothing left but a few rusted pieces of metal, the other disassembled but reasonably complete. Both those are across the strip from the "Passenger Terminal" (or what's left of it!!!) Those wrecks certainly had all armament removed.

There is also four or five aircraft (including one or two Hudsons) off the end of the Horn Island airstrip and a fighter off the end of RW 08.

Richard See Kee at the Gateway Torres Strait Resort on Horn Island (which has it's own private war museum) knows every aircraft wreck in the Torres Strait region.

[LowNSlow]

If the crew seats are side by side then I'd go with CoodaShooda on the Havoc/Boston. If the seats are inline with one facing forward and one facing back then it's probably a Beaufighter.

Did the Aussie-built Beauforts have machine guns in the nose?

gramps was the nose glazed or "solid"

[Halcyon Days]

I am not particularly up on the various armaments carried by these types but could it possibly be an A-26 Invader.?
I seem to recollect reading about A-26s being used in that theatre and being specially armed for night shipping attacks etc.

[CoodaShooda]

Lownslow
I thought the Boston was single pilot with rear gunner (and bombadier/nav in the nose compartment in the models w/o the extra guns). You're not confusing it with the B25 Mitchell are you?

The Beaufighter didn't have any nose mounted armament as such due to lack of space....4 cannon in the belly and machine guns outboard of the engines...plus bombs, torpedoes, rockets etc.

[LowNSlow]

CoodaShooda I think you are right that the Boston/Havoc only had one pilot due to the narrow fuselage. According to one article I read, the early versions had 'controls for the rear gunner should the pilot be incapacitated'. Now that must have been interesting :ooh: :ooh:

OK possible candidates are:

Mosquito - unlikely as it would have rotted away by now plus there were not that many of them in the Pacific.

B-25 Mitchell - likely as it had 2 pilot seats plus 0.5 cal Brownings in the nose

Boston / Havoc - guns in the nose but 0.3 cal in both versions, more in the Havoc. Only one pilot seat.

Beaufighter - Only one pilot seat plus 0.3 cal guns in wings, 20mm cannon in the nose

Beaufort - Only one pilot seat, guns in belly pack (I think)

A-26 Invader - guns in nose in most variants, two pilot seats but relatively few (compared to the B-25) saw service in WW2

B-26 Marauder - two pilot seats, nose mounted 0.5 cal guns but four blade props.

I reckon it's a B-25 Mitchell based on the above.

[CoodaShooda]

LowNSlow

Ain't this fun :)

The B-25 at Darwin's Aviation Heritage Centre was converted to carry the nose guns but I think it still has a mid-upper turret.

The RAAF converted a number of Bostons to add 4 to 6 .50 cals in a nose mount in addition to the 2x .303's they came with. That's why it gets my vote.

Just hope gramps finally identifies it and puts us out of our misery :}

[LowNSlow]

CoodaShooda certainly helps to pass a boring day at the office!

I forgot that Gramps had said there was no mid-upper turrent which was why I initially went for the Beaufighter.

The Boston only had one pilot seat so we are back to square one :sad:

Maybe they aren't 0.5 cal guns after all and the aircraft is a Mitsubishi Betty!!

[LowNSlow]

Maybe the B-25 is back in the frame. From snouting around on Google I have deduced that a lot of B-25's were in service without a mid-upper turret judging by their pictures. However, the pictures were of B-25's restored in to wartime configuration from their civvy identities as sprayers so maybe there weren't enough turrets to go around........

C'mon Gramps give us some more info :confused: :confused:

[CoodaShooda]

LowNSlow

I admire keeness for a lost cause but.....:}

B-25's tended to carry between 4 and 7 crew. A-20's on the other hand were a 2-3 crew operation.

Try Boston (http://www.redroomodels.com/html/boston.html) :p

[LowNSlow]

Cooda I've just done what I should have earlier and re-read Gramps' original post. :ouch:

He did say crew seats rather than pilot's seats so I reckon it's an A-20 of some description. I'd go for the Havoc rather than the Boston as the Boston had 3 crew seats. :ok:

If Gramps has mistaken a Browning 0.5 cal for an Hispano 20mm (highly unlikely), it could still be a Beaufighter :p :p :ouch:

[CoodaShooda]

LNS my friend

Good to see you're not willing to easily give up an enjoyable exchange of disparate opinions. :ok:

The only problem with the Beaufighter option is that the cannon were mounted in the belly, behind and below the pilot, not in the nose as such.

Nevertheless, I'm only going on gramps original post, so I could be completely off beam. :O

I wish he'd come back with an update.

[LowNSlow]

Cooda damn, I'd forgotten the location of the guns themselves, they were indeed mounted behind the driver's seat. I remember reading an account written by a WOP/AG describing what fun he had trying to change the drums full of 20mm shells as the pilot tried to stay on the tail of a JU-88. Loadsalaffs it was. I think he only lost a couple of fingernails....... and his fingers looked like a blind cobbler's for a few days. :uhoh:

OK, I give up, a Havoc it is then, unless they weren't Brownings and then it could maybe be a Nakajima G6M Gekko (called Irving by the Allies) or a Ki102 Type 4 Assault (Randy) :E :E :E

[CoodaShooda]

Wasn't the Gekko the bomber destroyer with cannon mounted ventrally, aimed upwards at 45%a la Schrage Musik (sp)

(I knew it was a bad idea to donate all my aviation books to the library.)

