QF Pilots Join the TWU

[bonvol]

Quite frankly, AIPA have been ineffective in keeping the company wolf from the door on a number of issues.
I’ve investigated joining the TWU and have signed up along with a number of others. These are some of the things they offer us.

Membership Fee $367 a year tax deductible
1 Full Time Barrister
5 Full Time Solicitors
2 Full Time Industrial Officers dedicated to QF
24 hour coverage by TWU and their overseas affiliates

Upon speaking with them, they are very keen to have QF pilots as members and you don’t have to resign from AIPA or advise them.

Guys, it’s good insurance for the money.
It wont be long before the TWU will be acting on pilot members behalf with respect to assignment of LSL and other issues.

If they get enough members then respondency will follow.

Come on, get on board. It’s time for some action.

[I'm gone!]

Gday Bonvol,

Are you of the opinion that QF regional pilots would be welcome also?

Cheers,

I'm gone!

[bonvol]

Yep, I'm sure they would be.

[Sperm Bank]

What about Virgin pilot's?

[Capt Fathom]

TWU ??

Is that like the ASU looking after the Ansett pilots!!

[Buster Hyman]

Bonvol.

Too many years ago, I was but a small part of a push by the TWU to take ASU members into their ranks. The TWU were as keen as mustard and we even had the forms ready to hand out.

When they approached the ACTU to ratify it (or whatever they do?) the ASU got wind of the plan & came out, guns blazing. Suffice to say that it was knocked back by the ACTU.

Now, I have had some dealings with Pilot unions, but never as a member. So, if they are anything like the Labour party's fast track to a federal seat...sorry, ASU, then get all your t's crossed & the i's dotted before you put your name to anything.

Good luck!:ok:

[bonvol]

Thanks for that info Buster.

Time will tell how it all pans out and this may not be the magic bullet, however, it can't be any worse than our current situation of owning a cap gun with no caps.

At the very least it will have some Qantas pilots represented by another union.This will be a headache for the company. GD often espouses how he has to deal with 14? unions.

I can see the QF HR/IR department and their pilot manager advisers spending some time in the commission giving evidence in the not too distant future. They are going to love it.

[MoFo]

Bonvol.

Congratulations. At last someone doing something instead of whingeing on Qroom.

If you can get some momentum going it will cause the Co. to sit up and take notice. It would mean no more cosy little group under their control. (And where would they get their Chief Pilots from in future.)

GD will be p*ssed off. So what. Its time to be difficult instead of rolling over for a belly scratch, as always.

[The Messiah]

Interesting...........any union is only as strong as its membership and a strong union is usually more of an anchor than an engine.

Look at the baggage handlers for instance.

I've never been a member of a union and never required ones assistance. Just lucky I guess but I don't think it is a step in the right direction at all.

Sorry but Bill Kelty is too fresh in the memory for mine.

The only union pilots in Oz need is to stop prostituting themselves.

[imabell]

i'm not into unions, although i was forced to join one once or get another job.

in an industry where management is slowly wringing the pay packet dry it would be folly to not look at ways of protecting your income. we all have bills to pay.

loving to work in an industry is not a benefit, it's a privilege that we all enjoy (it beats working for a living) and we wouldn't trade it for anything. unfortunately these days with the supply of pilots far outstripping the demand, management now has you by the short and curlies.

that's not prostitution by the pilots, that's exploitation of the system by the hirers.

young pilots of today will except lower pay structures because they are used to it from day one at flying school. the culture of little pay for seven days work as a flying instructor rubs off on the student as he goes through his training, he/she will accept anything to get a foot in the door.

exploitation (mainly by flying schools) started to rear its ugly head in the mid seventies as the pilot community started to grow. now it's endemic. now it's entrenched in the airlines.

the seniority system is nearly finished, (if it's not already).
the ability to buy your way into a seat has even been overtaken by having to buy your way into a seat.
i've been told that you even have to buy your own uniforms and pay for renewals and sim time in some cases.

protect yourselves, now.

