View Full Version : fired while on duty

5th Mar 2004, 05:05
April 25th - Blue Panorama B767 - La Romana LRM to MXP

I arrived in LRM on the 27th and the story was, as by one of the mechanics involved, that the Captain, after having twice taxied out and twice returned to the stand because of an inoperative CDU, decided to aoc the aircraft awaiting repairs.
While still in the disembarking process the Blue Panorama owner calls from Italy and fires the crew on the spot.
On top he forbids them to return home on board any BPA plane. As a fact the two pilots were trying to hitch a ride back with Lauda.

I am trying to get more info. Has anyone more details?

6th Mar 2004, 04:03
Yes, heard the same story too by one of the crew involved. Not surprised anyway, because it's not the first time "El Presidente" fires people guilty of reporting tech problems and sticking to the MEL. He's well known for his despise of pilots, at the point that he forbids them Business class while deadheading before/after duty.
Got a call by a friend some 10 days ago. His crew was due to deadhead from Bologna to Brindisi. Flight canceled, only other flight from Forli airport. Captain requested to pay with his own credit card for tickets for all crew. Captain refuses, because to get the money back he'd have to go to FCO at his own expenses on one of his days off. Crew then sent to BDS by bus (8 hour journey) to operate a BDS-SSH-BLQ on duty right away. Total duty time around 26 hours (of course not mentioned on voyage report).

6th Mar 2004, 05:05
And where are the Italian regulatory authorities while all of this is going on ?

6th Mar 2004, 05:34
Rosbif, in reply to your question, the owner of BPA Mr Pecci has friends in high places.
I believe he is related to the Pope! (nephew or grand-nephew or something like that)

6th Mar 2004, 05:41
Sounds as if BPA is an accident waiting to happen. The $hit will then hit the fan but too late for the victims. :*

6th Mar 2004, 17:59
Is there no CHIRP or similar operating in Italy? BTW Hector, the Pope's name is Karel Wojtyla - he's Polish!

7th Mar 2004, 01:55
Hi Guys

I have worked For Mr Pecci the Dux of the company , he is entitled to :

Upgrade pilots from f\o to captain
Increase or decrease your salary

etc etc

7th Mar 2004, 04:15
Yes Nineiron, I would assume the relationship is through some female member of the Pope's family whose married name is obviously not Wojtyla.

7th Mar 2004, 05:13
It was Pecci's Great Uncle who was Pope around 1903
I suppose this makes him well connected
Join the club ....I was fired by the Prez for refusing to accept an aircraft which had an illegal repair done in Havana!!!
If the station manager is reading this I hope his escape attempts out of Cuba are successful
Maybe the Italian CAA will investigate his airlines crew records but I doubt it

7th Mar 2004, 06:27
>>It was Pecci's Great Uncle who was Pope around 1903<<

Would that be Pope Leo XIII, aka Gioacchino Vincenzo Raffaele Luigi Pecci?


What Red Line?
7th Mar 2004, 09:45
planoramix says it was April 25th. I guess that was 2003 was it?

Anyone care to guess how much has racked up in parking charges since then?

I am assuming that no-one has flown it out of LRM have they?

All for one, and one for all.

7th Mar 2004, 18:09
As I have proposed before:the Italian commercial (civil) aviation should be run by non-Italians,people with at least some sense of legality and responsability to an entity outside the reach of italian politics.I see no other solution.

7th Mar 2004, 18:49
No, that was February 2004, probably a mistake by planoramix.

James T. Kirk
7th Mar 2004, 19:43
I spent a summer on contract at Blue Paranoia and it is an accident waiting to happen. There is zero maintenance done during the busy summer season, we flew a whole season with a leaking centre fuel tank which Boeing told us not to use. Didn’t stop the company dispatching the aeroplane on MXP-SSH trips with no tech stop though. At the same time we had an aeroplane loose a main wheel on takeoff not to mention a host of pressurisation, flap, avionics and flight control problems for the same reason of no maintenance.

The permanent crews where not much better. Two of the captains there were scared of flying (I know this is getting unbelievable now but I kid you not). Actually, given the condition of the aircraft if you were the nervous type you could see their problem. Nevertheless they were terrified every time on duty and the flight deck is not the place! One just lived terrified the other got around the problem by turning up drunk, Not having had a drink mind you but drunk. I noticed this on a MXP-SSH trip with the leaking tank and he sobered up over Athens, left the flight deck for about thirty minutes to top up.

The management have already been touched on and I can certainly confirm that there are problems. One of the management pilots would pass any pilot on a line check as long as he signed up to the Herbal Life pyramid selling scheme. A nice guy but in the wrong job. Another trainer was so bad that even the airline recognised that he was a problem. His brother was in the Italian CAA however which was the only reason the airline could get anything done, so he stayed.

There is more but you get the idea. I am not blowing the whistle because I have any axe to grind but this airline is a real accident waiting to happen, another Flash.

The above sounds incredible but it’s all true.

Kirk out…

7th Mar 2004, 23:24
Interesting side note Blue Panorama is advertising for cabin staff and command pilots on their web site.

What travel agency is using them and why? Perhaps this thread should be e-mailed to all concerned. That should stop things in a hurry.

8th Mar 2004, 04:54

Thank you for clearing up the issue of Mr Pecci's papal connections. I had originally heard the story about 3rd hand so was'nt to sure if it was true or not.

That "illegal repair done in Havana" that you refer to. Was that as a result of the 767 that went agricultural there about a year ago per chance?

8th Mar 2004, 15:50
Re illegal repair ...it wasn,t the agricultural one ....this one was a fan blade


8th Mar 2004, 17:59
Airbubba, hector, twonky,

Yes it’s true, Mr Franco Pecci is well connected with the present (
:yuk: ) Italian politicians.

No, by no means Mr. Franco Pecci is connected to the old and noble Pecci-Blunt family (those with Papa Leone XIII and the filosopher Giuseppe Pecci amongst their ancestors) it is a simple case of “partial” homonymy (check the Roma Telephone Directory and you will see that Pecci is a widespread name…).

I’m saying “partial” because the name of the aristocratic (Earls or Counts) descendants of Papa Leone XIII is now “Pecci-Blunt”.

I don’t know how this “metropolitan legend” was started, maybe it was Franco Pecci himself (the :mad:guy has a huge ego...).

tarjet fixated
10th Mar 2004, 02:24
interesting...you can reach the italian flight safety agency with the whole thread to the below e-mails:
[email protected]
[email protected]

10th Mar 2004, 17:20
just to clarifies some of the event

when the captain saw the U/S cdu he left the plane with all the crew leaving the passengers onboard without calling the dispatch.he went straight back to the hotel.
in 30 min the problem was solved by the technicians
the incoming crew brought back the plane after a minimum rest with the previous crew on board
only the captain was fired in this case.when he arrived in MXP
i agree that blue pan is not the best one but you can't start that kind of threat without knowing the facts.

11th Mar 2004, 08:04

I wasn’t there so I don’t know what happened except for the information that has been posted on this thread. However your take on what happened doesn’t ring true for any aircraft Captain that I know.

Captains don’t walk off aircraft and head back to the hotel without just cause and even then it’s highly unlikely. There’s oblivious more to the story…

In case you’re interested it is against safety regulations for a crew to leave passengers unattended on any aircraft

11th Mar 2004, 22:26
Blue Panorama (aka Blue Banana) is a company were also those wishing to operate professionaly are, in most cases, confronted with a dilemma:

a- comply with aeronautical rules and regulations or
b- comply with Pecci's personal rules and regulations

If everybody would walk away from Pecci's type ruled companies it would be a better world for all of Us in the industry. Although we all are confronted with other issues that make that kind of decision hard or impossible to take. Nobody can be criticized.

What we can and should try to do is rise the Authorities interest when such dangerous course of actions are "imposed" by the management.

WHERE ARE THE AUTHORITIES? ???????????????????????????????????

Having myself resigned from BPA (I personally do not and will not allow anyone to force me to operate against safety regulations and I am not talking about low press in a cabin oxy bottle .............) I know that when the mechanics in LRM tell me that a call was made by Pecci to fire the Captain and F/O at the airport it was not something .... impossible.

But Velemax please explain to me why do You say the call was received in the hotel and why do you say that BPA willingly gave them a ride back if Lauda was requested and had agreed to fly back two BPA pilots from LRM to MXP on LDI staff ticket.
Did they not came back to MXP on the same aircraft F-GLOV only because ... for the first time!!! .. a BPA crew disobeyng to Pecci's ruling had imposed it?
Please advise

15th Mar 2004, 10:16
hi Planoramix,
Do you really thing Mr Pecci runs the italian CAA?The captain in this case was already on the move to quit bloody paranoia,he just took this opportunity to screw Mr P.big time.i wasn't there but what would be your course of action with only one CDU?waiting for a technician,return non-mnps to Italy(knowing that italians pilots can fly up to 13 h flight time and 17 h duty only with 2 pilots)or leave the plane?If Mr P. continues to fired pilots just for tech or delay problems he gonna be out of bizness in a week.
If there's a problem you go in the MEL and sort out the solution or you phone the dispatch to advise,i had never seen a problem with that and i'm still working for them.i say again,BPA is not the best company around but not the worst one(still)

15th Mar 2004, 12:59
velemax, I spoke recently with someone who was there when it happened and he says it isn't the way you describe.

Send Clowns
15th Mar 2004, 20:13
Their website shows UK destinations. Surely the CAA ought to know about this, and carry out some sort of checks, and if confirmed then ban them from our airspace? What on Earth are our regulators doing about aviation? They seem to concentrate on entirely the wrong areas, to the detriment of flight safety, their main remit :rolleyes:

16th Mar 2004, 13:36

These findings are a detailed description of observations made during an unofficial audit over a number of flights at BLUE PANORAMA. This is accumulative and the items mentioned did not necessarily occur on every flight. Possible solutions are offered where available. Although these findings have been submitted early on in the audit process, clear trends have already become evident. It was felt prudent to bring these to the attention on the flight operations management as soon as possible.


