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Wirraway
25th Feb 2004, 22:43
Thurs "Melbourne Age"

How Qantas pilots acted on impulse
Alan Kohler
February 26, 2004

The breakthrough that got Jetstar flying came three months ago. The former Impulse pilots, now flying Qantas 717s, agreed to fly A320s for the same salary.

The immense significance of this may be lost on those whose contact with aviation is confined to trying to figure out where to stick the headset lead on different planes. But believe me, it is the start of a revolution.

Under the deal with the 143 pilots, the standard rate for a Jetstar A320 captain is $125,000 a year. The standard rate for a Qantas captain flying a Boeing 738 (the equivalent plane) is between $200,000 and $240,000. That is, Jetstar pilots will earn a little more than half that of Qantas pilots.

What is more, the Jetstar pilots volunteered for it. The 143 pilots unanimously agreed three months ago to fly A320s for the same pay as 717s. The pilots knew that the old Impulse fleet they had flown into Qantas was being phased out and the pilots would soon be out of a job.

It means that as the 717s (now to be labelled Jetstar) are replaced by larger more efficient A320s, the cost of running the new discount airline will fall from 8.25¢ per passenger kilometre to 7.8¢ - about 11 per cent below Virgin Blue's disclosed cost base.

Qantas chief Geoff Dixon says he did not have Jetstar in mind when Qantas bought Impulse and kept it as a separate subsidiary employing its pilots on the same rates. He did it "for a rainy day". With Virgin Blue at 31.5 per cent market share and rising - it is raining.

The deal with the Impulse/Jetstar pilots also has enormous implications for Qantas and, without wishing to get too carried away, for industrial relations generally.

Qantas pilots have now asked Dixon that they be able to transfer to Jetstar and are prepared to accept the lower rates when they fly its planes. Negotiations are continuing. But the Qantas pilots want seven out of every 20 commands (captain's positions) at Jetstar to go to Qantas pilots (they want to try to maintain their overall pace of advancement to command).

Dixon says he will agree to that only as long as Jetstar pilots can advance to Qantas commands (on Qantas pay rates, that is). So far the Qantas pilots are baulking at that.

In general, it is a sort of bloodless Pilot's Strike Mark 2, where the lower-paid Impulse pilots have brought a low-wage infection into the Qantas host.

Over time, Jetstar will take market share from Qantas. In fact most, if not all, of its passengers will come from Qantas. After all, even Dixon acknowledges that Virgin Blue's market share is likely to remain the same (between 30 and 35 per cent).

This means Qantas's capacity will be reduced and some routes will be dropped as Jetstar brings in more A320s. Qantas pilots will then have this choice: switch to the discount airline on half the pay or lose their jobs as Alan Joyce at Jetstar hires pilots from somewhere else. The pilot pay cut is the first breakthrough that helped Dixon get Jetstar off the ground. The second is that Joyce will be able to match European discount productivity.

He believes he can get up to 1000 hours a year flying time from the pilots, as opposed to Virgin Blue's 700 hours a year (and Qantas's much less).

That will be achieved largely through faster turnarounds - 25 minutes on average, compared with 30 minutes for Virgin Blue and 35 minutes for Qantas.

European discount carrier Ryanair has been helping Joyce design the turnaround processes, but the main thing is that there will be no fixed seat allocation - everyone will be able to sit where they like, which will save time on the ground. Also, flights will be closed 30 minutes before take-off.

In time, it is possible that Jetstar will grow to a third of the market, with the Qantas full-service airline shrinking to a third. If that happened, Qantas group market share would remain the same (around 65 per cent), revenue would fall because of Jetstar's lower fares, but profit would rise.

That is because Qantas will make more profit margin on every discount passenger who transfers from Qantas to Jetstar, thanks to its lower costs, in turn due to the pilots, plus other things like using Avalon as a hub, charging for food and not having seat allocation.

The advent of Jetstar will be a fascinating episode in aviation, but above all it is a major industrial relations event.

[email protected]

============================================

ftrplt
26th Feb 2004, 00:51
But the Qantas pilots want seven out of every 20 commands (captain's positions) at Jetstar to go to Qantas pilots (they want to try to maintain their overall pace of advancement to command).

Its not what was wanted, it was the best offered.


In fact most, if not all, of its passengers will come from Qantas. After all, even Dixon acknowledges that Virgin Blue's market share is likely to remain the same (between 30 and 35 per cent).

Ignores market expansion

Suffering Sucataash
26th Feb 2004, 02:59
I believe the final Jetstar Captains wage will be around 150K now and even then the company is going to suffer as the market dictates higher pay or they will lose too many pilots overseas as is happening at airslave (jetconnect) in NZ.

