AAC Apaches ready to go - nearly

[Navaleye]

From the thunderer - what a shambles:

AFTER a decade of design problems and delays, and at a cost of more than £4 billion, just four of the British Army’s 67 Apache attack helicopters will be ready for full-time operations this summer.

However, it seems unlikely that the Ministry of Defence will want to risk such a small force in any hostile environment.

The arrival of the Apache, the most formidable weapon system ever flown by the Army Air Corps, will transform the Army’s whole doctrine on manoeuvre warfare, according to Brigadier Richard Folkes, Director of Army Aviation.

By the summer an operational unit consisting of four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters will be merged into 16 Air Assault Brigade — Britain’s answer, on a much smaller scale, to the American 101st “Screaming Eagles” Division. Next year a full battle group of 16 Apaches and eight Lynxes will be operational, but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s.

Concern about using the first four Apaches in anything but a benign environment was underlined by the experience of the Americans in the war in Iraq. In its first mission of the war, the US 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment, with more than 30 Apaches, was forced to retreat after flying into a hail of Iraqi small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. One Apache was shot down. Even though the other Apaches, all of which were hit, returned safely to base, the operation was a blow to the reputation of a mighty war machine that was sent to Iraq to destroy Iraqi tanks.

However, Brigadier Folkes said at the Army Air Corps headquarters at Middle Wallop, Hampshire, that it was tactics, not the helicopter, that were at fault. Apaches, he said, should not operate in isolation but as part of an overall land-manoeuvre strategy in which all elements, including troops and armour, should be involved in the same mission. Subsequently in the Iraq war, US Apaches played a leading part in destroying armour.

The first British Apache pilots, from 656 Squadron 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, are now training at a new centre at Middle Wallop which includes two giant simulators for practising attack helicopter war missions.

The training programme for 168 pilots, as well as ground crew and maintenance staff, is costing £1.1 billion under a Private Finance Initiative scheme involving a company called Aviation Training International. The 67 GKN-Westland Apaches, with advanced Longbow radar, a huge array of weapons and support programmes, are costing £3 billion.

Although the simulators are acknowledged as world-beating training facilities, they were the main cause of the delay in the programme. The MoD ordered them late and because the software proved to be more challenging than had been expected, there was a delay of 18 months.

There were also technical problems with the helicopter itself. In a report last October, the National Audit Office revealed that debris from the powerful CRV7 rockets and Hellfire anti-tank missiles was flying back into the rear stabiliser and causing damage. There were also communications problems with linking pilots to ground commander

[serf]

And your point is ?

[Navaleye]

The point is this. Defence procurement in this country has now degenerated to a level on a par with a Whitehall farce. We have aircraft without wings, attack helos without pilots, we have been building submarines to an unfinished design. We spend a year figuring out how to chop 10,000 tons off our future carriers, only to revert to the original design. The last Shar was delivered in 1999. So what do we do? Take them out of service 5 years later having invested £ms in them. We tell the world that what we really need is strike aircraft not fighters, then (most likely) cancel tranche 3 of Eurofigher which delivers this capability. The list goes on and on. I'm just glad to be out uniform now.

[flygunz]

Navaleye
This is not new information so I'm not sure where you have been for the last couple of years! If you balance the short delay in the Apache programme to the long and costly delays in other programmes such as the Typhoon, Astute type submarine, Nimrod Mk 4 and C130J then in reality, the Apache PFI through Westlands/Boeing and Aviation Training International, has been a success.

The accuracy of your post is well wide of the goalposts and I can assure you that as far as Army Apache training is concerned, the future is looking good for Army Aviation in the world of Air/Land Manoeuvre.
:ok:

[Bill O'Average]

Flygunz, you must have read my mind.:ok:

All seems well at the death Star.....so I've been informed.;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

An extremely short story......by all accounts:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[flygunz]

The Death Star... in 1986 during a lengthy clean up and resupply in the Falklands, my crewman and I named the soon to be completed Mount Pleasant Airport the 'Death Star' as it seemed to suck the old Scout (God bless 'er) in for refuels from any direction, but particulary heading West against the prevailing!
We reckoned it was a tractor beam of some sort and 14 degrees of pitch was no match for the power of MPA!!

But Bill if you are referring to the Borg cube located in the delta quadrant, normally called Middle Wallop, then according to my sources most of the time all is well and training continues.
As for me, a humble civvie just keeping in touche.....

Chris Robin, stay off this post now......tiger!

