comercial flying canada

[cymuni]

Hi all
I am nearing the end of my commercial training here in southern Ont. Just have 300nm x/c and ride left to do. I'm wondering if anyone out there with flying jobs has any advice for someone like myself? Just getting ready to start out. I have been considering going the instructor route for some time now. But what are the prose and cons of that route if any?
If you could do it all over again how would it be different?
Any and all advice welcome
cheers

[bafanguy]

I'll tell you the same thing I told my son who's graduating shortly from a very good college aviation program in the States ( perhaps the best ): aviation is a cruel mistress. If you won't go into the military ( after which your resume will look a whole lot better to the pencil monkeys who do the hiring ), then you will instruct until you can make some kind of connection to bigger and better things. That's just the way it is...you can whine and scream about the injustice of it all, but reality is just that...REALITY.



Welcome to the fraternity, Young Bro.

[whereisjohn]

I'm fairly new to the aviation industry myself but what I am told is persistence, persistence, persistence and also being in the right place at the right time. As far as the Air Force route in Canada, as far as I know is that there is a demand for pilots - I looked myself at that route. However, there are obviously a lot of cons to that as there is an 11 or 12 year commitment and although you are trained to be a pilot, in that 11 or 12 years the probability that you will log thousands of hours is not that much of a reality, further, you will also need to do CPL / ATPL exams when you want to go into the civilian world. I also have been told by ex airforce pilots that there are quite a few airlines that shy away from military trained pilots for the sole reason that they are trained I guess in a military way.

Now to those reading this, please don't get me wrong and think I am getting down on military pilots, I am not at all... I would love to have been in the Airforce but looking ahead I chose the route I did because I thought it was best for me. I just wanted to pass on what people have told me... just opinions!

Hope that may give you some insight.

Good Luck

[bafanguy]

I can't speak for the situation in Canada directly ( and I'd be surprised if it were different up there ), but here in the USA, there is a very strong preference by the airlines for ex-military pilots. I'm NOT fairly new to aviation and after 35+ years of airline work at three airlines, I can tell you the airline flt ops and hiring game is designed and operated by ex-military pilots. We can run this debate till the cows come home, but the fact is ( in the USA ) that no matter how much time you have, or how much you know, you'll be seen as a grudging 2nd choice in the employment office if you're NOT a military pilot. Good luck to you both...and I hope I'm wrong about the situation up there.

[cold canuck]

In Canada there is a very small Airforce. It's like 8 guys sitting around a keg of bear! Seriously.

I bet we have less than 300 fixed wing active airforce pilots. I know one guy who flew Hornets in the gulf war, and had been "in" for 10 years. When he left he has 2800hrs TT. Had to get a crap turbo prop job and build some time before the airlines would look at him.

If you've got no time, you've got no job. HOWEVER, we all had no time once. Now I fly 747. If your persistant, anythings possible.

[bafanguy]

Well, 2,800 hours...10 years service ? That's about right for a military pilot ( even in the USA, especially a fighter guy ); they don't fly all that much but their resumes float to the top of the pile when the pencil monkeys go looking. Had to fly TP's after getting out ? Well, OK. Did he end up in a career airline job ? If the answer is "yes", then what's the issue ? If you love to fly, you do whatever it takes to get where you want to be. Aviation is a cruel mistress; it's all about what SHE wants, not what YOU want. The cruel world sort of separates those who really want it from those who are just "looking". Stop watching MTV and expecting instant gratification. I wish I could offer you better news. P.S. I'm NOT a military pilot but spent 35+ years in the airline business working with them. Good luck, Junior Birdmen.

[cold canuck]

Yep, he got on, but wasn't pleased about the Single Engine he had to take to hit the 3000hr mark to qualify for a job @ an airline. Nice guy, one of the best pilots I ever met.

Irregardless, the Air Force is not the way to the airlines in Canada.

[cymuni]

So what is the way to the airlines in Canada?
I am 29 years old with a wife and daughter. Not old I know but even if the military was a option I don't think it would be the right one for me and my family.