[LowNSlow]

The pics I saw showed in conventionally armed but the Type 4 had pictures with what appeard to be a 37mm cannon poking out of the snout a la the Tetse version of the Mosquito or the Henschel HS-129 B3

[CoodaShooda]

The Japanese developed some potent aircraft during WW2. Pity there's not much of them left.

I wonder what the largest calibre airborne gun used in action was.

[Dale Harris]

Probably the 75 mm field gun conversion on the B 25 I think cooda. However, I am vaguely aware of another that may have been bigger, but not able to recall it. Maybe gramps, having admitted finding said machine gun has fallen foul of our stupid legislation......... I hope not...

[LowNSlow]

Largest gun pre the 105mm fitted to the A-130 Spectre was the 75mm in the B-25G as Dale says.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Please forgive the thread creep, but what was the largest gun fitted to a single? My uncle once told me he saw a hurricane tank-buster (from memory twin 40mm) in action – he said the aircraft virtually stopped in the air each time it fired.....

I also have a fuzzy memory of reading about a small field gun being fitted to one, but that might just be age and alcohol taking its toll.

[LowNSlow]

BFU I recall reading about the 40mm equipped Hurri with similar comments being applied. The only other single I can think of with 'big' guns was the Ju-87 with 37mm cannon.

[izod tester]

Two DH4s were fitted with a 37mm Coventry Ordance Works (COW) gun during WW1. The gun was mounted to fire upwards as an anti zeppelin weapon.

Also Westlands developed a prototype sigle seat fighter with a similar upwards firing 37mm gun. See the link here:

http://www.whl.co.uk/history_cow_gunfighter.html

[gramps]

Thanks to all who replied,

Here are the answers to some of those additional questions :


It is definately a .50 Cal Browning, not a .30

Definately not a B25 as no upper turret

I can't be 100% if the seats were side by side or not due to the position they are now in after the crash. Same goes for the nose - not sure if it is glazed or not.

No markings visible on the entire aircraft as the surface is covered in marine growth.

Wing is intact and made of metal.

It is not any of the specific wrecks mentioned by Torres as this aircraft is in the water - not on land - also in different location.

Thanks again,

Gramps

[CoodaShooda]

Hey Gramps
Any chance of a photo?

I think a few of us have now got an itch we need to scratch:O

[gramps]

Coodashooda - photo not possible at this stage due to lack of underwater camera and more importantly currently being on other side of world.

Have got a couple of leads to go on so will let everyone know when I know.

Thanks everyone,

Gramps

[CoodaShooda]

Thanks gramps, looking forward to your results.

Your reference to the two seats being in close proximity now has me questioning whether it is a Boston. :}

[LowNSlow]

Good to hear from you gramps we were wondering if the thought police had bagged you for having a .50 cal Browning! Don't forget to keep us posted.

Cooda you're not starting to doubt it was an A-20 now are you :p

If the seats were side by side we're back to square one again!

gramps I've just been doing some frantic Googling.

If your wreck has two crew seats side by side and there are two 0.5 cal Brownings on the right hand side of the cockpit only then it could be one of the early A-26C Invaders, the kind with the glazed nose.
However they did have a mid-upper turret of sorts. It was an unglazed cupola mounted toward the rear, in line with the trailing edge of the wing with another two 05. Brownings in it.

[Cat.S]

I wouldn't mind betting that Gramps knows a 50 cal Browning when he sees one as they are pretty distinguishable! The problem with A/C used in the Pacific theatre was the large number of local modifications made to them. I'm sure I've read reports of B25s where the crew have had the mid upper turret removed for wieght and balance reasons when they have been locally converted to gunships.
The clincher as to whether or not the gun is fixed or nose-glaze mounted should be on the butt plate of the 50 cal. If fixed, it will only have a small cylindrical protuberance sticking out of the back, if mounted in a swivel it will have spade grips and central thumb trigger.

[LowNSlow]

Cat S I think the guns on the A-26C (glazed nose) were fixed on the starboard side. On the B-25 they were mounted in packs on the fuselage sides just below the pilots' side windows. So all aof these would not have the spade grips I'd assume.

[gramps]

Cat S,

It has the cylindrical extension at the back without grips. It was fixed mounted to the frame and extended through a curved section of metal skin either in the nose or very close to the nose.

Cheers

Gramps

[Cat.S]

Found this site giving a lot of details about Boston/Havoc armament options. From memeory though, the Boston had tandem seating for the pilot/ navigator when the nose was of the non-glazed type. No upper turret though, just a glazed postion towards the rear of the fuselage- could have broken off at this location?

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20.html

[LowNSlow]

Just thought I'd drag this one back to see if gramps ever did get photos of the wreck or some other method of ID

[Kolibear]

Are you sure that its definately a Browning, or at least an Allied gun?

If its a Japanese weapon, then that opens up a whole new field and my knowledge of Japanese is poor to say the least.