Pilots with degrees??

[hm671]

Was wondering how many of you UK's pilots had a university degree and whether or not it was at all related to aviation?

I ask this as I am just beginning to make uni choices. Eventually I hope to go on to obtain a fATPL either through self-funding or sponsorship. I have found the following aviation related courses:

http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/depts/bssm/aviation/courses/courses_home.cfm

http://www.city.ac.uk/ugrad/engineering/airtransportstudies.htm

http://www.bcuc.ac.uk/main.asp?page=126

http://www.lboro.ac.uk/prospectus/ug/cv/atm/

http://www.leeds.ac.uk/speme/aviation/index.html

The first 2 courses aren't exactly from our ....uhum..."better" universities, which has led me to the following questions-
Do any of these courses make me any more attractive to a sponsor or if I go the self-funded route, an employer? i.e. would it put me "above" all the other low hour fATPL holders?

Or on the other hand would I do better with a largely unrelated degree, showing my other interests/talents? (I also might not go to uni at all)

thanks

[Thunderbug]

HM671

Not an easy one this...

I went to uni - actually a polytechnic (which later became a uni) - and studied Aersospace Engineering (Rocket Science :8 ) on the basis that it had something to do with aeroplanes! The poly was chosen as it had lower entry requirements and offered a more practical slant to the academicly minded courses at proper unis.

I always wanted to fly and I saw the course as a path to a back-up career in very likely case that I couldn't get sponsored and have to pay my way.

As it was sponsorships were non-existant due to a recession, so I used my degree to go off to work as an engineer at a Big Airline. This I did for a while until during a re-organisation we all had to apply for our own jobs. At the same time the airline started a new sponsored pilot training scheme. I applied and was accepted. I am now co-pilot on 744 :ok:

It seems my masterplan worked; but I found aerospace engineering a tough course, with too much emphasis on engineering and not enough on aerospace. Post degree, most of my fellow students had a tough time getting sensible, well paying jobs. Knowing that now, I would probably have chosen a course in IT / computing. But that could have taken me down a very different road.

I don't think doing an aviation degree will make you any more attractive to a potential sponsor. It is still down to showing you have worked hard at your chosen course and that together with all the other activities you do have produced a well rounded character.

One school of thought is that if you are going to get in to massive debt going to a second rate uni to get an 'ology - why not go into massive debt going to a first rate flying school and get a CPL!

Whatever your choice - good luck and I hope it works for you.

T'bug

[Lucifer]

Lots of people do, but not so many in aviation-related subjects. Don't however write off City and London Met, as they are carving out their niche in these subjects, and are certainly not unrespected. Depending upon what your strengths are, it might be better to expand your opportunities rather than narrow them to aviation at this stage i you are going to uni, since you give yourself the option of the backup career through having a more academic degree - however as long as you are achieving your potential at uni, enjoying yourself and not drinking away your loan then it's not really an issue what you do, unless you have a specific backup career plan in addition. Crucially try not to limit your options - an aviation degree eg aeronautical eng, management etc will wtill make you attractive to the city.

[noisy]

HM671,

I’m not a professional pilot, but I’m going to butt in and have my say anyway. I graduated in the aftermath of the WTC attacks with an honours degree in Aeronautical Engineering and was shocked when I found that nobody wanted to employ me.
The first day I went into the job centre I struck up a conversation with the girl behind the counter. It turned out that she had graduated in (guess what?) Aeronautical engineering from City Uni. She still works there now.

Some of my mates have worked hard and been lucky. They have not very secure jobs in a penny pinching, overworked industry.

I reckon that you would be better off doing a degree in marketing, management or something of that ilk as this will make you a more attractive proposition to potential employers and will be more useful in your later career. (Not that I am in the position to speak on that!)

Having said that, I am very proud of my degree, although the media types I work with don’t really understand. It was a mountain of hard work and a continuous struggle. In spite of all the crap I’ve been through I wouldn’t have done any other course. I have some great like-minded lifetime friends.

NB Don’t forget about the money-it’s not likely to get any cheaper.

Oh, and good luck.

[witchdoctor]

My ATPL course was about 50/50 between grads and non-grads and it made no difference at all to the results of the groundschool or flying. Only 3 of the course had any theory resits to do, and 2 of them were grads. If anything, the grads with backgrounds in physics or engineering found the groundschool hardest as some of the more technical subjects were very over-simplified in relation to their level of knowledge and they found it hard to accept the JAA answer to questions which they knew were technically incorect.