He believes he can get up to 1000 hours a year flying time from the pilots, as opposed to Virgin Blue's 700 hours a year (and Qantas's much less).


I don't know where they get this stuff I did just over 900 hrs last year and I know others that did close to their 1000, you fly more you get paid more......simple.

BZTW does Impulse/Jetstar have the same dispo. to go to 1000?

tobzalp
26th Feb 2004, 03:06
Qantas pilots will then have this choice: switch to the discount airline on half the pay or lose their jobs as Alan Joyce at Jetstar hires pilots from somewhere else.

Lets hope that this does not happen. Will be very very bad for aviation as a whole in the end.

Gnadenburg
26th Feb 2004, 03:47
Sucateesh

The odd QF pilot popping up in the EK Hold Pool ( 2000 here already ) or a half a dozen or so Australian Airlines F/O's sniffing around Hong Kong, is not going to send shivers down managements' spine.

Sadly, you have been outplayed and AIPA playing catch up footy in the last quarter. Victory out of the question and so the draw!

Good luck anyway. I always go the underdog.

Is Oldmeadow playing in the ruck for QF Management versus the pilot group?

Pilots around the world improving conditions in this little boom. Only in Australia is the slide inexorably backwards!

Johhny Utah
26th Feb 2004, 05:10
According to a reliable source - yes, the Impulse pilots do have the same dispensation to operate up to 1000 hrs per annum. :*

Yes gnad, Oldmeadow is 'playing in the ruck for QF Management'. :mad: Given his obvious success with the J* negotiations, I guess we'll be seeing a lot more of him when the time comes around for the next LH EBA. Not something to look forward to as far as I'm concerned...:mad: :mad:

*Lancer*
26th Feb 2004, 07:31
How does the free seating allocation thing work with loading?

GaryGnu
26th Feb 2004, 07:55
Lancer,
I travelled EzyJet last year. This is how they managed seat allocation.

1. At Check In you get a sequence number on your boarding pass. The earlier you check in the lower the number.

2. At the gate they make boarding announcements for people to board in lots of 20 according to their sequence number (lower numbers first). All boarding passes were inspected mannually to check the number.

3. Once you are past the gate lounge it is every passenger for themselves and the race is on to secure the best seats.

4. The crew assess the suitability of the people who have chosen the exit rows prior to door close and changes are made if necessary.

Pimp Daddy
26th Feb 2004, 08:17
How do you plan a trim with free seating?

Given everyone said the 717s werea bit trim sensitive on here.

*Lancer*
26th Feb 2004, 08:46
GaryGnu, but what about the balance? Are they going to use "Standard Moment" figures as well?! :uhoh:

SydGirl
26th Feb 2004, 09:14
They're expecting every flight to be 100% full, so trim won't matter. :=

SG
:}

redsnail
26th Feb 2004, 10:14
I'll be home tomorrow, I'll be able to tell you how easyJet trim the aircraft then. Unless of course, a former easyJet pilot posts before me.

easyJet use the system to board the aircraft as described above (although they don't seem to pay much attention to it in Paris CDG). Ryanair is a bit more of a scrum compared to that. It does seem to work.
bmibaby use allocated seating like Virgin Blue.

oldhasbeen
26th Feb 2004, 12:58
Think air rage is a problem now? Wait till you get 170 odd bums fighting, clawing and scratching for the exit rows.If they think this will improve turn times.......good luck:confused:

gaunty
26th Feb 2004, 13:09
oldhasbeen

From anothery. ;)

Exactly and with no seat allocation, there goes another security barrier.

If you don't know who was sitting where after the fact, then they might find out why but the chances of knowing who go out to around 10 to the power of a real lot.

If that's the price of cheap fares then QF will continue to get my dollar.

Burgger they've got me both ways.:uhoh: :{

pullock
26th Feb 2004, 14:59
That's a pretty narrow sighted article. It implies that the lower cost per ASK is because of the pilot wages, when in fact they are just a part of it. Lower airframe and engine lease costs, lower fuel costs on QF buying power, same for spares, and lower engineering costs, ground handelling and customer service staff cost all go to the ASK bottom line, some of them more significantly so than pilot wages !!

I would think that if what you know about aviation is just working out how to plug in the headset, then one could be forgiven for omiting these significant points when discussing low ASK's, but to claim to be an expert and not even mention them :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Animalclub
27th Feb 2004, 15:22
Many US carriers have been operating without seat allocation from the 1970's with aircraft larger and smaller than the 717. Surely the trim problem has been solved by now.

