Why is the RAF obsessed with status??

[round&round]

Having taken a general overview of Pprune and the RAF at large, I can't help but feel that we are an organization that is obsessed by status. A considerable number of comments here involve an element of branch/role/ac snobbery. I know much of this is light banter but there is, nevertheless, an unmistakable trend.

Why is at that Harrier pilots look down on other FJ pilots, who then look down on ME pilots. All the pilots look down on Navs who in turn think that AE's are lesser beings. Anyone who flys thinks their superior to anyone who doesn't so the ground trades have a hierarchy all of there own. At the bottom of this imaginary ladder I reckon sit Movers or the RAF Police. Society is far flatter now in terms of status, perhaps because footballer and plumbers earn so much, so why is the RAF still obsessed? Are we really such a shallow bunch that we cannot appreciate each others worth??? Just a personnal observation, but there you go.

[Bo Nalls]

Guess you must be a mover or a plod then :E :E

[5 Forward 6 Back]

On the flying side, surely it's because you're assessed all the time? Get better scores, go jets. Get better scores, go Harrier; by definition, those on other jets or other streams aren't as good?

Might not be the truth (not on front line; don't hit me) but that certainly seems to be the perception.

[WorkingHard]

R&R I believe this goes back a long long way and is I am afraid just a small mirror of the society that used to exist in England. The preservation of this hierarchy still exists because so many promotions or selection criteria are not always based on ability. Couple that with the perception that the level of competence and/or intelligence is judged by the badges of rank and you have your answer. You need only look at the seemingly crass decisions that are made on a daily basis and no one dares to challenge them to see that this still works.

[FFP]

I would agree. There does seem to be a hierachy and a false one at that. I remember being at Valley and backseating a trip before starting my course. When asked by a guy who flew Harriers what I wanted to fly, I relpied with GR4`s. When he asked why I was only aspiring to be second best, I started to re think things as this was the kind of person I was going to spend my life working with.

Now that guy was an arse. No doubt. On the other hand I`ve worked with people of all trades and some of the Navs , Air Engineers, Movers and Police that you mention have more personality, social skills and approachablility (?) in their little fingers than some of those guys. But you do get Harrier mates who as well as being extremely good pilots are bloody nice blokes. They are the ones I really hate :ok:

There is no doubt in my opinion that the FJ environment breeds that attitude, a somewhat "sorry your not flying what I am" and it isn`t until you are away from it that you realise it. I have many friends that couldn`t give 2 sh!t$ what I do in the RAF and to be with them is 10 times better than the mess environment.

It also sounds a silly thing to say but after going through the trg system and wanting to fly all my life, I realise that flying isn`t the be all and end all. I see a lot of people to whom the RAF and flying is everything. A narrow view on life and dangerous for when it may all go wrong.

I think there`s nothing better than sitting on a flight deck with as many people as you can fit on it, bantering because you know it is banter and talking about everything and anything other than flying (yes, I know you are actually flying at the time but you know what I mean :rolleyes: )

I also think that the only people who get wound up by the perceived hierachy are those that believe in it so much that they think the aren`t at the top !!!!

To summarise, I don`t care what you do. I think there are many FJ aircrew who aren`t happy and many police/movers who couldn`t be happier. Where`s the hierachy now ?

[Mr C Hinecap]

As a self confessed dweller near the bottom of the pond (quite happy thanks) I have experienced much of this elitism.
Every trade & Branch looks upon the rest as not good enough. It is banter & there are many things we don't understand of each others work, so we banter. There are these differences because different jobs require different skills/attitudes/aptitudes. You get the 'top down' view here because it is largely an aircrew forum. Us scum are here as interested parties who seek knowledge and a damn good banter. I think there are put-downs for pretty much every Branch & Trade. My fave from a Ginger Beer brother:
'You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you'll never train him to fix it!'

I understand much of the aircrew superiority - seriously! I'd probably have a different view of the world if someone paid me to strap twenty million quids worth of the biggest boy's toy to my ar$e and go punch holes in the sky, only to land, throw the keys to a bloke, tell him what needs tweaking and head for tea & medals! Glib but makes for a different view on things.:ok:

They may look down on me, but they'll never find me looking up at them. :E

[MobiusTrip]

Genuinely looking down upon those 'below' (however you define that) you is a symptom of an over inflated sense of self importance/pride or whatever you wish to call it.

I shamefully admit to being one of 'those' in my younger years (much younger!). I think it is mainly instilled in pilots by the system - if enough dudes keep going on about how much better their group (which you are a part of) is than others, then it can sort of subliminally work into your attitude.

I think as you get older and have 'been there' a bit, that the big (true) picture comes into view. Some people just don't WANT to do the job we do, some people just CAN'T - I don't think it matters, I really don't. I am grateful that I enjoy my job, but however cool it is, it doesn't make me better than anyone else - unless, of course, I am on pint number 8 and ladies are present :-)


Right, back to the beach and my cocktail.... oh wait....

MT

[Vage Rot]

I agree with all that has gone before in this thread and can offer a reason for the snobbery and arrogance - not and excuse, just a reason - Going to take some grief for this but here goes!

As FJ or helo or multi aircrew, in war you are likely to have to fly into a situation where you are probably not going to come home.

1. If you didn't believe in your own ability then you wouldn't do it - there's the reason for single seat arrogance!

2. If you didn't believe you were the best then you wouldn't do it - there's everyone elses' reason!

If you had an annual competition between blanket stackers as to who could stack the most/fastest/best then the winner would be a little proud and arrogant - and rightly so, it's a competition. We all fought hard in the competition to become aircrew and we have a right to be proud that we've done it. Some go too far-granted but not very many make it so why not be proud. If others envy then they can follow - not bitch.

I never look down on anyone, everyone has a place and a role but if someone isn't happy in their role then change it - don't moan.

Unfortunately, there's not enough flex for everyone to get pissed, poke fingers and have a laugh anymore - THAT was the benefit of Cheap Beer, Sqn barrels, happy hour, all ranks clubs etc!

You cant be 100% PC if your job is to kill people - lets not forget that is our job!

[MobiusTrip]

Vage,

I do believe there is a place for pride - pride in your sqn, pride in your achievements. What I was referring to was an 'over inflated' sense of pride.

MT

[Stray Fin]

It is only human to have a competitive edge, and it is, also, a necessity of the job to believe in one's own ability.
However, I have to agree with WorkingHard - within our ranks there is an arrogance which I believe is more deep-seated than just an over-zealous belief in one's own capabilities. Having seen aircrew from a fair number of other nations at work, and having spent most of my life abroad, I do believe that the view held by many aircrew in the UK of others, particularly ground trades, lies within the class system that this nation has attempted to rid itself of.
I am aware that there is a large percentage of RAF aircrew who come from modest backgrounds, so it is can no longer be linked to “birthrights”, but the mentality still lingers.
Unfortunately, this has the result of ground trades resenting aircrew, regardless of how “normal” you might be. And having seen how some of us “master-race” talk to them, I’m not surprised. Surely we can’t be surprised at the lack of cohesion between trades, when this perceived differential exists.
This will not entirely explain the arrogance of Harrier mates, and if this is indeed the root of arrogance towards the ground-trades, it will not be resolved in the near future.