[blueloo]

If everyones wages are ultimately going to be low...what exactly are you getting your foot in the door for? Low wages to fly bigger newer planes? They won't be getting their foot in the door for that prestigious (????) well remunerated flying job - because it wont exist!




:{ :{

[tenke]

Pilots seem to be mistaking 'union' for 'unity'.
People won't accept 'anything' , but I think everyone has their price (so to speak). So the question is (to yourself) ..how low will you go?
If workers did not work for nothing (for example), then the employers next offer would be something more than nothing.

[Going Boeing]

Bonvol

Have you ever nominated for a position on AIPA's Committee of Management - most of the guys who make a lot of noise about AIPA being ineffective have never got off their backsides to do anything themselves even to the extent of not phoning AIPA to get the facts. They get incensed about what they hear on the rumour mill and then start shooting off their mouth.

I can't see the AWU being more effective than AIPA as they still have to operate within the Industrial laws of our country and as pilots will be a very small fraction of their operation, they won't assign their full resources to solving pilot issues - especially as the rest of their membership believes that we are overpaid and have a dream lifestyle. It will also take a considerable time for the AWU Industrial staff to get their heads around the convoluted workplace agreements (both short haul & long haul) that are in place so they'll be happy to coast along on AIPA's coat-tails and take your subs (easy money - thanks very much).

For those who are junior in their rank (& type) AIPA has achieved a lot of improvements in the last two EBA's. Things aren't perfect, however, the structured approach that AIPA has been conducting over recent years is effective. There is no way that the AWU could have prevented the recent ambush by QF and Impulse pilots over Jetstar because the deal was done before any information got into the public comain.

I believe that GD will be very happy to hear that the pilot ranks have divided ranks even further. GB

[Keg]

Got to agree with GB on this one. AIPA may not be perfect but AIPA is at least a bunch of pilots trying to do the best for pilots. You list out the TWUs staff bonvol but neglect to mention how many members they have to cover.

I'd certainly stack up the full time AIPA staff against that list AND they have the advantage of knowing all about the particular interests that affect us as pilots, and ONLY work on those issues. Sure, we may have issues at times with the COM and the way that OUR union works but it is up to US to do something about that.

You expect that the TWU can be more effective at 'protecting' us? I'd say that by the act of jumping ship, you ultimately harm ALL QF pilots far greater than the benefit you perceive you will receive.

Regards,

[bonvol]

Going Boeing,

I agree that a lot of blokes make a lot of noise but never put their hands up to make a difference. I'm not one of them. I'll leave it at that. Over the past while there has been some pressure to silence the outspoken. This is the way we are supposed to be kept "in Line", with none too veiled threats.
A quick trip for a "chat" would surely follow if I posted some of this stuff on Qrewroom.

It's the TWU by the way not the AWU. A typo on your behalf ?

As for the recent deal with the Jetstar pilots being unavoidable I can't agree with that. The Impulse pilots sure knew about it before it got into the public domain. A confidentiality agreement with AIPA would have got around any delicate discussions. I would allege the co didn't bother talking to AIPA because they didn't need or want to. I do agree we got ambushed and very effectively too. Now we have a deal that only a very junior S/O would even contemplate, effectively a deal you have when you are not having a deal.

BTW, I don't have a beef with the Impulse blokes per se. After all, it was AIPA who didn't want to play ball with them in the first place. A fatal error.

[blueloo]

What AIPA really needs is an independant President who does not have an interest in progressing into QF. He needs to be paid by us - the Union members- to act in our interest. We also need a lawyer who is useful. Not a hinderance.

[bonvol]

Keg, I believe it's either death by a thousand cuts, of which we have received a goodly amount, or head up a different path.

True, the TWU has to cover some real estate but after reading some of the commission transcripts of recent cases against Qantas I don't see too many QF wins. A pleasant change.

