Low-timers and (un)employability

[Weasel Watcher]

PPRUNE FAN#1 has very helpfully started a new thread (See below - 15 Feb). The discussion which was provoked by his reservations about a low-time / inexperienced pilot applying for the type of job mentioned in this post detracted from the purpose of the 'Jobs' thread.
I've moved the discussion posts here, leaving the 'Jobs' thread for the purpose for which it's intended.

Heliport

===================



I have been invited to find a pilot for a Bell 430 to be based on the back of a luxury yacht based in the Mediterranean. The pilot would be expected to carry out the duties of a crew member when not required for flying.
If there are any Bell 430 globetrotters out there, get in contact for details of the package.

Beware of weasels.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Bravo99:Know of a AS355 with an IR driver who would type to the machine but he is a little low on hours
he would do it if interested give me a shout and i will forward his detailsB99, is this the guy you're talking about? From an earlier post in another thread...I have a friend with 60 hours twin squirrel I.R, F.I 27 hours 206 crm remaining time on R22 but only 350 hours total and he is in the same position Are you seriously suggesting that your friend, with 350 hours TT would be qualified to take a position flying a Bell 430 off a boat? Do you think that someone who is rich enough to own a boat big enough to carry a helicopter would hire a pilot with so little experience? Do you think that there is an insurance company on the planet that would cover him? I find that astounding. I mean, I understand that you must like your friend and want to find him a job, but let's get serious...

[Power Up]

PPRUNE FAN#1

I think you are in the same boat as me in answering your own questions:
I DON'T KNOW

So why not let him apply and see what happens, a fellow pilot is trying to network for another - instead of slating hiim to the ground, why not show some interest and wish him luck.
The worst that can happen is that they say no, and hopefully Bravo99 would be able to come back and tell us he state of play. May help keep us informed of the current market.
I know I would be interested to hear, especially as I am still in training.

[Helipolarbear]

Bravo 99


By the way i notice that you are from the US
(speaks for its self I think)


He is making a point about the serious lack of experiance and flight time your friend has, with respect to this B430 position.
I don't think your derogatory innuendo to his nationality helps.
:cool:

[Helipolarbear]

Bravo 99: Might be the end of YOUR comments! You are obviously as inexperienced as your friend. He was not being slated rather advised not to make a fool of himself by applying for such a corporate position: SPIFR B430 needs alot of experiance, especially on the multi-engine time! PP FAN #1 was asserting that point..in the nicest way!
However, if you have 'ISSUES' with some US pilots, please share them so that we may either agree/disagree, be educated by your experiance, or perhaps educate you by some of the answers you will most likely receive! ;)

[whatsarunway]

polar bear,

can you imagine a guy from the department trying to do a ramp check on you on the boat? Pull up in his rubber dingy and asks for permission to come abord?

sounds like a job for you!

although , you have a cushy enough number as it is! think you could cope with the slownes of a 430?

[Helipolarbear]

Whatsarunaway- That would be hilarious....ramped check on a boat in the middle of the Med.......I wonder how the duty times would apply?? But then the B430 is an ok ship.......Bell could have improved a few areas....over their perceived competition!
Starting with the SCAS and moving up!!!

B-99 Hope your buddy gets a job, but I'd be amazed if it was SPIFR on a B430! Fly safe!
;) :cool:

[Power Up]

Bravo 99

Good luck with your mate, hope his time, effort and money pays off. An IR with such little time and a multi rating - personally quite impressed.
Will have to consider the FI ticket.
Considering doing FAA tickets and IR aswell as they are fairly cheap (by comparison), but don't know how that would fair in the UK market (conidering the some experience is better than none approach).

Helipolarbear

In all fairness - don't ask, don't get, it may be a long shot for B99 pal, but it is still a shot in the tight industry.
And judging from the remarks that I have seen PPRUNEFAN#1 make before, he couldn't make a comment in the 'nicest possible way' if he tried.
If everyone was as harsh as he is, he would scare people away from even considering trying to join the industry - or is that his aim? - must be a bl00by conspiracy:suspect:

[HeloTeacher]

There is another consideration.

I know in the past I have found it frustrating to have very low-time pilots pestering me (and my colleagues have felt the same) with resumes and endless phone calls about a job they know dam well they don't have the experience for. At least one guy I can think of right now will never get the job no matter how many hours he gets, his persistence saw to that.

I'm glad I'm not in that part of the business any more.

Never forget to use discretion as well.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Bravo 99 raged:If the guy can get a multi heli instrument rating with 270 hours when he started then he cannot be all that bad I like my collegue previous am only trying to help a fellow pilot not take the piss i thought there was supposed to be a bond in aviation but thats only me of the old school
by the way have you got a UK IR multi instrument rating by any chance
just out of cureosity
this guy needs a job and having invested and achieved the results i take my hat off to him
take the piss all you like but do it on the planks page and leave proper pilots to try to help othersHey, I take my hat off to your friend too! But I wasn't trying to start a fight. I was merely curious as to whether other professional (i.e. working) helicopter pilots thought that a guy with very low time- and most of it in an R-22- would be qualified for a job flying a 430 off a boat (note that the ad said nothing about it being a two-pilot job). See, I do a bit of hiring in this business, and hadn't thought that the industry had gotten to that point. And as evidenced by the posts from ELITEHELICOPTERS and Helipolarbear, it hasn't. Yet.

Bravo, I'm glad you're trying to help your friend. But a whopping 60 hours in an AS-355 does not make him a command PIC in one, nor does it even make him a competent multi-engine helo pilot. The fact that you think so tells me that you are either not a commercial helicopter pilot or you know very, very little about this business- no offense intended.By the way i notice that you are from the US
(speaks for its self I think)OUCH! Cut me to the quick, you did! But speaking of quick, I wouldn't be so quick to mention speaking. Here in the U.S., I notice that many people know how to spell and use punctuation, and use proper grammar. Perhaps English (and apparently Aviation) is not your first language, so I am willing to make some allowances.

Good day, sir!

[Bomber ARIS]

Bravo 99

I am not an American pilot, but like other on this thread I would be intersted in reading your reasons for despising Mr Lappos, Mr Coyle, Mr SAS and their cronies. Such a gross generalisation suggests a rather major chip on one's shoulder (You firemen are a sensitive lot, aren't you!?)

I am well aware that it is fashionable to denigrate any and all comments by our fellow Rotorhead, Mr PPRUNE FAN#1, but I find it hard to believe that you "freak" when he posts that which everyone with half a years worth of real-world experience was thinking.

PS Would I be correct in thinking that you and your friend are one and the same person???

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Power Up:And judging from the remarks that I have seen PPRUNEFAN#1 make before, he couldn't make a comment in the 'nicest possible way' if he tried.
If everyone was as harsh as he is, he would scare people away from even considering trying to join the industry - or is that his aim? - must be a bl00by conspiracy.Now hold on there, newbie. If you are as you say still in training, then you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground about aviation. So here's a little clue for you: Most accidents are STILL the result of "human factors" (our politically-correct, modern way of saying PILOT error).

Over the years, I have seen pilots make some tremendous, idiotic mistakes. Over the years, *I* have made some tremendous, idiotic mistakes. I am hard on other pilots, but I am equally as hard if not more so on myself. I do not tend to absolve pilots of their responsibility for their actions.

Take the case of that nitwit in the U.K. who crashed his Gazelle recently whilst making an off-airport landing. He didn't do a proper recon, didn't see wires in his approach path, and then when he *did* finally see them, he yanked back on the cyclic so hard that he cut his own tailboom off! And everyone here on this board clucks their tongues and goes, "Oh, poor chap, bad bit o'luck there, eh what?" I say: HEY DUMBA$S, LEARN TO FLY A HELICOPTER!

In the U.S. a couple of weeks ago, we had an EMS BK-117 crash. The pilot inadvertently flew into IMC, must have gotten spatially disoriented and got the ship inverted at <1000' agl. Somehow...miraculously, he managed to get it back right-side-up just before hitting the ground. Somehow...miraculously, everybody onboard lived instead of dying an awful death. And instead of thanking God to be alive, our hero pilot started deflecting the blame away from himself. It wasn't his fault, oh no. It was the fact that he didn't have radar! Yeah, that's it.

Jesus H. Christ! Give me a big, fat break. The unmitigated gall!

Harsh? Yes. Needlessly harsh? Heck, no.

I have learnt many things the hard way in this business...things that I could (and should) have learned from the various manuals and texts available to me and every other pilot. Have I crashed any helicopters? Not yet, knock wood. But what I've learnt is that flying helicopters is all about risk management, and pilots are right horrible risk managers sometimes.

This is a board by definition is "...A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them." It is not a place for "wannabes" to come to bask in warm/fuzzy feelings of camaraderie and friendship.

Aviation is cruel. It does not tolerate incompetence for long. This is especially true in helicopters, which are incredibly critical and unforgiving of lapses in judgement or attention. This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter.

When supposedly experienced, knowledgeable pilots stop crashing perfectly good helicopters for no damn reason, then I'll stop being so "harsh."

Bomber ARIS to Bravo 99:PS Would I be correct in thinking that you and your friend are one and the same person???Hoo-man, do great minds think alike or what!

[Decimal]

TO Professional Prick Fan #1

Well I`ve had to bit my lip on many occasion reading your pathetic little banter, and now I`ve had it.

Quote

This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter.

You`re saying that a 350hr R22 pilot should not enter the commercial field. You need a wake up call. I bet you trained on 300`s.

I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude. You assume to much. If you do - I would suggest you are the most unpopular guy in the hangar - and if you really are as idiotic in your statements as you are on this forum, then surely the industry would have filtered out twats like you by now.

Bravo`s mate, quite rightly has good qualifications - and networking is the only way to get a helo job these days. If you have a job, I`d be interested to know what you`re qualfications were when you were hired and what you`re first job was. But then again, you`ve been asked that before on this forum - and you`ve given no response. I tell you my response sunshine - you`re full of SH1TE!!

With your attitude on this forum and the apparent reflection on your daily life, indicates YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!

I have not seen anyone in favour of your opinions or statements on this forum - I suggest you go to the model helicopter worlds forum.

Oh, and by the way - you are the reason people on this forum have a disjointed view of US pilots. Crying shame - cos I think they`re a damn good bunch of guys

Decimal

PS Dear Mods, please accept my apologies for this, but I think you`ll agree this is a long time coming - I don`t mind if you ban me - there`s plenty of other sites where PP 4 inch doesn`t exist.

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

What is it with you eejits? Not that I really know ****e from shoe polish but the Prune Fan Number One really hasn't come up with anything on this forum which you wouldn't expect or respect from the average Chief Pilot of any reputable organisation. Firm but fair if you ask me. But hell what do I know.

Ergo no ego.

[John Eacott]

The gospel according to PP#1:

"Aviation is cruel. It does not tolerate incompetence for long. This is especially true in helicopters, which are incredibly critical and unforgiving of lapses in judgement or attention. This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter."

Well I do, I have, and I will continue to do so. How on earth do you expect our industry to advance and prosper with such stone age attitudes as expounded by PP#1.

There are times when you really do put your foot in it, PP, and this is yet another one.

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

10,000 Hour Party anyone - don't be late now!

[John Eacott]

Not this weekend, dear, I've got a headache :ok:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Let's tie up a few loose ends...I mentioned that we do not put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's or in *any* commercial helicopter flying job for that matter. I thought that most people were intelligent enough to realize that I meant "as PIC." Well, maybe not. John Eacott weighed in:Well I do, I have, and I will continue to do so. How on earth do you expect our industry to advance and prosper with such stone age attitudes as expounded by PP#1.Get real, John. I used to respect you. But if you expect any of us to believe that you would put a 350-hour Robbie pilot as a PIC in a turbine, you're out of your mind. Say, uh...which insurance company do you use?


Decimal:You`re saying that a 350hr R22 pilot should not enter the commercial field. You need a wake up call. I bet you trained on 300`s.

I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude. You assume to much. If you do - I would suggest you are the most unpopular guy in the hangar - and if you really are as idiotic in your statements as you are on this forum, then surely the industry would have filtered out twats like you by now.

Bravo`s mate, quite rightly has good qualifications - and networking is the only way to get a helo job these days. If you have a job, I`d be interested to know what you`re qualfications were when you were hired and what you`re first job was. But then again, you`ve been asked that before on this forum - and you`ve given no response. I tell you my response sunshine - you`re full of SH1TE!!

With your attitude on this forum and the apparent reflection on your daily life, indicates YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!Gee, I guess the 20+ years and 10,000+ accident-free hours I've spent in this industry must be all fake, eh? Or a fluke? Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about!

For the record, I emigrated to the U.S. in the early 1970's, where I did my helo training in Bell 47's...old "straight" G-models with Franklin engines that we flew in the summertime with the throttle wide-open...the type of ship that makes today's R-22 seem like a veritable powerhouse. As a dual-rated, civilian-trained pilot, my first helicopter flying job was as an SIC until I possessed 1,000 hours at which time I became a PIC. I knew I was good, but also knew I wasn't that good. My ego kept getting me close to crashing, but my humility kept me from going completely there. And you know what? Unlike a lot of you so-called (and self-described) "experts," helicopters keep teaching me stuff. Because I always want to keep learning from them.

At the 350-hour level, nobody would've hired me as a PIC then, and nobody would now. In fact, to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous, Eacott's LSD-induced hallucinating to the contrary. You fellows can dream all you want, but it won't make it so. Bravo 99's mate does not have "good qualifications." He has 350 total hours and sat in an AS-355 while he got his IR. He has done very little that would make me look at his resume twice. Maybe not even once.