More importantly, holding a degree has made no difference whatsoever to employability after the course finished - it is again about 50/50 between grads and non-grads. Sheer good fortune appears to have played a bigger role in chasing down the elusive vacancies than anything else.

[aspidustra]

this is a topic i've been doing a lot of thinking about recently.

my situation is that I'm doing a gap year and have a place to study an engineering uni course next year. however i'm set on being a pilot so trying to weigh up the pros and cons of actually doing this degree.

the aspect that i'd be interested to hear comments on would be that of time. whilst i know that gaining an engineering degree will give me a good backup career, is spending 4 years doing this going to hurt my chances of getting a pilot job? any of you lucky pilots out there have any experience of this?

i know for one thing that the old BA sponsorship had an upper age limit (26??) and so anything that comes along in the future may also have one.

any comments or experiences which could help my decision?

[noisy]

Aspidustra,

I don't know if this is relevant, but I would like to point out that studying for the degree and studying at a flight school at the same time would be a heavy workload (if that's what you're thinking of). A couple of my friends tried it and couldn't hack it. I know what they mean now I have begun studying for the PPL.

Also, in the UK you are looking at a cost of at least £10k-a not inconsiderable sum of money which might be better put towards flying training.

Noisy

[JT8]

I graduated in Aero Eng from Loughborough uni a fews years back. After self funding my training and finishing in November, I am now in the CTC ATP scheme holding pool.

If you are set on a career as a pilot choose the degree you will most enjoy and are interested in. If its not aviation based just be sure it's a degree that can help to secure employment in an area you would like to work should the flying not work out.

During my degree I did an industrial placement with BA, and after graduating I worked for a full flight sim manufacturer :D
So in my case it provided opportunities that I feel helped when applying to some airlines as a pilot.

All the best with your decision.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I confess that my BEng is sufficiently far in the mists of time that it's starting to fade but a few thoughts....

- Aero Eng is 3 or 4 years of VERY hard work. It's enjoyable and rewarding but unless you are genuinely interested in engineering, why waste all that time and effort? Frankly unless I had that level of interest, I don't think that I could have stuck it out.

- You can't avoid a year or two of basic theory in an aero-eng degree, it's essential to being able to cope with any of the specialist aerospace stuff. Tough, but that's the way it is.

- If you are looking for an airline career, an aerospace management degree, or something like Leeds' aeronautical science course would be far more useful to you.

- If you ONLY want to be a pilot, and are not even looking to be an aviation manager, why bother with a degree anyway? - get on with the flying!

- There are people working both as Engineers and as pilots - I'm one of them. But to do the main bulk of your training in both at once is, in my opinion, impracticable; each is too demanding in its own right. A combined Eng/Sci + PPL makes sense, but not a professional pilot qualification. Do one, then the other - I don't think that the order matters.

- An engineering degree doesn't qualify you as an Engineer, and not all degree courses are equal in the eyes of potential employers (for example, an Engineering degree from one of the big names like Imperial or Southampton will carry far more weight than one from some other institutions that I won't name). Bear that in mind when making decisions - and consider that A-level grade requirements may give some indication of the level of the course.

G

[hm671]

Firstly thank you all for your replies.

I have considered university primarily as a backup. I am not really a physics/maths person so if i did choose an aviation degree it would probably be like one of the above as it is more managment orientated, however I want to fly the darn things rather than manage them.

Aspidustra - unforunately I will be the last year to escape dear Mr
:mad: Blair's top-up fees so a gap year might prove very costly.

I have too thought very seriously about going straight on to getting a fATPL, however this again leads me back to thinking i need a backup in what appears to be a rather turbulent industry.

thanks again:ok:

[missioncontrol]

Many years ago, I met a commercial pilot whilst I was still at school....

He gave me some advice which I did not heed:
Go and get the best paying job you can, and use that to fund flying aeroplanes as a hobby.

I disregarded that advice, went to Uni, got the Aero Eng Degree, sponsorship by airline, now a captain with a UK airline.

In retrospect , and on balance, I think that the gentleman's advice was probably correct, although I couldn't understand why at the time.

Unfortunately these days, much of the fun of flying aircraft has left this profession, which has poor working conditions, poor pay -in comparison to other "elite professions", and more and more constraints placed on it.

Other factors to consider are whether you will be able to get yourself out of bed at 4:30 am to go to work, and probably not be home until the schoolkids are walking home in the afternoon. By the way , you will have to do this throughout your working life until you retire at 60 years old. You will be tested constantly throughout your working life...unlike doctors, lawyers, to demonstrate your continued competence, sometimes after a long working week with disrupted rest.