They are keen as mustard and union membership is a free choice nowadays! I'm very impressed by their legal people too. We will see.

[Going Boeing]

On a number of threads it has been stated that AIPA rejected approaches by the IPG for union coverage. I know for a fact that when CM was president he wanted coverage of all pilots in the Qantas group. Can someone supply the facts of when and why the IPG were rejected. Personally, I can't understand why they or our regional peers would be rejected. GB

[Q-Tee]

Before you go down the TWU road, I would take a look at your EBA .... who are the organisations that are representative signatories, and therefore allowed to negotiate the EBA?

My guess ---- that would be AIPA and QF. The TWU is not involved in that EBA, therefore they cannot negotiate in regards to it, unless the majority of members involved with both EBA parties agree to transferring representative/ negotiating rights to the EBA from the AIPA to the TWU.

I may be wrong ...... but I know it was tried before with cabin crew at a certain airline. The result was that the TWU could not represent the cabin crew, as the FAAA was the agreed representative association - designated by the EBA to conduct negotiations.


An EBA is between one employee represetative organisation and the company. It cannot be between two employee representative parties and the company. That would involve the original employee representative party (AIPA) agreeing to allow the TWU to be a part of the negotiations.


That is the industrial rules, as I know it from last I was a union rep :}

[slamer]

If you think things are bad now, I promise you they will get worse with 2 or 3 Unions representing you. The irony is.. this (these pages) is just what Management loves, and those of you here are playing their game suggesting you "shop around" for representation. I have said it before, and will again... "We have the labour, they have the Gold, we each want what the other has". Therefore it's Business, and we all understand that.
" It's your right to withhold your labour"
You must unite the WHOLE Qantas group to maintain conditions, and improve those of your colleagues on lesser conditions for the betterment of ALL. Sooner or later you must/will, as a unified group "strike" to stop this concessionary slide, that is the only thing that will make for change for the better. If you dont then you either are to scared to remove your nose from your Trough, or you have forgotten how to (never knew)....or maybe you just dont care!!!...What ever, from what I read here it may be to late as it sounds like you are begining to fractionate, and that my friends is the end!

Good luck...glad this isnt my fight (have already been there) but ultimately these events effect the whole industy. I appreciate this kind of talk often puts People out of their comfort zone., but you must get out of denial.

[fordran]

Q-Tee and other interested pilots. I have been watching this debate from the sidelines and can see the problems you face. There is not much faith in the current leaders, maybe this was created by their own doing or perhaps they are suffering the mistrust that unions develop when several officials defect to management thus creating a vacuum of suspicion. I am a LAME and have been involved in unions for some time, mainly as an AMWU official during the eba dispute 2 years ago. You claim that only one union can be a respondent to an award/eba and this fallacy needs immediate correction.

The AMEs at QF are split into 2 unions, the AMWU and the AWU. The AMWU having a slightly higher portion. They attend the same negotiating meetings together, they run joint meetings of members and they co-operate with each other by and large. The AWU is more conservative and during the eba were not advising members to vote no. The AMWU were sending a clear message to the AMEs to reject the earlier offers. An eba needs to be accepted by a majority of employees covered by the agreement, not a majority of members of the main union. Eventually after some disruption the offer increased to a level acceptable to the combined membership of both unions. This gave many AMEs wage rises of up to 40% whilst other unions were taking wage freezes to support managerial bonuses.

Statements such as “we must stick together” don’t really mean much. It might make you feel part of a united stand but viewing the current erosion of pilot wages at mainline operators it looks like you are all going down with the same ship. There are other ships you know. If 25% of the pilots join another union, Qantas and AIPA may not allow them in to negotiate but this is what would happen. The minor union with 25% of the members would issue a directive to all their members asking them to vote no unless they are involved in the negotiations. The airline would have 2 options. Let them in or make sure the 75% in the other union nearly all votes for the agreement. To guarantee the vote gets up, a good offer would be required and instead of a cone of silence being placed on the members, the minor union would be campaigning for the no vote and letting all the pilots know why. Do you think an acceptable offer in this case would be better or worse than before?