[cold canuck]

Guy, I can't tell you the way. I think your a big disadvatage being 29. I'm 29 with wife and daughter too. I have been at this for 9 years (including flight school) I have 5000 hrs and have chosen to go overseas to find work.

There's a saying in Canada about "the last pilot leaving, please turn off the lights".

I have a lot of friends laid off form Jazz and Transat. some from AC. I really don't think there is much future in Canada. I think for yourself, with your age and situation, I would try for a corporate job. The in a few years IF (big if) things change, chances are A) You'll be alive and B) you've been flying something decent.

However any job is hard to get as you undoubtedly know,

best of luck.

[whereisjohn]

I agree with that! Canada is a pretty harsh place for an aspiring pilot. I chose to do my training abroad to check out what the scene was like elsewhere and fortunately I wasn't tied to any responsibilites so I could just pick up and leave. I chose NZ for my training generally for cost factor and seemed like a good place to do the training.

After I finished I took my backpack, a handful of CV's and went doorknocking. Aviation is OZ and NZ seem to be picking up a little with the introduction of Virgin Blue and Pacific Blue giving way for low hour pilots to get either single engine para dropping or instructing jobs. I also went to S.E. Asia and there seems to be a few things happening there ... ie. Air Asia, Orient Thai... all of which may give you a look with few hours if you got the cash to hand over for type rating and bonding yourself for a set number of years.

However, in the end I decided to take advantage of my current situation and relocated back to Ireland where I am now undergoing the JAA conversion. I figured here is as good as anywhere... at least over here, unlike Canada, my first aviation job will not be a guaranteed dock hand like back home!!! I've heard of guys with 500hrs back in Canada taking jobs loading cargo for a year or two and then they will be promoted to a flying job - if they are lucky... hey, it's the sad reality unless you get lucky.... So, I guess my point and advice is - again as limited as it is - is be prepared to uplift yourself to some place else. If flying is what you want to do, one thing you will realise quickly is how flexible you have to be and be prepared for a lot of sacrafices - and I'm saying this without even a job yet!

Good luck to you!

WISJ

[cymuni]

My wife and I are lucky enough to both hold UK passports. Relocating back to England is something that we would certainly consider. But what is involved with the JAA conversion from a Canadian CPL? I've heard it is easier if you have your ATPL. Is this true?
I realize my age does not allow me to hang about with my flying . And if there's one thing I am it is persistant. As I'm sure most pilots are or they wouldn't have been able to get as far as a CPL.

[cold canuck]

I know I sound like I'm full of bad news, But I have an EU passport too and would LOVE to get a JAR license. It's really big money, a lot of time, and HARD! Without living in Europe and taking the courses fulltime (and about 15,000$) I can't see how it's possible. Wit an ATP and a type rating, A validation is relatively easy if your employer will do that for you .

[goates]

I have a friend who recently got on with Westjet after about ten years of work. He started out as an instructor (I was one of his students), and through that he met the right people to move up. Unfortunately, in Canada it's as much about knowing the right and being in the right place at the right time as the number of hours. In my ffiend's case this is exactly what happened. He knew the right people, they remembered him when an opening came and asked him to apply. Another point though is that everyone gets there a different way and you have to a route that works for you.

Joining the military in Canada may not be a very good way to get into the airlines here at all. Something half of our air force is made up of helicopters, so while you may get lots of hours on them, it won't apply much to an airliner. I looked at it a couple of years ago, and at that point chances were good that you would end up flying a helicopter. Maybe it's changed, but then they are constantly cutting back the number of fixed wing aircraft.

goates

[bafanguy]

This has been a very interesting discussion. I wouldn't have imagined things could be so different over such a short bit of geography. Thanks for the education. Perhaps the smaller overall military and the helicopter factor ( something I never would've thought about ) create a different pilot supply line. The airline industry in both countries is in bad shape...an unfortunate commonality. Good luck to you guys. I've been there...done that and I can't say I envy your position but admire your spunk.

[whereisjohn]

CYM,


For the conversion to JAA - first off yeah, it's hard! I hold a New Zealand CPL MEIR with 210 hours (pretty much the same level as a Canadian CPL)... here's what I have to do to convert, keeping in mind I am doing this in Ireland, I assume the process is pretty standard across the EU.

