Chinese Airlines Halt Ticket Sales to Pax from Middle East

[Airbubba]

One sure way, politically incorrect, to reduce the threat. It must be pointed out that some nationalities and religions certainly do not receive equal treatment on Middle Eastern Airlines.

______________________________________


October 12, 2001

Chinese Airlines Halt Mideast Sales
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


Filed at 1:55 p.m. ET

HONG KONG (AP) -- Beijing authorities have instructed Chinese airlines in Hong Kong to halt ticket sales to nationals of 19 countries, mainly in the Middle East.

China National Aviation Corp., the sole agent of 10 mainland airlines in Hong Kong, told travel agents in an Oct. 3 memo to stop selling tickets to China to holders of certain passports and to refund tickets already bought.

China has tightened controls on Middle Easterners trying to travel to mainland China in the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks in the United States and the retaliatory strikes on Afghanistan.

The memo, which was obtained by The Associated Press, urged travel agents to comply with rules issued by China's Foreign Affairs Ministry and the Civil Aviation Administration imposing "strict controls'' on travelers. It was unclear if the memo had been sent to travel agents in other countries.

A marketing manager at Air China, who identified herself only by the surname Leung, said the carrier's Hong Kong office received instructions from the Beijing headquarters to impose the ban for "safety reasons.''

The memo said added that there would not be "a total ban'' -- wording that may have been meant to allow room for diplomats or dignitaries to travel.

A deputy marketing manager of the China National Aviation Corp., who identified herself only by the surname He, refused to answer questions about the memo, saying the matter was "the business of a commercial company'' and not the public's concern.

Pakistani diplomats have complained that Beijing appears to have imposed a virtual ban on their nationals trying to visit mainland China. Some Middle Eastern consulates have also said that China has tightened entry requirements.

China's Foreign Ministry has acknowledged that entry rules are changed from time to time, but it disputed contentions this week that any nationalities have been singled out.

China's Civil Aviation Administration and the official spokesmen of three carriers -- Air China, China Eastern and China Southern -- denied a ban existed on Middle Eastern air travelers.

"We do not know such a thing,'' said a CAA official in Beijing, who refused to give his name. The CAA official said, however, that Chinese airlines have canceled flights to Pakistan and Kuwait.

The Chinese memo said tickets should not be issued to holders of the following passports: Afghanistan, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Sudan, Libya, Algeria and Pakistan. Holders of Palestinian passports were also barred

[The Groover]

Hmmm wonder if the Chinese will also stop selling these countries arms.........................nope didn't think so !


TG

----------------------------


That's the way its going down......baby

[sigma]

Well Thank you THE GOVERNOR for your pathetic comment, as usual no significance.
Wonder why the Taleban are using US stinger missiles and UK DOD trained them ?

[ironbutt57]

hey sigma...think you misread the above fellow's handle....or do you read english? the chinese have been selling arms to our friend in the nw corner of the gulf for years...and now being hypocrites by refusing to carry passengers from certain countries, the vast majority of whom are just ordinary travellers....

[The Groover]

Sigma, as it apears that you have no concept of reading, let me point out that the post was intended to be ironic, just as the fact that our brave crews may be downed by stinger missiles is also ironic.

It was also intended to point out a strange and hypocitic decision made by a government who itself has not much regard to who's civil rights it violates, or indeed to who it supplies arms to.

Free speech is still tolerated in here is it ???

But to confuse me with the Guvnor, well, get off the bandwagon matey !!!

Next time look and READ before your consuming passion for 'Guvnor bashing' clouds your very dubious judgement !!


TG

------------------------------------


Thats the way its goin' down........ baby

[Airbubba]

Now, Delta has cancelled the JFK-AMS flight after "Middle Eastern" people bought one-way tickets:


Delta flight canceled after suspicious bookings

October 13, 2001 Posted: 9:43 AM EDT (1343 GMT)

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Delta Air Lines canceled a non-stop flight from New York to Amsterdam Friday night after two men, described as Middle Eastern, bought one-way tickets and two others inquired about doing so, a source involved in the investigation told CNN.

Delta spokesman Tom Donahue would only say the flight was canceled due to a "security-related issue," and that two passengers were detained by the FBI prior to boarding at John F. Kennedy International Airport.