Please get your heads out of the sand and don’t be fooled by the warm and fuzzy statements about standing as one. It is invariably the same people making these misleading statements who are always pushing the company point of view. If you suspect your Association is being run by the airline, not the pilots, you will all drown holding each others hands. Look at the recent results delivered and remember that when the airline have only one union to deal with it is very easy to manipulate the system. It is time to start thinking outside the square. Two unions working side by side is not only another solution, it is the best solution.

Good luck

[bonvol]

Precisely, join the TWU NOW!

Ring up and ask to speak to the Industrial Officer who represents Pilots, Raj Chaudhry.

[*Lancer*]

There already ARE two unions... AIPA, and the Impulse Pilot's Council (in-part AFAP). It's already clear what it's doing for pilots as a whole.

We're being encouraged to 'out-deal' each other. We're seeing it now with Mainline (AIPA) and Impulse (IPC) having to negotiate a 'deal', and in the past with the failed bid (AFAP/EAAPC) for Qantaslink pilots to join mainline.

Multiple unions attempting to represent the one group (Qantas as a whole), simply enables the company to force each union to undercut each other. Where is the protection from that?

It's a classic case of one pilot willing to do it for less to try and get the job. Unions are already placing 'jobs' ahead of 'doing it for less' !! More unions will only exaccerbate that...

Lancer

[D Rate]

I mentioned on another post the possibility of the TWU. I guess on reflection, I ought to clarify. The union needs to distance itself from the company. No matter what the com at AIPA do, every pilot is on the payroll of the company. An advocate employed to negotiate for the pilot group who doesn't have a cyclic and can't jump ship to management and a few blue collar tricks (Given the bean counters think nothing of the profession of aviation) may see us in a better position.

I really don't understand the problem. An advocate with his or her head around the issues, who is not a line Captain, can't be intimidated. properly supported with legal muscle may mean the "goodwill" extended to the company in the hard times, may be a little more valued.

[Kaptin M]

An advocate employed to negotiate for the pilot group who doesn't have a cyclic and can't jump ship to management and a few blue collar tricksMoney talks - bull#*it walks.
If "The Company" sees some industrial advantage in buying out one of those types, they will.
Len Coysh - a non-pilot, full time industrial officer with the AFAP for many years - sold his services to Ansett in the lead up to the 1989 Dispute.

There is nothing wrong with having pilots representing the QF pilot group, as long as they are men (or women) of strong character and principle.
From some of the posts here, it would seem that some of your past execs have NOT been.

Is it a case of "A bad workman always blames his tools"?
The biggest problem has more than likely been the APATHY of the general QF pilot body - preferring to leave matters to others, in this case AIPA.

Now that AIPA hasn't worked out for you, rather than realising it is ALL of YOU who must get off your lazy @sses and get actively INVOLVED, you're looking at trying to push the responsibilty on to someone else....in this case the TWU.

ANYONE - but ME after all, I'm far too busy!! :*

[GT-R]

Keg: AIPA may not be perfect but AIPA is at least a bunch of pilots trying to do the best for pilots.

What a pisser!!!

[bonvol]

Len Coysh...there's a name that will live in aviation infamy for all time.

He did have a sabbatical at Mt Eliza before turned on his past compatriots though. Our blokes jump ship in the same company.

The Kap is right about apathy of the general pilot body though.
It was ever thus, even in the AFAP with the usual suspects doing the heavy lifting.

AIPA is way too close to management IMO. By the time we vote in a new com valuable time will be lost and we may end up just changing deck chairs on the titanic.

A switch to the TWU by a significant number of pilots will at the very least make the company aware we are not "happy to be on the same winning team" to paraphrase our leader.

Who is happy and who is winning I would ask? Not the pilots thats for sure.