And Decimal, your insults/criticism are noted. As for your assertion that I'm the "...most unpopular guy in the hangar," you may be right. However I don't worry about that because if it is so, then I am the most unpopular CHIEF PILOT guy in the hangar. The feedback I get is generally positive, but you never know. Behind my back, people may surely consider me the biggest A-hole to ever walk the face of the earth. But you know what? I don't care. Because I've made it to a certain point in my life, in my career and in this industry. And I've seen more than one compatriot (or copardray as Bravo 99 would call it) die along the way. It's never easy to take. Never. So you guys can just kiss my rosy red arse.

Any of you nitwits who think 350-hour Robbie pilots are ready for prime time are just nuts. Put down the crackpipe and step away from the drugs! Don't come knocking on my door until you know how to fly, are able to prove it and have the quals to back it up. I'll send you to Eacott. Maybe he'll put you in one of his BK's as a PIC.

[Power Up]

PP#1
So as a newie / wannabe in helicopters, I or any other students are not allowed to read / post opioins on a professionals forum such as this - so again limiting our available material to gain knowledge of the industry - cheers

With due respect, I don't think insurance will cover you, or employer may not consider due to hours and/or experience / Get serious.
These are two very different ways of giving an opinion to a genuine question, please do not tell me you are involved in PR for the company you work for.

So as I qualify with a CPL, you believe that I cannot operate a B206 as PIC? - I already know a guy who does.

Personally (don't know if anyone agrees), you sound arrogant, and suffer from quite an ego, even with your number of hours, I don't think I would want to fly with you.

I know th majority of incidents involve pilot error - and accidents happen to people from 10 hours to 10 000hours

[Dynamic Component]

PP#1,

I guess it does not count that I got my first commercial job AS PIC in a TURBINE with 160 hrs.

Mate, if you keep on digging the hole only gets deeper:hmm:

Oh, and John-you still have my respect:}

[tecpilot]

1. I feel confident that nobody could seriously believe to find a SPIFR Job on a twin like a Bell 430 with 350h.
2. Nobody will believe that a owner of a multi-million bucks ship is ready to fly with a newbie
3. Insurance will start to laugh if they read the CV

If the guy will work as hard as up to time he will make his way and my be in a few years he is ready for a job like this.
To get the first 1000-1500h isn't easy. :{

@DC
There are some "little" differences between a light turbine ship and the jobs such helos have to do and one of the latest twins on SPIFR Ops off shore.

If the ship is at full sail, the 430 must be operated sometimes in foreign airspace and conditions. Expect the usual problems a newbie have never heard and can not imagine. Good luck!

@ John Eacott

You agree with me that is it perhaps possible to check out a 350h pilot on a BK 117 used on operations the new guy knowns in known area. And you personally know the guy and his manner to do the job! But i couldn't believe you will check out an unknown 350h pilot on one of your BKs only by his CV.

[John Eacott]

PP1,

Your statement:

"This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter."

I stand by my response, that "I do, I have, and I will continue to do so". I failed to elaborate, posting mid afternoon over a cup of coffee, but, mea culpa.

I've had the priviledge of putting one low time (c.200+hrs) piston only helicopter pilot into a JetRanger, after much assessment, discussion with our insurers (QBE Aviation, who have always been extremely supportive), and supervision. She is doing well, and moving steadily along a progressive path of more complex operations as her skills improve. Other helicopter pilots with <500 hours have started with a modicum of turbine time, but have progressed to eventually move on, to such as EMS, Police, etc. They are excellent pilots, and I am pleased for them.

On the fixed wing side, generally our pilots start with as little as 3-400hrs TT, and are able to fly well maintained machines, day & night, building up experience under good supervision, until they can move on to multi/IFR ops. Some have gone on to airlines, some to RFDS, all have gone with as sound a background of practical aviation as we can give. The alternative for too many young hopefuls these days is to be a hangar rat, taken advantage of by less scrupulous operators, and with a slim chance of getting to their chosen career.

Without some of us "older" f*rts giving back to the industry that which we have been lucky enough to get, there will be a dearth of good pilots coming through. I cannot see the advantage of denigrating a low time pilot simply because he or she has less than 1000 hours: some have developing skills which will put them ahead of you or I, given half a chance. None of us is perfect, but it behooves us to help the next generation, not hinder it.

[Bomber ARIS]

"La!La!La!La!La!La!La!La!I'm not listening to you!"La!La!La!La!....."

Come off it, folks!

This forum is a phenomenal resource for helicopter pilots, whatever the size of their log books. However, at moments such as this I feel that we let ourselves down.

The newcomers to this industry are rightly keen to ask for the low-down from those with a little time in the saddle. (It's something that would have been invaluable to the more seasoned among us, back in the dark days B.P. (Before PPRuNe!).

Now, if you do take your valuable time to reply, may I implore you to read on. It would be understandable to think that the truth were required when formulating one's reply, but I have observed that this is not so. It appears that in questions of the future and the possible rocky road ahead, the questioner expects, nay, demands that the reply delivers a warm and fuzzy feeling. To appease the hyper-sensitive, naive histrionics of the baying masses, much smoke need be blown up their collective arses.

Please understand. I am not referrring to the laudable mentoring/apprenticeship programs, such as that administered by Mr John Eacott. I'm very much aware of the effort and investment in people that these initiatives require, and it is due to people such as John that many fine, safety conscious pilots enter this industry. For this he deserves respect, not castigation.

That which I am specifically addressing is the original post. I still find it difficult to believe that people are prepared to countenance the idea of B99, sorry, B99's 350-hr friend assuming the role of Captain of a complex, IFR twin, engaged in international shipborne operations, with such a paucity of real world experience. It already reads like the introduction to an accident report.

Sure, many would love to get that gig as a first job, but the world isn't like that and the world owes not one of us a living.

Peace

[HeloTeacher]

PPrune Fan #1 wrote:


At the 350-hour level, nobody would've hired me as a PIC then, and nobody would now. In fact, to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous, Eacott's LSD-induced hallucinating to the contrary. You fellows can dream all you want, but it won't make it so. Bravo 99's mate does not have "good qualifications." He has 350 total hours and sat in an AS-355 while he got his IR. He has done very little that would make me look at his resume twice. Maybe not even once.


Well, you've just shut down the entire Canadian helicopter industry. There are few IFR or multi-crew machines, limited military outflow, and a regulatory restriction against newly licenced pilots from instructing. Yet, we manage to have a flett of a little better than 1000 helicopters in the country. We all hire, mentor, and turn loose 100-hr R22 pilots year after year. We don't put then into SPIFR 430's but nor do we consider them incompetent.

Well spoken John,

Without some of us "older" f*rts giving back to the industry that which we have been lucky enough to get, there will be a dearth of good pilots coming through. I cannot see the advantage of denigrating a low time pilot simply because he or she has less than 1000 hours: some have developing skills which will put them ahead of you or I, given half a chance. None of us is perfect, but it behooves us to help the next generation, not hinder it.

is exactly what we need.

I still hold the position I earlier voiced that B99's friend should be careful in how he goes about pursuing this position or any other, but to say he is unemployable is laughable.

[paco]

PP Fan - sorry, but to this chief pilot you're talking b*ll*cks.

"to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous"

I could name you more than 20 right now, and probably half are on turbines. And what's the big deal about a twin anyway (up to say, AS 355 level)? It's just another engine, and you don't get the asymmetric problems you get in a fixed wing. If this idiot can haul missiles around a battlefield at 200 hours (in a turbine), then other people can move passengers around an oil patch. I know this - I would rather put a newbie in a 206 or even a 407 than a robbie (yeah, yeah, I know it has some good qualities, but a modern machine with a fadec can take a hell of a lot off the workload).

Despite what they tell you, most companies are insured for low-timers - they just don't want to spend money on training. Speaking personally, based on some of the activities I see around the fire circuit I would in many cases rather hire low-timers. They are certainly more careful - any bad habits they have are more often than not learned from people who should know better. A lot of high timers I know simply have a small amount of experience repeated several hundred times rather than a progressive learning curve.

I have flown with people who have 17,000 hours who I wouldn't trust on a bicycle, and people with 1000 whom I would trust with anything. Attitude and structured training are more important than just hours, and the sooner some parts of the industry and the idiot "consultants" that advise the customers otherwise realise this, the better off we will be.

Anyhow, the original post mentioned a boat - well, as with many things, it not the instrument but what you do with it that causes trouble, and mucking around offshore with rich people is not a job for someone who might have difficulty saying NO! (been there, done that)

Phil

[Decimal]

Well said Paco, Heloteacher, and especially John.

TO PPrune Fanny #1,

I`m glad you`ve noted the insults/criticism - they are well deserved. I hope you`re sitting comfortably on your quote "rosy red arse".
I couldn`t care less if you`ve got 10,000 or 30,000 hrs. It doesn`t mean anything. Attitude and professionalism - and knowing ones own personal limitations are what counts. You might have the latter - which is why you still grace the skies with your presence - but judging from your posts and the manner in which you deliver unthought out, ridiculous and frankly unfounded statements, indicates you have not an ounce of the first two.

The reason this industry is struggling at the moment is due to CPs and Ops Mgrs like you. More should take a leaf out of John`s book. The trouble is - they invest time, money and heartache into developing low time guys to get them industry ready.
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

They get poached by a company with a CP like you - who wasn`t prepared to nurture the young inexperienced pilot, pay the insurance rates, accept the fact that YES a tail rotor strike MIGHT happen to this new guy - but they still do it. And that is why you get pilot resumes with 1000+ , because you don`t have the balls to take responsibility for the sub1000. If it weren`t for a few operators that do take that responsibility - this Industry would be in even more dire straits.

I know plenty of guys who got command VFR positions around the 2-300 mark - some even lower than that. Most of them on Turbines! It was their attitude etc that got them there - nothing to do with hours. Conversely, I have flown with pilots who have 4000, 6000, 12000 hrs.....who cares! I`ve had to take a deep breath on many occasion as to the danger they put themselves,crew and aircraft in - unneccesarily! Maybe they`re unconciously incompetent - I don`t know - it can happen to people at any stage in their career. The beauty is -- low time guys are conciously incompetent. They know they`re crap - which is the best position to be in.

It is plainly obvious that Braavo`s buddy would need a heck of a lot more experience to get such a job - that is what the industry demands for such a role - but that doesn`t mean he is incapable of doing it. The point I, and a lot of others take issue with is the comment "350hr Robbie pilot not ready for commercial work." I guess PP if you ran the CAA`s across the world you`d have everyone needing a full ATPL before being let loose. Yep, that would achieve a lot.

You keep on truckin there, sounds like you`re doing a fine job.

Decimal

Mods - this is well off topic, can Danny create a Jet Blast for rotorheads? or move this to a new thread? This thread is for job seekers - and they will only be disillusioned by this chief pilot who knows best.:yuk:

I agree we're going well off topic, and I'll split it when I can find time. A 'Rotorheads Jetblast'? The only similarity with the type of posts on Jetblast is silly personal attacks on people with opposing opinions. Heliport

[Say again s l o w l y]

PPF#1, so how do you suggest a newly qualified commercial pilot gets the hours up? Instructing? Far more dangerous than going from A to B in something like a jet ranger.

There are very few Multi crew jobs outside of the north sea (JCB excepted), so if someone with 350 Hrs is so incompetent, why did the licencing authority give them a ticket?

Good on you John, I'm glad to see there are still some good and sensible people in this industry, despite muppets like PPF#1.

[tecpilot]

Sorry guys, a lot of you says that it isn't a great deal to fly a single turbine or a twin turbine. That's right, it's simple!
I can teach any low timer, any PPL Pilot in 1 or 2 weeks to fly the ship manually, to know the FM. But what's impossible in a few weeks?

TO TEACH EXPERIENCE!!!

What is experience? Experience is important and life saving in our job! Experience ist the hope and the chance in changing and challenging situations to react, to valuate and to survive.

like Sir J.Herschel:

"Experience may be acquired in two ways; either, first by noticing facts without any attempt to influence the frequency of their occurrence or to vary the circumstances under which they occur; this is observation; or, secondly, by putting in action causes or agents over which we have control or we have no control, and purposely varying their combinations, and noticing what effects take place; this is experiment"

I could not believe that some of you guys will prefer the "experiment"? I don't valuate to high the flighthours of an applicant. It's important to have the necessary knowledge of the business or the potentiality to learn the job under controlled circumstances.
The experiment to push a low timer in a SPIFR-off shore-international operation is crazy. The suicide begins with the correct weather go-nogo selfmade decision via equipment failure off shore to thousands unpredictable points.

I wouldn't allow a 350h pilot, for example, to fly VFR on a long night trip, self flight and weather prepared, crossing several weather areas in the european winter without an experienced supervision pilot. Have often seen the wide and white eyes of unexperienced pilots at night if all of a sudden the aft position lights could be seen in front of the a/c (reflection in the clouds) and the wiper begins to icing, followed by the pax question: How many time we need to destination? You know i have a real important date!
To avoid (first rule) and inside such situations you need more than manually flight skills.
Haven't seen in the last 20 years to much newbies they could handle the pressure of owner/boss/chief...

[paco]

My point exactly :)

phil

[rotordk]

'Experience is the most difficult teacher, because she gives the test first, and the lesson after'
-Mark Twain

[Say again s l o w l y]

Tecpilot, very true. No sensible person would advocate sending an inexperienced person into a dodgy situation such as night VFR (Man, I hate that. I cannot believe it's legal.) if they haven't at least experienced it before or have a safety pilot with them.