According to the investigative source, none of the names of those who inquired about the one-way tickets was on the FBI's watch list for potential terrorists.

Delta Flight 80 was kept at the gate until the scheduled 8:15 p.m. departure time to see if the men checked in, the source said.

Donahue would not reveal details about the identities of the two men detained. He said the remaining passengers are being booked on another Delta flight to Amsterdam.

[cosmo kramer]

Arrhh - Is there censorship on PPRUNE??

My last post was deleted, perhaps by accident?

If not, let me clarify. I'll start out with a quote from ironbutt57:

and now being hypocrites (the Chinese) by refusing to carry passengers from certain countries, the vast majority of whom are just ordinary travellers....

I don't find this hypocritical at all. The problems is that the terrorists look just like "the vast majority".

Political correctness is not what is going to prevent further terrorist attacks. I still say "great move, I whish the western world had the stregth to do so aswell" (is that so bad that it has to be sensored? If so please give me an explanation instead of just deleting my post).

For the record, I'm not advocating a ban of muslims, but a ban of passport holders from terrorist contries (such as the Chinese has imposed) would in my opinion be appropriate.

(Edited for UBB bugs)

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: cosmo kramer ]

[cesar]

Dear cosmo:

You probably didn´t think twice before saying "a ban of passport holders from terrorist contries" (such as the Chinese has imposed) would in my opinion be appropriate.".

Your idea, put in practice, would get a good deal of humanity grounded. Even excluding the middle eastern islamic terror groups, here are some examples of countries whose citizens would have visas denied (and their active terrorist groups):

AFRICA -

Rwanda - ALIR;
Sierra Leone - RUF;
South Africa - PAGAD.

ASIA:

Cambodia - Khmer Rouge;
Georgia - Zviadists;
India - Sikh Terrorism Group;
Japan - Japanese Red Army, Chukaku-Ha, Aum Shinrikyo;
Philippines - CPP, AB Brigade, NPA;
Russia - Zviadists;
Sri Lanka - LTTE.


EUROPE:

Germany - RAF;
Greece - 17 November, ELA;
Italy - Red Brigades (BR -PCC, BR- UCC);
Spain - ETA, GRAPO;
Turkey - DHKP/C;
UK/NorthernIreland-Ireland/Irish Republic - IRA, CIRA, LUF, OU, Real IRA.

South and Central America -

Bolivia - EGTK, ELN;
Chile - FPRM, Lautano Youth;
Colombia - FARC, AUC, ELN;
Ecuador - Puka Inti;
Honduras - FPM;
Peru - Sendero Luminoso, Tupac Amaru.

The Israeli Kach and Kahane Chai group could be added to the list if you´d like. One could extend the ban to US citizens too if the untra right/fanatic militia groups which welcome people like Timothy Mc.Veigh fit into your classification...

The flourishing of simpleton visions and judgements dividing the world between "us" and "they" is precisely one of the goals of terrorists and one of the foundamentalist groups´ indoctrinating methods.

More than ever it´s time for us to see the many shades of grey, instead of just black and white. And I´m not even talking of colours... :D

Sources:

The Counter-Terrorism Page:
http://www.terrorism.net/groups/

Dudley Knox Library
Naval Postgraduate School:
http://web.nps.navy.mil/~library/tgp/tgp2.htm

Hugs to all.

[cosmo kramer]

Cesar, I'm sure you would agree that e.g. IRA or ETA don't have global economy colapse on their agenda. Niether do rebellions in Chile or Honduras.

[cesar]

Thank God it´s not on their agenda. I´m sure, and I hope you agree, that propositions like the one you expressed are not the proper way to deal with the issue.
Let´s move a step forward...
Let´s hear some suggestions...
Anyone?

[Fluke]

Any idea if Cathay has adopted this policy as they are Chinese and have several Middle Eastern destinations ?

[Narada]

The reason for the limited 'ban' appears to be the bolstered security measures for the upcoming meeting of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Council.

[PositionReport]

Two thumbs up for the chinese !!

These people represent a threat, the only way to assure safety is not let anyone of them on the airplane. This industry can survive quite nicely without their ticket purchase.