[slamer]

Fordran, all very eloquent (I must say I found myself thinking this MUST be Management spin) it sounds like the kind of Language used to mollify and confuse.

Standing as one group is anything but "warm & fuzzy" especially when you do not 100% agree with whats being said/done by the Union (and before you say it, there's always going to be something you dont agree with) in this situation, you will find some People take the opportunity and run somewhere else (invariably a nice cosy place, encouraged with open arms by the Company) they blame their actions on everyone/thing but themselves. These types are normally sycophants, unable to avoid the Spotlight any longer, unwilling to contribute, and secretly wanting to make the jump to that cosy place usually under a rock, but looking for the excuse.

When you are standing on the "Picket line", watching the other Group (Union) cross it, and its always going to be the smaller/weaker group doing the crossing or voting "no", we will see how "warm and fuzzy" it feels. While you put your Career & Families future on the line, we will see how moderate you feel.
But then if your with the smaller Union you probably wont find yourself in that situation, will you? and therein lies the attraction for some, and the demise of all.

Fordran, as you stand by your idiom's, right in front of your eyes, the only Ship Sinking (OK 2 Ship's) is the one you rally...why...because "no one is holding hands".

If One lack's faith/respect for their Union Management, stand for office and vote them out!(they are you)
Union Managers going to Company positions has been happening for ever, dont worry about it, and dont try and stir resentment with it, unless...of course you have an agenda.

Lancers got it, bottom line the Co will use one group to lever down (always down) the other....and hello....thats what is happing, right now! and for what ever reason some here are co-operating this.

[Horizon_Pilot]

In our experience with the TWU, they have been professional and always willing to offer assistance to its members. We have access to Raj Chaudry (0418667058) or any of their other delegates (02 99120700) as matters arose. The TWUs' legal department are experts in Industrial issues and writing EBAs.

The pilots' within these companies looking at joining the TWU, firstly, need to make sure that all pilots are on the same page and most importantly, United. It's up to the pilots within these companies to back each other up, speak through their elected delgates and then the TWU is there with Industrial Relations expertise to give you good advice. The TWU give the pilot body a level playing field when discussing business with their companies. They are effective, one of the countries biggest and well respected.

The TWUs' federal secretary and I will be meeting shortly to discuss a Pilot sub-branch within the TWU (possibly the "TWU Pilots' Association). This is very good news for all pilots'. The TWU has also been approached by other Regional operators in Sydney.

The TWU assisted us in writing an EBA that was more in line with industry standards, unlike the GA Award which we where on. During Horizon, the TWU helped us alot and worked even harder during Horizons' demise to make sure that workers entitlements were intacted. All pilots' had their entitlements paid and the Metro guys who wanted a job with the new company got one (with our EBA intacted), and the ones who didn't got access to voluntary redundancies as per our agreement. This was only possible with the pilots' remaining united and the TWUs' might. :ok:

In summary, the TWU is only interested in its' members well being. For any assistance, call Raj and he can point you in my direction if you like.

"We can't change the past, but we can make a difference to the future......TWU"

[bonvol]

Thanks for the testimonial Horizon Pilot.

I fear though that this battle is pretty well lost for the QF pilots and they will follow the good ship AIPA to the bottom. We are nearly there already and may have even arrived :{

[Keg]

Bonvol. Whether you think you can or can't.....you're right. If all the members think 'we're done' then we're right. This one ain't over.

Sometimes we just keep aiming the gun at our own foot and pulling the trigger. Opting out of AIPA and moving to the TWU is a great example!

[bonvol]

Keg, can I translate that as "She'll be right mate?" :ok:

And pilots shooting themselves in the foot..yep agree with that too...as a matter of fact....our feet got shot off some time back. The company has now blown off both nads and the ticker shot is in the barrel.

For our sake I hope you are right but I gave up on Santa Claus some time back.

[Keg]

Not at all Bonvol. It's actually meant to mean that if you feel that we're defeated (and thus give up fighting) then I can guarantee that we are (or shortly will be) defeated. I put 'opting out' and going to the TWU is an admission of giving up.

