Manchester??

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

What happened to the MAN runway incursion thread?

SSD

[opnot]

It seems to have disappeared from the Airliners Airports and Routes forum as well

[EGCC]

The Manchester Evening News have today published an article about the incident. It basically relies on what was mentioned in the thread on here, and a similar one on Airliners.net for it's 'facts'. I don't know if thats why its been deleted but the article will not make happy reading for many people on here.

MEN Story (http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/stories/Detail_LinkStory=83120.html)

EGCC

[busz]

So this must mean that the journalists scour these forums looking for pieces of information that will make headlines on slow news days, how sad. The tone used in the article implicates a poor design in the layout of the runways, which is simply untrue. At many airports across the world, the crossing of active runways is needed to get to the terminals. Take the busiest airport in the world for instance (in terms of passenger numbers). At Atlanta, aircraft arriving on the outer-most of the four parrallel runways must cross the inner runways on which aircraft are taking off.

Does anybody else hate the way the media sensationalise small incidents at airports in order to grab the readers attention and sell more copies of their newspaper.

I for one am not worried about safety at Manchester airport for i believe the pilots flying into and out of the airport, as well as the air traffic controls are amongst the most proffessional people in the world.

I look forward to tomorrow when i will once again enjoy a speedy and efficient departure from Manchester on my way to Madrid. (Hopefully flight BA1642 wont get any delays:O )

Regards

Alex:ok:

[SPIT]

A journo on Granada has just stated that he got some hithero unknown info re the Man Airport Incident whilst he was TRAWLING THROUGH SOME AVIATION WEB SITES to-day.
So as busz stated journos DO scour the Aviation sites for info:mad: :mad: :mad:

[unwiseowl]

Radio2 new today described an incident between a MyTravel aircraft and "another airliner". Seems very unfair to only mention one of the airlines!

This is now the subject of an AAIB investigation.

[FOZ]

Mentioned also on Granada Reports tonight, but no airline detail and no date - obviously old news is ok in journalism if you don't disclose the date!

[TURIN]

BBC Northwest News tonight gave a reasonable run down of the incident and then the bloke in the studio said...

"so whos fault was it then":*

Where do they get em??:hmm:

[opnot]

BBC Northwest tonight, they even got the rwys in use wrong in their graphic . Departing 24R instead of 06L

Oh little faith in journalists

[HOODED]

It's made BBC Ceefax tonight!

[Ranger One]

Beeb now reporting ATCO suspended:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/3534245.stm

R 1
(what DID happen to the original thread anyway?)

[Sir George Cayley]

I believe that the MEN reporter who filed the story John Scheerhout is a pass holder for the airport and is either based there or is a regular visitor.

Kevin Feddy was his predecessor, a journalist for whom every flat surface at the airport was a "runway"

Reporters doncha just luv 'em

Sir George Cayley

[rutankrd]

Seems i've opened a real hornets nest !
All I was interested in was as to whether the incident observed would be investagated by the AAIB as a near miss incident or similar event.
I posted my observations both here and on another more general aviation forum to elicite relevent interest and comment from people who know about these things and NOT to raise the attentions of the general media at this time !
Clearly there is an investigation underway and if the comments about suspensions are true then it was inevitable the media found find out through their trolls !
I do hope that NO ONE looses their employment least of all ATC staff as a result but better any leasons that may be learnt are taken on board as applicable and procedured modified where necessary.(ie no head in sand senarios!)
I would like to know why the original post was deleted as this really is a more important and relevent topic of debate than whether a particular ATR is painted in BMIbaby of Cymru colours !

Seems i've opened a real hornets nest !
All I was interested in was as to whether the incident observed would be investagated by the AAIB as a near miss incident or similar event.
I posted my observations both here and on another more general aviation forum to elicite relevent interest and comment from people who know about these things and NOT to raise the attentions of the general media at this time !
Clearly there is an investigation underway and if the comments about suspensions are true then it was inevitable the media found find out through their trolls !
I do hope that NO ONE looses their employment least of all ATC staff as a result but better any leasons that may be learnt are taken on board as applicable and procedured modified where necessary.(ie no head in sand senarios!)
I would like to know why the original post was deleted as this really is a more important and relevent topic of debate than whether a particular ATR is painted in BMIbaby or Cymru colours !