1. No organized crew discussion concerning weather, notams or fuel decision. FOs and Captains do not share each task in a specific and organized ETOPS way of thinking. “ETOPS DISPATCH AND CREW CHECK-LIST” (see annex 1) as used in long-haul airlines should be considered > CRM lacking. For example, FOs does not scrutinize notams thoroughly and brief the Captains on important items.

2. Crew must check the weather of all departure (+ alternate on departure if re-land is impossible due to weather), en route, emergency, destination and alternate airfields. Check the notams of all these airfields. Check the AERAD plates of all these fields. Relate available runways and weather from these fields to landing minima and crosswind limits to check if these fields are usable. These fields may be needed in an emergency. ETOPS weather minimums should be available for pilot’s flight planning (see annex 2). For example pilots are not able to check if CYYT, TXKF or any other ETOPS field retained as alternate is really above ETOPS weather minimums. This is a MUST…

3. Fuel policy should be reviewed to ensure it complies with the appropriate regulations and all dispatchers must be familiar with the updated regulations. There may be areas for fuel savings here as well.

4. There should be a route clearance unit summary of all BPA routes. This must NOT be a regurgitation of the AERAD manual but rather important pilot and operational information specific to the route.

5. The Captain should NEVER have to argue with dispatcher re extra fuel if needed. If, in the opinion of the dispatcher an unreasonable decision has been made, this information should be reported to the Chief pilot of the fleet who may at a later stage choose in to discuss this with the Captain at a convenient time. As the dispatcher has no 767 command experience, he can not possibly make an informed decision about the fuel requirements. Management should in turn set up an extra fuel tracking system to monitor extra uplifts so they can be controlled.

6. Dispatchers regularly file LIMJ (Genoa) as an alternate departure or alternate arrival for LIMC (Milan Malpensa) for which most 767 operators does not approve 767 operations : downdrafts and updrafts reported, specific aerological concerns which oblige operators to usually classify this airport as a category C airport.

7. Specific flight planning rooms are ONLY available in LIMC (Milan Malpensa) and MUHA (Havana). Crews shouldn’t be obliged to prepare their flight in front of the passengers in the boarding area or in the cockpit. This is nearly illegal and does not respect the minimum airmanship. Each BPA station should provide a quiet room to ensure adequate flight planning. In case of training flight, the actual situation aggravates the CRM lacking.

8. Cabin crew briefing is rarely done by the captain. It should be done on every flight and a specific document should be given to the Chief Purser (see Annex 3). > CRM lacking

9. Flight documentation (Operations Manuals A to D) are not JAR organized and it is really difficult to find the appropriate information in a minimum of time.

10. Altitude capability performance must be cross-checked on the appropriate charts before departure (Optimum and 1.3G altitudes to be checked).


1. FOs or Captains do not do thorough preflight, sometimes sloppy. They do it in record time and would not pick up any problems because of the rush they are in.

2. When getting on board, the FO must ensure that ALL en route emergency, suitable and alternate AERAD plates are in the manuals for the flight. Crews do not check on board manuals to make sure that the alternate plates are there in case of a diversion, en route and destination.

3. No Dangerous goods manual on board going or diverting to USA (i.e. KBWI). No one knows where it should be kept. The FAA checks this.

4. Crew must use a torch for preflight at night, this is sometimes not done.

5. IRS position entered by the PNF should be crosscked at any time before being computed. > this is basic airmanship. Further, the IRS DSPL SEL should be positioned to PPOS

6. The official Boeing 767 Operations Manual Volume 1 stipulates well organized and CRM minded tasks thru the PREFLIGHT and BEFORE START set-up & check-list. This is not presently the case : BPA set ups and check-lists are related to an old and non-always understood philosophy used by the former Air Europe at the beginning of the 767 operations. This results in a non-logical process for every step of any check-list. BPA Operations Manual Volume B does not respect the latest Boeing recommendations (see latest Boeing Operations Manual updates – rev.22 available thru http//myboeingfleet.com).
Boeing normal checklist has had many changes that result in flow breakdown and ultimately violations. There must be a return to the normal Boeing checklist. This will also resolve the confusion that arises with respect to checklist responses in the cockpit.

7. Crew should brief on aircraft differences, engines etc. max T/O EGT during the pre-flight

8. According to BPA policy, It should be a normal crew function to assume an ETOPS post-flight check after a 17 hours (or even more !) flight duty. This a absolutely not JAR related and being able to fly for example from Milan Malpensa to Cancun and back to Milan Malpensa without any pertinent check from a qualified engineer in MMUN is definitely NOT SAFE. A lot of crews are not current with the “POST FLIGHT CHECK” and some never had any course on the matter ! This procedure more Italian than European encourages crews to leave without the optimum oil or hydraulics refill (in the mean time some pilots do not know the minimum oil dispatch for GE and PW engines !)
There is obviously some JAR protocol here that needs to be clarified as soon as possible.

9. Suggest RTO touch drills + time of jettison when briefing. Take off alternate should be discussed and included in the take off briefing when appropriate. In case of Low Visibility Operations, a specific briefing should be done by the captain. The use of a remainder available at the first page of the QRH is recommended (see below):

10. During crosscheck of the take off speeds/performance, a easy rule by thumb check should be made by the captain for V2 (the survival speed) : i.e. V2 should be equal to the Flaps 20 approach speed plus or minus 3 knots. This easy to remember process is not the only one, but there should be some insistence on killer switches (V2 knob speed, Stab trim, etc.)

11. Loadsheet should be performed by qualified ground staff instead of being done by tired crews. A mistake such as Tailstrike on takeoff could ruin BPA efforts to become a respected airline in its business. The current procedure is more than UNSAFE and is a identified key factor for creating unaffordable delays
Loadsheet should be also read aloud to whole crew and Zero Fuel Weight crosschecked by the PF and the PNF.



1. Work towards silent start. Call malfunctions rather indications (“Fuel ON”) on the normal start.

2. Engine start must be done by LH seat pilot (captain) ONLY as per Boeing Operations Manual.

3. It is quite strange not to check the flight controls BEFORE the engine start (see Boeing Operations Manual) : this should be the appropriate way to check the normal operation of the HYD ELEC PUMPS in case of dual engine failure in flight. The strange BPA procedure is an old heritage from nowhere.

4. Standard phraseology for pushback procedure must be developed and taught to Cockpit and ground crew. If not, we can expect broken tow bars and structural damage to be a possibility.

5. There is confusion on PF/PNF duties for start and taxi.


1. Crew must have feet correctly positioned on rudder pedals for the RTO and must ensure on rudder check that full deflection is possible with current rudder pedal and seat settings to ensure full braking is available.

2. Boeing checklist - Compare checklist with standard Boeing checklist and make appropriate changes to avoid violations, e.g. non essential items have been inserted to the before take off checklist (as a reminder, Official Boeing Before Takeoff Check-List has only ONE item related to Flaps with only ONE answer). This causes distraction and unnecessary cockpit chatter when anticipation take off clearance. The consequence is the aircraft getting airborne without take off clearance. A return to the Boeing checklist and procedures is imperative.

3. Awareness V1 is brakes on speed NOT decision speed. Crews require RTO training and standardize simulator and line procedure.

4. Altitude awareness procedure should be incorporated into normal procedures.

5. A/P should be engaged in accordance with conditions and risk management principles. This decision should not be affected just because it is a training/checking flight.

6. Gear lever to be off when the AFTER TAKEOFF Check-List is requested, NOT immediately after gear retracts. There is NO rush to put gear lever to off. In rushing this procedure the FO has put the gear lever to DOWN instead of OFF.

7. Clarify procedure with landing/taxi lights on prior to taxi. In some darkness areas, some people hesitate to use the NOSE GEAR light just because it is assimilated in their mind as a takeoff or a landing clearance !


1. Captains should make FOs aware of VMCG speed when operating at low weights.

2. Crew must become more "wind aware" just prior to take off. Too much Aileron into wind for takeoff causes spoiler float. They must consider the implications of the effect of wind on the RTO, Pax evacuation, vortices and drift after takeoff. (See Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual which should be given to all Captains and FOs. This is no doubt the Boeing Bible…)

5. During the takeoff roll PNF should have his attention focused between scanning outside and inside (mainly Upper Eicas because every takeoff should be stopped before 80 knots for any problem or failure). When the PNF calls “Rotate”, the PF should crosscheck the value on its airspeed indicator before pulling the yoke. It has been observed three times in a month with three different pilots that people have only an outside scan.

6. In conditions of poor weather/high workload/problem, the autopilot must be engaged ASAP after takeoff (In high workload conditions the autopilot should be used till on final approach. An autoland should be considered to manage risk if conditions require).


1. Caution with shoulder harness release. Rapid release could injure someone or damage the P11 panel

2. When retracting flaps, PNF must check that his action on the flap lever is followed by the consecutive movement of the needle on the instrument. The old well known airmanship concept “ACTION-CHECK” is not an evidence for some BPA crews.

3. All FMA annunciation's should be called (see Flight Safety Foundation 2003 Symposium and recommendations).

4. PNF must not contact company or assistance company before 10 000 ft on the climb (with A/P engaged) and must warn the PF he is "off the air".

5. Hand flying the aircraft to cruise altitude in busy airspace is not good risk management as it significantly increases cockpit workload. When hand flying, it is mandatory that the PF calls for all AFDS changes to be done by the PNF so as not to disrupt scan.

6. Crew do not make pilot reports (PIREPS) regarding significant weather and turbulence to ATC.

7. No Altitude awareness procedures in place. Confirmation obtained on flight level changes selected in the altitude window. PNF points out the altitude window and calls “CHECK ?” while the PF responds “CHECKED”. Remember : altitude selector is again a killer switch !

8. All crew, at each waypoint must discuss in detail, the fuel variances (+ or – reported on the Jetplan) and at re dispatch point all crew must be aware of fuel state, destination and en route weather. The re file point is currently not even mentioned and it is a MAJOR event in operational safety on long range operations.