My issue is that PPF#1 is slagging off John Eacott for having a very sensible scheme that allows people to build up their experience under supervision. I wish more companies did that. I know I would have/still would have benefitted from that.

[ShyTorque]

All this stuff about 350 hour PIC etc got me thinking about my own experiences. So I got the old logbooks out.

At TT 350 hrs (115 of those on ab-initio jet fixed wing) I was given captaincy on a twin turbine, 7,000 kg helicopter. By 380 hrs TT, I was let loose by myself to fly the army in the Central American Jungle.

Still safely here, after some 24 years of continuous flying employment later.

But I do think I would have needed a bit more time to be based on a boat. Even more if it was dark...

$hit, I just agreed with PF#1! :)

SAS, what this JCB thing? Aren't they diggers? Why do you need 2 pilots to drive a digger? :confused:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Hoo-boy! Aren't you a touchy lot!

Power Up:So as a newie / wannabe in helicopters, I or any other students are not allowed to read / post opioins on a professionals forum such as this Well...this *is* a forum for professional pilots, so your "opioin" (whatever that is) is worthless. And even when you get your CPL your opioin will still be worthless. Because you're not a professional until you do it for money.So as I qualify with a CPL, you believe that I cannot operate a B206 as PIC? - I already know a guy who does....Flies PIC as a commercial pilot with just a CPL? Bull.Personally (don't know if anyone agrees), you sound arrogant, and suffer from quite an ego, even with your number of hours, I don't think I would want to fly with you.Don't worry, sonny, I can assure you that with *your* attitude, I would never let you into my cockpit, much less even point out to you which one is the cyclic. Now go back to the "wannabe's" forum where your opioin might have some weight, and leave *this* forum to the professionals because you have nothing constructive to add here. NEXT!

Dynamic Component:I guess it does not count that I got my first commercial job AS PIC in a TURBINE with 160 hrs.Liar. You flew commercially in a turbine helicopter with 160 hours total time?? Nope. Uh-uh. That's just a flat, out-and-out, baldfaced lie. NEXT!

Sez Eacott:I've had the priviledge of putting one low time (c.200+hrs) piston only helicopter pilot into a JetRanger, after much assessment, discussion with our insurers (QBE Aviation, who have always been extremely supportive), and supervision. She is doing well, and moving steadily along a progressive path of more complex operations as her skills improve.She is doing well?? Good God, there's an accident waiting to happen. John, you're not just asking for trouble, you're begging for it! Then again, if you did actually put a chippie in as a command pilot of a 206, I'm sure you don't have to beg her for anything. ;)

And hey John, you sound noble. If you want to take on such huge risks, go right ahead. But you know...I mean you KNOW that there is no substitute for flight time. Would you have hired *yourself* with only 160 hours total time? I thought not. Turn a girl loose in a JR with only 200 hours? That's pure idiocy. Ferry flights....maybe. But what else can she do? Charter? Longline? EMS? Oh yeah. Not! NEXT!

For the Canadian view of things, this from Helo Teacher:We all hire, mentor, and turn loose 100-hr R22 pilots year after year. We don't put then into SPIFR 430's but nor do we consider them incompetent.But they are. Of course you can turn a Robbie pilot loose with 100 hours. But not as a working pilot. Not even with 200 hours! If that were true, then Frank Robinson would have to divert his entire production run of R-22's to Canadian schools, which would have students lined up out the door and around the block. Another fabrication. NEXT!

Then there's Taco. Ahhhh, Taco:If this idiot can haul missiles around a battlefield at 200 hours (in a turbine), then other people can move passengers around an oil patch. Good Lord, do you guys even READ what you write? I'll give you one thing, Taco, you got that self-assessment thing down pat. You were referring to yourself about carrying missiles around battlefields, no? But 200-hour oil field pilots? OH YEAH! Dream on, McDuff. NEXT!

Decimal:The reason this industry is struggling at the moment is due to CPs and Ops Mgrs like you. More should take a leaf out of John`s book. The trouble is - they invest time, money and heartache into developing low time guys to get them industry ready. AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?They crash.They get poached by a company with a CP like you - who wasn`t prepared to nurture the young inexperienced pilot, pay the insurance rates, accept the fact that YES a tail rotor strike MIGHT happen to this new guy- Yes and they MIGHT kill themselves and they MIGHT be carrying passengers when they do it and I MIGHT not want to have that on my conscience (see: Omniflight EMS helicopter crash on 9/9/02 and thread about same on this very board).The point I, and a lot of others take issue with is the comment "350hr Robbie pilot not ready for commercial work." I guess PP if you ran the CAA`s across the world you`d have everyone needing a full ATPL before being let loose.You're taking one thing and making a huge leap to another. I never said any such thing- only that 350-hour Robbie pilots are unemployable as commercial, professional PIC's. Don't go putting words in my mouth, Dec. NEXT!

Finally, the inimitable Bravo 99. This guy is some piece of work!:I answer only one quistion that is no we are not one in the same and yes my log book goes into 4500 hours.4500 hours of sitting in front of a computer playing Flight Sim that is.I HAVE JUST READ A LITTLE FURTHER THIS P PRUNE WHAT EVER HE CALLS HIM SELF. THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE **** AND WANTS DECKING
DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS Well now my boots are quaking! Gee, I better not ever return to Mother England, lest I happen into a pub and hear, "So YOU'RE the number one PPRUNE FAN, eh????" right before some twit conks a beer bottle over me noggin. Oh wait- I'll never run into Bravo 99's "friend" in a pub. I don't go in gay bars!O AND BY THE WAY HE IS FREQUENCY ADAPTOR AND HIS
COMPUTER IS DOWN BUT I HAD A LITTLE CHAT AND HE IS ITCHING TO RESPOND SO HEADS UP FOR MONDAY I THINK IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING RESPONCEYes, can't wait for him to get here and post his opioin. Bravo, you should save all that macho, blustery junior high school posturing for...well, for your little junior high school friends. It might work with them.i did not think that a simple reply would course world war threeWell you *did* course it, so we might as well let it run its cause. Why? Just because, of course.

Guys, guys, guys...enough. It's one thing to offer encouragement to newbies. Yeah, that's great. But to lie to them and say that it is possible to obtain employement as a commercial pilot with well under 500 hours is just dishonest. It's not reality. It's fantasy. Perhaps if you knew the guy from day one, had monitored his training, and could give some continuous "hands-on" mentoring (like Eacott must be doing to that bird;)), then it might be possible. But if a guy shows up on my doorstep with 350 hours total time (most of it in Robbies) and I don't know him from Adam but he's got this stellar recommendation from "someone" who calls himself Bravo 99... I'd say, "Hit the bricks, sailor, we've no need for your sort 'round here. Move along."

Let's face it, someone with less than 500 hours is simply not going to be doing the things that people pay us to do with helicopters. EMS? Not on your life. ENG? Same thing. Charter? Are you joking? In the U.S., you can't even do charters under FAR 135 with less than 500 hours. Tours/rides? Not into and out of a confined area...and not with *MY* helicopter.

That leaves the odd ferry flight or maintenance test hop. But most low-timers I've met couldn't detect or quantify a high-freq vibration even with a tuning fork stuck up their bum. So...send a newbie out to do a track&balance? Nope.

Make all the comparisons you want about how little flight time you military guys had when you were turned loose as "captain" of your aircraft. It's apples and foosballs, and does not equate in the real world (you know, the one with real risks that insurance companies have to cover). So let's drop this pretense.

My original question was whether Bravo 99 honestly thought his "friend";);) was competent and qualified to fly a 430 off a boat. We now know that Bravo 99 believes that he is. We now know a little bit more about Bravo 99 than we did before...and about some of you lot as well. The rest of us...the ones who really know about this business, sit back, shake our heads and just go, "Boy, there sure are a lot of stupid people out there."

[pohm1]

PPF1

Got my first job as PIC of B206's with 114hrs in R22, 20hrs in B206 and no fixed wing experience.

8 of my colleagues started in the same way.

So it happens more than you may think!

[Jcooper]

You could probably teach a monkey to fly at 150 hrs. It is the decision making that determines the odds if a pilot will crash or not. A timid pilot will last much longer than a cocky a$$hole. All and all a 500 hr robbie pilot could do just as well if not better than a 1000 hr military pilot. Again its not the hours that count, its the decisions made up stairs.

[Red Wine]

Now thats a novel idea and may well be a well patronised [spelt with a "s"] Forum.

What do the rest of the regular Rotorheads think???


And no, Heliport don't go shuffling this thread elsewhere, we can sort out our little differences. [I hope].

[overpitched]

:D :D :D This thread is the most fun I have had in a long time. And in this case I gues I would have to agree with a lot of what PPF is saying, Or the spirit of it anyway.

I started with a company that hires pilots with bare cpl's and puts them into 44's and 47's but in a very structured environment. Lots of extra training and thay are closely monitored. For the first 5-600 hours they do the same flight ( yep 1 flight) over and over and over. No off field landings and just the occassional ferry

When they transition to a turbine, about 1000- 1200 they go back to the same scenic for another 50- 100 hours.

THe company in question has got an excellent safety record but I know for sure that would change straight away if they put their low hour pilots straight into jet rangers and sent them into the bush without all the training and supervision.

I think there is a good reason that there is very few jobs available to low hour pilots in this industry and that is that they are not really capable of doing them. sad but true

[the wizard of auz]

HMMMM, you wouldn't be bungelling on would you?. :}
I could be answering my own question on another thread.

[The Nr Fairy]

ShyT:

I think your experience is most telling. Take an ab-initio pilot, train them fully and properly, then supervise them on tasks within their limits. If you haven't trained them, supervise them even more closely. And even when they're supposedly fully trained and competent, supervise them !

[tecpilot]

@overpitched

That's the proper way! Build up experience under controlled circumstances and in limited environment, within sight by the colleagues and experienced fellows.

Military transitioned me to helicopters after 100h FW, direct to the helo twins, i have flown my first single helo with 800h twin hours. I made a/c commander on real missions, not on training flights, with 400h. But single or twin, it makes no difference. I was a bloody rooky! Sometimes i was really thrilled about things could happen under the blue sky, outside the class room. It's a slight advantage to have the military flight drill with all the formations, off fields, emergencies, sling loads, nights, sims, instruments, ... in a row compared to the civ training. And don't forget, in the army you start any action controlled by your crew chief, meteorologist, CO, ...

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Working as I do for a small helicopter charter outfit, I often receive unsolicited yet well prepared CVs from low time CPLs. Unfortunately, we are not currently in a position to take on more pilots but notwithstanding, the first thing I look at is the flying experience. Our Ops Manual requires a minimum of 1300 TT and 1000 hrs pic with significant turbine time, which filters out most applicants straight away. I have often been asked by such applicants to justify why we (and most other on-shore companies) insist on a relatively high level of experience when the CAA have deemed them competent to be issued with and hold a commercial ticket.

My answer is that commercial training and testing have determined that you meet the requirements of knowledge, skills, safety and accuracy to fly a helicopter commercially. So far, so good, except I would argue that the flying aspect probably amounts to no more than 20% of what operating a charter flight is all about (notice I use the word "operating" and not "flying"). The remaining 80%, involving being out there on your own dealing with awkward passengers, coping with last minute changes of plan, variable weather, minor unserviceabilities and trying to make a profit, can only come with experience, and experience is a function of time. There is no short cut to this. Once you reach the stage of hardly having to think of the flying, then you have the spare capacity to cope with these other aspects of the operation. Newly qualified doctors are not let loose on their own in dealing with the sick, lame and lazy. They continue to be suprvised by their consultant for some considerable time.

On areas such as the North Sea where multi-crew operations are the norm, the LH seat is under constant supervision and is able to gain the desired experience whilst also performing a useful function as a member of the crew. With your typical on-shore company operating a small turbine helicopter capable of carrying 4 passengers, if an inexperienced CPL is to spend a few hundred hours in the LH seat in order to gain experience, 25% of the payload becomes unavailable. Economically, this is unsustainable.

I do feel for the low hour CPLs in the Catch 22 situation of not being able to get a job without experience, and not being able to gain that experience without a job. Please hang on in there and make sure you are in a position to take advantage of changes in the job market as and when they occur.

Finally, as I hinted earlier, do not confuse "flying" with "operating".

Bon chance, mes braves!

[HeloTeacher]

PPF#1 wrote
My original question was whether Bravo 99 honestly thought his "friend" was competent and qualified to fly a 430 off a boat. We now know that Bravo 99 believes that he is. We now know a little bit more about Bravo 99 than we did before...and about some of you lot as well. The rest of us...the ones who really know about this business, sit back, shake our heads and just go, "Boy, there sure are a lot of stupid people out there."

incorrect

you actually stated
Aviation is cruel. It does not tolerate incompetence for long. This is especially true in helicopters, which are incredibly critical and unforgiving of lapses in judgement or attention. This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter.

to which we have relied to clarify, to you as well as B99's buddy, that while he is probably not ready in our eyes to work a SPIFR 430 off the back of a boat, he is certainly ready to get into commercial flying. As many of us and others have as well.

I do wish the Job's Afloat post had not been merged with this one so we could have kept this seperate but so be it.

But they are. Of course you can turn a Robbie pilot loose with 100 hours. But not as a working pilot. Not even with 200 hours! If that were true, then Frank Robinson would have to divert his entire production run of R-22's to Canadian schools, which would have students lined up out the door and around the block. Another fabrication. NEXT!