[ILS 119.5]

rutankrd

Do you think we are stupid. It is unlikely that anyone will lose their job. We do not "bury our heads in the sand" after any incident whatsoever. Each is examined to find out the cause so that procedures are put in place, if required, to stop it happening again. Only after a full investigation by AAIB/SRG will the true facts be found as to the cause. Ther may be one or many factors (which is normally the case) contributing to the incident. These will all be taken into consideration for the report. I can assure you that myself and my Pilot/ATCO colleagues are very professional and the aviation industry is one of the safest industries in the world, due to our dedication to make it so. Unfortunately there are people out there who know very little about our specialised industry and a little knowledge is dangerous. Please leave it to us to determine the cause and ensure it doesn't happen again.

ILS 119.5

[Duckbutt]

ILS 119.5

I'm just a simple bloke with an interest in aviation matters and am totally happy to place my safety in the hands of the professionals but that last sentance is a bit patronising, you are still accountable to the rest of us in the final analysis!

[eal401]

very professional

Not with the attitude portrayed at the end of the post.

I'd imagine that comments such as;

Unfortunately there are people out there who know very little about our specialised industry and a little knowledge is dangerous. Please leave it to us to determine the cause and ensure it doesn't happen again.

would be more damaging to the reputation of these professionals in the eyes of an unscrupulous reporter than anything else. I can see it now:

"ATC WORKERS RIDICULE PUBLIC CONCERNS"

Wouldn't take much of a stretch for a journo to generate that sort of a headline from the above.


I know I'll get stick, so for the record, I know former ATC professionals and have met many at places like MAN and LBA, also at military stations. I don't need to be reminded about their dedication to duty and professionalism etc.

[ILS 119.5]

Sorry, if you felt I was being patronising and maybe my last sentence could have been worded better. I have come across many situations (during my 20 year career) of people, who are not professionally qualified to comment on the cause of such incidents. As you may have read all the press reports which get things wrong. All the wrong press gives the aviation industry a bad name, when all we are trying to do is ensure safety.

"you are accountable to the rest of us" is not a nice thing to say at this time due to the tragic events in Zurich recently.

"ATC workers ridicule public concerns", far from it. We do our best to ensure the aviation industry is safe. We will not shy away from public concerns, more to the point we put public concerns at the front to ensure there are no public concerns.

I know I don't need to remind you about dedication and professionalism from the Pilots/ATCO's, as they all know what they are doing.

Also to implicate that "we put our heads in the sand" is not acceptable. This is the last thing the Aviation Industry need accusing of.

Finally, the meaning of my last post was really to try and dissuade people from assuming what went wrong and posting it, and to wait and find out what really went wrong.


ILS 119.5

[Point Seven]

Too many runways for 'em. Simple as that.

P7

[Tonic Please]

What the hell was that about P7? Too many runways?

Can you elaborte on that, apparent un-thought out explination?

Dan

[tangocharlie]

Anyone let me know what CRM means please?

[Tonic Please]

Sarcasm acknowledged.

The full facts are obviously not known by all, but people that come up with simple "this is the solution end of story" posts get on peoples nerves, for goodness sake

:rolleyes:

If the solution was that simple I think it would have been thought of a long time ago. It is to my understanding that the reason airports want to have more runways is to cope with increased passenger travel and more aircraft. And to say "too many runways" is completely illogical and will continue to boggle my mind until the poster replies with a bit more of an explination and I would like to think that I am not the only one coming at the reply from this angle!

Dan

[rodan]

TP: Calm yourself. It was (I believe) a little banter from a Heathrow atco aimed at his Manchester colleagues based on their relative experience of 2-runway ops. If any of them want to get wound up about it then that's up to them, not you.

Also, I agree with 119.5. Some very experienced and impartial people from the CAA are going to determine what happened, so there is no need for any of us to speculate. Unfortunately, it seems that a few ill-informed spotters posting what they think they know both here and on airliners.net has resulted in the usual woeful press activity - the article I saw today in one tabloid rag had apportioned the blame to an atco (and had an interesting graphic showing aircraft departing 06L, with arrivals on 24L!). Is that remotely fair to the atco concerned? I note that the airlines involved were also willing to pass judgement. Shame on them.

It really makes me wonder. When every aviation-related article I read, without fail - broadsheet or tabloid, seems to have blatant inaccuracies or ridiculous sensationalism, what does that mean about the rest of the stuff that I rely on them to inform me about? Is it all cr*p?

[Sir George Cayley]

Yes


Sir George Cayley

especially in the MEN

[opnot]

p7

nail your colours to the post. Do you work at that tower only unit east of Windsor. If you do ,I cross more acft across an active rwy in one day than you see in a month. Then I have to use my approach radar rating on the other days .

Come down of your high horse

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

The Manchester Evening News recognised the value of it's scare story all by itself. In later editions, the front page switched to a "footballers arrested" yarn instead. Now that's REALLY important!