[Vage Rot]

Stary F

Couldn't agree more. Avery good friend of mine was posted to a FJ station recently. quote "If i'd met this lot first I'd have thought you were all ******s!"

I fear it's the same situation as the squaddies night out. You cant tell somebody he's the best, train him to fight and not give a sh1t about his own safety then expect him to go out and not fight over a girl. Ditto aircrew - we're told from day one that we're the best, fortunately, some of us are human and when the ground crew get to know you they lighten up and realise that not everyone with a green bag is a to55er.

I'm fortunate, was a back end captain of a multi-engine ac - regular dets with ground crew aboard and had a top, relaxed time. was just playing devil's advocate and giving the reasons as perceived by me!

[hoofhearted]

I'm afraid it all boils down to the monkeys climbing a tree syndrome.
When you're at the top looking down, all you can see is smiling faces.
When you're at the bottom looking up, all you can see is ar@e-holes.

We're all on the same team and if ever you find that your head is stuck too far up somewhere it shouldn't be, try reading "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum. A very brave man, a great pilot and dare I say, a gentleman.

Master race, my :mad:

[NURSE]

I do love the RAF's snobbery it makes the army seem 'normal'.

Had a RAF student working with me a few years back who went on about Traditions in the RAF one of the WO's put it beautifully. The Army and the Navy have been around for long enough to have traditions. The RAF on the other hand have habits that in 100-200 years may become traditions.

[Blacksheep]

S'funny you should mention Geoff Wellum, hoof,

Read the captions to the photos and you'll see his fellow pilots Titch and Ginge and Sailor, good old Bob and Sergeant This and Flight Sergeant That. His own ground crew do have knicknames but I doubt if he knew the first names of anyone else's or those on 2nd line Servicing. All groundcrew conversation is written down in "Cockney" or northern oik. It was another world, another time and nothing wrong with that; its just the way it was. People from backgrounds like Geoff Wellum were blissfully unconscious of it.

Nevertheless, the traditional viewpoints linger on and probably nothing will ever change - it's already become part of the service's 'tradition' I'm afraid. I visited a Royal Navy ship in port locally and a Lieutenant in the marine engineering branch, was kind enough to conduct me around his combined home and workplace. I couldn't help noticing how this officer's relations, and indeed those of his fellow officers, with the crew members that we met during the tour, differed from those I experienced in the RAF and that, unchanged until today, now form the point under discussion.

I suppose the difference In the Royal Navy is that everyone is, as it were, in the same boat.

[Oggin Aviator]

I suppose the difference In the Royal Navy is that everyone is, as it were, in the same boat.
If you are serving at sea (not just limited to the RN these days) and you lose your ship, you lose your home.
If you are serving on an airbase, and it gets attacked, you don’t necessarily lose your home. Furthermore, most airfields the light blue fly into or out of on ops usually belong to friendly host nations, hence the ethos to be really worried about your immediate surroundings and hence respect your oppo, peer, superior or subordinate is diminished somewhat.
I would wager that should there be a real, direct military threat to the RAF's UK airfields (apart from the current political one) this ethos would change radically. It happened in 1940 and the Crabs did a bl00dy good job :ok:
In the RN it is truly a team effort, from the able seaman cheesing down (:p) the berthing ropes to the Captain with the ultimate responsibility. Plus we all have to co exist in a metal box for vast amounts of time. (I'm sure the same sort of mutual respect occurs in your multi crew platforms such as the E3 and the Mighty Hunter).
But hey, keep smiling :D you are not all bad!

Oggin

[Mr C Hinecap]

Nurse: At least we can get into any job in the RAF without Daddy having done it first and/or having the proper breeding/school/private income/limited gene pool/quantity of Hampshire owned by family! We can also decide when we want to wear a jumper and not rely on a shouty man to let us know! :p

To further my point of strapping a big boy's toy to your ar$e etc. Any Multi or Rotary crew is mixed and operates that way constantly - a small team. FJ sqns seperate the operators from the rest. Why should a young jockey be concerned about others? Since he entered his professional training it seems to me to be a fairly introspective world. Your training & your job is about you and your ability. Those around you are the same with the same concerns. Once you reach Sqn Ldr, then you might have some (very few, well paid intelligent, motivated) people to look after. If you get to be a Sqn Cdr, most of the troops are looked after by SEngO. Not judging here - just putting forward a personal theory on things.
Those who enter the world at a different point usually have flights to look after. There you spend much of your time looking beyond your own arm span and usually at other human beings, perhaps not your equals in many things, but with a valuable job to do. We are all different, with different things to do. SACs look down on aircrew sometimes - give us a beer and we're all friends. :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

R & R

I think you are absolutely spot on in what you say, and whilst it does occur within the non commissioned aircrew world, it is without doubt a major problem amongst the Officer cadre.

My most satisfying moment on SAR was pulling a FJ pilot from the frozen north sea many years ago now. The guy, who by coincidence came from the same station as my big yellow egg whisk, was without doubt a complete to$$er. Despised by his fellow officers and probably by his own groundcrew, it was left to a humble FS airman aircrew to save this guys neck.

The morale of this story is that we are all experts in our own right and dicipline, and whenever I hear FJ crews telling everyone just how wonderful they are, I simply point out that one day, they will need the skill and expertise (and bravery to a degree) of a humble Sgt, FS etc to save their bacon. It usually shuts them up - for a while at least!

Regards and respect to ALL our SAR boys and girls - I wish above all else I was still with you but the years hath taken their toll on the old body, sadly.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Flap62]

There are elements creeping into this thread which represent exactly what is wrong with society. There is a perception in society (and certainly in the airline I now fly for) that we are all equal. Wrong. The Air Force is a meritocracy not a fluffy tree hugging liberal commune. Now that is not to say that anyone has the right to "look down" on anyone else. If that is the case then it reflects a flaw in the individual's character rather than an endemic problem in the pilot community.

Several uninformed contributors have highlighted the "arrogance" of harrier pilots. Having worked very happily in that atmosphere I can say that it is no worse and a lot better than many FJ environments for egos (F3 ocu for one!!). Yes there is arrogance but people have worked damned hard to get where they are. Why should they accept that someone who didn't have the same talent or who plain didn't put in as much effort in training now turns round and says "well you're no better than me really!"

As to the attitude of the flat-stoners who say "why should pilots look down on OC MT or whatever". The long and the short of it is that you could never do their job, but they can do yours if they had to (or OC catering or whatever). This means that not everyone is equal. Accept it, it's painful I know, but they are better than you.

FFP - you really do come across as a thoroughly repellant individual. It's apparent from your post (wanted GR4, now like a big flight deck) that you were chopped and have a chip on your shoulder. You weren't good enough, accept it and get on with your life. You would do well to remember that the role of the RAF is to fight. That means people putting their lives on the line whether it be FJ, multi, rotary, Regt, Officers, SNCOs and Airmen. The rest is support. If you enjoy waffling along bantering and don't care too much about flying I pray that some day you are never called upon to put yourself on the line. This job is for people who are serious and focused and I fear that the chip on your shoulder is probably matched by a yellow streak down your back.