1) Must write all 14 ATPL exams, split into two modules of 7 exams each. There is also a specific amount of time required for study but from what I can tell there is no way to monitor that. IE. if you have an Instrument rating, the study required is cut from 650hrs to 35hrs, or something around those numbers.

If you have recently written your CPL exams you will find a lot of it to be review and can probably allot yourself around two months or 6 weeks study for each module. (Homestudy kit 1600-2500 Euro)

2) An additional 15 hours of Instrument flying must be completed to satisfy the JAA

3) A CPL skills/flight test on a retractable gear aircraft. I have been told that I should probably get about 10 hours of flying with an instructor before the test to familiarise myself with local rules and to refresh my flying skills. (160 Euro/hr.)

4) Almost every airline in the EU requires that a pilot has done an MCC course. There are many outfits in Ireland and the UK that do this and consists of 20hours sim time. (3500-5000 Euro)

5) And if you're lucky enough to get looked at when you're finished you would further your chances of employment by self funding yourself. ie. Ryanair and those likes at (21000-25000Euro 737 or 18000 ATR). I'd only do this if it was under contract with a carrier.


So, yeah it's tough and yeah, it's expensive but I've looked at it as being a way to achieve my goal and if you have the cash then it's a way to jump up the ranks to the airlines quicker. Personally, if all goes well in my dream world I tend to sometimes live in, I would like to stay here for 5-7 years, build my hours and then return to Canada where I will probably at 5000 or so hours have just enough Total Time to get a look by Westjet or something!!!

Cheers.

WISJ

[Rosbif]

Then you'l be overqualified and nobody will want you because you have enough time to get hired somewhere else, and so not worth the risk of investing the training money in just to have you leave.
Remember also that by then, you'll have a JAR licence. This is not what Canadian Employers want to see, 'cos you would be more likely to find a better job right after the training. - and disappear !
-- So, you'll have to go work for a company that has a bond.-- Well, you won't need 5000 Hrs for that, especially not 2-3 years from now. -- Gets complicated, don't it?
BTW, you can get the JAR licences done Much cheaper in Florida these days. Don't line the wing commander's son's pockets in EU.
Cheers.

[goates]

bafanguy,

It is kind of interesting looking at the differences. Unlike the US, we don't spend much on our military and it shows when you look at what is happening. We have (feel free to correct me if anyone cares):
- about 30 Sea Kings
- maybe 20 Labrador helicopters
- a lot of Griffons (close to 100, but I can't remember)
- about 12 new EH-101s
- about 80 operational CF-18s
- 12 or 14 Arcturus/Argus patrol aircraft (think P-3 Orion)
- 30 or 40 C-130Es
- a couple Airbus A-300s
- some Buffalo, Twin Otter and other smaller transports
- a few Canadair Challengers

In the last couple of years we have grounded all of the CT-133s, and most of the CT-114s. The only new fixed wing aircraft we have been purchasing are the Challengers which the Prime Minister gets to use. When you look at the US and its 1100 F-16s alone, and you can see a bit of a difference. Westjet also doesn't seem to like air force pilots, so if thats where you want to go, avoid the air force.

This isn't meant to knock the air force as it is a great route for some people and will give them some great experience, but it isn't as much of a guarantee as in some countries.

whereisjohn,

You will probably have the right number of hours for Westjet, but they rely heavily on personal recommendations. So if you don't know many people in the company, or people who do, you will have trouble. They ask for 4000 hours, but most have 6000 or more. Some do get hired with just over 4000, but they have the right connections.

If you want to fly commercially in Canada, the best advice so far seems to be don't give up and be ready for a long, hard road (or maybe that should be approach).

goates

[Rosbif]

Actually, it's 5 xA310 combis, not A300's, and from what I heard, people used to have a pretty easy time transferring from them to the airlines. It's probably a bit harder now.
Cheers

[whereisjohn]

Thanks for the advice...