:-) SHED.

[Timothy]

Some may think that English celebrities engaged in gang rape in a foreign country actually is more important than hot brakes in Manchester.

Either way, I've no doubt that both stories will be sensationalised out of all proportion.

Timothy

[TURIN]

RODAN.

Short answer is YES.

When we all stop buying newspapers with cr@p journalism in them (IE all of them) then, and only then will they change tack and attempt to find the facts and not make them up just to meet a deadline.:mad:

Rant over... I thankyou.

[BoeingMEL]

Maybe the time is approaching for a policy review at Pprune? Aviation industry professionals will always want to learn of potentially hazardous incidents, the cause(s) and what measures have been proposed to prevent any similar recurrence. This factual information is freely circulated after the appropriate investigation and is rightly a priceless source of information and education. Speaking personally, I seriously doubt the value of posting stories such as this one because their greatest value and appeal is to journos who are free to besmirch the reputation of this fine industry with their sensationalist and fact-free tactics. Remember this: REGARDLESS OF HOW INCREDIBLE, MANY PEOPLE DO BELIEVE WHAT THEY READ IN THE 'PAPERS! bm

[EyesToTheSkies]

With regard to journos coming on here and lifting quotes from individuals who may (or may not) be stating the facts accurately, is there any requirement for said journos to obtain permission before quoting individuals? Newspapers (and publishers in general) are always keen to tell us how we must seek written permission before copying any of their material, so should we be taking these journos to court?

[WHBM]

The problem with the "wait for the official enquiry" approach is that all such enquiries seem to get mired with their own processes and take often years for the results to come out. Yet the actual detail of the problem must become known to those at the centre of things within hours. In the meantime speculation and uninformed comment have a field day. Statements of "we can't comment before the enquiry" get seen as whitewash.

Even the AAIB, generally seen as one of the better organisations, takes many months to report on trivial issues. And anything where lawyers get involved always seems to get dragged on for years (which is doubtless why certain people want the lawyers involved in the first place).

Interesting to see BBC news reporting on the serious explosion of the fuel train in Iran recently, that the Iranian Government set up an immediate enquiry on the Tuesday, to report back the following Sunday.

[opnot]

whbm

I think that the Iraqis are producing some sort of report pretty quickly because lots of people died.

[Tallbloke]

I would like to know is why was the thread pulled in the first place? As users we have no rights and we are blessed to have such a well run site as PPrune and the moderators can do whatever they like. However, I don't think this thread would have been chopped had the incident taken place elsewhere. Compare this story with the crash in Indonesia. There is a thread full of idle speculation and (probably) ill informed comment yet it remains posted. Surely foreign journalists use the same tactics and resources as there lowlife UK counterparts? Why then was this thread not also removed?
Unless there are legal reasons I don't understand. I hope it is not because it was an event which took place in the UK, which might be a bit close to home. The Indonesian crash thread has accusations of FA deserting post, crew flying about until fuel was exhausted, refuelling errors and god knows what else.
Level playing field I say.

[alf5071h]

For the professional pilots and ATC who remain interested in the safety of our industry and the reduction of risks that could lead to runway incursion accidents, see Eurocontrol Runway Safety Awareness Material. (http://www.eurocontrol.int/eatm/agas/runwayincursions/material.html)
Eurocontrol and the Joint Initiative Partners should be congratulated on producing this safety material, it appears that they have been far more active than some European National Aviation Authorities. However, before everyone orders the training CD-ROM consider the download option, it takes approx 1hr 30min on 512Kbps broadband.
Alternative / additional material from FAA Runway Safety. (http://www.faa.gov/runwaysafety)

ALF, an independent safety minded retired gentleperson without affiliation except for seeking improved safety in our industry.

Unless specifically authorized everything else is forbidden.

[EGCC Rwy 24]

I would like to know is why was the thread pulled in the first place?

Was it pulled, or was it just that the user starting the topic decided to delete his original post ---- and the thread with it??

[unwiseowl]

I think I started it and I know I didn't delete it.

[ILS 119.5]

B MEL

Just read your post in detail. I agree. I think that the professionals PILOTS/ATCOS should have their own private forum, if that is what you implied, This would stop all innacurate rumours going around and we could discuss such matters on a more professinal basis without the newspaper people getting involved. I don't know how PPRUNE could monitor this but that is up to them if they feel it is justworthy.
If NATS and some of the Airlines can have their own forums then why can't there be a forum for the professionally qualified aviation personnel?

ILS 119.5