[Huron Topp]

This job is for people who are serious and focused and I fear that the chip on your shoulder is probably matched by a yellow streak down your back.

Well Flaps, I believe with this comment, you may have sunk to an all-time low and really shown the attitude that created this thread.:mad: Give yer head a shake, man.

[Muppet Leader]

Cobblers.

It is all about breeding, accent, the old school tie and funny handshakes behind the bike shed.
My reasoning is below.

My parents split up when I was three years old, so I was brought up by my Mum and step Dad.
Step dad had a shoe shop, and mum worked for AV Roe & Sons.
I have a strong Northern accent.
Working class!

Visited real Dad every other weekend on the estate, with staff etc, and then got driven home by the chauffeur on a Sunday night.
Upper class!

Left school at 16 and joined up as an airman.
Worked through the system from LAC up through the ranks until discharge.
Gone through the rest of my life knowing my position / status, and got on with and enjoyed, every minute of it.
I’m working class.

Three years ago, my natural Father died. Me, only child. Guess where it all went?

I work now because I want to and I enjoy it, not because I have to.
All members of my household staff, and my family are on first name terms.
My family and I are no better that my staff.
They do the job they do because they want to.
If I could I could run the farms properly and profitably, I would do it myself.
I can’t, I know very little about it, so I employ several estate managers to do it for me.

We all have limits. We all have different limits in different fields.
Like one of my carpenters. Great lad, but can barely read and write. Get him down to the bookies, and he can work the odds out in his head as quick as a flash.

My point I suppose is this; you do what you do because you can.
It doesn’t mater if it is for the money, the prestige, the girls, or even if you actually enjoy your job, whatever it is you do.

The bits that you can’t, or are not capable of doing, someone else has to do for you.

Apart from wealth, we are all equal.


:ok:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Well, well, well. Perhaps Flap WAS that short, arrogant get on Shifty Fix that I only met 3 times. Every time he was drunk in the Mess Bar and 3 times he told me it was a shame I was blunt. 3 times I restrained myself from dragging his scrawny neck outside. Perhaps there will be a fourth time with a different ending!
You are confusing talent and hard work too. I know some people that have talents, but if they are wasted it is a shame. I also know some people that have put every effort into making whatever rank they get to - be it SAC or whatever. I know that they are better people and better to have around.

I know I am not equal to any other man and I know the only equal right I have is to prove I am unequal to someone else. Why are aircrew 'better' than me? They are DIFFERENT! Different skills - different shape body (all short). Not all aircrew are :mad: :mad: but do you have to make up for the good guys? Sounds like someone who drives a 'taxi' cos he was not good enough for single seat!

[Flap62]

Mr C Hinecap


Go back and read my post. I specifically said that no one had the right to look down on anyone else.
I specifically did not comment on the groundcrew and specialists that fix highly complex kit. I mentioned OC MT because I could do their job. I could not do the specialists job and therefore did not mention it. If you look again you might also notice that when mentioning the primary role of the Air Force I did not place restrictions on a\c role or rank.

To reach front line FJ requires a great deal of talent and hard work and as such most people I know in that position would respect anyone who has a similar talent and work ethic, whatever their rank. That does not mean that they have to consider them equals.

You will find most people in front line FJ appointments have very little time for people with lots of talent who do little work or hard workers with little ability.

If you look back to the long summer of 1940 I am sure you will find no shortage of elitism and perhaps more than a touch of arrogance - it didn't seem to do them too much harm, although if the shop steward mentality often displayed on these pages had been in evidence then, I dare say I'd be slapping my lederhosen and breaking wind to the tune of Horst Wessel.

p.s. no idea what shifty fix means!

[FFP]

Flaps62,

Good one. I haven't laughed so much in ages !

For a start, I fully agree with Huron Topp. To say that you've made yourself look like an arrogant, ill informed tw@t is putting it mildly. Not my words, but to be honest I couldn`t have put it better myself.

Firstly, to come up with the good old "chip on shoulder" and "yellow streak" without knowing me or what someone has done is a pretty ballsy move. Enough said. Don't need to justify myself to you.

Secondly, how you deduced all that crap from my pretty down the line post is genius ! You even say yourself some places have inflated egos. So does that mean you have a chip on your shoulder about them ? Course not.

I even stood up for Harrier pilots in my post !!! Maybe it was that comment about Harrier pilots that are also good lads that made you assume I hated them ? Didn't detect the sarcasm ? It seems that everyone else did.To put it plainly, chap, some of my mates fly Harriers and I admire that they have keep their egos firmly on the ground whilst being the aggressive front line pilot they are there to be.

Bet there wasn't a sqn w@nker when you were there ? That'd explain it.

And finally you seem to have missed the entire point of my post that it doesn`t matter at the end of the day what job you do !! So to say I need to get over it, lose the chip, realise that people lay their lives on the line etc etc is classic !!Go patronise someone else. My post clearly stated that my thoughts and feelings are above that narrow minded view of life.

Still not making sense ? Probably time to step back and chill out. You're going for the wrong guy.

And one final thing fella . Try posting in a manner and style that fits with the maturity and common sense someone in your position should have ;)

[Frogbox]

There appears to be some tempers flaring at the mo'. I guess for 'Shifty Fix' read F3 OCU, who are my all time greats. Worked with lots of foreign nations and have found the F15C drivers to be the most amenable. Sadly the French strike me as too over-enthusiastic, and somewhat lacking in airspace awareness, although good fun.

I find the jags, GR4s, Hawks and indeed the Harrier force equally thankful for the service we provide.

Lookin forward to lprovidin GCI for Typhoon which should be a hoot. In the meantime can we all play nicely or am I providing a distraction?

Rgds

F

[Flap62]

I started to re think things as this was the kind of person I was going to spend my life working with.

Ballsy move making generalisations about the Harrier force from one guy !!! The guy you flew with only asked you why you wanted to fly something second best! Perfectly fair comment if you ask me.

You say that the best thing in the world is sitting on a flight deck with lots of people bantering about non flying things. Funny. From my recollections the best afternoons were spent at LL through the highlands then bantering in the coffee bar or happy hour about non flying things. But then you probably don't want to tax yourself too much fella.

By the way smart move to drop in the bit about lots of mates who don't care about the air force - makes you look windswept and interesting.

[FFP]

Still missing the point mate.! I don't really care how you spent your afternoons. You write it as if you are thinking to yourself "That`ll wind him up !!!" All these people who post on here or read it are thinking " THIS is the type of guy this thread was started about".

Probably a fair point about making an assumption on one guy. Maybe a bit premature and hasty. I`ll admit to that.

Don't think I said it was the best thing in the world being on a flight deck talking about something other than flying. Maybe didn't phrase it correctly. Point I was making was that it's quite refreshing to be in an environment where flying wasn't everything .

And if you think I write things about friends on a forum which is annonymous to appear windswept and interesting then I really do pity you chap.