If you love aircraft to the detriment of everything else, then none of this will dissuade you, and you need no advice.

Go and study a subject which you think you will enjoy, and which will reward you handsomely.

Good luck sir!

[Diamond 'katana' geezer]

hm671,

I am currently on the degree course at Leeds that you mention.

If you want to know any specifics please ask.

There are also courses very similar to the Leeds course starting at Salford University and Sheffield University.

Geez, :cool:

[Genghis the Engineer]

however this again leads me back to thinking i need a backup

In my opinion, treating a degree in this light is asking for trouble - any degree. A degree is only a starting point in your professional education and doesn't qualify you to do anything. If you want an employment backup, you'd be better off doing bookkeeping courses, qualifying as an outdoor pursuits instructor, doing a primary school teachers course, training as a microlight instructor - something that pays moderately well and for which there's reasonable demand. There are a glut of people with degrees and no professional experience, that's no backup.


There are also courses very similar to the Leeds course starting at Salford University and Sheffield University.

I don't know about the Salford course, but the Sheffield course will not be "very similar". Whilst the PPL element will be similar, the degree will be an Engineering Council approved Engineering Degree, and a very different beast to the "Science" course at Leeds which allows a lot more options in courses and doesn't contain the minima to qualify as an Engineer. (Please don't think I'm criticising the Leeds course, but it's not an Engineering degree and therefore a different prospect.)

G

[mad_jock]

I also have BEng in Mech, but also have 6 years of working in engineering / research.I wouldn't say I never use my degree. More that I use the people skills I had to learn when dealing with fitters and welders and the like.

The aero course is famous for being a student puller. The courses are always full but poeple do struggle to get jobs afterwards and if you have anything less than a first you can forget it. Also the degree is that focused on Areo the other engineering employers won't look at you as they will have lots of Mech Eng's and the like applying.

If you must go to uni go for a general engineering degree like Mech, Electrical etc they offer the largest scope for employment afterwards.

In fact after graduating I think more students from my course ended up working in the finance than bending steel.

First thing I would do is get a class 1 medical and see if the CAA will even let you work as a pilot.

Then make a budget up of the cost for Uni. I would bet its nearly the same as getting a commercial license.

Then put your heart and soul into doing what ever you feel is best.

BTW working as a pilot isn't what I expected. Luckly for me its better than I ever imagined. Opps did i saying working, turning up and doing what I enjoy and some nice chap pays me for it.

MJ

Just remembered Strathclyde started a Mech eng with Areo degree just as i left being a RA. Its acredited if you phone up and ask to speak to Mat Stickland I am sure he will fill you in on it.

Navier Stokes in 3rd year was enough for me thanks, what a brain f*ck that was.

[expedite_climb]

To those thinking of skipping uni to start ATPL's I would say think very carefully.

Yes you may have a CPL at 19. Fantastic. But are you employable ? What life skills do you have that would make you a good pilot ? None.

Dont forget that flying is as much a management job (of the aeroplane, crew & pax as it is raw flying these days).

Think what your C.V. will say..... flying, flying and flying. Great, but all flying and nothing else makes John a dull boy.

Go to uni, enjoy yourself, and learn something useful that you can use elsewhere in life, or in between flying jobs.

Me ? I did my ATPL's and FI rating in a year off before uni, did a non flying degree, and graduated with just short of 2000 hours, an honours degree, memories of 3 great years and walked into a jet job. I wouldnt do it any different if I did it all again.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

ps And another thought, if you go to uni, youll still have 35 years of commercial flying left, more than enough to do everything and get bored several times over ! Theres no rush, remember you only live once !

[Deske]

In my homeland,You even don't get an ATPL without University Degree.
Reason?

Capt is the "CEO" of some million USD worth aircraft.

[chopperpilot47]

We live in an age where a high percentage of school leavers go on to further education. In any job market the most qualified is likely to be at an advantage. I don't think the subject itself is important, it is a demonstration of academic ability as opposed to no or little proof of ability.

The pilot market has always been cyclical and is likely to continue that way. That alone indicates it is a risky proposition, without considering possible medical problems down the line. I think a backup plan is a good idea particularly where you gain a professional qualification enabling you to revert if you have to.

Singing with Iron Maiden seems to be the ultimate backup plan!

If you want to fly for a living good luck, it is not easy but can be very rewarding or boring depending on your outlook. Combining two vocations or interests seems to me to be the best of both worlds.

Regards,

Chopperpilot47 M.A. LLM