Most of these guys worked 4 to 6 months as ground crew for us learning the ropes and seeing the customer/pilot interaction. They worked in gas well servicing, pipeline patrol, and similarly controlled environments. One contract required a popout float equipped R44 to conduct passenger opertions to raised metal helipads throughout a shallow lake and the customer requirement was 400 hrs total time. Several pilots were put on the job with a waiver and flew safely with less time than our topic of conversation. Many of these pilots had been moved to turbines well before 500 hours.

Your inability to educate and mentor your staff may require you to hire the experienced but I have worked for many managers who took a much more enlightened and successful view.

If we actually demanded any newly licenced pilot to sit in the co-pilot seat of a twin for 1000 hours before being permitted into the VFR market, the industry would shut down.

That's enough for now I think.

BTW, no more code names here at this point.

My name is Wade Pelly and I will happily stand behind what I have written.

[overpitched]

Wizard....


Have I Bungled ??

[tecpilot]

AJB

please allow the following questions:

How many hours you have flown under real instruments?
Have you ever seen surprising extreme low ceilings, real icing and turbulent conditions, go arounds with limited fuel, single pilot AP failure?
How you have acted on the 30' - 3h flights in MD 902 and A 109?
What have you seen and trained in 6 night hours, under which met conditions and ground illuminations?
What kind of missions / flighthours (short real life) you have flown in the 206, 355 and 22 less training hours?

Please understand me right! I don't want to push you down, but remember as PIC you have full responsibility to your family, pax, employer, insurance and your personally life.
That's why you have to questioning yourself. Will i do everything for a job or will i use my brain.

I'm shure you are qualified for the next 500 flight hours on VFR Day conditions on shore in light turbines or pistons, after a good supervision on the missions and conditions you have to do. One step after another.

[overpitched]

AJB....

Good to see you've got the whole industry sorted out already. Sounds like you've got all the answers. A top start to a bright career I reckon!! Good luck.

[tecpilot]

AJB

I feel sorry for you, if you allways react in such manner, you will have a great career under your company fellows and i'm shure they will split their experiences with you.
You don't understand that pilots who have seen some years in the business also have seen some funerals, actions at law and a lot of trouble with authorities and insurance.

I hold my advice:

I'm shure you are qualified for the next 500 flight hours on VFR Day conditions on shore in light turbines or pistons, after a good supervision on the missions and conditions you have to do. One step after another.

But with add-on "check you attitude".

[alex212]

AJB
if you're not "one in the same" with B99, you certainly are his talk-alike brother. Having flown 89 hrs on instruments, your combined total on 206/355 of 90 hrs must all have been IF, or do you guys actually fly instruments on that 22? And those 30 minutes MD 902...is that airborne time, or does it include startup and shutdown procedures? Why not build your hours doing powerline or pipeline control for some time, even if it is for peanuts. Matter of fact is, 350 hours TT may look good to you or your B99 buddy, but the real world is out there where PP # 1 is making his living. He might sound a bit harsh, but with most of his statements he's spot on.
And finally, judging by your "back ground" facts and figures...23 years fire service. Now that sounds like big time experience to me.
Starting #1 - fire guard posted?

[tecpilot]

to AJB

from an "ass...le:

for an expert like you it must be clear, the melted, outburned and foam filled mass of metal on the right side of the picture is the wreckage of a 412 twin chrashed at night in surprising fog at the shortest final (<1000m) to destination. Seems you must see such pictures personally.

http://www.mek-server.de/BuK/einsaetze/2002/021124-B12.jpg

[HeloTeacher]

ABJ,

I'm disappointed. I certainly did not agree with PPF#1's assertion that someone with your experience is unemployable but your response on this forum is unwarranted. Many very experienced people, such as John Eacott and tecpilot just above this, have tried to explain to him that low-time will not necessarily mean dangerous. To lump them all into one very unflattering group the way you did does NOT speak highly of your maturity, despite all those years of experience you showed us.

You did the very thing you are angry at him for doing. Makes me sorry I tried in the first place. The pressures of customers and weather and serviceability and ATC and having your income riding on the decisions you make along with many peoples lives has similarities to other industries but also important differences. That is the experience you need to gain, no amount of training (or hours) will ever replace the experience and the good sense needed to apply it.

Overpitched and Charlie S Charlie, well said.

-Wade Pelly

[Wayne Jenkins]

It is not my intention to side with any particular viewpoint here, but rather post an occurrence that happened in the 1980’s here in Australia, that is relevant to this particular thread.

At that time, in Central Australia, there was a operator by the name of Central Australian Helicopters [CAH] that choose for its own reasons, to give lesser experienced pilots the chance to enter the industry with basic qualifications.

I was one of those pilots, so my account of events is as accurate as my memory allows.

CAH no longer exists in its own right after being amalgamated with a larger and then larger again fixed wing operator and finally ceased trading as a stand alone helicopter operator.

However in the period of approximately 1983 – 1989 CAH choose to give lesser experienced pilots the chance to operate its three B206L1’s and one B206B.

Within that period, I can recall around 15 pilots were given the opportunity of a lifetime, and were guided, coached and sometimes thrown into the deep end, to start their aviation careers.

I could name at least five pilots from that era that now hold senior and respected positions within the Australian Helicopter Industry [as well as senior fixed wing jet pilots], and all of them were given that chance to start their careers with either 65 hours or 105 hours total helicopter time. [The variance was due to the pilot either converting from fixed wing (65 hours) or starting from scratch (105 hours).

During that period with “lesser” experienced pilots there were no accidents, incidents or CASA action regarding pilots whatsoever.

Perhaps we were lucky, or perhaps we were coached and guided and were appreciative of the responsibility.!!

I guess the point I wish to make here is that it is not necessarily just the hours that count, but rather the philosophy, support and maturity of the organisation that guides the pilot in the long run.

[arviator]

Well, well, well. It seems everyone is getting a little hot and bothered.

Not everyone is the same and not everyone has the same opinion.

I say good luck to anyone trying to break into the industry. If they are misinformed about something, tell them. If not, leave them alone or better still help them.

I wish ABJ the best of luck with getting his first "pro" job. Keep plugging away and one day you will meet the right CP and get the job.

Thats what happened to the rest of us, one way or another.

[Whirlybird]

Well....

I hadn't been around here for a while, and seeing this thread running to so many pages, I hoped there might be some new jobs going. I mean, I quite enjoy having students trying to kill me, but I wouldn't mind a change. And what do I find? A battleground, but no new jobs. :{

Still, I learned a few things. I heard that 350 hour robbie pilots couldn't get commercial jobs on turbines. Funny, that, since I know one or two who have, doing charter work and pleasure flights in Jet Rangers. Of course it's rare. We all thought we'd get jobs like that, and most of us don't. But it's not impossible, and I thought it proved that persistence occasionally paid off. Which is why I was surprised when someone (Helo Teacher perhaps?) suggested not applying for jobs you probably aren't qualified for, as it pisses people off. Well, I guess it depends how you go about it; I still reckon determination will get you most places. It's got me most places throughout my life, and the helicopter world's not that different. So good luck to Bravo 99's mate. Mind you, as a 350 hour robbie pilot (no, I lie, over 360 now :) ), I don't think I could fly off a boat yet. But perhaps that doesn't necessarily mean that no-one could.

I also learned that certain people on this forum think my opinions are worthless are since I'm (a) female, and (b) a not-much-more-than 350-hour robbie pilot. I do count as "professional" in their eyes, since I get paid to fly helicopters; not much and not often, but paid nonetheless. Well, tough!!!! The mods seem quite happy to have me here. Till I get banned, I carry on posting, and recommend all who want to do the same. Those who don't like it can feel free to ignore me or flame me if they like. But maybe those who flame first and think afterwards should bear in mind that if they want to be taken seriously themselves, that just ain't the way to do it. No that I suppose the person I'm referring to cares, do you? ;)

Lastly, if this is going to turn into the Rotorheads Jet Blast Battleground thread, could we have another jobs thread back, so we don't have to keep trawling through the latest round of insults, entertaining though it is. Please! :D

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Since the last "Jobs Afloat" thread got merged into the other thread, I thought it best to continue my "thoughts" here.
(Thanks PF#1 - good idea. Heliport)

I seem to offend people. I don't know why. Maybe people just don't "get" me. It is true that I have met people who have zero sense of humor- the ones who take themselves so seriously that they become insufferable. We don't have to mention any names (BRAVO 99). I'm really a good bloke in real life...a hell of a good pilot with a huge ego and the big watch to go with it. But my personality doesn't seem to translate well into print. Might be because I hate pretense...well, that and stupid people. And there are a bunch of pretentious people out there. Yes, including you. (Okay, maybe not you but certainly most everyone else here.)

Moving on.

I've been in this business for a lot of years. And I would dearly like to know just exactly which jobs are out there for pilots with 160 hours total time. The guys I know who do pipeline/powerline patrolling would never hire someone so inexperienced to do that kind of critical work. Do countries other than the U.S. allow those with less than 500 hours total time to do general charter flights? I'd be surprised. That leaves...what...cattle mustering?

I know it sounds harsh, and B99/AJB may get royally pissed to hear it, but a 350-hour pilot in the U.K. is simply unemployable. Could they/he emigrate to Australia to be mentored by Generous John Eacott? No. Could they/he perhaps go to Canada and take advantage of the apparent glut of jobs for super-low-timers there? Not on your life. If those two things were possible, every low-time newbie here in the U.S. would be driving north across the border or booking trans-Pacific flights on Qantas.

I've been taken to task over why I don't take younguns under my wing and mentor them. I simply cannot. When I hire a pilot, he has to be able to do everything asked of him without constant supervision. That's one of the great things about helicopter flying...that's why we love it so: the autonomy! But that's also the bad thing about the business.

From the very beginning of my commercial career as a charter pilot, I found myself in perilous/dicey situations. Fortunately, with 1,000 big hours under my belt, I was somewhat prepared to deal with them. I shudder when I think about how I would have handled them 500 hours earlier. I probably would have died.

Even now, with considerable flight time/experience, I have sometimes been asked to do things that demanded every bit of skill I possessed. Often these tasks came up quite unannounced as the flight was already in progress. Heh- flying is unpredictable like that. The weather changes, or the customer's plans change...whatever. And there have been times in the cockpit even recently when I felt very much alone.

You can say what you want...think what you want. But to me, the thought of a 160-hour helicopter pilot out there doing commercial work just scares the bejebus out of me. Mentor or not, once they're out of sight you have no idea what they're doing, and you're just waiting for the phone to ring with the bad news. It just gives me the creeps.

Finally, a personal note to Whirly: If you get paid to do it, then you're a pro, honey. And frankly, I've thought that about you anyway from the beginning. Feel free to post here anytime.

[pohm1]

Where would you suggest everyone should go to get 1000/1500 hours before they can be a helicopter pilot?

[overpitched]

Why is it I wonder that all chief pilots are cranky old bustards ??:p


Speaking for Aus. You can get a mustering job here with no hours but you would need to have spent 5 or so years on the ground chasing cows on horseback first, so that way is not for everyone.

The way most other low hour pilots get a start in this country is either at "the rock" flying tourist laps, in the Kimberley flying tourist laps or on the great ocean road flying tourist laps. 500 - 1000 hours going round in circles under close supervision and you are getting ready to move up to general charter, turbines etc.

Instructing in this country is generally a high hour job. Plenty of instructors around with 8-10000 hours and the co-jo positions are asking for at least 500 maybe 1500 for a start.

I don't know of any 350 hour ifr 430 captains doing boat work in this country

[The Nr Fairy]

PF:

It may help if you let us know how you got from ab-initio past your first 500 hours. You may have posted it in the past, but I can't search for it.

My current situation ? 200 hours, mostly R22, but R44 and B206 type ratings, planning to hour build to the 300 I need for the instructor's course. Done very little adventurous stuff except for my trip to the US in 2002 which was for hour building, but I am in line for some R44 pleasure flying work this season. As the guy who offered me the work said, "It'll take a year or so before you're ready for the charter stuff into small fields in the back end of nowhere". And he's right.

My advantage is that at FAST, if I'm unsure about whether I can hack a task, I can discuss with one of three or four very experienced instructors, all of whom I've flown with (read "frightened") in the recent past. And the other mob - well, 2 ex-mil beefers with a business to protect are probably going to mention my quirks to me before I ask them "How did that go ?"

[John Eacott]

O'pitched,

We must know each other.......;)

[overpitched]

John

I'm sure I must be due for another beating.... So when I get the chance I'll drop down and say hello. Phone book carefully placed down back of pants to deflect boot!!

[Whirlybird]

PPRUNE FAN #1,

Thank you for those few kind words. ;) Nice to know I don't have to get ready for a fight. :)

I'm very new to the helicopter industry, but I have eyes and ears. I'm sure you are, in essence, correct. But there are exceptions. A few low hours pilots do get those jobs, usually because they know the right people and/or are in the right place at the right time. That's in the UK anyway; I don't know about elsewhere.

Whether they should get them is another matter. I guess I'm quite relieved at your view that we three-figure-hour pilots aren't capable of a lot...because the more I fly the more I realise how little I know. People say I'm lacking in confidence, which may be true (a common female complaint :( ), but I honestly think it's more that I know just enough now to know my own limitations, and I've had enough things nearly go wrong to know that helicopters can bite back. :eek:

But I too would be interested to know how you got your first 1000 hours. And the rest of you multi-thousand-hour pilots - how did you get started? I love instructing; I probably won't move elsewhere in the foreseeable future...even if I could. But I'd still like to know.

[Whirlygig]

PPF#1,

Your first post on this thread was just about reasonable; you were almost coming across as a human being who might have something worthwhile to say but no, you've gone and spoilt it with your last paragraph and, I'm afraid, it is that sort of remark that is earning your reputation for being a pillock. So please don't act all hurt and dejected.