The Puzzler
27th Feb 2004, 17:19
Puzzle me this....

As an aussie expat who is now mercifully ex easyjet allow me to cast some light on free seating. Basically the loadsheet evens out the load across the 3 loading compartments that the 737 pax compartment is divided into. It is then up to the cabin crew to make sure that the pax are evenly distributed across the cabin and if necessary make adjustments if say 50 pax all sit at one end of the plane. Most of the time the No1 would come and ask where we would like the pax to be if this was the case. In practise with good load factors it is never an issue. On the odd occasion when we flew a late night shuttle to Scotland with 10 pax we'd seat them all forward. All baggage is loaded into the rear hold except prams, breakables etc which went into the forward hold. Again on the odd occasion that we maxed out with baggage the procedure was always to fill the rear hold before filling the forward hold. In almost 4 years of flying with them I never had a significant trim problem. As for the pushing and shoving to get onboard, well it is inevitable....

And finally, dont sell out. T & C's across the world are on the decline, we must all make a stand to keep our profession just that - professional! All the best and happy landings. :ok:

Watchdog
28th Feb 2004, 05:21
Jonny Utah, your source is NOT reliable.

:ok:

surfnsun
28th Feb 2004, 13:17
tobzalp....

Why will it be very bad for aviation in the end?

Ramboflyer 1
28th Feb 2004, 13:39
If the QF guys want commands so bad they should be fighting with CASA to bring in the cancellation of ATPLs to over 60 year olds , there would be more promotion than jetstar could offer then.
Also what happens to the Jetstar /Impulse Pilots who didnt do HSC, are they denied entrance to Qantas like so many Ansett Pilots . Its shaping up for a real bunfight!:sad:

tobzalp
29th Feb 2004, 03:15
surf n sun. Just look at teaching. Pay sh!t, get sh!t.

Chocks Away
29th Feb 2004, 08:08
mmm, Ramboflyer hit it on the head.
A BIG can of worms... given those in Nopulse may be lacking HSC and either already failed, OR have not completed Stage 1 and 2 QF Entry Testing and Sims... ???:}

I can see why QLink cry foul!

spinout
29th Feb 2004, 09:15
I would just like to know how many of the current pilot's at Qantas mainline don’t/did not have to meet the entry requirements given that when Qantas took over Australian airlines that at the time, was made up of some very dubious people who accepted positions in Australian airlines literally over the phone, no psychology test no skills test etc

The The
1st Mar 2004, 13:15
Where is all the efficiency with this free seating idea?

You check-in and instead of getting a boarding pass with a seat, you get a boarding pass with a sequence number. No saving there.

At the gate, the staff would have to be very vigilant to ensure your boarding sequence pass is valid for the flight and you are not boarding out of sequence to avoid a sh@t fight onboard. A card reader would be faster, error proof, more secure and the F/A's wouldn't have to move people about to ensure trim.

There may be savings for a start up with the technology investment, but when you can nick it off big brother, where's the saving?

DJ are already highlighting seat allocation in their ads.

I suspect this idea will be among the first changes to the business model that will blow the budget with the reinvestment costs.

Douglas Mcdonnell
2nd Mar 2004, 07:12
Didnt do the HSC. You guys are kidding yourselves if you think that most guys in the pulse are uneducated. But of course sweeping generalisations are the next best thing to facts arent they chocks away?

On a interseting note. Did any one see the article in the herald sun on the weekend about the ex QF pilot who set up a site which sounded alot like the official J* site.
He was pushing anit QF propoganda. He was apparently sacked some years ago because of mental illness, and is still dirty. Obsessive Compulsive I think it was.

Entry tests? mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Give me a guy that has common sence and can actually fly any day over a HSC weilding cone head.

Spelling_Man!
2nd Mar 2004, 07:49
Spelling Man and his trusty sidekick Punctuation Boy, alerted by the emergency Spell Signal, rush to view a catastrophic scene at Dunnunda.

SM: "My God Punctuation Boy, I just hope we aren't too late! Hand me the heavy duty Webster's..."

Propaganda: n systematic efforts to spread opinions or beliefs.

Sense: n Good judgement, intelligence

Wielding: v Holding and using.

PB:" Looks like Douglas accidentally won the argument for Chocks Away? ...hah hah."

SM: "Steady on, my firm buttocked buddy, our only function here is to ensure that spelling justice... is done!"

PB: "Sorry Spelling Man, I guess it is my turn over the barrel again tonight?"

SM: " Hmmm, We'll see what Alfred wants to do...anyway, our work here is done...AWAY!"