9. Altitude capability performance should have been cross-checked before departure and ESPECIALLY before changing altitudes. Crews often climb to very near thrust limits and well above the optimum plus 2000 ft. This is inviting a stall. (Coffin corner) Crew try to "out climb" weather and thunderstorms this way. Thunderstorms regularly grow up to 60000ft and above. This is a dangerous and futile exercise. When an altitude change is required, the figures must be checked by two crew members before initiating the climb.
Remember : Optimum altitude is the altitude that gives the minimum trip cost for a given trip length, cost index, and gross weight. It provides approximately a 1.5 load factor (approximately 48° bank to buffet onset) or better buffet margin. As deviation from optimum cruise altitude increases, performance economy deteriorates. Some loss of thrust limited maneuver margin can be expected above optimum altitude. Levels 2000 feet above optimum altitude normally allows approximately 45° bank prior to buffet onset. The higher the airplane flies above optimum altitude, the more the thrust margin is reduced. Before accepting an altitude above optimum, determine that it will continue to be acceptable as the flight progresses under projected conditions of temperature and turbulence.
BEST RECOMMENDATION : to always fly at a maximum of 1500 ft below Maximum altitude given by FMC !

10. BPA Crew put newspapers as “big” sunvisor, often with the newspapers held up in such a way that if a hazard appears or an interception occurs, it would not be noticed.

11. En route emergency, suitable, destination and alternate weather is not obtained regularly. It must be obtained and related to notams and the appropriate weather document for that route. If an emergency occurs in the cruise that requires an immediate landing, crew will not have ALWAYS the necessary information at their disposal unless this procedure is followed. Maintain situational awareness at all times. Constantly check en route weather for diversion airfields weather as well as weather at destination and alternate. The crew must develop a situational awareness cocoon around the aircraft at all times.

12. Crew must calculate thru the FMC drift down altitudes / speeds with engine out and place data. Crew must always be aware of 1 engine out performance with respect to optimum altitudes, grid mora's and MEA's. This is not done especially when flying over the Alps. BPA should provide specific charts with recommendations as the well-known one provided by Jeppesen. This should be also done on flights bound to Bangkok or to Male when overflying Iran or Pakistan… Routes and aerodromes briefings should be provided by BPA.

13. The crews do not always understand the RNP concept and the philosophy attached to the IRS NAV ONLY which appear on both FMCs. As a remainder and according to the 2003 International Regulations: in case of non-availability, or failure of the Nav-aids (IRS NAV ONLY message), the following time limits should apply :
1. B-RNAV : do not exceed 2 hours after the latest IRS alignement or nav update
2. RNP10 :
– do not exceed 6 hours 12 minutes after the latest IRS alignement.
– do not exceed 5 hours 54 minutes after a DME/DME update or at the runway threshold.
– do not exceed 5 hours 42 minutes after a VOR/DME update.
3. MNPS : no specific limitation.



1. Descent briefing should be concise and should not exceed 2 minutes After missed approach, discuss alternate course of action. Diversion fuel requirement, routing and altitude and diversion field and weather. Autobrake must be included, discussed and set in landing briefing. Making the Captain select Autobrake minimum after the gear is down and while he is PF can induce vertigo/disorientation and breaks down instrument scan at a critical phase of flight close to the ground. Autobrake should be used with airmanship in mind. It is not necessary to use it for every landing and considerable cost savings can be made here with reduced brake and tire wear.

2. Crew must anticipate turbulence penetration speeds (FMC entries)

3. In case of Cat2/3 approach a quick remainder should be available in the QRH

4. All altimeter call outs must be referenced to pressure altimeter. Cat 2/3 to Radio altimeter only. Radio altimeter setting procedures must be reviewed.

5. Crews do not confirm new cleared altitudes when reset in altitude window.

6. Approach checklist must be done at the correct time and the checklist must not be continued if an item is not complete. (again a return to the Boeing checklist and procedures is imperative).

7. Crews are reluctant to use the speedbrakes. Safety takes priority over passenger comfort. If the speedbrake is needed, it must be used without hesitation.

8. Outer marker height call is to check for glide slope functionality and ensure the correct QNH is set. It is often missed and the consequences can be dire.

9. It is Italian or french procedure to do a time check at the outer marker. (There is no reason for this that we know of). On inquiry, the crew said it is so that the crew can downgrade to an NDB/VOR if the ILS fails. You then have timing to the missed approach point. This attitude may have had a contributory factor to the Guam accident due to the trained mind set. Crews must be trained, in the event of a malfunction of the primary approach aid on any approach, an IMMEDIATE missed approach is necessary. Reestablish situational awareness, find out the problem, re brief and then re-enter the safety window. There is NO other way.

10. Understand the meaning of the terms: radar contact, under radar control and radar vectors.

11. An urgent review of Cat 2/3 procedures is required. Most of the questioned pilots feel CAT3A as a ”let’s go whatever” concept.

12. If a diversion is required, the Captain makes the decision to divert, NOT the dispatcher or the Top Management as was currently the case. It happened with a foreign Captain on board, the FO consults with the dispatcher in Italian and the Captain does not know what they are saying. The crew is then divided as the Captain will want to go with his plan having assessed all the options. The FO will actively oppose the Captain in diverting to his intended airfield of diversion if it is not the same as that of the dispatcher for fear of upsetting the dispatcher. This dispatcher has no idea of aircraft condition or fuel status. The dispatcher may by all means make suggestions to the crew. He may offer alternatives that may assist the company and provide weather, but the decision lies with the Captain and his crew alone. When the decision is made they must support him, implicitly. This is currently a totally unsatisfactory set of circumstances. Some rumors state that one captain has been sacked because his decision to divert was not “politically correct” according to BPA management. If that kind of rumor is confirmed, BPA is much more a dictatorship than an airline with safety concerns.

13. Chart depicted on the EHSI should be checked versus navaids by the PNF before starting descent (Radial & distance of the RDMI checked against the FIX page). A lot of people think that a GPS equipped aircraft never lies… And some forget that the BPA 767 fleet is different : only one aircraft is GPS equipped, the others not…


1. Use of autopilot is totally acceptable to manage risk during an approach.

2. Correct crosswind technique (for landing) to be taught. Crews are using rudder, rudder trim or and aileron trim for landing and pitch trim for the flare. Crew must be taught about the effect of yaw on aspect ratio with swept wing aircraft. Large rudder inputs close to the ground may cause damage.

3. Crew must make more use of visual cues in VMC conditions. For the visual approach, the two most important "instruments" are the window and the VSI. Monitoring the VSI is extremely important on wide body jets and is largely ignored by some people. Crews tend to stay head down for the entire visual approach. Look up and look out.

4. The landing sequence is not correctly realized by most of the BPA 767 pilots. According to the Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual (737 technique is the same as the 767 !).
1 – At touchdown, when Main Landing Gear is on the ground, up and aft rapidly to interlock
2 – When Nose Gear is on the ground, normal reverse until 60 knots
Confusion throughout the fleet on who is PF/PNF on landing roll and the hand over/changeover of control when FO is flying. Some Captains assume control at 80 knots with all thrust reversers coming out, some at 60 knots etc. This must be standardized thru the FCTM. At 60 knots, the LH seat pilot should call “my control” (with the hand onto the steering) giving the signal to the RH seat pilot to release brake pressure and control on the yoke.

5. Nobody should touch the autobrake selector during the landing roll. The RH seat pilot should select the autobrakes OFF when runway is vacated. When captain stows speed brake, clean up automatic. Easy…

6. Go around by 1000 ft RA (IMC) or 500 ft RA (VMC) mandatory if unstable or landing check-list not complete. Management must be trained in the appropriated management of handling of crews with respect to the go arounds. Missed approach when necessary is good airmanship. There should be no fear of disciplinary action after a go around. Minima must NEVER be violated. This is poor airmanship, unsafe and totally unprofessional.

7. All height calls with reference to the pressure altimeter except cat 2/3 calls.

8. Manual flying in poor weather or by night after a long duty is poor management of resources. A monitored coupled approach policy will stop unsafe maneuvers close to the ground and also help eradicate any potential tail strike on landing.

9. Some crew believe it is "not possible to get windshear if there are no mountains" despite thunderstorms in the vicinity. Windshear training is required.



1. SOPS (Standard Operating Procedures) and call outs must be designed for each fleet. Note all callouts require responses. This is to ensure that there is no incapacitation. All pilots make mistakes from time to time. SOP's ensure a level of operation that is standard and well inside the operating envelope of the aircraft. They give the crews confidence in what they are doing. In flying " confidence is contagious, complacency kills." A complacent crew member is a dangerous crew member.

2. Crews are largely unaware of checklist philosophy. A thorough understanding of the checklist and how to manage it is the foundation of a safe operation.

3. AERAD charts have been choosen for economy reasons, not for ERGONOMY reasons. The latest audit organized by Britannia on the topic (June 2003) should be read by the BPA management. The conclusion of the audit was : “AERAD charts philosophy is well different from the one acquired by cockpit crews for years while they have been used to use JEPPESEN charts (…) Less Information, less details (…) JEPPESEN is a MUST to maintain a reasonable level of good airmanship in the flight deck.

4. Current procedures require that the individual crew members operate totally independently of each other. They do not keep each other informed of what they are doing. This is a major risk to flight safety. The crew is a team and must share ALL information. Improved communication will result in improved safety. Crew must announce all changes in frequencies, headings, altitude, courses and switch positions.

6. No circuit breaker of a normally functioning system should be pulled in flight. Any CB that is pulled must only be done with the permission of the Captain and after all crew have discussed the implications thereof.

7. PNF doing the radio often does not wait long enough for ATC to respond after a request is made. This results in the PNF transmitting the request again, just as ATC is responding and transmitting a response. The result is a blocked transmission and failed communication. This often happens a second time for the same reason. Pressure now builds quickly as other aircraft are trying to get in a transmission. Use correct RT procedures.

8. Crew must learn to treat all clearances with suspicion. Never just accept a clearance unless you are totally happy that the clearance is reasonable.

9. Two crew members must be in the cockpit at all times, except for physiological reasons. Crew to announce whenever leaving the cockpit. On return to cockpit the returning crewmember will be told "no change" or advised of any change in ATC, switch position, or aircraft status.