I suspect that you are the sort of person who feels that they have to get the joke in first without any thought to the other person's feelings. It is a form of insecurity when you have to resort to insults to get your point across and does nothing for your professional reputation.

I have, in the past, agreed with the gist of what you have said but have also remarked that it could be put a little more kindly. Sadly, you don't feel the need to take care over the way in which you phrase things and obviously have NO regard for anyone else's feelings.

Please explain

1. How you got from 150 to 1,000 hours
2. How you envisage young pilots will replace the older pilots (and I imagine you are of the older generation) who have to retire. The military does not have the throughput of pilots these days - so how do you expect the helicopter industry to continue?
3. What steps are you taking to replace yourself when you have to retire.


However you choose to reply, I fully expect to be insulted by you and the chances are, I will be upset by it. I hope that that knowledge will make you feel big and clever. Yes, I am a woman (cue insults), yes, I am a private pilot with thoughts of taking a CPL(H) (cue insults) so, go on love - have a field day.

Whirlygig

[tecpilot]

In the middle european countrys like germany, austria, switzerland, france, netherlands, italy... it's nearly impossible to get a professional helicopterpilot job (PF1 ist right: "If you get paid to do it, then you're a pro") under 800-1000h. That's the reason why we have precious little helo pilots coming the civ way. I think below 10%.

The small number of newbies (the civil way) from this countrys coming in any case from the US flightschools, because to be a commercial inland is awfully expensive (>100.000 €) on the lowest level (R-22). May be they meet the JAA requirements to get their CPL, but no one meet the company requirements. Companies in Europe are extremely specialised. Nearly all of them are in the EMS or any kind of Airwork business, we have no tour operators, no mustering,... and they competing very very hard to get their money with rescue missions and any kind of sling load, agriculture, construction and logging. And most companies are small, employing only 3-12 pilots. It's hard to find uncle franks toys in the commercial business except flightschools and some pipeline controllers. More than 90% of the helos are turbine. The airspace restrictions, the receivables from authorities and insurance are hard to be safe and the environment and weather are complex and difficult. It's important, especially to survive the compete, for a company to be able to fly all kinds of cumstomer wishes immediately on the shortest way and in good quality. May be you have on the forenoon a sightseeing trip and afternoon a sling load construction work. If the sun goes down you get a alert call to shorthaul a climber. All in a AS 350 or 407 may be. How it could be diveded between the pilots? No, you need pilots ready to go into any possible action. The EMS guys have the JAA problem, no EMS PIC under 500 EMS hours or 1000h CoPilot. How could a civ get EMS hours? How could a civ get night hours? commercial night flights with single engines are JAA prohibited!How could a civ get hoisting or short haul hours?

Look at the "Code of practice" JAR-OPS 4! Then you will get a feeling for the next decades. Most ops will be limited by pilot flight hours. Shorthaul (now HELICOPTER HUMAN EXTERNAL CARGO HHEC), as example, will be probably limited to 300h sling load and 1000-1500(mountain) PIC hours. And so on... Same to agriculture, mountain, hoisting...

May be the only chance is to get a job as an aerial fotographer or on a pipeline.

Unfortunately!!!

@whirlybird
but I honestly think it's more that I know just enough now to know my own limitations
That's the first mistake of a newbie! No one of us knows enough !!! You can talk about your limitations after you have mastered (or Lady Luck was with you) a critical situation on your absolut limits, while you as a nonsmoker trying to light a cigarette with shuddering hands.

That's the reason why the most accidents happens with pilots between 200-800 hours. They know enough!

Don't worry!:ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Why is it that every puts this big issue on the difference between turbine and piston?

Turbines are a piece of cake compared to the load of c*ap that is fitted in Robbies etc. Yes of course you can over temp on on start, but certainly in the U.K you would have to try pretty hard. (Hot and High is different obviously.)

The old maxim that the bigger the heli, the easier it is to fly has always been true in my case. When I first moved from a R22 to a Jet Ranger, I couldn't believe the difference, I had so much more capacity straight away.

[tecpilot]

@Say again s l o w l y

It's not a question piston-turbine, it's a question of the missions to fly. How many younger guys (the older pilot generation, with experience on bigger pistons are nearly gone) have operated a piston (what's still in the business: Robinsons, H300 and the last 47ers) with max sling load in critical environment? I don't talk about the truck tire used on flightschools with robbos and H 300 to train sling loads. What kind of missions will be flown in the actual piston scene? And what kind of missions we have on 350, 407, ... ? What's the reason why we don't see many ultra light turbines like 330 or 480 in the business? They are not fullfilling the requirements of the market. No man will buy a turbine if a piston could also take the job.
I couldn't believe the difference, I had so much more capacity straight away.
That's the (mostly brain) capacity you need to fullfill the mission and to keep your eyes on mission specialities.

[SilsoeSid]

AJB,

We have met and I'm sure we will again soon, so I won't say anything here, but thanks for the slagging off anyway!

However, you replied earlier by using B99 s computer while yours was down.

Just a thought, but if you and B99 are not the same person, then why, when you used his computer, did you not use B99 s computer and log in with your own user name and password? :confused:

(I will not accept the answer that you have forgotten your details) ;)

Good luck, and my advice;
Instead of slagging everyone off, perhaps make friends with them. Come and visit us all and see what it's all about. With your contacts now, that shouldn't be a problem. :ok:

SS

Further to my last,

B99, How come after going back a bit I find;

posted 13th February 2004 18:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE from B99
"I answer only one quistion that is no we are not one in the same and yes my log book goes into 4500 hours."
UNQUOTE.

Looking at the profile on B99;

Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only) CPL/IR
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only) AS355 B206 R22
Biography 23 years fire service looking to work hems
Location Shropshire UK (I think)
Interests car rallies girls my kids Helicopter etc
Occupation Pilot

Then later on B99s post from AJB;

Bravo 99 has asked me to say something and as my pc is down I am using his
to correct the record I asked B99 to put the item on the forum regarding the 413 he did advise me you would be laughed at but I said nothing lost nothing gained.
so I am the guy that you should be taking th mike out of
and my quilifications and back round as follows.
23 years fire service
OIC of station
OIC brigade colour party
Queens Fire service Medal
206 30 hours
355 60 hours
22 249 hours
FNPT 1 30 hours
MD 902 30 mins
A109 3 hours
89 hour instrument
6 hours night
Multi engine IR
Flight instructor restricted
CRM
First aid BTLFQ

Now then I am no Columbo, but even I can smell a big one here.

I find this quite offensive that you have come here asking for advice, lying to us in the first place, don't like what you heard here and then start to slag US all off.
I believe that you have lost all creditability and respect for what you have worked so hard for, in the way you have treated this community.

Good luck, you'll now need it,

SS

[Helinut]

In the UK, the CAA normally insist that an operator puts a minimum level of PIC flying experience into the AOM requirements for command. I don't have the paperwork to hand at the minute. It varies, depending upon whether your AOC is pre JAR-OPS or not: my recollection is 500/700 hrs PIC.

Whirlybird's summary seems about right to me. I "bridged the gap" through instruction. (At the stage I did it, PPLs could instruct). In retrospect, it seems a bit doubtful that I taught others how to fly with so little experience, but:

so far none of my students have killed themselves;

they usually knew about my background and normally kept coming back for more;

I was exceptionally well-guided by a good mentor.

I was as keen as mustard and my enthusiasm seemed to rub-off

[As a freelancer you are likely to earn much more money as an instructor than as a S/E VFR charter pilot too]

Some AOC holders quietly seem to ignore any limits, or perhaps they have special deals with the CAA. The closely supervised route seems the obvious way to start - the situation is probably different in the UK from the US (for example) but it is possible to put together sightseeing trips over well know ground for newbees. In a similar way, pilots flying on pleasure flying 5 minute trips can also be effectively supervised.

However, the problem still exists at this stage and at others in the progression through helicopter flying. It is a function partly of the essence of the business and the nature of the work. Lots of helicopter flying is simply commercially marginal.

In my view it is seriously made worse by the appallingly structured regulations which are unrealistic. In the UK the CAA has no goal to encourage aviation (unlike the FAA in the US) AND IT SHOWS. In the UK we regulate our industries to the point of strangulation. We take a lot of fun out of what we do as a result of course. At the same time, our accident rates are no better than other countries. However, as previous comments have made clear, the problem of how to get the low hours is present in all countries; it is perhaps just a bit worse here.

What usually makes the difference is the determination of the individual. Whether or not this is the best selection criteria is another matter - but it seems to be the one that works.

[Watchoutbelow]

Ha ha ha. oh my sides, spot on SilsoeSid, after sitting down all morning reading through this thread I am amazed.
I don't know if it is just me but it seems like PPF1 is constantly spot on!

If you don't like his attitude tuff crap, the vast majority of Chief pilots think like that, unfortunately for us low timers!

I have always believed that most newbie's and low timers in the Heli industry are the kings of wishful thinking, always firmly beleiving that the big break is just around the corner, however, with 300 hours an I/R and a fair bit of turbine time under my belt I still stand in line in the dole cue!

I love flying, but I will admit I do regret going the commercial route, all I have to show is an empty wallet and a silly little useless book issued by the CAA that will continue to drain money out of me just to keep current, living in hope that I will one day get a semi decent paid job.


Until I get that job. I won't bother listening to Student pilots or those in a similar situation to me, like broken records, with there firm beleifs of employment straight out of flight school! (Would Ironic be the right word?:confused: )

[Whirlybird]

It is a form of insecurity when you have to resort to insults to get your point across and does nothing for your professional reputation.

Spot on, Whirlygig. :ok:

But since you're thinking of going commercial, I should point out to you that PF1's attitude is common in the industry, at least among instructors - the only bit of it I know well. I was licking my wounds a couple of days ago, having been bawled out by my supervising QHI...for no other reason that that he was feeling bad because we have few students over winter, he's not earning enough, and is jealous of me because I have another way of earning money. Oh, and I asked politely for more work. And took a few minutes longer than he would over a briefing with a keen trial lesson student. I think those were the sum of my crimes. The words "taking the bread out of his mouth" were mentioned somewhere in the tirade"...can't remember the details; it was a case of taking it out on me because I was the nearest person and he figured I wouldn't retaliate. And I didn't. Not worth it. I need him, and I have enough self control to ignore it all rather than add fuel to a raging fire.

But afterwards I phoned a friend - a f/w instructor with over 20 years experience. And she told me the flying world is full of people like that, people who know how to fly, but not to deal with people, because they've never had to learn. People who don't control their tempers, and don't see why they should. They're accepted because all they have to actually do to keep their jobs is fly well, and that they can do. It's all they've ever done, and they think it makes them important. But they wouldn't last 5 minutes in most industries or jobs.

I love to fly helicopters, but I've already decided - I hate so much about this industry!!!! I have to crawl and smile and accept insults and sexism, and drag myself up by my bootstraps...and for what? To be paid a pittance to allow people who can't fly to have the chance to try and kill me! Because I won't be one of those instructors who never lets the student really have control. And be resented for the fact that I can get on with people, and that I had the foresight and the brains to make sure I always had another way to earn a living in a precarious industry.

They're not all like that. I've met some fantastic people, both on and off PPRuNe. I've been given a huge amount of help, and made a lot of friends. But there are enough clones of PF1 (even if he thinks I'm a pro and gives me "permission" to post ;) ) and that QHI to make me seriously doubt my sanity in carrying on.

So, Whirlygig, and other wannabes, are you really really sure you want to do this?

Cheers,

Whirly (who can put up with any number of insults on PPRuNe, but not face to face for no reason, and is still fuming about it, and hence maybe not being as objective as usual
:( )

[Flying Lawyer]

It may well be that PPRUNE FAN#1 doesn't have the necessary skills (or slightest inclination) to join the Diplomatic Corps when he retires from flying - instructing at the 'John MacEnroe Charm School' seems a more likely option - but let's not lose track of what's happened here.

Bravo 99 suggested his 'friend' might apply for a job which seemed like a position for an experienced professional. Nothing ventured, nothing gained etc but, to me as a mere PPL, it seemed an unrealistic idea given the number of experienced and type-rated pilots looking for jobs.
All PF#1 said in his initial response was: "Are you seriously suggesting that your friend, with 350 hours TT would be qualified to take a position flying a Bell 430 off a boat? Do you think that someone who is rich enough to own a boat big enough to carry a helicopter would hire a pilot with so little experience? Do you think that there is an insurance company on the planet that would cover him? I find that astounding. I mean, I understand that you must like your friend and want to find him a job, but let's get serious...
Blunt certainly, but it hardly justified:

’take the piss all you like but do it on the planks page and leave proper pilots to try to help others.
‘By the way i notice that you are from the US (speaks for its self I think)
‘Professional Prick Fan #1
‘I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude.
‘twats like you.
‘you`re full of SH1TE!!
‘YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!
‘I have not seen anyone in favour of your opinions or statements on this forum - I suggest you go to the model helicopter worlds forum. (Not true – PF#1’s views often have support, even if his style is irritating at times.)
’You are the reason people on this forum have a disjointed view of US pilots. (IMHO, the top contributors include several Americans.)

