AAC Apaches ready to go - nearly
Suspicion breeds confidence
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AAC Apaches ready to go - nearly
From the thunderer - what a shambles:
AFTER a decade of design problems and delays, and at a cost of more than £4 billion, just four of the British Army’s 67 Apache attack helicopters will be ready for full-time operations this summer.
However, it seems unlikely that the Ministry of Defence will want to risk such a small force in any hostile environment.
The arrival of the Apache, the most formidable weapon system ever flown by the Army Air Corps, will transform the Army’s whole doctrine on manoeuvre warfare, according to Brigadier Richard Folkes, Director of Army Aviation.
By the summer an operational unit consisting of four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters will be merged into 16 Air Assault Brigade — Britain’s answer, on a much smaller scale, to the American 101st “Screaming Eagles” Division. Next year a full battle group of 16 Apaches and eight Lynxes will be operational, but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s.
Concern about using the first four Apaches in anything but a benign environment was underlined by the experience of the Americans in the war in Iraq. In its first mission of the war, the US 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment, with more than 30 Apaches, was forced to retreat after flying into a hail of Iraqi small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. One Apache was shot down. Even though the other Apaches, all of which were hit, returned safely to base, the operation was a blow to the reputation of a mighty war machine that was sent to Iraq to destroy Iraqi tanks.
However, Brigadier Folkes said at the Army Air Corps headquarters at Middle Wallop, Hampshire, that it was tactics, not the helicopter, that were at fault. Apaches, he said, should not operate in isolation but as part of an overall land-manoeuvre strategy in which all elements, including troops and armour, should be involved in the same mission. Subsequently in the Iraq war, US Apaches played a leading part in destroying armour.
The first British Apache pilots, from 656 Squadron 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, are now training at a new centre at Middle Wallop which includes two giant simulators for practising attack helicopter war missions.
The training programme for 168 pilots, as well as ground crew and maintenance staff, is costing £1.1 billion under a Private Finance Initiative scheme involving a company called Aviation Training International. The 67 GKN-Westland Apaches, with advanced Longbow radar, a huge array of weapons and support programmes, are costing £3 billion.
Although the simulators are acknowledged as world-beating training facilities, they were the main cause of the delay in the programme. The MoD ordered them late and because the software proved to be more challenging than had been expected, there was a delay of 18 months.
There were also technical problems with the helicopter itself. In a report last October, the National Audit Office revealed that debris from the powerful CRV7 rockets and Hellfire anti-tank missiles was flying back into the rear stabiliser and causing damage. There were also communications problems with linking pilots to ground commander
AFTER a decade of design problems and delays, and at a cost of more than £4 billion, just four of the British Army’s 67 Apache attack helicopters will be ready for full-time operations this summer.
However, it seems unlikely that the Ministry of Defence will want to risk such a small force in any hostile environment.
The arrival of the Apache, the most formidable weapon system ever flown by the Army Air Corps, will transform the Army’s whole doctrine on manoeuvre warfare, according to Brigadier Richard Folkes, Director of Army Aviation.
By the summer an operational unit consisting of four Apaches and two Lynx helicopters will be merged into 16 Air Assault Brigade — Britain’s answer, on a much smaller scale, to the American 101st “Screaming Eagles” Division. Next year a full battle group of 16 Apaches and eight Lynxes will be operational, but it will take until 2007 for the whole Apache force to reach full war-ready status. The Apache programme began in the early 1990s.
Concern about using the first four Apaches in anything but a benign environment was underlined by the experience of the Americans in the war in Iraq. In its first mission of the war, the US 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment, with more than 30 Apaches, was forced to retreat after flying into a hail of Iraqi small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. One Apache was shot down. Even though the other Apaches, all of which were hit, returned safely to base, the operation was a blow to the reputation of a mighty war machine that was sent to Iraq to destroy Iraqi tanks.
However, Brigadier Folkes said at the Army Air Corps headquarters at Middle Wallop, Hampshire, that it was tactics, not the helicopter, that were at fault. Apaches, he said, should not operate in isolation but as part of an overall land-manoeuvre strategy in which all elements, including troops and armour, should be involved in the same mission. Subsequently in the Iraq war, US Apaches played a leading part in destroying armour.