10. Smoking in the cockpit is totally UNSAFE

11. No reading of non-operational material or food preparation in climb or descent.

12. Pilots should take meals at separate times. This in case of an emergency. This is just about the position that the crew wish to eat, and they always eat at the same time. An emergency could have serious consequences if all the crew aren't totally prepared.

13. Loosening of collar and tie reduces fatigue and should be encouraged.

14. No checklist must proceed if any crewmember says "standby". The correct procedure is to read the checklist to where the crew member says standby and then say: e.g. Holding at flaps. Crewmember who stopped the checklist must call for the checklist to proceed when ready.

15. All crew must be involved in fuel decision. Currently, it's the Captain only.

16. Crew must understand what reserve fuel is required i.e. Min tanks + diversion + holding. Crews develop fixations on the destination airfields and do not plan for diversions. Diversions do not just occur because of weather. Airfields can close for a multitude of reasons like fire, hijacking, strong winds etc. Crew must always be diversion orientated.

17. BPA flight operations seem to totally dictated to by the commercial department or top management without due consideration being given to flight safety. NO NEW airport should be operated into unless the standards department of flight operations has done a full and thorough investigation into it and EVALUATED it. The decision of flight operations must be FINAL as they are the flight safety experts. Commercial departments relate only to the bottom line and this is NOT always the cheapest way in the long run.

18. Captains must be trained as aircraft "managers" and must delegate responsibility and manage resources to conduct a safe operation under adverse conditions. This obviously requires that all crew are competent, current and proficient. It is a shame that Captains and FOs are not authorized to rest into the Business Class even this one is empty ! The reaction of Flight Crew Members could be violent within the next few weeks…

19. Headsets must be worn during climb and descent and optional in cruise.

20. Limited knowledge is evident on aircraft performance, specifically take off and landing performance. Refresher courses should be conducted on contaminated runways and anti skid problems. Boeing should be consulted when operational questions arise.

21. Take off and landing briefing must be updated and must provide a logical flow without regurgitating too much info so that the important information is lost. They must include strict and vigilant awareness of Grid MORA, Sector safe altitude and initial approach altitudes. Diversion planning must be made timeously and with adequate fuel reserves. Planning must be done for go around and missed approach, diversion fuel requirement, and routing.

22. Medical department must get involved with crew training with respect to Medical emergency training and management of incapacitated crew members. Crew must be aware of the doctors bag contents and trained in the management of in flight medical emergencies. Knowledge of doctor's bag and contents is essential. The mismanagement of these problems can have major liability problems for BPA.

23. BPA cabin service is of the highest standard as far as presentation and appearance is concerned from a passenger's point of view.

24. English standard needs to be improved to enhance safety with ATC and ground communications. Many of the world best airlines (Swiss, KLM, Emirates, Lufthansa, SAS, Finnair etc.) have English as a second language, but within the airline it is the primary language. All crew however have a very high standard of cockpit English. Publications are in English to ensure crews maintain English currency and competence. A good standard of English is mandatory for flight safety. It is, after all, the international aviation language.

25. CRM should be incorporated into all aspects of BPA's operation. This includes management, training, safety and discipline. Sadly, CRM doesn't seem to leave the ground school building.
A training method of evaluation should be adopted that has the capability of allowing positive reinforcement into the assessment. Constant negative evaluation only is negative training and is destructive.

26. Extra crew talking in the cockpit in terminal areas is unacceptable but occurs most of the time.



BPA crew were very open about pointing out areas of concern for the good of the company. There is tremendous good will within the company and the staff are very keen to see things improve. Good suggestions were made and crews were grateful to have a mechanism to express themselves without fear of retribution or retaliation.
Their feedback is listed below.

1. The flight operations department appears to have poor communications between management and the staff. There is very little feedback to the crew on any matters, important or otherwise. The Foreign Captains especially, source most of the company information via the rumor network. This is a most unsatisfactory and of little benefit to anybody. It appears that the silent, secret dis-information technique is a current management style. The recent tragedy involving the Swissair accident highlights the incredible success Delta and Swiss Air had using rapid, high quality and open communication techniques. THEY WORK and are used in all modern successful businesses!

2. Inter department communications within BPA also seem substandard. There are many examples that the "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing". This can only be resolved by clear, honest and open communication throughout the company.

3. All BPA Aircrew spoken to expressed major aggravation regarding conditions of service, flight and duty time and salary.

4. In the words of the BPA B767 pilots :
- "They do not trust the company" regarding their salaries. There is no way to check. "They do not trust the salary" Any one who makes an inquiry regarding their salary faces victimization and may forfeit a command or be terminated.
- "General staff do not respect pilot positions". It is felt pilots have very low status in Top Management philosophy.
- "There is no team spirit”.
- BPA Crew members are aware of BPA's problems. However, if they go to management to make a suggestion there is fear of termination or suspension of promotion. A suggestion is seen as an insult to the management and dealt with swiftly. It sends a clear signal to others with the same idea. The “spy” concept is well identified in BPA. It contributes to a very bad image of the Top Management
- "BPA procedures are not Boeing standard." Each Captain wants a different procedure.
- If a crew member has good flying skills it does not mean that he should be made a Captain. Captains in today's cockpits are "Managers" and as such it takes many years as a FO to develop these management skills. There is no substitute for experience. This process typically takes 10 years on various aircraft types, operating in a good training environment, with good Captains as role models, to be achieved.
- BPA Crew want a democratic system of seniority that involves date of hire and competence.
- The upgrade system is dishonest and unfair. First Officers can suddenly find their career comes to a halt for no apparent reason. They say there may be a secret reporting system and they are too afraid to ask why their promotion has been stopped.
- Employees say we work for "Blue Panorama" and do not say "our company". The employees themselves do no see themselves as part of the company. The morale is low and they do not feel proud of it.
- Crew feel being over worked with inadequate rest and inadequate salaries

5. The quality of the BPA hotels for the crew has constantly been dropping over the past year. This has now reached a stage that adequate rest can no longer be taken before a scheduled international departure, so flight safety will be an issue here (Male for example).

6. There is a low level of airline aviation knowledge in certain areas of the company. These areas include check list philosophy, altitude capability (coffin corner), pilot incapacitation, wind shear, instrument approaches, flight planning, Category 2/3 training, high speed flight, instructional technique and principles of flight to mention just some. To solve this, management must select candidates and send them overseas for training at internationally recognized training establishments. They will be trained correctly to international standards and must return with the correct information to set up courses here. This is the core of the training department.(These courses must be attended every year so the company does not fall behind). This information must all be coordinated through the Chief Pilot in charge of training through the respective Fleet Captains in charge of training. The goal being that ALL instructors teach the correct thing the same way. Without international exposure to stimulate lateral thinking on these problems, a good solution is unlikely to be found. The current technique of deciding policy amongst each other inside the company has not produced positive results.

7. Foreign crews do not trust the BPA management with respect to contracts. That’s one of the reasons why 33 B767 pilots left the company for the last 2 years…

8. Any time crew are traveling as extra crew while on duty, they are not revenue producing and are costing the company money. A quick check of the ratio of actual hours flown to extra crew hours flown will prove that this is a highly costly and inefficient method of crew scheduling.

9. Crew with low time should be flying on the domestic to develop handling skills. Crews sent directly to the long range fleet will not gain the flying experience necessary to develop as airline pilots. Command time in most national carriers is typically about 10 years with crew having obtained both long and short haul experience as FO's before obtaining a short haul command.

10. It is imperative that the BPA training staff visit the training departments of other airlines. This will enable them to see how other airlines do their training. The networking established helps keep training standards up to date.

11. Crew who make positive contributions to the company do not have their contributions acknowledged, and are shown no gratitude for it for it.

12. Management are quick to condemn any crew member for any unusual situation/incident and take quick and harsh, some times career destroying action before analyzing all the facts. Crews are generally afraid to do a go around or diversion as management may see this as a shame or embarrassment to the company. This is despite the fact that the crew member performed entirely professionally and appropriately. They may face disciplinary action.

13. Management is currently reactive with many situations and problems. A proactive approach will avoid problems by anticipating them and making the appropriate policy decisions to ensure they are correctly managed. It is not appropriate to apportion blame to an individual immediately, as there may be other causes of the problem. All problems must be evaluated. It may indeed have been as a result of a management or training problem that manifests itself in an incident/accident. An "open door policy" by management is the path to take for a free flow of information and it must know that management will not "shoot the messenger".


None of the aforementioned statements are intended to be disrespectful or antagonistic to the BPA management. They are real facts and perception expressed by the crew in the hope of opening up communications. People trust that they will be seen as open and honest, and taken in the context of trying to make Blue Panorama a better company.

All BPA Aircrew have the company's best interest at heart and wish to see BPA as quality, International player.

I have witnessed the incident reported in LRM and I can tell you that the captain (I was flying with) has been conscientious and professional.
During the rwy backtrack Left CDU & FMC became INOP. After having checked breakers and so, the captain decided to go back to the parking spot. Lauda Air Italy mechanicians re-racked the CDU and did some work in the E/E. The CDU & FMC were again operative a this stage. We backtracked again the rwy and observed the same problem with the CDU & the FMC. We taxied back to the apron : you can imagine the reaction of the passengers... The captain decided the disembarkation of the pax after having checked the MEL ("Flight authorised for non ER ops"). We went to the Rep Office and the captain called the BPA dispatch in Rome.
As they are all bad and incompetent in ETOPS and so, my colleague spent 20 minutes to explain what he was expecting : a new flight plan with a 60' rule (ETOPS 138' was not possible anymore), accurate weather support (because of the bad weather all over Canada & Greenland), a letter of the DO stating that the crew was allowed to exceed the flight duty time of 17 h because of an exceptional situation (we had to position by bus before the flight from Punta Cana to La Romana). After 55 minutes, we received a new flight plan of 11h54' (flight time) with enormous mistakes (too numerous to be explained here) but no letter according the flight duty time exceedance. My colleague wait another 30 minutes and had no answer except : "you have to make the flight. That's it!". He decided to take a minimum rest of 8 h to have a new full duty time of 17 h. It was a good decision. We checked that the passengers were able to get an hotel accomodation and left for he hotel. In the middle of the night, my colleague received a fax stating : "you are fired...you are not responsible of the crew anymore...you are allowed to jummpseat with your ID card..." : my fellow colleague was stucked in La Romana at his own expense.
As I showed solidarity for my colleague (I refused to be rostered on the way back), they tried also to kick my ass. They called the inbound crew and again the french FO refused the flight atrguing that he would not let a colleague stucked in LRM.
After hours of negociation with "Benito" Pecci, BPA accepted the captain on the flight.