Just to clarify. The guy I flew with asked why I was only aspiring to be second best. You are saying that those who don't fly Harriers are second best ?

Not trying to start an ongoing argument here just trying to put things straight. You want to continue finding things from my posts on which you can turn around, comment against and argue on feel free. You`ll be on your own.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Flaps old fella,

Might I suggest you partake in a couple of beers then re read your posts:ok:

You might find the alcohol and the ensuing numbing effect that consumption inevitably brings will allow you to see just how others could find you tone rather offensive:rolleyes:

You do come accross a tad on the arrogant side, and i have no doubt that a mere balders like myself will no doubt suffer for having the temerity to make such a suggestion, but have another look at your words...........then, and I now this will be hard but do your best, try and imagine a time when you where you are not the best of the best and see what feelings you written words here might give rise too.

None of the above has any offensive meaning to it, I just like to think that with 30 years service behind me, I can sometimes offer the occasional word of wisdom to someone who is ever so slightly missing the point:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Pontius Navigator]

Here's my tuppence. I think the 56 ****er that I knew was another one <g> a bully certainly.

Years ago, a MEng pointed out the difference between officer aircrew and airmen aircrew: One read the Daily Telegraph, had 5 O-levels and applied for a commission. The other read the Daily Mirror, had 4 O-levels and applied for airmen aircrew. All because the Air Ministry placed different ads in different papers. They still do.

More later.

IMHO, aircrew are different because they have to be physically fit, have the aptitude to do the job and then undergo 2-3 years training before they become productive. They do not have to be overly bright hence the old 5 O-levels and later 2 A-levels.

Air Traffickers and Fighter Controllers are very similar to pilots and navs. They too need aptitude but do not need to be as ohysically fit. It is a truism that failed aircrew do not become air traffickers or fighter controllers.

Engineers may have aircrew aptitude but are generally cleverer. They generally need a degree and that goes for a few others such as P Ed, Ed, Medic, Dental.

The admin and supply generally do not have the aircrew aptitude and are often populated by those who are not physically fit or who are chopped aircrew.

Finally, addressing the pilot/nav divide. Again in MHO pilots tend to be instinctive, tactically aware and spontaneous. Navs, OTOH, tend to think more strategically. They can plan ahead and consider the longer term plan.

It follows that the Harrier shag has to do both! As indeed does the Jag guy. The Tornado has a shared load but the ME guys have a whole team to play with.

The aptitude, selection, training, job all mold the man.

Aircrew will take chances. Air Traffickers will stick to the rules and so on.

[Bill O'Average]

Fer **** sake. A bleedin Crab lovin!

'My todgers bigger than yours bollox'.

Have a nice night gents.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh "wrinkled willy" , one can always rely on you to pop in with a few words of "Bamber Gascoign" proportions, and really keep things on track:ok:

Thanks fella and have a great weekend:rolleyes:


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Bill O'Average]

**** me ABIW, check colour state, over.........!:hmm:
Not heard of the Doctors oath??

Just clarify what position you sit in? I thought this was a pilot bitchfest, not an also ran issue?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Folks we always need someone like Wrinkled Willy to point us in the right direction:ok:

Have a truely great weekend wrinkled willy:p

We love you fella':E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[TheNightOwl]

I'm a tad puzzled about all the angst being displayed on this subject. I did my 22 as an airman, left a Chief 'cos there was no promotion in my trade. During my time, and I know this was an attitude prevalent in the tech ranks, I couldn't give a stuff about who was "higher" or "lower" than me, be he/she commissioned or otherwise. My respect was always aimed at the bod who did what was needed, when it was needed, and no more. I never, at any time, had the wish to fly, I thoroughly enjoyed my work in Avionics and continued it when I left the Mob and came here to live. My pride was in the satisfaction of seeing my aircraft leave base in the best possible condition I could achieve, and return the same way, who was in the cockpit was none of my concern. All I was concerned with was the fact that the crew would return safely but, if not, then the cause would not be laid at my door through negligence on my part. The same as any other, flyer or not, pride in my work was my motivation!
Anyone who wishes to fly aeroplanes, be they FJ, ME, RW or whatever, is welcome to it, I'm happy doing what I do, BUT DOING IT WELL. If any person wishes to look down on me 'cos I don't fly, good on him, I don't care, he is the one with the problem. I spent time on squadrons, as well as in sim centres, and had the odd social intercourse with the officer ranks. I found that, as long as the proprieties were observed, on both sides, things stayed on an even keel, which suited me fine. What a great many officers forget, pilots as well as groundies, is that when they have come to their momentous decisions, it's the ground staff who have to get things done. Officer ranks, as well as Other ranks, have a well-established hierarchy, and that is as it should be.
I was once told, in Sharjah, by a very young "steely-eyed killer", that my "sole function in life was to tend to his needs". When I finally stopped laughing, I pointed out to him that I was there to tend to the needs of the aeroplane, what he did was of no consequence to me at all, as long as he didn't bend my aircraft!
Gentlemen, we all have our individual place and function, but if it takes the attitude of superiority over the attempts of others to enable you to function usefully, then perhaps a couple of steps backwards and a few moments of dispassionate assessment might be in order to take a reality check.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[MobiusTrip]

Spot on NightOwl.

:ok:

"Live long and prosper"

MT

(I'd almost given up on this thread as my Arrogometer was at full deflection)

'Vacuum' - a nice word. I don't mean anything by that, I just genuinely think it's a nice word.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Flaps

As to the attitude of the flat-stoners who say "why should pilots look down on OC MT or whatever". The long and the short of it is that you could never do their job, but they can do yours if they had to (or OC catering or whatever). This means that not everyone is equal.


Trust me - with an attitude like that, there is no way on God's green earth that you could ever be an OC MT!

Contrary to what you may think, the 'rest' of us didn't all join the RAF to fly things, so we're not all failed single seaters. Never saw the attraction in flying really. Sure - looks interesting, exciting etc but not my cuppa really. I'm more interested in the people I work with and move around than the tin can they move around in - land, sea or air-borne. Sorry if that shatters any illusion.

Do the people on Shifyt Fix not even know thay are called that?! Bless.
:ugh:

[Otis Spunkmeyer]

Actually....

http://www.raf.mod.uk/squadrons/h_images/56sqncrst.gif

Chicken in a Basket

[Jobza Guddun]

NightOwl, I think you've called it exactly how the majority of techies think and operate. Can't really speak for other branches or trades but the majority seem to have a similar outlook.

We have all experienced the type of people this thread is about, for me its always been aircrew - techy with the odd run-in with regt or admin/sec. Clearly, the flyers here have had similar with fellow and senior aircrew. We all have our crosses to bear and when it comes down to it if we couldn't stand it anymore we'd go, right? Besides, is it not a real pleasure when you get your own back on an arrogant condescending git (in whatever world you circulate in)?

For what its worth, I recognise aircrew simply as people having a) the ability and b) the medical category to complete the relevant FTS / OCU courses. Not necessarily cleverer or with more common sense than me, but credit where credit's due. Anybody can learn to fly, but most people can't do it well enough in the time the RAF gives you.