Then, from someone who feels able to criticise what he sees as flaws in other people’s personalities, we had a classic - in CAPITALS in case we missed this most compelling argument:
THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE **** AND WANTS DECKING. DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS.
I’m still trying to work out what that proves apart from the fact that, if it’s true, the friend is a violent yob who can’t control his anger. (Probably better not to mention that in his CV.)
‘this guy in the US has a gob the size of his c*ntry
‘do not intend to respond to you silly whitisizams (sic) because if you think you are funny the rest of the industry does not. (Really?)
‘so write on brother but you cred is non existent’
‘this idiot p prune fan
‘knobs like that p prune chap
‘I am begining to wonder if I want to work with such a bunch of stuck up premodona,s. (sic)
‘clearly you have your heads so far up you bum
‘the way you lot look like you treat low time pilots i wish i would have invested my funds somewhere else not try to work with a bunch of complete Assholes
’o and by the way some one said this site was for professional pilots i have seen nothing on this site so far that comes any where near looking good, never mind looking professional.’ (He might find ‘Just Helicopters’ better suited to his debating style.)

Still, it’s a good debate – provided we just smile benignly at those who are unwilling or unable to come up with good arguments to shoot down their opponents’ bad points, and are forced to resort to moronic abuse and foul language.

[Steve76]

...and diving into the unpopular bomb crater on the battlefield of pointless arguements comes SHMEEE.....!

I have resisted but I think this is too good a blue to miss.

FOR THIS SUBJECT ONLY: I agree with PP1....(a little)
I was a fortunate copilot on a twin once and I had a bunch of super guys showing me IFR, Boat landings, foul WX offshore analysis and just generally how to think smart in a helo.

To do this all with 350hrs of mostly training flying is really asking for a negative experience. I do not know of one new IFR pilot fresh out of school who has ever been in cloud before. I certainly hadn't. So without the two crew environment I would never have learn't to plan, operate or behave safely IFR. This is a SPIFR machine...if you are thinking you can fly this by yourself with a BS inital IFR you are kidding.

I think PP1's comments have been blown out of porportion. A 430 is not a 206 and the complexity and system knowledge is 10 times that of a single. There is the little issue of extra weight as well...
Perhaps we should just take the comments without considering his previous post history.

PP1: congrats on that freakin huge post.....

[tecpilot]

@ whirlygig

"1. How you got from 150 to 1,000 hours
2. How you envisage young pilots will replace the older pilots (and I imagine you are of the older generation) who have to retire. The military does not have the throughput of pilots these days - so how do you expect the helicopter industry to continue?
3. What steps are you taking to replace yourself when you have to retire."

It's a market, a market allways on the run. If the market get short on pilots, he will take the necessary action. At first more freelance from mil and police guys, followed by eastern pilots in Europe (you know EU becomes wider) and if the market than runs out of pilots he will made the job so attractive that more newbies coming out and more mil and police pilots change their employer. That's a procedure no one of us could change.
Simple! -on the market could only survive the hardest. Companies who spend a lot of money in newbies or have not the right flexible pilot staff going the tricky way. And as seen in the actual situation, we have to much pilots, more than enough unexperienced pilots looking for a job, a regression in the business and heavy heavy increasing spare parts and insurance costs. I'm sorry to tell it, but that's the situation and if your FI doesn't tell you the right words about the market, go back and take his neck! I would like to give all newbies their chances, but we couldn't change the situation. It takes a lot to guide a newbie in a company, to build up experience in the described way in the last posts, it's hard and expensive and after 1000h he will change to an other company, which is today so bad in his eyes - bad for non hiring newbies.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Lots of good replies here, and I am quite enjoying this thread- as abusive (to me, what a surprise) as it sometimes is.

Okay, okay...it's Sunday morning, I'm feeling good and I'm about to go out for a lovely brunch. I'll admit that my cheap shot at Whirlybird was gratuitous. Although I have to say that I did not "give her permission" to post; she certainly has earned that on her own. But she's always so...so...humble! Ooooh, it's grating. She even admits to getting a right good scathing by her instructor and she took it! Me, I would have responded...let's just say "differently" but I'm sure you all would assume that. And so should she have, whether she "needs" him or not. So anyway, I apologize to the gracious Whirlybird, who took my "joke" in stride.

There's this dichotomy in our business. Helicopter pilots have to be aggressive- but not too aggressive. You cannot be a wishy-washy helicopter pilot. There will be times when a firm, decisive hand on the controls is what's needed.

For example, I once had a "relatively" inexperienced young friend. He was a very "conservative" pilot. His bank angles in turns was barely perceptible. We never saw him drop the nose aggressively on takeoff, and his approaches to our shore base were so slow that aircraft behind him on finals could pass him, land, cooldown and have their blades tied-down before this chap finally made it to the pad. Everyone who viewed his flying would describe him as "a good pilot." Conversely, people who view my flying would probably call me a hotdog. I am a dinosaur. Old school. I justify the way I fly by saying, "Hey, it's worked for me so far." And I'll be right...right up until the day I'm wrong.

One hot, windless summer day in the GOM, my friend eased off an oil platform in a 206B loaded to max gross and maybe just a smidgen beyond depending on how badly the guys lied about the weight of their toolboxes. Hey, that's just how it is. As he left the safety and comfort of his ground effect behind, he ventured out into OGE-land. But the aircraft did not have OGE capability (it barely had "hover IGE" capability). Now, at this point the pilot must do one of two things: either he must get through ETL and fly away, or he must enter autorotation and land. There is no choice.

My friend did neither. He sat there tentatively as the ship wobbled and settled. He pulled in the last bit of remaining power (there wasn't much more to pull), and it just settled faster. The poor JetRanger was now descending vertically at a high rate of speed. At the very last second, he popped the floats and smashed into the water so hard that it spread the skids, wrinkled the whole fuselage, broke the bubbles and greenhouses (from the fuselage wrenching). Then it lifted off the water, because he still had the pitch up under his arm. He put it back down and got fired.

Why? Because the Chief Pilot asked him to explain what he did wrong and how he would prevent it from happening again? My friend could not. He didn't think he did anything wrong.

Let's back up. When you come off an elevated helideck and you do not have the capability to hover, you're in a very precarious position. Unless you want to crash, you must get through ETL and fly away. OR, you must go down to the surface and land. For us, landing on the Gulf of Mexico is not an option unless it's an emergency. So the only real choice my friend had was to force (coax, convince, coerce...whatever) the ship to fly- pitch the nose down and get through ETL! If it meant using up some of that 100' of altitude, so be it. (We prefer not to do that, but hey- sometimes you have to.)

I say my friend was "relatively" inexperienced because although he had well over 1000 hours, it was all twin-engine (SH-3), multi-crew military time; he had no civilian time at all, and virtually no experience operating overloaded 206's from tiny oil platforms. I felt badly for him. My "conservative" friend didn't like to do things aggressively. And it bit him. And it cost him his job. Lucky it didn't kill him (and his pax).

Is there a point to all of this? Beats me. I use that story to illustrate just how wacky and complicated and confusing helicopter flying is. We teach newbies to be "conservative," and that's generally good because we equate "conservative" with "good." But in helicopters there's a time for conservative, and a time for aggressiveness. That is what takes time and seasoning and experience to learn. It does not come overnight. It does not come at the 160-hour level.

Finally, a word about my own career. I was lucky. I managed to get a non-flying job as a dispatcher/lineboy with a helicopter operator. In my spare time, I flew as P2 on charters where the copilot seat was empty. At the same time, I paid out of my own pocket for my ratings. It took seven years before I finally had enough time to earn an SIC slot in a two-pilot, multi-engine ship the company had. It was two more years until I made 206 PIC. From there, it lead to bigger and better things (insert big eyeroll here).

For you civilian low-timers, there is no easy path. There is no clearly-defined path. There is not even a repeatable path that worked for someone else. I have no solutions or even suggestions other than "if you want it badly enough, you'll find a way" (like Whirlybird, who I truly believe will never give up and unlike AJB, who I feel will). Do not hold that against me. (Kill the messenger?) And for those who indignantly feel that I have some heavy moral responsibility to ensure that my replacements are in the pipeline, well...direct your anger somewhere else, bucko. Nobody ever said that this was a good career. In fact, it is not.

[rotordk]

Ok, must admit a tear fell down my cheek......you've just regained my faith in human kind......well written, non abusive and stuff I agree 100% with.

[HeloTeacher]

PPF#1

Good on ya. I had decided to give up on the discussion until this post. I feel I should apologize to you for when I lapsed into personal comments aimed at you. Got emotional when I shouldn't have.

I still disagree with the assertion that a newly licenced pilot is unemployable. I think I've explained that enough above. Attitude, experience on the ground and with people, and realistic expectations are what's needed to operate safely.

Whirly.

I certainly did not state that someone should 'not' apply for a position that they are not qualified for, I said they should be careful. It has been my experience that too many very inexperienced pilots apply for these jobs, which is fine, but then follow it up with pressure tactics on the CP to explain their not getting hired. All this winds up doing, for the most part, is demonstrate a lack of maturity.

I too have applied for jobs without the advertised experience, but I also sent a cover letter with the resume to acknowledge this and explain why I was still applying, and what I was looking for and could provide to them as an employee.

tecpilot.

While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. I experienced the same back when I was weeding through resumes and doing interview flights.

Anyone who's future livelihood depends on getting helicopters in the air to make money needs to decide now how they are going to provide not only qualified pilots, but also engineers (AME's). When the problem becomes acute, it will be too late. We also, as those pilots and engineers, need to start giving a little more loyalty to the operators who do give the newby's a break. They are sacrificing a lot of time for the entire industry's benefit.

Steve76.

I agree with your experience, but another pitfall to be aware of is the 'copilot syndrome'. I have seen enough copilots who become all too comfortable with having someone else making the final decisions and have a lot of difficulty transitioning to the PIC role. I'm not talking PIC with another fully qualified guy(gal) in the other seat. I'm talking about noone, or worse, someone unqualified. Selfstarters won't have the problem, but some people do and I've even spent some time helping a friend of mine overcome it.


Part of what PPF#1 has been saying is that our job as a commercial pilot is more 'operations management' than 'helicopter flying'. All the people skills, leadership, resource utilization, networking, and other management skills are part of the mandatory skillset to be good at our jobs. These things are assuredly NOT taught in the flight school.

I am happy to hear any criticism as well, I have a thick skin, and I've my own mistakes along the way.

[paco]

And why not 200-hour pilots on the oil patch? The only reason it would not be a good idea right now is because of the standard of customer, or at least the expectations they have been given by the helicopter industry! It's our fault that they expect people to take off in thick fog, or carry people at the end of a longline or jump out of a helicopter at 20 feet because there is nowhere to land. And now we have "consultants" advising customers that pilots need 2000 hours to transport people from lease to lease? Give me a break!

phil

[tecpilot]

Hello Helo Teacher,

"While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. "

I would partly agree to you. Partly on the special tasks it's hard to find a "specialist". The reason ist that the special ops are limited and therefore is also only a limited group of pilots available, for example antartic ops, ops from cruising ships, NVG, TP's or FTE's or very long line ops on heavy twins. The personal fluctuation and the number of employees in such companies is small. Additionally needs for specialists starts also with changes in market and changes in regulations and equipment. Especially in such areas it's really expensive in time and money to train the pilots.

But on the other side we have in Europe a lot of unemployed experienced pilots coming from the "normal" airwork, experienced in agriculture, sling load, Pax, and the whole bunch. They are ready to fly, because in such fields are not so much differencies between operators. They have the needed ratings and hours on type. The "unemployment" reason is the regression in the business, the increasing numbers of bankruptcies or the sales of helicopters in the executive branch. That's also the "market"! Some times special areas like off-shore or agriculture are going well and sometimes they are turning down. At the moment agriculture or logging ops in europe are for some reasons on a very strong nose dive. In the last years they had really enough to do. Therefore we have very experienced 5000-10,000flighthours crop dusters unemployed, but they have no twins, night or IR experience at the moment required by some EMS operators. Some years ago it wasn't worth a penny if your are fluent in russian or other eastern languages. At the moment some eastern operators and their western supplier looking hardly for western twin qualified and experienced FI to train their pilots and to supervise them. Only some examples of the changing "market laws"

[Bravo 99]

In responce to silsoesid only
all other stuff further down this page I am not interested in. you have said your bit I have said mine you are just blowing used air.

Right as it cards on deck
I AJB
23 years fires service
all details as past post
with additional as follows also owned construction company employing 23 staff untill divorse (see further down)
injured on duty 1999 by my driver rolling our appliance on route to a shout broke my back and spent a long time sorting this out. had be trying to get my commercials for years.
then the crash. then Life changed, suffer or have an op and be destined for the wheel chair. so didnt have op
In all this cought wifee in bed with another bloke
tried to sort out life divorce ensued

moral then on the floor confidence again on the floor
it was down or up
I chose up
strugged for 6 months got my class one back dispite CAA medical boys saying you daft.
enrolled on atlp ground school at oxford passed 5 out of 5 first batch 6 out of 8 second with final two last time out
cpl next got that. IR next got that
F I Next just finishing now
Rated on 22 206 355
confidance just starting to move forward moral just moving forward
so here were are today that is me
Bravo 99 was and is me it was not my intention to lie blind or baffle. if you look at all my input to sites todate (with the exception from friday to tonight) I have put forward information that I felt I had knowledge of and would be of assistance to the other people that have asked for that information.
I used a cover when I put my cv out purely becouse I did not know what the response would be. and seeing what it was can you blame me.
I put forward as simple statement without relating to my cred etc to find out about something that I did not know about but did not expect in the slightest to be considered for but was hoping that someone would pick up my details..
the abuse then started. and I then, having been backed into a corner tried to open up by putting myself forward but all this site did then was to push me further down into the pile of crap that you all seem intent on spending your time in.
I stated then an still do I am inexperienced. i have spent a considerable amount of time laying on my back not knowing if i would walk again so do you really think i would try for the slightest to end up back there by putting myslef or others at risk.
I also state that with guidance from a good mentor i could be moulded into a top pilot something that I and many along side me want to do. the attitude of some people though gives me sever doughts
the high hour pilots ( not all I hasten to add) on this forum seem intent on flexing there so called wealth of knowledge to run down and abuse new coming pilots to the piont on abuse
I have in the last 2 months having been at PAS for 5 months come out back into the civil world flown 2 Public transport ops.
1 as p2 the other as dress baggage with bars on. have seen full IFR flight being carried out with the pilot not
1) being IR rated
2) not flying quidrangle
3) not talking to any body on the rt
4) above the freezing level
5)no checks being carried out before or in flight
what I am as a low time pilot supposed to think when you see this. Of the so called high time pilots commercially experdicious is one thing this is going way beyond that though.