Incredible story but true story. And this is not the only one.
Did you hear the story of this BPA italian crew who departed Havana for Milan with no MCP at all (no Autopilot, no autothrottle, no flight director, no roll mode). Nice night flight at FL330 over the Atlantic!!!!!
Did you know that refueling with one engine turning (and....pax on board:uhoh: ) happened in Cayo Largo or Cayo Coco in December & January???
Didi you know that transportation of illegal materials (dangerous goods) happened between Cuba & Italy thanks to BPA???
Trust me...Blue Panorama is a real den for incompetents and nuts people. Some of the italian captains are so dangerous that expat pilots did exhaustive reports to their respective CAA.
Do you remember Flash Airlines?

16th Mar 2004, 21:36
I thought God was Congolese,
but luckily he's Italian too...

:yuk: :(

16th Mar 2004, 23:36
I take it that the Italian authorities are waiting for a disaster to happen before they take action. Well they can always claim they didn’t know anything about it…not

17th Mar 2004, 08:34
I know that some french & belgian B767 pilots (still in contract) have already contacted their respective CAAs to reveal the "Blue Panorama Scandal".:ok:

The report is 100000% true: that's why the author (same captain involved in the LRM affair) has been fired. The same day, 2 other captains have been fired by Palma (nicknamed PUPPET or YESMAN) and by the hand of Adolf Benito Pecci. These 3 captains said aloud what everybody was thinking silently.

Few Cloudy
17th Mar 2004, 11:33
How big is this operation? It needs a stick between the legs. (To trip over, before any misunderstandings happen).

Funnel Cloud
17th Mar 2004, 15:16
I was actually hoping that the recent Linate accident report would open the eyes of the authorities. Something needs to be done in Italy, it's not a safety structure.

Jump Complete
18th Mar 2004, 12:35
This audit sounds very like the one on the Korean B747 Classic fleet a few years back. Many of the same phrases are in there. The same basic issue of crews being threatened by managment if they try to make a good airmanship decision that might cost a few pennies.
I have to admit, when I read the Korean audit I partly put it down to the culture of that part of the world. It appears that is misguided here is a western airline with exactly the same attitudes and problems.

18th Mar 2004, 19:56
Good show HotSpot, in your detailed list you mentioned dangerous goods...........

..... DANGEROUS GOODS .....!?

why should Blue Panorama need to get approval to carry dangerous good ?
Blue Panorama does not need that kind of certification.

WHY NOT ?...........

BECAUSE Blue Panorama ALREADY carries Dangerous Goods on its planes on a regular basis without informing its crews.

In BPA the Commander is never provided with a written information according to the Technical Instructions about the dangerous goods carried on the flight (NOTOC), dangerous goods that should not be there in the first place.

Thats how BPA gets away with it.

Sources in MXP reported that some docs related to those shipments have been leaked to the FAA for investigation.
The above flights are out of Havana and have interested the US airspace ....

Velemax, tell us its not true .... please.

22nd Mar 2004, 10:31
But.. I wonder why none of you have never denounced these facts, even ANONYMOUSLY, to the Italian Aviation Authority..
Do you know ENAC, for own policy, cannot ignore it?

23rd Mar 2004, 12:48
Dear Engavia, we are talking big connections here.

Blue Panorama alias Pecci even managed, during the JAR-OPS certification by ENAC, to have a special organisation chart approved.

Blue Panorama's organisation chart, just like everybody else, has:

Flight Operations PH
Training PH
Maintenance PH
Ground Operations PH

but then ENAC gives a bonus:


Why do they need it????????????? what is it for ????????????
Operations coordination belongs to the F.O. PH.

well, to me it appears like a gross violation of the JAR-OPS that clearly wants to avoid, for safety sake, any direct intrusion of Pecci style Accountable Managers/owner into operations.

"do what I say or You are fired" .... this subject started because it did happen.

Let me know if the above PH has been introduced in other airlines,

Blue Panorama
30th Mar 2004, 21:50
While I don't agree with every item in the so called audit, one thing is irrefutable, BPA is an accident waiting to happen.

The mention of a Capt being sacked because his descision was not politically correct is not entirely true. Despite being offered a permanent contract, 3 days before the temporary one was due to finish, the offer was withdrawn. I understand he diverted twice and on both occaisions was told his descision did not agree with what he had been instructed to do by Mr Pecci. The manner in which it was done was very underhand and left the Capt with no form of recourse.

There have been other previous postings on the subject of BPA safety but they have been removed very quickly by moderators for whatever reason. The above mentioned Capt was accused of writing one posting while he was enroute from Italy to his home country. It was removed before he had a chance to see what he had allegedly written and respond accordingly.

Good luck to all those who remain with BPA but my words to you are, the grass is very definitely greener elsewhere. I am glad I got out before another incident caused a hull loss and my job loss.

31st Mar 2004, 13:13
I do agree with you: A MAJOR ACCIDENT WILL HAPPEN SOON AT BLUE PANORAMA. There is unfortunately no alternative to the Pecci 's crazy dictatorship. The ex-BPA DO (another very good guy) left for Lauda Italy for the same reasons than those expressed by many pilots : BPA airmanship is far away from the basics and Pecci's shadow is everywhere. :\

vroum vroum 13
1st Apr 2004, 14:49
Flight Operations PH
Training PH
Maintenance PH
Ground Operations PH

In this "airline" (?) the Flight Operations PH and the Training Manager PH are the same man (Cl. P), his surmame is yesman...

How can the ENAC accept this? Is it authorized by JAR?

In those cases I am happy to see that JAA take time to accept them in the JAR club.
Perhaps can we ask to M. Pecci the use of his 2 turboprop aircrafts???and how many free tickets are given to BKK and HAB???

Can you imagine to be in line taining without any paper support?
This is BPA reality:ok:
Can you imagine taking rest time (for flight more than 13h) on the flor in the cockpit
This is BPA reality :ok:

The problem with this airline is that most of the captains dosn't understand how their get this place and are so happy to be here...

Be careful and take care

What about the last "audit" of ENAC and Alitalia???

2nd Apr 2004, 13:47
Pecci,Soddu and now, the dirty tricks brigade in Lauda/Livingstone(sign this new contract or fail your check,your choice)! All this is and more, is the reality of Italian aviation today.I think all of us in Italy know who we have to thank, VS! Take it or leave it because, with the total lack of interest in public safety, the governing authorities in Italy are going to sit back and do nothing. But is this only true of Italy? Some very disturbing stories coming out of some british low cost operators as well regarding pilot quality, and important post holders too!

3rd Apr 2004, 09:15
In Windjet,the same:FOPH and Trng PH is the same person,he is over 60, doesn't fly,has retired flying MD-11.The result: pilots fly with licences expired, captain without captain's course completed, training captain grounded after a recent incident,etc,etc...
What is ENAC doing:instead of making sure that the house is put in order they help the circus to go on.Why? Have a guess.
Welcome to JAR family!

4th Apr 2004, 01:32
Please do not take offence over this but my engineering experiences in the asiatic and the two Romes in particular lead me to believe that we are talking third world standards - and where the euros from the EU disappear to I couldn`t guess !

4th Apr 2004, 14:07
You are 100% right Vroum Vroum 13. I know a lot of pilots resting on the 767 floor instead of taking advantage of the business class. I always refused to do this : not a puppet!
Lot of pilots not at a standard level and so many captains with NO airmanship: usual Blue Panorama "combinazione"with Pecci's friends!!!! Palma (Chief Pilot, DO, etc, etc.) will have one day to answer to some embarrassing questions. No doubt!!!!!!!!

4th Apr 2004, 18:54
WOW!!! Looks like all of you are just wishing for the accident to happen....even those of you who are still working there!! :yuk: :mad:

6th Apr 2004, 21:55
BPA has just fired two other B767 expat captains!!! yuk: Apparently one of them complained about the "combinazione" with the rest time. (they always try to f...*** you with your days off). The other captain was sick when he received the letter from BPA. International court action is in progress with ex-B767 pilots. Will let you know...:E

7th Apr 2004, 10:01
Not surprised that 2 guys are again fired! It makes a total of 46 pilots out of Blue Panorama in less of 22 months. A world record?
Also been officially informed that British, Belgian and French CAAs are now aware of some "BPA combinazione". They should give some paperwork to the ENAC (Italian CAA) in the next few days.:O

7th Apr 2004, 19:37
well well...seems that this time their Godfather at ENAC will have to be more creative than ever...

8th Apr 2004, 12:47
With the actual number of employed pilots, if flight time limitations were to be enforced, BPA would not be able to operate all of its flights.
ENAC should verify how BPA manages to operate his flights and may be, may be...., they will find out that three crew flights are operated by two pilots only.
Rotations such as HAV-SCU-FCO-MXP are scheduled at 16.50 hours although they always end up well over 17 hours duty.

Probably some p.s. by ENAC entitles BPA not to consider transit times.

9th Apr 2004, 08:16
Same problem for flights out of BKK!! The duty time is an abstract consideration for the BPA management... By the way, do you know the salary of a B767 relief pilot at BPA? 700 Euros! Yes my friends : SEVEN HUNDRED EUROS!!! Less than a chief purser : an incredible "great" income for the "third man" of the flight deck. This is not unrelated to the lack of motivation of many pilots.