[Bill O'Average]

ABIW. Please nob off. Thanks. ;)
Trying to keep this on thread. Unless of course you have some useful, valuable input. But I doubt it. :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh deary me "wrinkled willy" was that a bite then :ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Bill O'Average]

No, dullard. It was an attempt to be grown up.
Now go and rearrange some horror boxes.


Thrush.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

That will be a yes then:ok: .......... far toooo easy:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[MightyGem]

Navaleye, suggest you read this article (http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/magazine/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=0104&file=0104apache.htm) from the January edition of Rotor and Wing for a report on the Apache in Iraq, and this one (http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=1103&file=1103heroism_award.htm)
for Afghanistan.

[ChristopherRobin]

someone mention me?

[AllTrimDoubt]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but in my experience (and I'm NOT aiming at the vast majority of Army NCO aircrew here - most of whom are professional and worthy) the Army's approach to aviation as defined by their "people" in charge is as realistic as letting "Cousin George" loose with the damn Apache!

Sorry guys - truth hurts!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MG,
Both articles made very interesting reading but I could not find any referance to our Apache's.....................was this a journ'o typo?:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[MightyGem]

Para 12 of the first article. Almost as informed as you! :)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MG,
Sorry, should have been more specific, I meant i couldn't see any ref to our Gunships seeing any action in either of the articles and wondered if that was a typo........or have I missed something again:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SirToppamHat]

I am not trying to score points here, honestly, but am just curious.

A few yrs ago I was discussing the future of ship-borne aviation with an RN chap and the Apache issue was raised. Putting these on board, say, HMS Ocean would seem to provide a significant littoral CAS capabilty that we thought would be useful for the RM ... the suggestion being that, eventually, the type might be operated by the Fleet Air Arm. However, he was of the opinion that the version being procured would NOT be marinised. Of course, this would be extremely limiting from an RN perspective!

If the Apache were only going to operate between Wattisham, Yorkshire and Wiltshire, the apparent lack of marinisation would not be an issue.

Can anyone say whether this limitation is still in place?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I think the issue of Apache aboard ship has been discussed on PPRuNe before - something to do with the centre of gravity being too high.....

Don't quite understand it myself.

However, during Operation Telic the Lynx and Gazelles of 847 destroyed 18 T55 tanks, 12 APCs and three artillery units (according to MOD(N) figures). In this task they were supported by overland surveillance by 849 and their SKW.

So I guess that means the (Green) Lynx is still viable?

[Follow Me Through]

When these aircraft get operational have they got somewhere to fire off their impressive ordnance? Or will they fire somewhere over the fine city of Salisbury and aim at the Plain?

[MightyGem]

ABIW, the first Sqn is going through it's conversion training as we speak, and the second should be staring shortly. Following combat training at Flt/Sqn/Regt level, they should be ready for ops in about a year. Possibly before the first Typhoon sqn. :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

MG,

Bit defensive there fella:rolleyes: ...........something to be embarressed about have we:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[What Limits]

So, what is 'marinisation' anyway? What would need to be done to the Apache to make it sea deployable or operatable. Remember that these helis do not pick up people or land on the water.

I understand that some live firing may be done in Canada although all weapons may be fired in a multi-threat environment every day, whilst remaining firmly bolted to the ground!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

WL,

Salt water is extremely corrosive when in contact with untreated aircraft. I seem to recall from an earlier discussion on one of these threads that the extra weight penalty imposed when treating our slowly emerging AH would have a serious knock on effect with regards performance.

I am sure someone in the know will aquaint you will all the facts and figures but I am sure you would aggree that as it's taken this long to get the thing to the first OCU the last thing we would want is to make them go rusty any earlier :ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[flygunz]

STH
The marinisation issue for the Apache is a current MAR subject and is being dealt with by the relevant testing authority. Ship trials have been programmed for some time and will take place during the first part of this year.

WEBF.. you are right that this subject has been discussed before but your point about a high C of G is just one of the issues that makes operating an Apache from a ship a demanding exercise. The Apache is blessed with four factors that could lead to dynamic rollover and they are: high C of G, narrow undercarriage, compressible struts and a fully articulated rotor system. It is possible to achieve the critical angle where the Ac could roll on a flat surface by simply gross mishandling. You can imagine a rolling deck creates difficulties!!


The lack of marinisation is not something the Army were unaware of when the choice was made, the US chose not to go that way as the USMC work the AH1 Cobra which I believe has always been able to work of ships.
I don't believe it is possible to retro-marinise an Apache.