Yeah, we've shot ourselves in the foot before but going to the TWU is just another pull of the trigger. The LAMES got some fantastic conditions in their last EBA by being united. They weren't split into different unions and had a steady resolve. Whilst I acknowledge that the resolve articulated by AIPA to the company hasn't been the strongest in the past, I have more faith in this current Pres and some of his crew at being able to negotiate the best outcome possible for all of us than in a couple of seperate pilot groups being able to effect the same change.

There is LOTS of work to be done and this 'war' ain't over yet- although the Jet* battle may be nearly over. All of us working together can get a good outcome. Seperated we're stuffed.

I only put faith in stuff I can put to the test. Robin et al are certainly being put to the test. I'm prepared to back him until he fails that test. I don't see that yet. Sure, it took threats of a SGM to get the info flowing. I'll accept the less than perfect communication in that initial regard as a sign of the rigours of the current negotiations and the actions of a less than united COM. Still, he responded and thats all I can ask!

Stay the course. This one ain't over!

[Kaptin M]

If only the majority of pilots employed under the QF name had your attitude and resolve, Keg, the problems raised here would be resolved in a short time.

Hopefully this big wake-up call will make QF pilots realise that you ALL need to take an active interest in what your proposed destiny is if you take NO action.

A few of us were having a discussion about the current attack on the QF pilots' conditions, and the consensus of opinion was that because of the (performance bonus) structuring of upper level management, and the presence of Virgin Blue, any direct confrontation with the pilots is likely to be resolved in short time.
However to prevent the QF group pilots being played off against each other you are all going to need to be unified ie. ONE.
At this time, AIPA alone provides that resource, imo.

[bonvol]

After the way AIPA supported the AFAP in the dispute Kap I would have thought that would be your last recommendation.

When the chips are down AIPA will fold their tent imo. They have never been put to the test like now and so far I see no indication they have a clue how to get out of this one. The committee is divided on strategy and some of them remind me of deer in the headlights.

It really is time for a change and if it can be done with AIPA then well and good. Past performance would indicate otherwise though. We will see.

[Keg]

Bonvol, what I find interesting in your statements is that you refer to AIPA like it is some benelovent grand parent who will provide us with our needs and when it doesn't, we'll look for someone who can. It is not. WE are AIPA. You and me all the other pilot members. It is US who will make this work. I just hope you've spent as much time and effort conversing with various COM reps getting the full story, letting them know how you feel and letting them know what support they can expect as you have on PPRUNE trying to tell people to jump ship. I know I have!

[bonvol]

Yes, I have Keg and will continue to do so. A number of Com members privately share their concerns about our direction but toe the party line, for now anyway.

I have respect for the 11 who voted in accordance with the directions they were given by the majority of the members. They are in the minority on the Com however. And why the big secret about how the voting goes anyway? If the committee was proud of their work they would have been happy to leave the names up on qrewroom.

Oldmeadow is a professional at destroying union opposition. We wont get a satisfactory result using the Marquis of Queensbury rules with this bloke on the ot

<Pprune ate the rest of my post and no time to complete it now. Agree with Blueloos comments below>

[Binoculars]

Keg,

I have no part in your situation and no real vested interest. I love being able to fly cheaply, but there comes a point at which the bell shaped curve goes titsup and the law of diminishing returns comes into play. I suspect we are well on the way to that point, in terms of the decreasing average experience levels of airline pilots.

But the factor which must concern everybody involved in this is the supply and demand equation, which works in pretty well every other occupation but never really has in airline flying until now. It's that which nullifies your argument about the LAME's achievements in their EBA. There simply isn't a constant supply of wannabe LAME's.

I've stated before that I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner in the airline industry, given the number of wannabees who, having lived on the bones of their arses in traditional GA fashion, are happy to leap into a jet position for less and less reward. For the life of me, I can't see an answer to this at any time, let alone in an industry still so suspicious and divided that the different groups are still hurling abuse at each other.