I have been open I did and do not intend to to lie but I did to try to allow me to come forward. but i do not intend to be abused in the way this site keeps trying.
I can only presume that you are the Modulator or his best mate. and I intend to clarify my legal standing with regard to release of information on the net.

for the rest of the low time pilots we have a hard and long way to go but we will survive


on closing
Moral 0
cred well I did not have any before so still 0
determination 100%
prune site cred -100%
thanks to over pitched and others for there support
John eacott respect Bomber arris respect

so you have 4 pages to fill be for the forum gets moved so fill your boots boys say what you want

Over to you

AJB watching brief only

[rotordk]

paco, easy question....ask the oilworkers if they would like to fly with a 200 hour captain on the north sea on Dec 24 in shyte weather with some farfetched alternates and everything down to minima.
"They" are the real customers, so shouldn't they be heard ?

( note: for this scenario JAR rules have been disregarded )

[Whirlybird]

PF1,
Always humble? No, just honest...with me what you see is what you get. But if you find my posts or my attitude grating, I don't mind in the least...hmmm, you mean I can get at you just by being myself, how.....amazingly simple. :) Yes, I know you would have responded...differently. You'd have responded first, and thought afterwards. Me, I think first. They call it maturity I believe. I decided it wasn't worth it; I'd get more of what I wanted by being quiet and letting this idiot sound off if he wanted to, infuriating though it is. Of course, if he develops a taste for playing big bully that might change...and I can be VERY aggressive, with people and helicopters, if and when it's required. But when I decide, not when I'm goaded into it. Shocks people too, since it's a side of me they don't see very often. I'm just in it for Number One you see. I might get even with him some day too..or I might not bother since he's not worth it and grudges are hard work. Luckily I know he's computer-illiterate and won't be reading this...he can't do anything at all but fly helicopters. Anyway, I accept your apology...with amazement - jeez, you must be feeling good!!!!

Paco,
There are no 200 hour pilots on the North Sea because they don't need us. It's called supply and demand. Back before 9/11 there were; now they can get people with more hours, so they do. It's a tough old world out there. :{

[rotordk]

Whirlybird, check out the latest adverts in flightinternational......
9/11 didn't create a downturn in flying in the northsea, actually the oil went up a buck or ten. Just my humble thoughts ...

[Giovanni Cento Nove]

Bravo 99,

I assume you are from the UK. Could you please edit your post so that those of us who's first language is not English can read it. As it is at present I cannot understand it.

Grazie - Ciao!

[Bronx]

Bravo 99
Sorry to hear you've had problems in your life, a lot of us have.
But you started the abuse AND kept it going.

Funny how you've never seen any professionalism on this forum which most people agree is the best helicopter forum in the world and, after 5 months with PAS and 2 months in the "civil world", you're already talking about the lack of professionalism you've seen.
Other beginners and new low time professionals seem to find the "so called" wealth of knowledge and opinions of "so called" high time pilots on this forum very helpful. If you don't, maybe you should look to yourself.

[Bravo 99]

I will piont out that PAS training was with the best people I have ever been with. It was coming back into the civil world where I consider things are not right.
if I can when I get to the level of expertice and skill and profesionalizam shown to me by all the personel at PAS I would hope that I can and will forward it onto new comers then.
I would like this to be clear and this is not trying to start further on slought of fighting or abuse just clearing a point that may seem loose
and sorry I cannot translate previous
AJB

[sycamore]

B99,I`ve refrained from making any comments to your previous inputs on the thread,as it seemed as though you were "trolling",and your profile suggested to me that there appeared some inconsistencies in your experience,and your replies to other PPruners.
As you have found, it is that people respond at face-value to what you say, and any cover-up will be unmasked, eventually.
It pays to be honest; the variety of replies you get may not be what you want to hear, but, on Rotorheads you generally get straightforward answers, from guys/gals who are living and working their lives as helo operators, and have usually come up the hard way.

Personally, I came from the Military,so you could say it was all fun`n games, sometimes very dangerous games, so I cannot relate my experience to theirs, but have enjoyed and been enlightened by the way civilian operators have to "operate",for the "customer".

PPF*1 has very strong views, and gives it to you in the same manner; others are a lot less so; however as you have explained your circumstances, it is apparent you have a strong will to overcome personal trials and tribulations to achieve your goal. I would like to wish you all the very best,and hope you can show your students such fortitude.

Syc.... :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Well said Bronx

Bravo99,

I know your story and like I said before, we have met

You have been found out to be a liar, which is why I think you now want to give me some abuse, or at least a long story.
If you kept to being honest, people would give you the respect you deserved. However, you have now lost it. (You have also lost the plot I feel)

Oh! by the way, telling tales out of class shows your worth.

You earlier stated you had a CRM qualification and list the faults of your recent trips.

So why didn't you say something? Surely isn't that what CRM is all about? The experience level doesn't count if you think lives or safety are at stake.

Or is that another Bravo 99 ism?

I do wish you well and if you remember just one thing from all of this, let it be;
If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!
:ok:

Before you go off at me again, just realise, all I did was catch you out for being dishonest.

SS

[Steve76]

So who's for a beer and a scuffle at HAI then eh!?
:ok:

[Bronx]

I've been wondering if Bravo 99 is the same Walter Mitty guy who conned a Police ASU into believing he was a professional pilot.
I can't find the thread just now but it was on the forum some time last year.

[autosync]

I think now is a good time to address a serious issue in commercial aviation,

These days anybody who is of semi decent physical health can go and pass a medical, enroll in a flight school, pay the money, breeze through all the exams and go and get a commercial certificate, however there are quite a fair few, in my observation that are not mentally stable to be trusted with an aircraft with passengers or even have the personal skills to work alongside others.

In fact it is easy to spot the ones with the loose screws, nearly anybody who wants to fly in Europe needs their head examined, its not right to have to pay such amounts to get qualified in the industry, its just plane crazy.
Commercial pilots will soon be seen as a joke if this trend continues.

Something should be changed in the screening process

[SilsoeSid]

A very interesting point Bronx.

I know the story is true, but can't work out whether the timeline works, mmmm. Certainly got me thinking on that one.

Has anyone else noticed that Bravo99 (aka AJB) has deleted his posts prior to being found out?

Now thats integrity! Would you like to employ someone like that? :ugh:

I certainly would not like to work with someone like that. :uhoh:

"Of course I did the Check A.....I've signed for it haven't I"

"Yes I checked the fuel.......sorry I lied"

etc etc

Bronx,

Heres the thread you are after

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51623&highlight=walter+mitty

Basically; (cut & paste)

This guy got to know some pilots at either West or East Midlands ASU. Tells them he's an ATPL(A) and (H) with loads of airlines hours with BA, loads of corporate heli hours, no end of type ratings incl the EC135. Explains that he's had enough of the airlines, done what's worth doing and doesn't mind taking a big drop in salary because he wants a change and loves helicopters.He then applies for a job and puts in a very impressive CV. If he hasn't done it, it's not worth doing. The ASU backs him, start off giving him some obs flights, then give him 5 hours Police Ops line training in the 135 free of charge. He shines at the interview and gets the job. Then they find out everything he's said is all total bxxxxxxs. He's a PPL, and only for two years at that.
He gets arrested and confesses everything. Not surprisingly, he ends up in court for fraud.
But, surprise surprise, he gets off!!

WARNING - Bravo99 (akaAJB) has 30 mins on an Explorer !!!

Lied about his 4500hrs total

Admitted to putting out a false CV

And as I know this guy, can talk a good talk

This is spooky stuff

[Bronx]

Thanks for finding the thread - well worth reading again. :D

Let's hope Bravo99 is just a harmless Walty Mitty type.
If he's truly got a professional licence that'd be real scary. :eek:

[tecpilot]

hi guys,

hope you will enjoy the new week :ouch:

The discussions about liars, false CV's, dangerous attitude and overreaching self-confidence remembers me on the thread Deadly stupid stunt (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=79214&perpage=15&highlight=germany%20bridge%20helicopter&pagenumber=1) . You know the helicopter crossed a bridge under the construction, the pilot sank the ship, the doc drowned. There was a space between construction and water from 5 m to fly the helo through, what means on a BO 105 to have round about 1m safety space! :yuk: :sad: :\

Now it's clear, this crazy ass...le lied in his CV and added 1000h in criminal manner (with stolen army forms, duly completed by his home-PC) to his round about 1200 all in once hours to fulfill the requirements of the EMS operator. Sad to say he was fired immediately some months ago from an other operator (you have 30' to pack you belongings and leave the company ground) after the former CP (well done) saw from his hotel window a BO 105 doing really impressive acrobatics with PAX on a commercial flight!!! I would like to say, we don't need pilots like this in the business and not as colleagues. Honesty must be the first column in our business and any colleague and any Pax must be able to trust a pilot especially on single pilot ops. **** happens but honesty is important.

Warning!
Hope, most of you understand that the described ass..le is now professionally dead (means no company in middle europe would give him a cup of coffee free), unfortunately some years and a drowned doc to late, but have heard he is now stepping to US to try his luck in the land of the braves and ...! Allways wearing a good FAA license.

[Bravo 99]

Silsoesid
I have not lied about a false cv it is full and correct and I can prove it
the only time I make a mistake of cover and this was to try to avoid the situation that know unsues. was the 4500 late on in the discusions in one thread and I have explained why
but as you have clear access to all my details and are watching my every move it is pointless continueing on this site.
I made one mistake (or should I say two) one in trying to put my details for a job on a site for a post I knew i could not get under an cover of a friend)
2 in believing that if you try to be honest

my credentials are full and aqurate you have a ball in talking about what you think you know and fill your boots.
I made one mistake but boy it has opened my eyes.

I have cleared my details becouse I do not believe that there is any point of putting my imput onto a site like this all I have stated with the exception of the discusion over the weekend was with knowledge of the subject and is true and acurate.
And yes I am pleased that you think that you know me I have meet in the last 14 months both very interesting people and people I would not trust with my grandma,s cat. I am not going to insult you but well I have my own opinion.

[SilsoeSid]

Bravo 99,

Earlier, (before you deleted all your posts), you said you made a false CV to see how much info you could get.

The access I have to your details are purely from your profile and its up to you what is in there. (No Big Brother I'm afraid)

Quote,
"I have cleared my details becouse I do not believe that there is any point of putting my imput onto a site like this..."
Unquote.

Thanks for doing that, obviously trying to cover your tracks as best you can, shame that the people who haven't been following this over the weekend will miss out on this threads full story.
If you don't like this site, that is up to you, no-one has forced you here.

You threw down the gauntlet by saying, "It would be interesting if you would reveal to all your details as you clearly are keen on reveiling every one elses".
I Suggest you click on the button that says Profile on the top of this post.

Finally, I'm sure your Grandmas cat could scurry away better than you are able. :ok:

[paco]

I was referring to the oil patch in Canada - sorry I should have made that more specific - naturally, offshore is more specialised, as was the job on the original post.

I was just making the point that everyone seems to be hung up on hours. While naturally important, they are not necessarily high on the list when I hire somebody.

If I get into a taxi, I do not expect to question the driver's qualifications, or tell them how to do their job, and neither do I expect people to do the same to me if I have been tested and approved by the relevant authorities and my company.

Phil

[autosync]

All crap aside, lets get back to the hour issue, I don't buy the fact that people will think that an Instructor who has bashed circuits for 1000's of hours in an R22 is more capable of flying a large fully automated helicopter to land on a Helideck or carrying out other commercial operations.

There are quite a fair few budget airline pilots who went straight in with 250 hours now flying 737's and 757's

In the days of sponsership, trainees would finish with 135 hours in a piston, get instrument rated in a 206 and go straight in to get type rated on a multi engined Super Puma, obviously with an experienced training captain.

As far as I know there were never any problems with that practice.
They would be in the exact same boat as somebody going in there who has 2000 hours on a turbine, with no experience of offshore operations

Of course their is no substitute for experience but
You cannot tell me that hours are the be all and end all, sounds like a protectionist racket going on, old timers looking out for old timers!

[Nigd3]

Best thread Ive seen on here for ages.

I am a low hours pilot and at this moment, I for one would not like to given the responsibilty of keeping safe pax, a highly expensive, complex machine and of course me.
The keeping safe pax and me speaks for itself but I'm sure even with my limited experience I could lift a twin into the air (after a quick skip through the AFM of course;) ) fly from A to B and put it down in a nice large landing site, clear of lots of obstructions and unusual approaches.
IMHO the issue of experience comes into play a lot when the **** hits the fan, either self induced or the machine lets you down, and knowing what the hell to do without your mind becoming overloaded and then having the skill to do it. Of course a good attitude and training count loads so that you dont get into those situations, but if you do manage to get to 10000 hours then somewhere along the line some buttock clenching moment must have happened at some stage.
A simple Robbie with simple systems has only a limited amount of things to go wrong and hence a limited amount of corrective actions and equipment to monitor. Also most people flying them will not be doing complex or highly skilled types of flying. Put them into a systems heavy twin with fare paying, pressure applying pax, a bucketful of calculations, unusual take-off and landing procedures, quadruple the emergency drills and systems monitoring that need to be known, plus probably 10 other factors I haven't written and then there is an accident waiting to happen.
I believe that the necessary instinctive actions required to fly the complex machines safely can only be accumulated over time but with good training and attitude in there as well.
As for PPF#1, I enjoy his postings most of the time and have learned to appreciate the "brutal honesty" of his posts, even if it is close to the bone on occasion. It certainly livens up the thread.

