Another Instructing Question

[High Wing Drifter]

Hello all,

Regarding Mazzy's thread on instruction and coupled with the probable difficulties of someone like me getting a decent Airline career going; well it got me thinking a little bit (yes - occasionally it does happen!) about the possible path(s) that I may take enroute:

If I wanted to make my alternate instructing, could I be realistically employed as an instructor without an IR too? I know that there is no theoretical nor legal need but I imagine it could possibly, under specific circumstances, add to the flexibility of being able to take a student to a clear bit sky, etc.

Cheers,
HWD.

[FlyingForFun]

I've flown with several instructors without an IR - can't see it as a problem at all.

An IMC rating would be useful for an instructor.... if you want to get a student to a clear bit of sky, you're probably not going to be flying airways. But even without an IMC rating, I can't see any reason not to get into PPL instructing.

FFF
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[High Wing Drifter]

FFF,

Thanks for the response. I guess I am asking partly because I have never met an instructor without an IR, but you have put me right on that count so good :)

I didn't relealise you could use an IMC for public transport ops. For some reason I thought it could only be attached, in a manner of speaking, to a PPL. Thanks for the pointer.

Cheers,
HWD.

[FlyingForFun]

HWD,

Remember that, in the days prior to JAR, a UK CPL came with an automatic IMC - so there's a huge flaw in your logic there!

Also worth pointing out, since it's vaguely on-topic, that an IMC or an IR is a requirement for becoming an IMC instructor.

FFF
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[mazzy1026]

Glad to see this view going on !

Whats it like these days getting an instructor job ? If you can get a job at your airfield like washing aircraft etc and do all your training there - do you think the chances of instructing there would be a good one ?

Lee:)

[High Wing Drifter]

Remember that, in the days prior to JAR, a UK CPL came with an automatic IMC - so there's a huge flaw in your logic there!
Hehe. I wouldn't know about none of that stuff. I am a product of the JAR age...nothing more :)

[Artificial Horizon]

I instructed very successfully for two years without ever holding an IR. I did the basic IMC rating and once I had 100 hours instructing upgraded to an IRI instructor which allowed me to teach the IMC rating. Gained loads of great IMC flying which made my IR a little more straight forwards.

So you don't need the IR but I would certainly recommend at least having the IMC rating as you will find you self in situations where having an IMC rating really helps.:)

[High Wing Drifter]

Thanks AH, that's good to know and yet another argument for getting an IMC too :cool:

[BEagle]

You will be in competition with others for a FI job once you get your FI(R) rating. Not having an IMC rating will be a distinct disadvantage....I certainly wouldn't ever employ a new FI(R) who hadn't got an IMC rating or an IR.

[TheSilverFox]

Hi HWD.

I suspect that you did your PPL training with us and your are correct, all of our Instructors have Instrument ratings. Not all Schools or Clubs operate this policy, however, I do think that you would find it very difficult to secure a position without at least an IMC rating.

As you know we also run CPL & I/R courses as well as an Air Charter business and we do operate a policy of promotion from within, therefore an Instrument rating is essential for our Instructors to progress to advanced training or charters (The sooner the better as I could do with some time off !!!).

The reason that most schools would prefer you to have an IMC rating (even though you would only be teaching the PPL course at first) is that it would be far to restrictive without one. There will be times when could go ahead with a PPL ex with your student if you could position yourself into an area of good VMC utilising the privilages of your IMC. (Imagine how your student would feel if all of the other Instructors were flying with their students but you were not able to! (By the way, I'm not suggesting that you should fly with your students in inappropriate weather conditions!)

Why don't you pop down to the School and have a chat and hopefuly I can clarify any queries that you might still have.

Just before I sign off, a quick word to FFF reference his/her response to your post. Not a particularly helpful attitude FFF pointing out a HUGE FLAW IN LOGIC! particularly when your response is also flawed. The CAA CPL did not have an IMC rating automaticaly attached! You were required to have at least an IMC rating (or I/R) in order to have the licence issued in the first place and when it was the IMC rating was not attached to the licence. The licence itself allowed IMC privilages to be excercised!

No prizes for trying to score points on this forum FFF!

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks for the correction, SilverFox. I'm a JAA person - always good to learn about the old CAA system, almost everything I know about it is purely from heresay now that it's been replaced.

As for the "huge flaw in your logic" comment - yes, I agree that in retrospect it could be construed as being unhelpful, but I think HWD took it in the lighthearted sense in which I intended it, so I don't feel the need to apologise to him - just to be more careful about how I phrase things on a forums where it's very easy to misinterpret someone's intentions :ok:

Very interesting to hear people say that they wouldn't employ instructors without an IMC rating or IR. I hadn't considered that point of view before, but it makes perfect sense. And, now I think about it, I can't think of any instructors I've met who I've known haven't had one or the other.

FFF
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[Capt. Manuvar]

I think an IMC should be a prerequisite for an FI license. This is because the PPL syllabus involves some instrument training. I don't think this very important aspect of the training can be carried out by someone who isn't licensed to at least IMC standards. Preferably I will prefer IR-rated instructors if I were a flying school owner.
Capt. Manuvar

[Field In Sight]

Capt. Manuvar,

Part of the FIC is how to teach simple instrument flying (and we know it is not simple).

I first emphasise how difficult flying on instruments is without further training before moving on to the required 180 degree turn. See how long it takes to develop an unusual attitude with the right amount of distraction.

Also, I teach from a field with no IAP (unfortunately) so having an IR does not allow me to "get it back down".

BTW I have a lapsed IMC rating, current FAA IR, soon to gain JAR IR.
Personally, It is not much use operationally to me having an instrument rating, but I do feel better equipped to instruct the dangers of instrument flight and I feel better prepared to fly in less than perfect weather.

[African Drunk]

Spme schools prefer instructors without IR's as they percieve they will not be able to leave as easily for the airlines.

[expedite_climb]

Of all the instructors I know, and have known over the years I'd say few have IR's. If they do they are very active on the market for an airline job!

I myself have a Multi-crew IR, but not a single pilot IR, so I when I instruct occaisionally it is with the IMC priveledges of my ATPL.

I agree though - if it isnt these days the IMC should be a pre-requisite for the FIC course.

[mazzy1026]

Sorry but I am having a stupid memeroy loss moment here - am I right in saying that you MUST have a CPL before you can get the FI ?

Lee:confused:

[Stoney X]

No, you can get an FI before a CPL but you can not get paid for instructing until you get a CPL. The number of P1 hours required before starting the FI course is higher if you don't have a CPL.

Regards
Stoney X

[mazzy1026]

What is meant by P1 and how many hours will be required for the FI if the CPL aint done ?

[Stoney X]

P1 = pilot in command i.e. not dual.

You need 150 P1 hours before starting the FI course if you don't have a CPL. If you do have a CPL then it's 100 P1 hours.

Have a look at LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF) , it will answer all your questions!

Regards
Stoney X

[mazzy1026]

Stoney - cheers mate. I have been having a blonde day today :p