I wish you luck, but all mainline QF pilots are right to be worried, I fear. The beancounters rule, and until an old adage is proven at the expense of our safety record, things will get worse. The adage? "If you think safety is expensive, wait till you have an accident."

[blueloo]

Keg, this rhetoric that we are AIPA is very well and good in the sense that yes it is technically the pilots representing the pilot body, or as the case appears some of the pilots representing themselves and the minority representing the pilot body - whichever way we look at it - the Union is NOT DOING WANT THE PILOTS WANT. WE WANT RESULTS. WE ELECTED PEOPLE TO GET RESULTS FOR US. IT'S NOT HAPPENING. To say that we are AIPA is ridiculous in some senses - we cant control them. We had an SGM last year and they still didnt do what we wanted. A threat of an SGM this year was the only way we appear to be getting a reaction from AIPA - and even then we havent seen anything on a vote for what we want. It will all be over before we even realise that we are roadkill.


Once Jetstar gets up an running its to late./ They can cover our schedules should we choose to take action (approved, or not).

Whilst Dixon is getting his jollys with secretaries, we are getting shafted. He is getting the bonus. Our managers are getting bonus's. Everyones getting bonus's because we are losing conditions.

In the Chief Pilots letter/memo to us the other day, it basically says that we should be happy to accept lower conditions/lower standard hotels - because its good for the companies profit (capitalisation/profit return etc) This coming from our former union president - it didnt take long for a few big $$$$$ to be waived in front of him to change his mind did it.





:mad: :mad:

Ok enough ranting.

[slamer]

The Mainline QF People desperately need "Scope" on ALL QF operated Jets NOW, the ONLY way to acheive this is "strike", worry about conditions later. To effectively strike you must have a significant portion of the workforce on-side. Sorry I dont subscribe to the "Give me a handful of Men of steel" school. You must be able to significantly disrupt all services, otherwise it's biz as usual. If you are divided, this is not possible, or at least very difficult.

Sounds like some contributors here are only interested in preserving THEIR conditions (screw the rest), I read very little (nothing) on improving Jesters conditions. Ultimatley you must accept your world has changed, focus on Jester conditions with a long term view of meeting over half-way or you will be marginalised.
Dont waste energy on how much Management are getting paid in Bonuses, thats capitalism. and the system we live/work with. cant change it, forget it or you'll develope Cancer.

Consider these headlines "Jetstar announces a further 40 A320's ordered" or "Due to the success of Jetstar, they will now operate 10 ex QF B767's" when you all see wide-body Cmmds up for grabs, but not for you, that will really focus your thoughts & energy, it is still well within your power to prevent these kind of events if managed intelligently, it's far from to late!

I detect more than a little Panic from some here ( I suspect from new-hires) at a time when you need to" think fast and talk slow", not... throw your toys out of the cot. and threaten anarchy.
Bonvol, Blueloo and others, I hope you understand how distructive some of your comments here (publicly) potentially are for your cause. you would do well to listen to KEG & KAP M

[MrWooby]

Why would Jetstar pilots want to gain coverage by AIPA. Surely AIPA are doing this to ensure that for any future aircraft ie, A340, that QF pilots would fly them. The carrot being dangled is that Jetstar pilots can transfer to QF, if they meet the requirements. But as all/most Jetstar pilots have already failed the test battery what do they gain?

I think Jetstar Pilots would have much more to gain by staying outside AIPA and offering QF managent an alternative source of crew. QF management have shown themselves to be totally dollar driven, and will go for the least cost alternative regardless of staff morale, safety etc.

If QF decide to bring in another type, say A340, And Jetstar offer to fly it for 180K Capt, 100K FO, QF will jump at it. What will AIPA do! On current form, AIPA will say that they can't do anything as its not legal, ie no case for transfer of business case, or its outside the EBA bargaining period.