There will never be equality of treatment in the military, it just doesn't work like that and we all know that. Some areas though need people taught to show a bit of respect to juniors, and basic bloody good manners in general. Failing that, when they want something from me, they get the bare minimum I HAVE to give them and if its not enough, well, tough. (Officer or SNCO I hasten to add).

Have a good weekend eveybody.:ok:

[insty66]

Jobza
Of course night owl talks sense.................he was a Fairy after all:ok:

[BEagle]

Curiously, I noted once that it wasn't those with a public school background amongst the officers who were the chief protaganists of status. In fact, it was those who'd gained aircrew 'status' later in life having served elsewhere earlier in their careers. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the V-force, where ex-'hairies' were often inclined to throw their weight about. Similarly, some of the nastiest, pushiest senior officers it was my misfortune to come across were from relatively humble backgrounds - and had substantial chips on their shoulders. You don't seem to get this in the Army or Navy..

Was it that the public school chaps, having grown up in earlier, gentler years had a natural basic skill of working with others from a less privileged background without giving offence - or just that some in the other category were simply poachers turned gamekeepers?

There is no room for arrogance. As anyone who's ever kept a gun dog knows, mutual respect has to be earned - bullying and shouting is useless.

[Flap62]

Night Owl clarifies many of my points re people doing a job properly and earned respect. He also echoes my point about the people doing the looking down having the problem.

What some people here are doing is extrapolating from my posts Because I said that some are better than others, some irate posters have taken it that I would consider myself top of the tree. Wrong! In my past existance we were always ready to accept that there is always someone better than you (be it Cloggie F16's, occasional spam in an F something or whatever). No ego problems, no arrogance - just a healthy acceptance of your place in the pecking order.

As for Mr C (I think it was) - sorry chap, I'm not the bloke you were thinking of. Never been nearer an F3 than 300yds in his six.

[Pontius Navigator]

Question, slightly off topic but possibly relating to relationships.

We were bollocked for 'negative' attitude turning up at the aircraft, often after a 2-3 hour delay, with 5 hours of noise ahead of us. "Is it bust then chief?" we would ask hopefully.

The black hand gang had been labouring all day to get the heap of sh1t ready and we were demoralising them by trying to scrub without even getting in.

We asked the chief and it was quite different. No way did they want an 1800 launch on a Friday night, a 5 hour wait, and the inevitable sicky at 2300 with the rest of the weekend trying to get it up for Monday. Rather put it to bed serviceable at 1800 and let the other b*gg*rs try and kick it to life again on Monday.

The mission was to get the hours up the line by 5 hours and no more. Were we right or wrong?

Beagle,

I agree that some 'hairies' could be B awkward. Their modus seemed to be to preserve their new status. It was from the other school and could get p*ss*d with the groundcrew but still emerge with my status intact.

We had one boss "Beano" There'll be NO this, there'll be NO that. He objected us to calling the groundcrew by first names. We asked them : Chief or Ben? "If you call me Chief I know you can see my rank. If you call me Ben I know you know who I am!"

Ben it was.

[galaxy flyer]

Beagle:

Could my mum be right...

Freed slaves make the worst masters.

GF

[jayteeto]

Beagle, I did 8 yrs as a technician and 16 as a pilot. I would like to think that I was anything but the person you are describing. I know a lot of other 'hairies' and they were 'sensible' as well. I'm quite hurt by that.....sniff...... :sad:

[BEagle]

Please don't think for a moment that my comment was meant to imply that every 'hairy' was guilty of being a status-conscious character!

Some were, many weren't......

[Biggus]

By status I presume we are refering to "job/trade", e.g aircrew, techie, etc as opposed to rank?

However, an observation on history. The Battle of Britain is usually depicted in films as having been won by Officer pilots flying Spitfires. Whereas in actual fact it was mainly won by NCO pilots flying Hurricanes.

NCO pilots largely disappeared (so I am lead to believe) in the 60's with the arrival of the V bombers, "can't have NCO's in charge of the detergent don't you know...."! (and yes I did mispell it on purpose!!)

Wonder if Flap62 would have been as arrogant if he had been a Sgt flying Harriers? Narh!! Course he would!!!

[EESDL]

And there was me thinking that such an antisocial attitude as an over-inflated sense of pride/ego/importance was just a defence mechanisms for the idividual's numerous inadequacies!

[Chinese Vic]

I have served in the RAF for 17 years, half of which as an avionics technician and the rest as a commissioned officer. I tried my hand at flying but ultimately had a capacity lack - no regrets, and I enjoy my current role immensely. I have served on the front line for a majority of that time, on the Jaguar, Harrier, Tornado GR and Canberra forces and in general found the pilots/navs to be an approachable bunch with a healthy respect for those of us nailed to the ground but fulfilling important support functions.

However, Beagle et al, I have to take issue with the use of the term 'Ex-Hairy', the use of which is thoroughly repellent and offensive, whether offered in banter or not.
It is exactly that type of elitist arrogance that we are being criticised for!

I worked bl@@dy hard to get where I am from modest beginnings, and am proud of the achievement. I have considerably more than the '4 'O' levels' etc required to join the Officer Corps.

I first came across the term during IOT, from a snotty ex-UAS student officer who thought he had already gained his wings by merely turning up. He really couldn't understand why I found the term offensive and derogatory......he understood only when I suggested we retire to the rear of the Mess to sort it out 1 v 1!

I really don't care where the term originates - I just don't think it's appropriate these days.

CV:*

[BEagle]

".....he understood only when I suggested we retire to the rear of the Mess to sort it out 1 v 1!"

Hardly an officer like or even a mature attitude.

Why do you consider 'hairy' to be inappropriate? I've only ever heard it used in friendly banter, never as a term of derision.

'Green shielder' was the usual parry!

For complete and utter 'status' bull$hit, the comment made by a particularly wet Cranwell Flt Cdr to an ex-apprentice member of 14 GE that he had 'un-officer like facial bone structure' was hard to beat!

[Bill O'Average]

So a 'Hairy' calling aircrew a 'Growbag' is too harsh too?
Chinese, sorry that you are so sensitive.

I shall ensure no banter occurs between anybody ever again for fear of offending you.

And you've survived for 17 years?

[spekesoftly]

"Hairy" derogatory? nah! Term of respect, fear maybe, even endearment.

But I never did quite figure out if the term was derived from the uniform, or from excessively hirsute aged nether regions. ;)

[Chinese Vic]

Aaahh, so I was being over-sensitive and followed it up by being un-officerlike. My mistake!

Do you really think that the term isn't derisory?

Perhaps I should have mentioned the lengthy discussions I had with the individual referred to above where he refused to accept any point of view bar his own. According to his experience of, oh, two months, the term was used across the RAF for anyone commissioned from the ranks. In a bygone age, perhaps, but where did he get the idea? From a system which breeds an arrogant and outdated attitude to those who do not wear a brevet or flying badge....

I was surprised to see the term used on this thread - I had only previously encountered its use at Cranwell, and then only from the mouths of those students from the UAS system. It was nice to see that their instructors had prepared them fully for life in the RAF beyond their weekend flying club!