[mutt]

PositionReport.

At present there are around 1.2 BILLION Moslems in the world, do you intend to introduce an apartheid system that affects all of them, or just the dark skinned ones from the Middle East?

Mutt :(

[The Groover]

Thanks Mutt, my point entirely.


TG


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Thats the way its goin' down .......baby

[PorcoRosso]

Position report,

Your post is simply disgusting. I am not surprised you just "checked in" in October on Pprune. You prefer to hide to spit your ideas.
Atleast, Oussama Bin laden is showing his face now.

And I am sure that wise people will not confuse this man with all the muslims

[PositionReport]

Excuse me?

So it is disgusting that I support the airlines taking precautions to save innocent lives?

These people have a long history of hatred in their blood, I personally would not feel comfortable with them on board !! and the government of a country with 1.3 billion people feel the same.

Having a lose attitude like some of you are EXACTLY the reason we were caught off guard. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, THIS AIN'T HAPPY LAND !!!

[ 14 October 2001: Message edited by: PositionReport ]

[PositionReport]

Porsorosso,

I guess you are much more qualified to speak here because you have "checked in" longer than I have.

Hope you get to fly something bigger than a senaca soon.

[CaptChaos]

Your proposition of banning some nationalities from the Arab world would achieve what the terrorists such as Osama bin Laden want, a clash of civilazations. The solution here with all due respect is not go back to tha dark ages of descrimination, but use our combined efforts to fight this evil. The vast majority of Muslems do not identify with Bin Laden, he is not voicing their beliefes and in fact they see him as a discrace to their religion which promotes peace and love. The lesson here is that the cloak of religion is a very powerful tool to fanatisize individuals. Humanity must stand up to this threat and not allow it to devide us but use it to unite the world to erradicate it.

[angrycat]

I personally would not like to see a group of middle eastern men/people boarding and would probably feel happier delaying flight to check identities again to make sure. This however could be considered racist.Better a live coward than a dead hero though.

[maxalt]

Peace and Love Capt.Chaos? I don't think so.
But then the bible purports to advocate Peace and Love also...doesn't stop us 'Christians' murdering each other, does it.

The Koran is a lot more like the Old Testament...plenty of fire and brimstone and gods retribution etc. It also has some nice bits about Peace and Love. Bonking even!

[PorcoRosso]

Position Report

Yes am Flying a Seneca, (not a Senaca BTW)
So What ? Do I have to wait for an EMB120 or 737 Type rating to give my opinion ? I don't think so.
Probalby you were clever enough to jump from the 152, straight to the Boeing left or right seat , or maybe you simply forgot the time you were building your experience on light twins like Seneca (did you cross the atlantic with one ? )

As some people mentionned earlier on this thread, the Chinese's Idea will achieve Oussama Bin Laden's goal : dividing the muslims from the others... We can also go a step further, by grounding all A/C movements...

What is not mentionned in my profile, is that my girlfriend is an Air Hostess in a European airline, also having operations in Muslims countries. Another fact about her, is her colour, not the same as "standard" Europeans. This make us especially concerned by terrorism but also by racist attitudes or pure segregation.

I guess from your Type ratings that you are mainly flying domestic, and not international. Do you think your solution will work in other places like Europe or Africa?
Keep in mind that non-muslim or white people are a minority on this planet.

And please, don't tell me I am anti-american .....

[Greg Baddeley]

I can't imagine this practice becoming widespread - it's just a knee-jerk reaction. After all, where do you start? Anyone with Mohammed in their name? Anyone with a dark complexion? It just wouldn't work on a practical scale.

However, the airlines will try to reduce risk, and El Al already single out certain groups for extra attention; the subject needs to be seen in context, it's not a racist action, just an acknowledgment that we must be aware from where in the world the threat is coming, and be especially vigilant.

Banning certain nationals won't work, and hopefully everyone left in the free world can see, and accept, that maybe a few extra questions by the airlines' security staff will do no harm, it's there for everyone's benefit.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Cesar, Hi,

According to your list, old Dubya has a lot of ground to cover! and forever incorrect, good on the Chink's, if you not hold the tail, the Tiger can't bite !!
Not only wil the question be, Will the Chinese stop selling arms, but will Dubya stop Noraid sending guns, bullets and cash to the IRA terror groups!!