The only way for AIPA to go is to demand a scope arrangement confining all aircraft above a certain capacity to be flown by QF pilots. Put it on the line at the next EBA, and don't waiver. Be prepared to strike. Tough it out.

The line in the sand has been crossed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pimp Daddy]

The only way for AIPA to go is to demand a scope arrangement confining all aircraft above a certain capacity to be flown by QF pilots. Put it on the line at the next EBA, and don't waiver. Be prepared to strike. Tough it out.


How does the scope clause work? I'm assuming AIPA and QF would agree that any new aircraft introduced into the group above a certain number of seats will be operated by QF mainline pilots.

How does the fact that the Jetstar guys are already up to 177 seats with the A320s ordered affect that?

What would happen if they introduced say A321 to Jetstar and AIPA had achieved a scope of 180 seats+ (dunno what a high density A321 is but I'm guessing close to 200), would the argument centre purely on number of seats or would the fact it is just a stretch of the type already operated?

[Keg]

You know, you're absolutely right Wooby. That'd work for the IPG.

Except that in ten years time when the son of A380 comes along and the regional pilot group offer to fly it for half of the IPG rates (although I do have more faith in the Regional group that that) or that some other pilot group does the same thing.

Thats the problem with pilots. We're too darned short sighted. We were short sighted when QF bought Australian, we were short sighted when it came to the regionals, we were short sighted with Jitconnict and Impulse.

Your thoughts continue the lack of foresight Wooby. It's short sighted and ultimately destructive. Why have the airlines bandied together in OneWorld and Star? Safety in numbers and no one killing each other. Pilot groups should be doing the same! :ok:

[fordran]

Hello again and thanks for the response Slamer. Keg I don’t know who has told you the wonderful story about the resolve of the lames but I will take the time to tell all what really happened.:yuk:

75% of lames voted no for their EBA. The ALAEA Exec would not accept the result so they took another vote on the same agreement with a shorter term, again the lames voted no and asked the exec to commence plans for an industrial campaign. 79% of lames voted in favour of taking industrial action to improve the agreement. The resolve was there, good reps had been negotiating the agreement and they stood with the unhappy members. That is when the problems started.

Secret meetings were had, the good reps were kicked off the committee and replaced by “senior officials”. The “senior officials” blocked every move to take any action despite numerous motions and 18 months. The “senior officials” then went back to Qf to get back the original package but failed. A lesser package was then offered and the “senior officials” where paid by Qf to travel the country selling it with a big stick. The good reps were gagged and the others told lames that they couldn’t take industrial action and would lose 18 months back-pay if they didn’t vote yes. So they had no choice and accepted less they they originally rejected. The lames with resolve and many good reps working as one good screwed by three or four “senior officials” who disregarded the wishes of the majority in order to satisfy their own desire to seek promotion within the company.

My earlier post did get some response and I think some explanation is due. The pilots do have two unions. One for Qf and the other for Impulse. Both unions want their part of the Qf pie to grow in order to increase members. Growth is driven by profit and the two unions understand that keeping wages and conditions down will give them a bigger share of the pie. That is why the Com get nothing done, they are actively taking part in the undercutting process.

You need two unions representing each group. The unions will then need to redirect their focus away from creating the cheapest airline in order to increase member numbers to delivering the best service to the members. Then the members will move to the union that gives them the best outcomes. Some of you urge the pilots to stand behind the AIPA leaders. They have let you down in the past and they will do it again. You need to make them accountable and standing with them holding hands will not allow that. It is extremely hard to swim without your hands and there is a rescue ship throwing you a lifeline. I would grab it.

[boofta]

You guys/gals have to stop writing each other 1,000 word
episals.
The problem is simple, there is now an internal threat to your
long term conditions called Jetstar. If you take industial action
Jetstar will take up the slack your strike creates.
There is only one solution, invite Jetstar into AIPA.
Otherwise it's headed in one direction.