I accept that the final offer to the young chap was not a particularly mature thing to do, but it took the possibility of such a step to penetrate the chap's blinkered and arrogant perception of life in the RAF. I'm not one of the PC brigade, but if someone refers to me in a way I find offensive, I reserve my right to stand up for myself. Unofficer-like? I don't think so.

Perhaps in the earlier years of your service, BEagle, it was banter, but I would suggest those days are now gone - and I always thought banter was supposed to be witty...


CV

[Oggin Aviator]

Even in the fishead arena I know that a hairy is an RAF officer who has got commissioned from the ranks - just like a "Yardie" in my service. Most of them are awesome people who, having seen the other side of the coin,display leadership of the utmost quality. There are others, of course, who are different .....

.... a typical response from a bully is to resort to violence. In the situation described above, and as a holder of the Queen's Commission, you should have the intelligence to politely argue your point of view, or walk away, not threaten to beat 10 bells of sh*t out of someone.

Pathetic :yuk:

[Argus]

Back in the 60s, when I was but a callow youth in Betty Windsor's senior service, I remember meeting several RAF 'hairy' FLTLT QFIs, other pilots, air traffickers and simulator instructors, who had served as NCO aircrew during WW2.

Many were decorated (DFM etc) and had served in high risk occupations (eg Pathfinders) in Bomber Command.

I received much 'guidance and counselling' from these guys, most of it relevant and useful; and not all aviation based.

Don't recall any of them getting a tad testy about said term of endearment. Most were quite capable of holding their own in repartee, particularly the Scotsmen!

Wasn't Sir Frank Whittle a 'hairy'?

Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling the pud. If you're a career officer, you’ll never make squadron fuehrer by throwing temper tanties in or about the O’s Mess.

Better still, give the Cr@bs the ar$e and emigrate to Oz where you'll find the lack of a middle class based on 2 'A' levels makes for a more egalitarian way of life. Here, notwithstanding your alleged tert quals, people will tell you to your face that you’re a fu*kwit. And a fu*kwit with a PhD is still a fu*kwit!

[Biggus]

Chinese Vic

I first came across the term hairy when I went through Cranwell over twenty years ago - and no I wasn't a graduate of a 'weekend flying club'. A hairy was somebody commissioned from the ranks. Since they had been serving for years, and we had been in for days, they were a good source of knowledge and advice outside of the regular working hours and directing staff. They were usually made senior cadet (or whatever it was called) to start with, and most were more than willing to pass on some pearls of wisdom which we gratefully accepted. We had nothing but the outmost respect for them.

Indeed the one group of people I have come to have the most respect for in my 20+ years in the RAF (Flaps62 you arrogant Harrier jock - I hope you are reading this!) is ex-Halton apprentices. Whereever I have met ex-Halton guys, as pilots, crew chiefs, etc, I have never failed to be impressed by their knowledge, abiltiy, good humour and work rate. Now that was a brilliant training ground for guys that today still form the backbone of many parts of the RAF!

As for yourself Chinese Vic, I don't know if the use of the word hairy has changed over the years, but it sounds like you have a personal gripe with the individual concerned (using phrases like 'weekend flying club' implies you have a 'what do they know get some time in' attitude and a chip on your own shoulder). Rest assured, if the young man didn't have a bad image of 'hairys' before your conversation than he does now. You had the chance to educate him - you ellected not to take it. Maybe that says more about you, who should know better, than a young impressionable lad just starting off on his RAF career, wet behind the years, and with a lot to learn, and unlearn (and that includes during conversdations in the bar and mess) if anyone can be bothered to educate him rather than thump him!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Chinese Vic,

Oh Dear, you have got it bad old boy!
I am delighted to say that I too was a 'hairy' before I chose aircrew many years ago. It is NOT offensice, derisory or anything else remotely 'not nice' I regarded it affectionately as term of enderement, of which I was quite proud.
I regret you have taken offence but you realy need to lighten up - if that is all you have to worry about in your life, then you are doing OK I would suggest.

KInd regards to ALL past and present hairies - where we would be without you?

The Swinging Monkey
Caruthers, send Vic a bottle of Grouse and a portion of fried rice!

[Flap62]

Biggus - you're starting to sound a bit like a stuck record.

Go back and read my posts - I know in that position would respect anyone who has a similar talent and work ethic, whatever their rank.

[Biggus]

Flap62,

I didn't realise 'stuck records' were banned from pprune! In fact it is full of them:

WEBF - Turns every thread into 'lets save the SHAR'!

ABIW - Always makes infantile comments and talks arse!

MM - Always says how wonderful the E-3D is!

PhoneyTony - Tells us how wonderful AEOs are!

Stop Start - Always talks sense, with large amounts of humour thrown in! Always worth a read!

Flaps62 - Tells us how FJ pilots, especially single seat, are so much better than the rest of us mere mortals!

Biggus - Make your own mind up, that is your right Just do a search for all the threads I have made comments on. I think you will find that generally I am not repetetive or have an axe to grind! Except maybe with people who have an over inflated opinion of themselves!

[NoseGunner]

I think we've covered the hairy thing. Can we stop now and go back to harrier pilots?

I've never worked out why they are so arrogant. If you ignore the PR and look at the facts, they fly the least capable FJ (aircraft?) in the RAF. Crap range/payload, slow, low SA and can't even carry a gun. And when it's cloudy it gets worse!!

The arrogance can't be just single seat-Jag mates have a completely different attitude.

By the way, not all of us wanted single-seat, some wanted to fly fighters!!

I look forward to a response!!!
:cool:

[BEagle]

Perhaps the term 'hairy' stems from the days in the late '60s when hossifers wore smooth barathea battledress (incuding the 'aircrew version' for Lightning and V-force mates - best uniform ever!) whilst NCOs and ORs wore 'hairy' wool serge battledress? Someone who'd spent a few years itching in the woolly stuff was thus an 'ex-hairy'?

That 'aircrew' No 2 battledress was infinitely smarter than the awful 'Thunderbirds' smock which came into use around 1974 - but both were better than the tatty prep-school pullover now in use!

[spekesoftly]

Not to be confused with "Hairy Ar$ed" then? :p

And in my day the above was still a term of respect, for experience, age, time served etc.

[caspertheghost]

Nosegunner, you may well look forward to a response, but you probably won't get one until you post something worthwhile and based on facts!:E

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

If hairy is offensive imagine how insulting the term "baldricks" could be:rolleyes: ....................it's now a banned phrase here in Wilts as apparently us baldrick's did take offence when referred to as such by our lords and masters :E

Can't see what the problem is myself:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I prefer 'Below Stairs'. It keeps us Hairy-Arsed Baldricks firmly in our place. In the doghouse along with Beagle's gun dogs.

In fact, for the last 3 years or so, 'Gun Dogs' would be a good description. Unloading Albert in pitch black while the O's nosh doughnuts upstairs on the flight deck. Drinking tea that we have made for you! :}

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SPHL,

I would feel positively uncomfortable if it were any other way:E Know ones place is my motto:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[boomerangben]

This view of FJ pilots is not just limited to the other levels within the RAF - Civvies have a go at them as well.....