What Limits... marinisation, the copius application of hammerite prior to picking up the rivet gun!!!
Just love the Bushism....operatable....

:8

ABIW.....yawn.

[Ian Corrigible]

A minor distraction from the on-going speculation re: force cuts...

Apache completes trial for operations at sea
Royal Navy 1/4

The Apache Attack Helicopter – one of the most advanced helicopters in the world – yesterday completed trials on HMS Ocean that will eventually allow it to fly operations at sea.

The trials test the limits of the new helicopters to ensure they can be safely operated under the different conditions at sea. Further trials will involve other Royal Navy ships and pilot training will follow.

The completion of this trial marks an important milestone in the overall program, which aims to achieve an initial Maritime Operating Capability next year.

With the first trial now complete, the Apache – considered one of the most significant weapons systems to enter service with the British Army in recent times – can now prepare to operate from ships in support of both land and amphibious operations anywhere in the world. Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Bach said: “Completing these trials is a major milestone in this program. Apache is a hugely flexible and formidable fighting platform and being able to operate from sea will ensure it plays a major part in all manner of operations for years to come. The successful completion of the trials has boosted the already impressive capability of this aircraft.”

The helicopter will form part of the Army’s 16 Air Assault Brigade. The Apache can be armed with a variety of weapons including Hellfire missiles, rockets and 30mm cannon rounds. With its on-board surveillance and target acquisition systems the Apache represents a major increase in capability.

I/C

[SilsoeSid]

ABIW. Please nob off. Thanks.
Seconded, unless you have personal involvement, which I doubt in your position, please stay off any 'green' subject matters, as you seem to always be telling any non-S.A.C.'s coming on to your threads. :hmm:

Anyway, if the first CTT has been completed as reported in other threads and nearly here, then some serious issues are out there.
Akin to having a motor-race at Brands Hatch and the first 12/24 to surtees corner only have to race the Indy circuit and not the GP circuit.
:ooh:

[timex]

has the AH programme had a few probs at Sea last week? We lost some slots because the AH were still there. Don,t really think AH will work out there. However could be pleasantly surprised.

[BossEyed]

Timex,

Apache spent no longer at sea than originally planned.

HTH.

[timex]

BossEyed,

So why did we lose our slots having been told that the AH couldn't complete the trialls? Not a dig just curious?

[CAC Runaway]

Timex,
The Apache trial on Ocean lasted only the amount of time that was planned and arrived back on the scheduled day so not sure what you were told, but it was not true.

[Navaleye]

Perhaps the doom and gloom merchants about the Apache's maritime potential have it all wrong,

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/content.php3?page=1&article=785

Navy news reports that they should be cleared for shipboard use by year end. Just the small :confused: matter of pilot training. The are most likely to be cleared for Albion and Bulwark and perhaps the new LHAs.

[timex]

Perhaps the doom and gloom merchants about the Apache's maritime potential have it all wrong,

lets not forget this is just the first trial, personally I think that the AH will have nightmares at sea, I cannot see them working from a ship for 24 hrs a day . AND the people who will be relying on them (Royal Marines) will want them on call all day and all night.

I take it then the AH will also provide EDATF (Emergency defence of the Amphibious Task Force?)

[thirtymill]

Navaleye,
What most people are really trying to say to is that basically you are ill informed and out of date!
This dullard approach you have is probably one of the reasons you are not part of this exciting programme?

[Bill O'Average]

Well said 30mm!

[Navaleye]

Here's some more "Ill informed and out of date" speculation - this time
from Navy News with some good pics.

Apache on the Ocean (http://www.navynews.co.uk/articles/2004/0405/0004051101.asp)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I seem to remember that in the mid 1990s the US moved troops into the Carribean state of Haiti and amongst the ships sent was a carrier. Instead of carrying the normal air group she was carrying helicopters including Apaches. So it has been done.

According to someone who was aboard Ocean during the first phases of the trials him the idea is not to base Apache onboard on a long term basis, but to cover the landings and then proceed ashore with the bootnecks, possibly setting up a a Foward Operating base ashore.

I don't know if this means 847 NAS will get them, a AAC unit will be subordinated to CINCFLEET or if RN/RM flyers will be attached to the AAC....

Since landings can only take place when the sea is relatively calm, the stability issue is a bit of a red herring.

But without the Sea Jet (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98152) is it (or the force it is part of) survivable?