12th Apr 2004, 13:33
Apparently, Palma has just brought a contribution to the Blue Panorama Zero Consideration (BPZC): conducted again a refueling with engine turning in Cuba (don't know yet if passengers were on board or not). Nice shot for a chief pilot & DO, isn'it?
What is the ENAC waiting for?:E

12th Apr 2004, 15:59
12/04/2004 - 15:52 www.guidaviaggi.it

Blue Panorama achieves TRTO certification.

Important achievement from ENAC to Blue Panorama: the airline has received the TRTO certification and is therefore authorized to qualify pilots in and out of the airline on its own aircraft.
The TRTO certification has been released at the end of a long process lasted 9 months, during which the ENAC Inspectors have been able to verify quality and technical standards of Blue Panorama.
In particular, the certification achieved will authorize Blue Panorama to qualify pilots on B737, 757 and 767, in addition to perform courses for Flight Attendants, CRM, Low Visibility, MNPS, RNAV, RVSM, ETOPS

:\ :uhoh: :sad: :yuk: :}

12th Apr 2004, 16:56
you see techlog,
never underestimate ENAC: they will exceed your wildest expectations!:E

12th Apr 2004, 17:29
I strongly suggest they buid a shrine at the Blue Panorama headquarters: having achieved the TRTO thing when any pilot with some credibility has left the ship is nothing less than a miracle...or maybe it's the ENAC guys that should pay Lourdes a visit, given that they have all become deaf and blind??? :yuk:

12th Apr 2004, 19:47
I protest techlog! Pistols at dawn old boy,or girl?

vroum vroum 13
13th Apr 2004, 08:54
let me know, who is the TRTO Head of Training post holder? CP...?
JAA request two different names when an airline hold a TRTO ... it is a mandatory!(OPS/FCL)
But no problemo for blue banana, right that with a TRTO agreement they can do what they want how they want (fast with no cost...), and at the end with only one italian TRE from the airline(!)
But last question how can an italian course have a FCL TRTO agreement, Italia is NOT JAR-FCL ....
Be careful guys when you will back to GB,F, or D with your "Pecci cheap paper", this is not FCL....

13th Apr 2004, 14:36
Hey guys... I am just...UPSIDE DOWN!!!!!!
Blue Panorama acting now as TRTO is not less that a BIG, BIG, BIG JOKE. I would like to know what level of corruption is attached to such a delirious decision. I've been flying less than 5 months in this garbage called Blue Panorama and I can tell U that I've never seen so many violations in such a little time.
Flying beyond the decision point with less than the mandatory fuel amount, refueling with one engine turning in Cuba (Cayo Largo was a nice spot), never considering the MEL (some well known italian captains once again) was a national sport in Blue Panorama.

Unfortunately I do agree with all of U : There will one day one 767 crashed somewhere. Sad but too many donkeys...:E

14th Apr 2004, 10:10
Hi,it took me a while to realise that we,BPA's pilots,are a bunch of
incompetents.Thanks to this audit we all know now that pilots from England,Belgium,France,Italy(ex-BA,City Bird,Sobelair,Sabena,Air Europe etc)are lousy guys.But to save us from chaos our dear Mr P.hired the best french pilots around(pleonasm?)and after only three months,he fired almost all of them.I really don't understand this guy, matter of fact i've decided to resign and not fly again ever.I hope this post's gonna open the eyes of my fellow collegues,it's time for us to learn how to fly an airplane properly(without the french we are nothing)
all my apologies for what i've written before,i was on the wrong path

14th Apr 2004, 12:57
Hi Velemax
Sorry for your bruised national ego, but my observation doesn’t concern all the Italian pilots of Blue Panorama. I met also a minority of professional pilots with a standard airmanship. Unfortunately, these good guys are surrounded by a real army of incompetents. Breaking of rules is so usual in Blue Panorama that it is not surprising that 99% of the expats already left the company. And this is not only a “frenchie” question, neither a british nor a Belgian one. Face it: the way of doing aviation in Blue Panorama is simply unfair and the dishonesty of P…i’s methods is proven.
The bad reputation of Blue Panorama is not only known out of Italy but also in your own country. In the opinion of most Alitalia / Eurofly / Lauda Italy / Livingstone / Volare pilots, Blue Panorama is identified as a cheat with no respect for the elementary rules: can you affirm that the MEL is not an abstract consideration in the day to day operations? Can you affirm that refuelling with one engine turning in Cayo Largo (not only once) is a legal procedure? Can you affirm that Blue Panorama didn’t carry illegal materials from Cuba to Italy? Can you affirm that ETOPS fundamentals are respected? Can you affirm that CP doesn’t encourage a form of “omerta”? The list of unfair methods is endless and penalizes the respectful airlines.
I was already out of Blue Panorama when I read a copy of the unofficial audit written by some expat captains. But I must admit that most of the statements were entirely true. My Blue Panorama experience reminds me another experience in Africa, but… 25 years ago! I am now happy to fly in a respectful British established charter airline. Believe me or not, when the DO interviewed me, he noticed my brief stay in BPA and said : "hmmm...Blue Panorama..what a bad reputation these people have!".

From Belgium.

14th Apr 2004, 19:11
Thank you Carpediem for the minority of standard pilots.Anyway digging in BPA's dustbin i've find out a disturbing news:U.S. could'nt find WMD's in Irak because Mr P. brought them to Cuba via Tripoli(we were based there)Now all the saddam's scuds are pointing coconut's groove!!!INCREDIBLE but true(it's written on pprune,so!)also Bin laden and Saddam(the real one not the one we saw on tv)flew on bizness(blue class)to Cuba,they've started a rock band !!!with Fidel himself!! covering ZZTOP's greatest hits.
Mr P. getting sick of aviation wants to managed them.a world tour to follow check out the dates on pprune

14th Apr 2004, 19:30
Velemax, take a holiday..... if of course turni will let you!!!!!
Regarding the crime of refuelling with an engine running believe it or believe it not it has been an approved procedure in Italy, obviously without pax on board and with many other requirements. I am surprised because I had never even considered a situation were one would be pressed to do such a thing but guys, if you want to shoot someone then shoot the rulemakers!!!! On this subject lets hear from other operators if they have such a procedure to allow them to escape if transiting an airfield with no ASU and the APU fails to start on landing!!!!
Many of the problems talked about on this thread stem from the complacency of ENAC-Civilavia regarding the existing rules of flight time limitations and general operating procedures.
What I will say is that after 17 hours of duty it is hard for the average pilot to put up a good performance even if the aircraft is operating normally. If you do not have good operating fundamentals then the old cocoon of safety that surrounds us all wears perilously thin on your 3rd. landing and this is when I get veery angree at MXP approach control for unco-ordinated high speed-low speed and 35L , brief, no no 35R rebrief with opposing GA procedures!!!!
Sleep well gentleman....and Na..., Nat.... and Ca...werever you are now, for tomorrow we have to do it all over again..... and the CBs are building over Cuba.....
Keep YOUR cockpit a safe place.

14th Apr 2004, 20:38
Hi Zingaro
Just checked in the BPA manuals : not mentioned that refueling with one engine turning is permitted (I know that everything is permitted or so in Italy, but...). Even JARs do not consider this opportunity for the 767. If you have further details, let's go.
Say hello to Fidel!

From Belgium.

15th Apr 2004, 08:43
Was a procedure in the Air Europe Italy ops manual in 1990. Do not know if it came from Air Europe UK.
Seems mighty strange procedure to me but may be less risky than having a ramp agent or engineer near aircraft with cellphone switched on whilst refuelling!!!

15th Apr 2004, 12:49
Seems as though it may be the case that only in France is it regarded as a crime!
Now thats a strange thing is it not!!!!

16th Apr 2004, 08:47
Was a procedure in the Air Europe Italy ops manual in 1990. Do not know if it came from Air Europe UK.Seems mighty strange procedure to me but may be less risky than having a ramp agent or engineer near aircraft with cellphone switched on whilst refuelling!!!

In 1990, there was no JAR-OPS. I flew the 767 in the UK around 1991 and there was no agreement for any refueling with one engine turning...
There is after all one thing to admit : as many people already wrote it in this topic, there is no real safety concerns in Blue Panorama. Too bad.

Doors to Automatic
16th Apr 2004, 15:14
"There is zero maintenance done during the busy summer season, we flew a whole season with a leaking centre fuel tank which Boeing told us not to use."

"Two of the captains there were scared of flying (I know this is getting unbelievable now but I kid you not)......One just lived terrified the other got around the problem by turning up drunk, Not having had a drink mind you but drunk. I noticed this on a MXP-SSH trip with the leaking tank and he sobered up over Athens, left the flight deck for about thirty minutes to top up."

"Some crew believe it is "not possible to get windshear if there are no mountains" despite thunderstorms in the vicinity."

This airline beggars belief!!!!!!! I am amazed this sort of thing is allowed to happen within the EU. Words fail me!!!!

16th Apr 2004, 22:36
Cannot comment on the 737 shorthaul operation but the 767 longhaul operation continues with the senior captains,with thousands of hours of worldwide longhaul experience trying to maintain standards.
What is now p****g us all off bigtime are the inflammatory and mostly inaccurate and unhelpful posts from a group of expat pilots,who were given employment when they had none, and now, having parted company are trying to sink that ship and all who sail in it.Well done guys, you do your nation proud.
Most of your shots should be aimed at the Italian governing authority who allow such absurd flight time limitations,private deals between flight ops inspectors and their companies and indeed the present Italian government.
Go and bite the hand of someone else and let us try and improve our lot, but dont take that arrogant stance of condemning just because things are not done the perfect french way.
No offence meant.
B.T.W. understand BA has procedure for engine-running refuelling at this present time but then, we are not quite as expert as you on JAR Ops so maybe you should inform BA that they are breaking the French law.

17th Apr 2004, 12:31
Review your geography Zingaro. Belgium is not a french condominium... Proud to be Belgian and happy to be out of your italian "business".
Take care.