A lady from a town that used to be blessed with an RAF base shared this joke with me.

Q. What does a Tornado pilot use for contraception?

A. His personality.

I reckon from some of this posts that "Tornado" could be replaced by Fast Jet.

[Zoom]

Perhaps pilots get their attitude from the fact that, generally, the best pilots on the various courses get the best postings. I'll let you decide what constitutes 'the best postings'.

I agree with BEagle about the Lightning/Vulcan No 2 battledress - we non-entitled lusted after them. Wasn't there a 'high altitude wear' angle to them?

By the way, at least one recent CAS was an ex-hairy, circa the 80s, but he kept the fact off his CV.

[buoy15]

BEagle
I agree in some respects
I wore the 'hairy battledress' for my 1st 7 years and then I spent a glorious 3 year plus in FEAF in KD, where you were noticed as being well into your tour because you had 'hairy kneecaps' and hadn't been wearing "Scotchbright" uniform for a while. New arrivals quickly gained a tan, but they couldn't hide their smooth kneecaps, hence the line from the local Malcolm Club and rugby club song at the time;
"All you moonies please take note, it's a bloody long time before your boat"
And yes!, on my return to UK, I scrounged another No1 which I had converted to "Battledress" style by the stn tailor (allowed in those days) for about 15 quid, as did most other proud aviators - and Boy! didn't we look smart without itching.
Then came the 'V Bomber bus driver jacket' followed by the 'Flashers Mac' , 'the Postmans Shorty' and numerous 'woolly pully's'. lightweight trousers' and eventually CS95 and RN style pullovers etc. etc. Oh! I digress - What next? All green like the Canadians once were? Hairy thought!!!:confused:
By the way - I have an original 'Crombie Long' greatcoat for sale if anyone is interested - smooth and not "Hairy".

[Beeayeate]

Interesting reading in this thread, makes me think that not a lot has changed since I was "in" (although now it sounds as if it's taken more seriously). In those old hoary days I was envious of zobbits because they had brown leather gloves whilst we only had the blue "knitted" type. On those early winter morning parades the wind really cut through our standard issue mits, always envied the leather types and their warm hands. :rolleyes:

Essentially though, it must be remembered that the RAF is the only branch of the forces that sends it's officers into harm's way (what a cute US phrase :hmm: ) instead of the ground blokes. Always thought this was an ace idea - best way to fight a war, sit at home and send in an officer on an air strike. So they can be as arrogant as they like as long as they don't bend my aircraft. :ok:

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Hmm,

............and press the right buttons to do the damaging job they are being paid to do. Still, made a good story though!

Remind me, which one got a sore a*se?

isitd

:mad:

[Echo 5]

I always thought that the terms Zobbit, Rodney and Rupert were intended to be derogatory whereas "Hairy" has a rather nice ring to it.
Some of you out there are a bit too touchy.

E5 :)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Ah, but it is the term 'Ex-Hairy' that is causing fisticuffs at the hofficers mess.

It must be some sort or shaving pre-op prior to the spine removal. :}

Last time I was invited round the back of the Mess for a bit of 1 v 1.....it certainly wasn't fisticuffs!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

But did you go:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Argus]

Is that how you acquired your nom de plume ?

[Samuel]

Oh dear! I am beginning to think the original poster has a point.

I was an airman for nine years, and was selected , that is invited, to go through the commissioning process, something that had previously never entered my head. Throughout that time, I had met many officers, both aircrew and not, and with one notable exception [a Beverly Captain believe it or not! Oh how I laughed when he got bogged down], I gave and received mutual respect. . I had also bludged rides in everything I could because I loved flying, and I thank all of those who had the courage and lack of imagination to allow me control, and I use that word advisedly!

I was eventually interviewed by a Gp Capt with a very distinguished career, and he obviously thought there was a point to my being commissioned. So off I went to the charm school, a nine year airman, with a number of Officer Cadets learning to fly and become officers at the same time. Only one thought he was better [he didn't even come close!], and he was soon pointed in the right direction.

I had to work damn hard to continue up the ranks to Sqn Ldr. Staff courses and such were never my forte,and being suddenly given a task that I knew nothing about was a bit strange at first, but I had nothing but praise for all of those who helped, both aircrew and non-aircrew. I found I could often resolve problems that those who had never served as an airman found to be too hard, or outside their range of knowledge and experience.

I think, nay, I [I]know, that I was a better all round officer than many. I had a better range of jokes aswell. I also never came across the 'chip on the shoulder' types mentioned above. In fact I had a great 25 years or so.:ok:

I would quite happily fly anywhere, anytime with any one of you driving.

[Fox_4]

Why is it always those that havent made it that bitch about those that have! If you constantly fail to impress through training, well..........

Face facts, FJ guys no matter how much you lot envy them, are great.

Status - good god yes

:cool:

[FFP]

I'd agree Fox 4. But in your case . . . . . . .

Not bad at golf though ;)

[Argus]

Knucklehead (slang) fighter pilot:

“Egotistical, self opinionated, elitist, prone to exaggeration, small penis, below average numeracy- needs analogue watch with Mickey Mouse hands to tell time, speaks quickly although with tendency towards being garrulous, socially ill at ease, depressive personality disorder; ambidextrous - both hands calloused from prolonged self abuse...”.

[Stitchbitch]

Flaps62...you didn't go on to Valley after 'Laarparts' did you ?

Thank God that bad apples are so few and far between, however they do tend to get promoted....;)

[Gainesy]

IIRC the term "zobbit" comes from an Arabic word for the foreman or boss of a work group.

In the pre-PC 60s/70s, "Hairy" was spoken in full as "Hairy-arsed", so nothing to do with the uniform's material . It was a term of respect to denote someone (of whatever rank, including Zobs where applicable) who had great experience, knowledge and maturity.

Why are Bona Mates so called?

[5KSTROP]

well well chinese vic
sure its not chinese flu...as that also is very very serious and mostly irritating, mind you, you do go along way to back up the fact that blue jobs are devoid of all humour well not all of them only you... oh well never mind.
by the way this day an age is it really necessary to resort to such draconian measures as rolling up ones shirt for a touch of queensbury' finest? surely been called hairy is better than a slap in the chops as surely whomever it was you would stand up to would knock seven bells out of the sticks and stones very mature man stood in front of him or maybe laugh and walk on back to his 2o quid two-fers jug of red bull and vodka....maybe maybe not eh.
by the way don't take this to heart as I'm only being sarcastic and not very funny but you can vent some more anger if you like in my direction i like to help the boys in blue out every now and then some come on hairy have a laugh and little.

[Biggus]

5KSTROP

I presume you were pi**ed when you wrote that!! Although I never had a classic education, even I have found that the use of full stops, capital letters, and even commas, makes it far easier for others to read your, no doubt carefully chosen, prose!

[Mooney12]

I was at a P2 presentation in an AFCO a few weeks ago. The Flt Lt presenting it was an admin officer and she stated that pilots in the RAF viewed themselves as:

'a two winged master race'.