[tsetse]

alltrimdoubt,

I, more than anyone in my belief has the right to say that the ethos and "modus operandi" (scuse spelling) of the AAC is more atuned to the AH64D than RAF. I do not wish to upset people however I have flown with AAC and currently fly RAF. AAC are "down in the weeds". RAF are at FL nosebleed. To understand the battlefield at battlefield level can only be achieved by someone that has put his boots on the afore mentioned. I do not decry chinook, puma etc but the personnel to operate the apache are ex-tank crew. Same SOP's different platform!
We all have our own part to play, and we all do it to the best of our ability. There is no one trade structure that is superior to any other. Without all others, one person cannot operate!

[SilsoeSid]

I do not decry chinook, puma etc but the personnel to operate the apache are ex-tank crew. Same SOP's different platform!
It would be interesting to see the make up of backgrounds of the AAC Apache crews. In particular, to hear why their background will be so much of an advantage. Remember all trades in the Army are able to apply to be aircrew and a lot have been successful.

There must be a wide range of Pilots with primary trades such as Policemen, Teachers, Clerks, Engineers, Cooks, Signallers, Train drivers, Sailors etc. I've a feeling there will be very few ex-tank crews....but I may be wrong.:ouch:

AAC....Soldier first!

Ex-chef............Same SOPs different hotplate!
Ex-Clerk...........Same SOPs different desk!
Ex-Policeman.....Same SOPs different beat!
you see the pattern!

[Bullet Tooth Tony]

Silsoe

I can assure you that there are a great many ex tank drivers currently flying with the AAC and I know of one or two that are already in the AH programme.

You are quite correct though, the diversity of trades is huge and long may that continue. I believe that the Corps benefits from such diversity.

[Magoodotcom]

WEBF wrote, "I seem to remember that in the mid 1990s the US moved troops into the Carribean state of Haiti and amongst the ships sent was a carrier. Instead of carrying the normal air group she was carrying helicopters including Apaches. So it has been done."

That's correct WE, and in fact there is an even more recent example, that of the USS Kitty hawk offloading its air wing and embarking only US Army and USMC helos at the start of the Afghanistan campaign in late 01.

The idea of using army helos, regardless of type, from naval platforms is not a new one. Most new types are cleared on potential naval platforms in case a contingency arises where such a combination would be required. It doesn't necessarily mean that helo needs to be navalised by the addition of folding rotors, tailbooms and treated drivetrains etc for long term shipborne ops.

The Australian Army operated Black Hawks from RAN LPAs in East Timor and the Solomon Islands in recent years with great success, because someone had the foresight to conduct 'first of class' clearance trials a few years back. ;)

Makes sense to me.

Cheers :ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Apache AH MK1 - DPA (http://www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/apache.htm)

Attack Helicopter Team - Army (http://www.army.mod.uk/aht/index.htm)

UK Apche Resource Centre (http://www.ukapache.fsnet.co.uk/)

[SASless]

Navaleye,

Your statement...."By the summer an operational unit consisting of four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters will be merged into 16 Air Assault Brigade — Britain’s answer, on a much smaller scale, to the American 101st “Screaming Eagles” Division. Next year a full battle group of 16 Apaches and eight Lynxes will be operational, but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s."...almost sounds like a Yank talking. I would suggest two Lynx and four Apaches do not an Airmobile Division make....heck...it ain't even a platoon formation for a "lift company" and there's four platoons in the company. Now I know the British Army is the only professional military in the world and all...but do give us a break here. We got more Apaches doing gate guard duty on iron poles than that!
:E

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

And I suspect that by the time we get all our AH out of the packing cases and up and running you good folks will still have more of them sat on poles guarding gates:E

Smart procurement:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[airborne_artist]

Navaleye: By the summer an operational unit consisting of four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters will be merged into 16 Air Assault Brigade — Britain’s answer, on a much smaller scale, to the American 101st “Screaming Eagles” Division. Next year a full battle group of 16 Apaches and eight Lynxes will be operational, but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s

Let's analyse that:

four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters - enough to support an assault on a well-dug in battalion sized force

16 Apaches and eight Lynxes - about what you'd need to assualt an armoured brigade plus its support

"but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s" Sorry Mr Dictator, you'll have to wait until we are ready to take on your T72s and ZSU 23-4s....

15 years + to get one type of one aircraft ready for service, while the rest of the British Army suffers death by a thousand cuts - glad I'm out of it.