From Brussels (BELGIUM)

17th Apr 2004, 14:58
Good point Mr. Diem but you do share a common border.
I am happy for you that you are out of it all.
My point is that the point has been clearly made that BPA has problems that still need to be addressed. Statements on a public forum suggesting that aircraft will fall out of the sky if they have BPA written on the side are stupid and serve to help no-one.
Unemployed pilots, mainly from 2 companies that failed i.e. Aeris and Sobelair, have waged a 2 month long attack on a company that gave them work. That company(at least the longhaul part) was formed in a very short period by some very good refugee pilots fleeing Mr. Soddu and the failing Volare regime. Most of those original pilots, ex Air Europe Italy, left due to the difficulty of acheiving progress with the present management structure,leaving much work still unfinished.
Now, let those pilots that remain try to effect the changes that still need to be made. Go and be happy with the money that BPA paid you while you had no other offer of employment and,in one years time, write to us all and let us know of the nirvana that you have found.
Genuine good luck wish to everyone who has left for pastures new.

17th Apr 2004, 15:41
Dear Zingaro,

Just some pieces of advise.

Sorry to see you alone on this, but the issue is about SAFETY and nationality has nothing to do with it.

767 longhaul operation continues with the senior captains,with thousands of hours of worldwide longhaul experience trying to maintain standards.

it is of my knowledge that most of the above captains are "expat" as well and many of the posts on safety violations are by italian pilots.

"Trying to maintain" does not have the same meaning of "maintaining".
"Trying to maintain" was what most former BPA pilots were doing with safety standards.
Although not an "expat" and although "trying to maintain standards" I left BPA because Safety is not an option.

"absurd" and "arrogant" shold be better addressed

17th Apr 2004, 15:46
Why hasn't anybody let the journos know about this airline ? Apparently, no other airline in Italy seems to be conducting operations in such an atrocious manner.

Should a big "problem" occur in the future, apart from casualties, it will just be another boring TV story of procedures not being abid by because of pressures on pilots, tech logs considered as toilet paper. Witnesses being called in and questionned by the police. Prison for some. Networks spreading outside the airline's bounderies...etc..Very Italian.

Anyhow, I already know I will never embark on BPA ships and will tell my friends not to either. GOD !!!! You simply don't fly with a leaking fuel pump !

17th Apr 2004, 18:23
With yet another serious allegation on this forum could you please give some details.Might be a good idea to check out the facts,then consult the B767 MEL.
This forum seems to be surpassing the attack on Volare a few years ago.They must be breathing a sigh of relief because I am sure they have not changed one little bitty bit.
What I suspect is that Mr. President is enjoying all the attention.

18th Apr 2004, 09:06
Zingaro, all I do is read posts on this forum and I get scared. I simply guess people haven't made these stories up. Also, attacks sound very much tuned on Italian management rather than on fellow international colleagues.

vroum vroum 13
19th Apr 2004, 08:12
Perhaps can we ask to Zingaro why the SENIOR captains still in Blue Panorama:
- cross atlantic at night with MCP inop (RVSM approved ???)
- fly with speedbrakes deployed at FL 310 on a two legs trip because THE captain made a big mistake with the MLW calculation.. incredible but true!

Don't worry : italian line training captains ...
take care:ok:

19th Apr 2004, 13:20
All I can say is that none of these things have ever happened on my flightdeck and never will. I have input in the past regarding who should be flying etc.
What I wish to say yet again is my present contempt for the continuing attacks on BPA.
You are helping no-one believe me.
However, as I realise from the history of this thread, we are going to go on hearing more tails from pissed-off pilots.
Carry on guys,without any more comment from me.
Instead of firing off on this thread why dont you use the energy on some community work.
Safe flying to all of you.

24th Apr 2004, 13:00
The topic was started not for the fun of attacking Blue Panorama on days off, but because a very dangerous lack of safety has been detected in an abnormally high number of situations.
Many pilots, have confirmed that Blue Panorama is operating under the influence (o.u.i.) of a person that, as sole owner, is blatantly setting is own rules in spite of all regulations.

The Forum is trying to make it a safer place for those that still have to fly with BPA including the unaware passengers and Zingaro.

12th Jun 2004, 12:30
So, what's the score? Pecci wins again?

Yaw String
12th Jun 2004, 17:51
He has won on everything up to now!

Frosty Hoar
13th Jun 2004, 03:02
Suprised that this kind of operation would be allowed in European airspace,I guess this is not the end of the story...

13th Jun 2004, 23:18
As a wannabe thank god for Prune. It opens my eyes to another airline I would rather earn stars in McDonalds than fly for.

Thanks for all those who have posted about them, obviously I don't take prune as gospel but its a good feeding ground to start digging and the hole this thread has created is well la.a.........a...r...g....ee (in echo voice)

14th Jun 2004, 14:50
After reading this I think the "model of Reason" can be made up in the near future :(

16th Jun 2004, 22:35
Blue Banana was, and is, a good opportunity to upgrade to nice airplanes for quite a few guys.

Just bring along a LOT of vaseline.

8th Jul 2004, 17:26
On today's italian newspapers:


Blue Panorama will be Boeing 7E7 european launch customer.

500 millions USD, 4 aircrafts ....


I hope Boeing does a thorough background check on BPA before allowing the two names to appear linked together.

Boeing, Wake up! this Forum is for You too.


17th Jul 2004, 08:59
Pecci to sack the by Soddu already sacked Capt. in the latest Blue banana scare? How come this "ex-Frecce Tricolori" ace had to leave Volare group, be unemployed for months and then join BP? Maybe best he didn't make it to HAV, might have ended up like another BP flight to HAV not so long ago.....
Italian way of doing things at work again.

17th Jul 2004, 09:24
You bet? After the 767 emergency landing in FCO, some smart people should find interesting details concerning the maintenance records of the airplane. Blue Panorama "combinazione" as usual!!:yuk:

Yaw String
17th Jul 2004, 20:42
I hate Soddu. I would imagine every professional pilot in Italy feels the same.Just imagine, a man who is alleged to have delayed the arrival of emergency turn data for the A320 from Swissair until more than 6 months of operations have past just to save money!!! or some other worthless reason!!! And that is just one of many SERIOUS allegations!To be sacked by him almost certainly means this pilot has balls, which seem to be lacking amongst our fraternity. He did a fine job with an engine fire that could not be confirmed to have been extinguished, am sure he had the return runway in route 2 of FMC and will have briefed his co-pilot for just this kind of eventuality. Made more easy due good weather.
At max landing weight (145149)B767 is designed to take touchdown vertical velocity of 10 fps or 600'/min., at max structual(186880) 6 fps or 360'/min. No time to dump fuel if fire not out just get back to threshold, land and evacuate
He will be debriefed and in this case most certainly commended and the results of enquiry will be used for training purposes.
Mr. Pecci will not be sacking anyone, at least not today!!!!!!
Forget the seeds of doubt, at least over this issue please.;) ;) ;) ;)

18th Jul 2004, 09:59
So, what was/is ENAC doing when Soddus, Peccis and alike were/are "managing" italian airlines?
Soddu was the "Amministratore Delegato" (GM) of the first airline to have been grounded for safety concerns in Italy (Alpy Eagles), so some years down the line he is "running" Volare group in his old fashion. Nice, I guess he'll run Alitalia tomorrow.
The strongest stink comes from Rome but this is no news.
Long live european unity and the rest.....

25th Jul 2004, 17:07
Dear Geeny
looks to me like you have a bug up your ass and probably are not aware of it.
Let's start from the beginning: I know personally this guy and believe me, you should wash your mouth before you ever talk about him again. He was the union representative in Air Europe, and stood up for his colleagues until he was fired by Soddu. He then spent 6 months unemployed because the abovementioned individual badmouthed him around. Finally he was employed by Mr. Pecci on 767s. He had the mother of all emergencies on a max t/o weight aircraft, handled it by the book and saved the day (and the passengers). I honestly think he will be commended on his performance, but I'm sure he doesn't care. Trouble is, pilots only ever get one chance in life to prove how good they are... I hope yours never comes, because by reading your posts I seriously doubt you will be up to it.
Ah, by the way, he really was an ace in the Frecce Tricolori... does that make you envious?!?

29th Jul 2004, 20:35
Being a former "frecce tricolori" could mean anything. Many in the now "former" management of Volare and others have been great acrobatic pilots but, unfortunately, have kept a single pilot attitude and in all their actions have to stand taller than the "standard" pilot community ...... very very dangerous:yuk:

Others have realized that "standard" has a safety meaning in commercial aviation and have changed their attitude to become nice guys to fly with and learn from.

The emergency in FCO was very well handled and thanks God THAT Captain was in charge. Not many other in BPA would have done as well.

On the other side that engine has been troubled for a while gulping up to 5 qtsof oil, but ... who cares the 7E7 is on its way

Yaw String
29th Jul 2004, 22:29
Define "quite a while"! The engine that burst into flames was the new one, fitted by Delta just a short time ago. They also replaced the fuel manifold system at the same time.
Whoever is found to have been at fault will pay heavily I fear!!!

White Kite
30th Jul 2004, 07:22
There's maybe a link with the fact that 4 out of 8 engineers (the senior ones...) had resigned some time before the accident? The resignation rate seems quite high in Blue Panorama.

Henry VIII
30th Jul 2004, 20:24
At the moment Pecci is winning again.
Because for similar situations East African Safari is banned to fly in Italy, and BPA continues as usual !!!


31st Jul 2004, 15:21
The engine that blew up was indeed the new one, had never given any trouble and it looks like it was indeed the high pressure fuel manifold that sprayed lots of fuel inside the cowling. I have never believed in coincidences, and I smell a rat when two 767 engines blow up in an absolutely similar way less tan two weeks apart, in the same airport. High pressure fuel lines don't just rupture like that!
For Planoramix: te guy is far from being a "primadonna" like many of his former colleagues. Friendly and helpful in te cockpit, never been a hotshot the "Molinaro" style!!!

1st Aug 2004, 09:15
seems that many " ACE " of Trecce Fricolori ( OO sorry frecce tricolori ) Volare start to leave the company for a new one !!!

a part of that .... what is exactly ACE ???? is a drink ????