I am applying for pilot, but that is not how I would view myself.

[BEagle]

Pilots do not 'view themselves' as a two-winged master race - we ARE the Master Race!

Without pilots there would be no RAF. Remember that, O blunt ones!

[jack_k]

Look, this is all getting out of hand so lets summarise:

Number of empires built with officers who bought their commission = one
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nil

Officers who are promoted because they are decent solid chaps with a good family background whose fathers went to school with my father = world domination
Officers who are promoted due to "leadership" qualities = defence cuts, officer management strategy booklets, business speak, mission statements, and Saif Sareea

:E

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Mooney 12

Since you are from Norwich, it might not be too difficult for us 'Master Race' types to work out which AFCO said Flt Lt works at.........perhaps we should pop round and give her something to hang her towels on:cool:

HPT

[Mr C Hinecap]

Mooney - you'd better get your attitude adjusted - unless you believe you are Master Race you'll never fit in - well - not through training anyway. If not already posessed, develop swagger, slight (but increasing) sneer and loud voice for the bar.
Beags - if technology were to develop far enough, and we went over to UAVs, would that mean the Air Force would cease to exist? We ARE developing the technology for the damn things to fly themselves, but they will never be able to fix themselves or pop down to the shops for a spare part! :E
Perhaps we sould work on technology to speed up Handbrake House instead?:ok:

[buoy15]

BEagle
Typical
If you are flying ME, & you are a Pr*tt , who do you expect to pull you out of the fire, or into the dinghy before you get footprints on your shoulder-blades, should you managed to reach the ditdhing exits un-aided - I think you have been away from military flying for quite a while, or you have never flown 'proper' aeroplanes.

[European Crash]

Though not normally a staunch defender of the Admin world, it will be suffering massive staff reductions with the introduction of JPAS - self-authorising claims, centralised/regionalised administrative support units etc etc. WIll this improve efficiency. I think not.

EC

[Argus]

Buoy 15

Resorting to playing the man instead of the ball usually suggests a fundamental flaw in one's reasoning.

I don't know BEagle and have never met him. However, if you take the trouble to check his profile and some of his 4,000 odd posts on Pprune (including this thread), you can ascertain without too much trouble that he has flown (at least) F4s, Vulcans, VC10s, Jet Provosts, Hunters and Gnats; and would not see himself as anything other than a team player.

If the above aren't 'proper' aircraft (whatever that means), then tell us, pray what are.

Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling pud. It makes you go blind!

[Echo 5]

buoy15,

Bit of a fau pas there mate. You should really look before you leap if you are going to have a go at an individual. On this occasion you got it terribly wrong.
However, I'm sure that BEagle is a forgiving sort of chap.
Rgds

E5.:O

Edited for spelling error !!

[smartman]

Argus

No hero-worship here please. And if you're sensitive about playing the man etc, go play with the local Credit Union Netball Team. Call yourself an Ozzie?

[The Gorilla]

Can I join the Beags protection society please???

:D

[BEagle]

buoy15 wasn't being offensive, he wrote "if you're being a pratt..........". Which would be true if one was.....he had a fair point.

TVM for kind words though team!

[bad livin']

I agree entirely with Oggin Aviator and Blacksheep. Having been chopped pilot at JEFTS with the RAF and subsequently retrained as a submarine warfare officer in the RN, I feel I can speak with a bit of knowledge on the differences between the two systems and ways of life. Status was enormously important in the RAF - so much so in fact that the thought of remaining in the RAF in a non flying trade filled me with so much self generated depression and worry about being perceived as a loser/inadequate/deviant and having to watch my friends go flying every day while I worked in Supply/Admin or whatever that I resigned.

Having started over, I see that in the RN there is generally more respect between specialisations for the reasons mentioned above and simply that INITIAL TRAINING IS NOT ROLE FIXATED to the extent that IOT was. I fully accept that the RAF exists to put bombs on targets and people in cockpits but there needs to be more acknowledgement of the people who allow that to happen.

In saying all that...submarines are a wee bitty cheekier than bridge watchkeeping on a 42 for the first 6 years of your career....;-)

;)

[Argus]

Smartman

My goodness me, seems like you need a good lie down, a cup of tea and a Bex. If I say any more, you'll be inviting me out the back of the 'O's' Mess for a 'D & M'!

[pig fist]

Dudes,

Great thread - we haven't seen bitching like this since the ARK GQ article!

On a serious note - as a passionate voyeur on our society - I am constantly disappointed by the bitching and backstabbing that goes on between aviators. As someone who gets vertigo going up a ladder (but having been flying in a black pig at 500kts) I have the greatst of respect for all wafu's. Some of my respect is envy - who, in their heart of hearts, wouldn't want to wander around in a green bag, do zero admin, go to airshows and generally have a ball? But as someone who is honest enough to admit I couldn't do their job I am also sick of the pathetic infighting that goes on. Yes wafu's get paid more - but only because they get paid earlier than the rest. Yes the Air Force is a society dominated by FJ (bar John Day) aircrew - but you knew that before you joined, so why bitch about it? As someone who would love to have flown, but knows he doesn't have the aptitude I joined the dark blue - here we are ruled by fish-heads who drive pusser's grey war canoes about - but Admirals and Commodores come in all shapes and specializations.

Those of you who suit up and pull 'g' - good on you. Those of us you (I hope) affectionately call 'REMFs' are here cos' we want to be. If you don't like what you do - change it and get your P45.

Why are aviators - whom we all assume are supremely confident in their abilities - so insecure when discussing their bretheren? Oddly, the really good ones don't seem to bitch about others.

"Remember, you are responsible for terrain avoidance"

[Argus]

Pig Fist

Interesting post.

It's all to do with the Dali Lama Syndrome and the Halo Complex!

Today's 'Andrew' must have changed. In my day, Betty Windsor owned six flat tops, the Fleet Air Arm was king, aircrew (some of whom went on to reach Flag rank) were the supreme beings and other, lesser mortals knew their place. We never bagged our colleagues (unless it was a certain AEW sqn whose members were alleged to indulge in 'conduct unbecoming' with each other) - but 'fish-heads' (especially 'goonery' officers with liquorice legs), 'plumbers' (except sqn engineers), Royal Marines, educators, 'pussers', particularly catering officers, all other general service types in dark blue who took themselves too seriously, and, of course cr@bfat, were fair game.

And we could fly the pants off ANY competition!

[MLS-12D]

Number of empires built with officers who bought their commission = one
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nilNow this is simply ridiculous.

Even if one ignores the xenephobic attitude that the former British Empire is the only empire in history (which is flat-out wrong), the fact remains that the Royal Navy had at least as much to do with the creation of that empire as did the British Army. And although officers' promotions in the senior service have not always been based entirely on merit, RN commissions and promotions have never been available for purchase (which most officers, being middle class, could never have afforded).

In any case, class snobbery :yuk: was directly (though not entirely) responsible for the break-up of the British Empire ... and not before time! :ok:

[Red Line Entry]

Maybe MLS, but I think your response is a little outside the 5 second rule!!

[MLS-12D]

No maybes about it.