[mcdude]

From South China Morning Post(scmp.com) 15/10/01

Beijing blames airlines over Mideast travel ban -CHEUNG CHI-FAI

The Foreign Ministry has blamed mainland airlines for misunderstanding a directive about barring travellers from Middle East countries issued after the terrorist attacks in the United States.

Neither the Foreign Ministry nor the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) had asked the airlines to ban passengers from 19 Middle East countries, it said.

"A few airlines misunderstood the concerned policy, and have acted inappropriately in some individual cases," the statement from the Office of the Commissioner of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the SAR said. "Once uncovered, they have been rectified immediately."

The statement said China welcomed all travellers with valid visas.

The South China Morning Post reported on Saturday that mainland airlines, such as China Southern, China Eastern and Air China, had been instructed not to sell tickets to travellers from 19 Middle East countries and Palestine.

In a circular dated October 3, the China National Aviation Corp, sole agent of Chinese airlines in Hong Kong, urged travel agents to comply with rules issued by the Foreign Ministry and the CAAC about imposing "strict controls" on the travellers.

The circular said it was issued in accordance with the "spirit" of a notice by the Foreign Ministry and the CAAC.

Countries named were Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Sudan, Libya and Algeria. Palestine was also listed.

The tightened security was imposed ahead of the Apec conference in Shanghai this weekend when US President George W. Bush will be among heads of state attending.

[PorcoRosso]

Probably not that easy to set up, but I am definitely in favor of a passenger Blacklist.
Intelligence agencies should provides airlines with a list of potentially dangerous individuals. Either on the terrorist point of view or the air rage aspect.
Maybe am wrong, but I am pretty sure that passengers won't let this happening again.

I can't believe we have reach that level of violence and sauvagerie, as we say in France.

[PositionReport]

Of course not all Muslims are terrorists, one has to be an idiot to think that way.

But can we tell who is and who isn't?? probably not.

This is not the time to be politically correct, look what that did to the world and the airline industry in particular.

One more thing....what's with these Muslim protesters we've been seeing on CNN?? Don't they have any clue what THEIR people did to not only Americans, but citizens from over 60 countries that had offices at the World Trade Center?

If anything, they should protest to get these knuckleheads out of their country, not in support of them.

PorsoRosso,

sorry I mispelled SenEca, as I do not fly one.

[Alternate Static]

PositionReport

Your attitude is juvenile and offensive. Personal attacks, racial slurs...

[PositionReport]

Racial slurs?? :D (where?)

Offensive? :D (how?)

Hit the logoff button !!

[PorcoRosso]

Position report

Just one thing I noticed
Two months ago I was involved in an hot debate about this US NAVY Orion which had to make an emergency landing in China.
Because KIFIS and myself were not sharing US posters point of view, we were blamed to be communists, anti-democrats and so on and so on.
Quite a long list of points was made by US Ppruners about how bad China and Chinese were.

Therefore, I am a bit surprised to see how quickly some US pilots agree, today, with the chinese government's bright idea.
I am not trying to destroy your resoning about terrorist, but if i follow your idea to ban muslims pax from airline flights, you may also want to forbid access to Irsih, Spanish, French, Italian ...etc...etc..;on the simple basis, you can't tell if they are terrorist or not.
BTW, if I remember the FedEx incident (1994 ?) The Hijacker involved was a US citizen, former military pilot ...and decided to crash the DC10 on the FedEx buildings.
Do we have to ban all former FedEx employees ?

PS

Sorry for the "disgusting" I don't mean you are an idiot of some sort, I am just surprised that some pilots can stick with segregation measures ...

[sirwa69]

Hmmm
Last night I flew out of DXB with Mrats and the flight was full of Arabs.
Not only did they not object to the few Westerner's on board they even gave us metal knives :eek:
Funny thing was we only had finger food ;)

[Hooking Fell]

PorcoRosso:

No one here will accuse you of being an undercover Islamic terrorist - not with a handle like Red Pig.

(Porca Miseria)

:D

[PorcoRosso]

After having been suspected from being a Communist, that was the least I could expect ;)