I was joking a bit with my comment about Westjet, but anyway, nonetheless, still would be a place, should I return to Canada, that I would like to look at. As far as the JAR licence in Florida, and to make things even more confusing, it sort of acts the same ways as possibly flying in the airforce does with how prospective employers view you. I've done my research with the training - I couldn't justify spending the money I have without doing so and one thing I have heard from many is that there are a lot of carriers in the EU, specifically the UK that frown on people who have accumulated most of their hours in the US... for what reason, I have no idea but that's what I've been told. Now of course I am sure there are exceptions as I believe Oxford (a leading flight training outfit in the UK) does most of their training in Florida or Texas - not sure which, and their graduates have a great reputation.

Either way, any route you choose there seems to be as many pros as there are cons! Too bad we couldn't just be told do this, do this, and do that and this is what you'll get out of it!

[equinox145]

It's all Time, Time, Time and Contacts. Do whatever helps you build time at the fastest rate. It will probably be the best paying option as well. I never went the instructing route but it is great for making contacts and those contacts will possibly be useful.
I started in the bush. Great for building time but lousy for making contacts. If I'd been married at the time I doubt it would have lasted.
The U.K. licence is expensive and a lot of hard work but it was the best investment I ever made. Having a Canadian ATR didn't mean a thing. I had over 7000 hours, most of it command, half of it turbo-prop command. I had to do the licence from scratch with the exception of the Signals exam. (The ME time was all flown in a country far far away.) The time did matter when it came to getting a job.
The U.K. is a happening place for aviation. So many people, so many places to go and so many natural and man made barriers.

[cargo boy]

What do the 'experts' out there in Canada reckon the chances are for a friend of mine who is about to marry his Canadian sweetheart. He's got about 6000 hours of which about 1700 are heavy turboprop and 3700 are jet (B767, B757, B737).

I told him to check out the Transport Canada website but they are slightly vague about foreign licence conversion when it comes to ATPL experience. Some of the written exams may have to be done again, specifically Air Law and he'll have to do a flight test and an IR to convert his JAA ATPL. I think his current type rating will also be recognised.

I told him that he'd be better off staying in the UK but he would prefer to raise his family in Canada. The number of jobs available for someone with his experience are very limited when compared to the UK and Europe but he's prepared to take a chance for the sake of his lifestyle and the great open spaces of Canada.

Comments or advice from anyone who has gone down that route recently would be appreciated. PM if necessary for more information.

[IMC99]

My advice would be to commute to Europe.

You make more money and work less. Why bother slagging around Canada for 16 days a month when you can go Cargolux for 10 days a month and commute.

MO MONEY, not to mention a good a lifestyle.

Tell him the grass is always greener - see above post ;)

[ArcherII]

Very interesting thread. I got an FAA PPL, and currently study in the US. This thread confirms the fact that Canada is not all that better than US in the aviation market. They both have the same tendencies.

It's funny, cause I got an idea of how the job market is from online forums like this one, both for US and Canadian markets.

Everybody says that you gotta work for almost no money, be patient, and stick to it if you want to survive, and that the market is pretty horrible.

Pretty much they all say you gotta instructo for ca couple of years, build time...and then get that cargo job or charter job if you're like after a couple of eons of searching for it, then work like a slave night and day, for almost free till you build some more time...(thousands of hours) till you can apply for a turboprop job...

basically a long and hard road...with very little hope at the beginning, always a chance of getting furloughed with a kick in the but....always changine locations...and better not have a family for a while...

it's a sad tale I heard many times over...it's hard to look into the eyes of a teenager who is eager to become a pilot because he/she loves it soo much, and tell them that they probably won't find a job easily, they have to pay boat-loads of money to train, not to mention sweat.

about the conversion to JAA, I'll be doing this eventually.

From my research and form what I know as of right now, the best path for ICAO licence holders is to get as much flight time as possible, where it's cheaper than Europe...

that's my plan, finish up my FAA IR, build as much cross country, instrument, PIC time as possible...eventually get my multi and get multi engine time...

then when I have 3 or 400 hours, and some 100 hours multi, go to UK, do some 20 or 30 hours or hoever much it takes to get comforable in European airspace, take the ATPL exams, and get the JAA CPL/IR...

...and look for jobs...

Archer