6th Aug 2004, 16:30
They have not "started to leave the company" !!!
They have been kicked out of the company, as should have happened a long time ago!!!
Bunch of losers and dishonests, destroyed a perfectly good airline (Air Europe).
But here we are again: Italian authorities will let them open-up another airline, populated with the same ridiculous characters that were in Volare.....
A useless Manager, a bunch of brown nosers following him, all believing to be hotshots and God's gift to the aviation community.
Want to bet it will be yet another scam?
Time will tell (hopefully not too long):(

Yaw String
7th Aug 2004, 08:46
Could not agree more.
What about all the pending allegations against Soddu. Is he still managing to stay above and beyond the Italian legal system.
All other Italian company directors should take note- oops, I was forgetting Parmalat!

8th Aug 2004, 15:38
Well seems that we miss the point of the argoument :
Blue Panorama !!!!
Any news?????

13th Aug 2004, 11:04
nobullshit and others,
I think highly of the pilot's abilities of the captain involved (we have spent a great number of hours together in the cockpit), him being my F/O. If you did your homework properly you might have learnt what would be the bug you refer to, before attacking me. I am not envious of not making it to the Frecce: might have met Soddu and alike there, might have been killed at some airshow, might have been treated like the captain in question. I am not Italian but I have had my share of flying inverted and I think this doesn't qualify me as a good captain. Maybe being a TRE qualifies me to comment on the sorry state of the affairs in the italian commercial aviation. Would you care to comment, nobullshit (after having washed your mouth)? Don't forget to mention Pecci, Soddu, FTL, Ustica, Linate etc (the list is long..)


13th Aug 2004, 11:34
Erm.... I've just skimmed through this topic while having lunch at work and this sounds pretty alarming to me. Drivers that are forced to fly birds that had 'illegal' reparis? And pprune members that predict an accident is due?

I mean, shouldn't the authorities take action before we have another big headline in the news?

Just thinking...

20th Aug 2004, 12:47
Latest news:
Looks like the fire originated from a return high pressure flexible pipe. Apparently it was installed by Delta (they overhauled the engine) in the wrong way, allowing it to torque. The problem was not visible, as there was a plastic sleeve covering the pipe.
It started leaking during taxi, and lots of fuel collected in the lower part of the cowling. At T/O power, and the extremely high pressure associated, the pipe sprayed serious quantities of fuel around te cowling. Te fuel, now nebulized, ignited and exploded. This happened, like in everybody's worst nightmare, at V1. Handling pilot was the F/O, with very few hours on his back. Capt. decided to continue, aware of the 186800 kgs following him. Engine still gave thrust, gear was raised immediately, ENG FIRE recall items at 400' but fire still there. After both bottles emptied fire would not go out. Capt took control, decided to do a 90/270 to get back to Rwy 34L, so the fire would be downwind from the plane. Kept flaps 5, finished QRH, talked to passengers, advised crew of likely evacuation when on ground because of a right engine fire and possible gear fire. Landed from a visual, flaps 20, single engine, Vref 179 Kts, 186 tons, pax screaming their heads off. Smooth touch down, max braking, one reverser actuated, stopped just after the intersection with 07/25.
When stopped, fire indication still on. Evacuated the 273 pax in 80 seconds, not a single broken leg. Capt. left the plane via the rear left door as advertised. Firefighters put out the fire, still working its way thru hydraulics, electrics and oil. Total time in the air just over 4 mins, max altitude reached 1400'.

16th Aug 2005, 20:52

I'm not a pilot, nor an expert, but following some bad news in some forum I wanted to check out and I finally came to read the thread "fired while on duty" (2004). I have to admit this kind of scares me, because I had planned to fly with Blue Panorama in a couple of weeks...does anybody have any news on BPA? Has the safety related situation changed someway?

Waiting for some comments...

21st Aug 2005, 11:59
The Italians should not be taken seriously when it comes to prfessional practise the place is rampent with corruption and sleeze.Its a commaon find amongst Med.countries.At least the crew walked away to fly another day.

21st Aug 2005, 13:01
nobullshit - it seems appropriate from your post to pass on a large 'well done' to the flight deck and c/crew on that flight. Very nice handling as described.

6th Sep 2005, 17:46
In light of the latest Pec*i vs UP may we expect more fired while on duty moves? Alternatively, would the President join the President Fazio on the road to nowhere together with the whole country.

9th Sep 2005, 14:39
All I know is that I would never fly for any airline that cuts corners. It is the pilots desperate for jobs who make such airlines exist.

10th Sep 2005, 16:34
Sorry, no changes! Try another operator quick!

11th Sep 2005, 10:10
Hi all , that is disgraceful to hear about crews being fired over what is in fact a safety issue . I have contracted for a number of years now and I have to say that I found operators in the southern part of Europe shameless . Iam now working for a well established UK operator , and it really is a breath of fresh air .
It looks like the french are going to go ahead with publishing a list of 'rogue carriers' , this will hopefully put manners on some of these little hitlers who continue to bully crews in taking aircraft which contradict the MEL/CDL . I have had no axe to grind , however , when I hear about this sort of thing , it makes me wonder , what is the real threat against security and safety--terrorism or individuals like this .
Any of these serious breaches against the safety of a public transport aircraft should be reported to the JAA in the Netherlands
and not the local authority , where there are widespread levels of nepitism .
Perhaps I am being a little unfair , the national carriers appeared to have been normal operators in southern Europe .
Furthermore , this is not a 'race gripe' , it is simply various governments selectively ignoring the regulations .

12th Sep 2005, 13:08
Appauling. As an Engineer this sort of thing concerns me greatly. Very worrying when financial pressures/greed impact on safety.... when an accident happens and lives are lost you can watch all the CEO's, directors and managers plead ignorance... "safety? nothing to do with me!!".

Aircrew and Engineers need to stick together to prevent this. We've been divided for too long.

12th Sep 2005, 13:42
can we have a thread or a rough list listing airlines that we think are less safe than others just down to personal opinion like a poll but changes overtime.

30th Sep 2005, 09:18

I have been flying for BPA as Captain. I just wanted to say that as captain, and that, not only with Blue Panorama, if you think things are not right, don't do these. I always did that with Blue, disregarding the management pressure and never I had been fired. Of course, some people tried to convince me to go with some special interpretations of the manuals but I never did. Again, all depends of your attitude regarding the company. The captain who was fired in the Dominican republic was first of all already leaving the company and then, always complaining about it, resulting to an "organised suicide". Of course, Blue Panorama is not the best company to work with, but it is not because one or two persons are doing stupid things that all the people working for the company are the same. I met lots of very valuable people working there.

1st Oct 2005, 09:13
maybe, you would care to explain the involvement of the UP (unione piloti) in the case. You should also know that the great majority of pilots in BP are on short term contracts (6 to 12 mnths) which do not get renewed if one "rocks the boat". May even translate the following:


In relazione ai comunicati stampa della Blue Panorama Airlines e dell´
ENAC del 29 agosto 2005, significhiamo - in nome e per conto dell'
Unione Piloti, che ci ha conferito all´uopo regolare mandato - quanto
L' Unione Piloti ha tra i principi ispiratori della propria
azione la sicurezza del trasporto aereo a tutela dei diritti e degli
interessi dei Cittadini, in tal modo assicurando - in un´ottica di
lungo periodo - la prosperità del settore.
Nella propria azione di
tutti i giorni, l´Unione Piloti si ispira a tali principi, aliena da
iniziative che possano essere o sembrare "punitive" di persone o
Aziende o Istituzioni.
In ottemperanza a tali principi, ed a tutela
degli interessi e dei diritti del trasporto aereo nel senso sopra
indicato, l´Unione Piloti respinge al mittente il contenuto di quanto
evidenziato nei comunicati stampa di cui sopra, grata dell´avvio dell´
azione penale da parte di Blue Panorama Airlines al fine di poter
ottenere, in via giudiziaria, la conferma della legittimità delle
proprie segnalazioni e della verità dei fatti indicati.
In relazione al
contenuto del comunicato stampa di Blue Panorama del 29 agosto 2005, l´
Unione Piloti ci ha dato mandato di procedere in tutte le sedi per la
tutela della reputazione e dell´onorabilità dell´Associazione e dei
suoi Dirigenti, chiedendo anche il risarcimento di tutti i danni subiti
e subendi.
Quanto ai controlli effettuati dall´Enac, l´Unione Piloti ci
ha dato mandato per ottenere la pubblicazione delle ispezioni
effettuate nonché l´eventuale integrazione delle stesse secondo la
verità dei fatti avvenuti, con espressa riserva all´uopo di utilizzare
tutti gli strumenti tecnici possibili per ottenere la declaratoria, se
del caso anche in via giudiziaria, della legittimità dell´operato
finora svolto da Unione Piloti e dai suoi Dirigenti.
Con i migliori

Il Dipartimento

P.S. By italian labour law one should be employed on a permanent contract if one is needed after 12 months. In BP this is ignored and they offer another short term contrct. Now go and "rock the boat" if U dare...

2nd Oct 2005, 12:59
maintenance at BPA

A team composed of 30 Italian technicians and 18 Italian engineers are at the bottom of the high reliability standards of each Blue Panorama Airlines flight.
The ground staff carries out routine aircraft maintenance operations behind the scenes with the sole aim of ensuring safety: after each flight detailed ordinary inspections are carried out to be sure that every Boeing system works properly. For extraordinary maintenance, instead, Blue Panorama Airlines resorts to one of the most important maintenance locations in Europe working with partners such as Lufthansa Technick, LTU and Atitech. All checks are carried out with the utmost care and efficiency, since the top quality of Blue Panorama Airlines services must be ensured even in the smallest details. Even where it is not evident to the passenger.

...that is taken from BPA's website....so now we know that their Italian technicians/engineers are AT THE BOTTOM of the high reliability standards of each flight....... Aaaah it seems a very honest company therefore!

2nd Oct 2005, 13:06
Lufthansa Technick

Hope, maintenance is better than spelling of the homepage creator.


3rd Oct 2005, 19:01
Maintenance is one thing, work under pressure and accept to do things because of it is an other...

5th Oct 2005, 08:20
vds, thanks for the reply. Now I understand.