[Bronx]

..... obviously with an experienced training captain. Yeah, sure, Autosync.
If the 430 job that got WalterMitty99 in such a tizz had been for a second pilot in a 2 crew op he would have gotten different answers.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Bronx cheered:If the 430 job that got WalterMitty99 in such a tizz had been for a second pilot in a 2 crew op he would have gotten different answers.At this point I have to rise to Bravo 99's defense...sort of. See, while "most of us" (this being a board for professional, working helo pilots) knew that the 430-on-a-boat gig was a single-pilot job, I don't believe Bravo 99/AJB did. I think he honestly thought that it was a two-crew situation in which he might snag the co-joe seat. And for that, I cannot blame him for trying. For that, he'd be qualified.

But he a) failed to make that clear in his original somewhat-garbled post, and b) got quite indignant and defensive (offensive?) at the resulting confusion when WWIII broke out.

A whole bunch of words could have been saved if, when he read my reply to his post, he'd simply said, "Oh, sorry old boy, I assumed there would be a P2 position open." Or, in his case, words to that effect.

[SilsoeSid]

B99,

PLEASE stop deleting, and now editing your posts. It only has the effect of making you look silly and ruins what is a very good thread for everyone else.
:ok:

SS

And now I have just seen that you have cleared your profile, well done.

Agreed PPF#1, but it wouldn't have been so much fun :)

[autosync]

Nigd3

I agree with you to a point, I have no doubt that you would be able to pick up a 430 and land it safely, and yes given hours and experience on type you could develop the knowledge to become more proficient, at flying that machine, however you will not get the opportunity to get that experience because people are now saying you need (about 2000 hours flying?)

My point is flying around a pattern or doing pipeline patrol for 2000 hours in a piston engine does not neccesaraly give you the airmanship or commercial decision making skills to operate a large tin arsed monster.
When large operaters are in Dire need of pilots they will take on anybody to fly left seat, this just shows that CO JO jobs advertised as 3/4000 hours required are a convenience factor for high time pilots and now insurance companies are starting to believe it.

Now if/when the next round of Helicopter jobs start popping up and operaters are in dire need of pilots they won't be allowed take them for insurance reasons.

How do you feel knowing that that you probably have more time in the air then then the guy flying your 737?
Does it bother you that much? Or are you content that he is well trained and is knowledgable in the systems he is using to complete the job.

[Chairmanofthebored]

you new pilots should get a grip and try finding a job in the bush in Africa or somewhere. why the hell don't you approach the issue with a bit of realism? focus on the pistons or the light turbine work. forget about twins and corperate work and suck it up like the rest of us and do some hard years. you might even learn something. nobody with half a brain is going to had over a 2 million dollar aircraft to someone who hasn't got a clue about flying. don't bother arguing about it. us out here with +500hrs know because we were ****wits when we were there.
:hmm:

[Nigd3]

Autosync

I have to agree with you to a point but we are talking different ops here, 1 pilot twin engine heli and 2 pilot multi engine fixed wing.
If (for some obscure reason) I was told that the pilot of a 737 I was due to board, was going to be the only pilot on board and he was a brand new Oxford, or any other flying school, CPL with 300 ish hours and a 737 rating, I would refuse to get on the aircraft. That is unless I had a crystal ball that told me every system was going to work as it should, he wouldn't cock up his approach or that he wouldn't overload due to him having to concentrate on systems or procedures that were still relatively new to him whilst ATC were giving him unusual demands. Sorry, way too big a risk.
If he had the security of an experienced training captain next to him then fine. Of course it will not stop all eventualities and accidents but its sure one hell of a safety net.
All I'm trying to say, is that whilst new-ish pilots are still cutting their teeth learning to fly and airmanship, to introduce the complexities of managing systems and other factors seems to me a bad idea.

[ratherboutside]

I have read this forum off and on for years now and after seeing this debate I just had to get a login name and give my two cents worth.

A little quick history on me. I have been flying commercially now for 3 years. I am just under 2000 hours. my first 1000 was instructing in the R22 and then I got about 50 hours in the jetranger and now the rest in the AS-350

Reading all of your posts really made me think back to my first 1000 hours. Mostly instructing or doing the odd photo flight or charter. I then had to decide if I felt that time was necessary in establishing my skills as a pilot or if I could have just gone strait into a larger aircraft and a more complex work environment at 200 or 300 hours

We all know that if we sit down for long enough and study the POH for just about any helicopter, we will eventually memorize the numbers and learn the procedures. If we have the basic flying skills most of us have after the first 100 hours, there is no reason, aside from getting it started maybe, that we can't pick it up and fly it.

Like many of you have already said, aside from having a few more buttons or switches, the bigger helicopter are easier to fly. Expecially when compared to the R22, which is likely one of the hardest to fly and most underpowered helicopters out there.

That said, I believe there are a lot of 200 or 300 hour pilots out there that are perfectly capable of flying the bigger machines. There also seems to be operators out there hiring people at that level to fly them.

What I don't agree with is the experience these pilots have (or don't have) when they are put into a position flying more technical jobs with more complex machines. There are a lot more factors involved than just memorizing the POH.

I hardly knew a thing at 300 hours and bairly do now. No matter how much reading I had done, I couldn't identify vibrations when something was going wrong.... Never felt a power loss because of fouled spark plugs or bad gas.... the adreniline rush the first time you heard your blade tape coming off..... Then there's the meteorological factors such as extreme turbulence, mountain flying, low visibility..... Don't forget about the Customer lying about their weight, screaming in your ear or worse yet, puking in your lap. The list goes on and on...

These are all things that only come with time and most of them need to be experienced before you are flying a 2 million dollar machine with 5 other passengers lives to worry about.

There is a reason most insurance companies as well as operators require 1000 hours to get a job. Yea, a lot of us might be ready at 500 hours or maybe even less but I feel it takes most people closer to 1000 before they start to develop the skills and decision making necessary to become a safe and professional helicopter pilot. The learning never ends either.

For you newbies out there: Hang in there. It takes a lot of time and money but if you have the desire and a little skill, you will succeed. Aside from a few sour apples, this industry really is a lot of fun. We actually get paid to fly around the world and look at an everchanging view of georgeous scenery. Get an office job if you want a lot of money but don't complain when your only view is a cubicle wall.

Well, enough rambling on for me. At least for now. I hope my perspective helps.


Ratherboutside

[autosync]

Good reply's

But what I am saying is that flying a multi crew, multi engine commercial operation is completely different then flying a single pilot, single piston engine around a circuit.

You say you felt a Rush when you heard an abrasion strip come off, and you probably safely continued the flight, or safely landed, but a lot of 2000 hour pilots will never have had that feeling, a lot of 10,000 hour pilots may never have had to deal with a real life engine failure.

Everyday hundreds of "low" hour pilots, military pilots around the world get thrown into multi crew/engine environments.
And I assume most manage to efficiently get from A to B and land O.K, and over time become very proficient on type.

Why has the civilian world upped the bar so much?
Did it not work in the past, or is it just that the current climate allows the high hour guys to look out for they other high hour guys?

And as for flying in Europe, your right, it should be avoided at all costs, the fun of flying is just not there, these super tight restrictions make it hard to get any feeling of joy from the job.
Everybody should be given the opportunity to fly in the bush, its what its all about!

[StevieTerrier]

Speaking about hours vs experience.. one of my colleagues is currently on a CPL residential course. He told me today that one of the other students told him that he has never flown as PIC in controlled airspace, and was asking him how difficult it was!

And thinking about it, can anybody think of a reason why it wouldn't be possible to do all the flying for your CPL without ever needing to? A bit like not having to prove you can drive on a motorway before you get your driving licence, maybe?

Sounds crazy, but...

[Robbo Jock]

Reading all this, I keep thinking about the Apache pilot a few months back that landed when caught out in fog: "I've only got eighty hours in the air" he was quoted as saying. How complex is an Apache ? The military obviously thought his eighty hours good enough to let him loose.

[Hummingfrog]

There is one big difference between a military and a civilian low houred pilot. The military pilot has been through an exhaustive selection procedure followed by intensive training before he is let out by himself on a routine task.

There were 16 pilots on my initial jet course and only 8 survived to reach operational flying. I was a combat ready helicopter pilot after about 700hrs (Chipmunk, JP5A, Whirlwind and Wessex 2) but still limited to being No 2 to a more experienced leader or participating, as a singleton, in the more simple tasks such as troop embark/disembark training.

The 80hrs quoted by the Apache pilot was in the Apache not a total.

I learnt alot in my first tour, made mistakes, explored the potential of the Wessex - we had about 5hrs of continuation training every month all without passengers!!

I feel for civilian pilots beginning their career but it is a hard world out there and it must be difficult for an employer to entrust his business to a low houred pilot unless he is using 2 crew helicopters.

However if you don't try you won't know what it is like to get paid for doing something that is so challenging, rewardable and enjoyable :D

HF

[Whirlybird]

Stevie,

I know someone who got a CPL, but had never been through a MATZ. He was from Oz or NZ, then did his CPL in the UK, and was supposed to go through a MATZ during the course, but never did. No big deal, except it was totally new to him, and he sounded like he wouldn't be sure what to do.

[FerociousFish]

ChairmanoftheBoard,
Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the eason you did it hard was because you come off as being an arrogant son of a bitch! Sh#t! You sound like my grandfather..."back when I was a boy I had to walk 20kms to school..." Don't dare knock someone for having a go. I'd be willing to bet money that if a company employed you and the newbie at the same time, you'd be sacked first for your attitude alone.

[vorticey]

just curious, how many hours out of your 700, would have been in comand?

>"The military pilot has been through an exhaustive selection procedure followed by intensive training before he is let out by himself on a routine task."

civilian pilots do the intensive training before knowing that they will be weeded out by a companies exhaustive selection proceses. sort of ass about realy. but exploring the potential of the aircraft is part of the leaning curve which happends in the first couple hundred hours.
what would your average day (not everything you might get to do) of flying incorporate in the army? my impression of the army would be flying from a to b in formation and landing in a paddock that will occomodate a large amount of aircraft, is this a good assumption? a tour would be damn side harder but tours arnt normal. just curious:ok:

[Hummingfrog]

Hi Vorticey

I won't take offence that you thought I was in the Army!! I am ex RAF and of the 700ish hrs about 60hr where Capt in the Chipmunk (at University) 40hr in the JP5A (basic jet trainer) 25hr in the Whirlwind 10 (a rotary Chipmunk!!) and 120hr In the Wessex 2.

During my 1st tour in Germany there was no such thing as a normal day. The tasking varied from singleton Stage 1 drills training the Army on the basics of getting in/out of the helicopter by hover jump roping etc to 18 ship Squadron assaults on bridges.

Further tours were on SAR which varied from the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster to topless girls on inflatable toys!!

I always found it mystifying that the Army used different maps to the RAF. Often when doing a night sun insertion we called for the light, carried by the Army Scout helicopter, to be switched on to find it illuminating a different field to the one we were aiming for!!!:D

HF

[Thomas coupling]

:E

Went solo in my 1st helo after .5hrs......work that one out?

Christ there is some collateral damage here:


B99 lost his engine around page 4. Crashed and burned. Though the registration on the wreckage was not the same as that seen on the ship prior to being hit :8

PF#1 lost his hydraulics, couldn't control his ship, caught fire and had to return to base around about page 5. :p

Chairmanoftheboard came out of the sun and shot up a few stragglers - page 7. :ok:

SS: slipped and fell on his trigger - lead everywhere :\

Whirlybird made the tea. :uhoh:

RIP: All those lost in the:
battle of the Rotorheads. 1945 - 2004
(GMT) :ouch:


PS: If I erase my profile, can I get a second crack at my lifes ambitions too?

[Whirlygig]

TC - that's the funniest thing on this thread ;)

Although there are always casualties in war and this battle may now be over, I'm sure that there are others who live to fight another day :ok:

Cheers

Whirlygig

[SilsoeSid]

TC

I'm still here, just lying up in an OP on the hill! :cool:

Unfortunately, with all B99 s deletions and edits, it turned into a becalmed thread for me. :(

Plea to all,

Please don't turn this into an inter service slanging match. :{

SS

[vorticey]

only the army has the helicopters in australia.
255 hours comand out of 700 is not much, they make you sit there for a long time before letting you out to play, dont they. after 445hrs duel i could nealy be combat ready myself,although some would have been acting in comand i spose. i only have 890hrs which 835 is command (much smaller helicopters though).

robbo jock why wouldnt the appache pilot be capable, he had more hours on type than i needed to get my licence! not that getting caught in fog is type related :ok:

[Robbo Jock]

Vorticey et al

The Apache pilot was quoted as saying he had 80 hours "in the air", not "on type". It just struck me as bizarre that he'd be let loose on an Apache with that number of hours when posters on this thread have said people with far more hours shouldn't be allowed anywhere near far less complex aircraft.

I'm only jealous 'cos I'd like one of those big macho helmets with the monocles but I'd look bl##dy stupid wearing it in the R22 !