The first British Apache pilots, from 656 Squadron 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, are now training at a new centre at Middle Wallop which includes two giant simulators for practising attack helicopter war missions.
The training programme for 168 pilots, as well as ground crew and maintenance staff, is costing £1.1 billion under a Private Finance Initiative scheme involving a company called Aviation Training International. The 67 GKN-Westland Apaches, with advanced Longbow radar, a huge array of weapons and support programmes, are costing £3 billion.
Although the simulators are acknowledged as world-beating training facilities, they were the main cause of the delay in the programme. The MoD ordered them late and because the software proved to be more challenging than had been expected, there was a delay of 18 months.
There were also technical problems with the helicopter itself. In a report last October, the National Audit Office revealed that debris from the powerful CRV7 rockets and Hellfire anti-tank missiles was flying back into the rear stabiliser and causing damage. There were also communications problems with linking pilots to ground commander
Suspicion breeds confidence
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This
The point is this. Defence procurement in this country has now degenerated to a level on a par with a Whitehall farce. We have aircraft without wings, attack helos without pilots, we have been building submarines to an unfinished design. We spend a year figuring out how to chop 10,000 tons off our future carriers, only to revert to the original design. The last Shar was delivered in 1999. So what do we do? Take them out of service 5 years later having invested £ms in them. We tell the world that what we really need is strike aircraft not fighters, then (most likely) cancel tranche 3 of Eurofigher which delivers this capability. The list goes on and on. I'm just glad to be out uniform now.
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Navaleye
This is not new information so I'm not sure where you have been for the last couple of years! If you balance the short delay in the Apache programme to the long and costly delays in other programmes such as the Typhoon, Astute type submarine, Nimrod Mk 4 and C130J then in reality, the Apache PFI through Westlands/Boeing and Aviation Training International, has been a success.
The accuracy of your post is well wide of the goalposts and I can assure you that as far as Army Apache training is concerned, the future is looking good for Army Aviation in the world of Air/Land Manoeuvre.
This is not new information so I'm not sure where you have been for the last couple of years! If you balance the short delay in the Apache programme to the long and costly delays in other programmes such as the Typhoon, Astute type submarine, Nimrod Mk 4 and C130J then in reality, the Apache PFI through Westlands/Boeing and Aviation Training International, has been a success.
The accuracy of your post is well wide of the goalposts and I can assure you that as far as Army Apache training is concerned, the future is looking good for Army Aviation in the world of Air/Land Manoeuvre.
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The Death Star... in 1986 during a lengthy clean up and resupply in the Falklands, my crewman and I named the soon to be completed Mount Pleasant Airport the 'Death Star' as it seemed to suck the old Scout (God bless 'er) in for refuels from any direction, but particulary heading West against the prevailing!
We reckoned it was a tractor beam of some sort and 14 degrees of pitch was no match for the power of MPA!!
But Bill if you are referring to the Borg cube located in the delta quadrant, normally called Middle Wallop, then according to my sources most of the time all is well and training continues.
As for me, a humble civvie just keeping in touche.....
Chris Robin, stay off this post now......tiger!
We reckoned it was a tractor beam of some sort and 14 degrees of pitch was no match for the power of MPA!!
But Bill if you are referring to the Borg cube located in the delta quadrant, normally called Middle Wallop, then according to my sources most of the time all is well and training continues.
As for me, a humble civvie just keeping in touche.....
Chris Robin, stay off this post now......tiger!
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Sorry to rain on your parade, but in my experience (and I'm NOT aiming at the vast majority of Army NCO aircrew here - most of whom are professional and worthy) the Army's approach to aviation as defined by their "people" in charge is as realistic as letting "Cousin George" loose with the damn Apache!
Sorry guys - truth hurts!
Sorry guys - truth hurts!
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MG,
Both articles made very interesting reading but I could not find any referance to our Apache's.....................was this a journ'o typo?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Both articles made very interesting reading but I could not find any referance to our Apache's.....................was this a journ'o typo?
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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MG,
Sorry, should have been more specific, I meant i couldn't see any ref to our Gunships seeing any action in either of the articles and wondered if that was a typo........or have I missed something again
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Sorry, should have been more specific, I meant i couldn't see any ref to our Gunships seeing any action in either of the articles and wondered if that was a typo........or have I missed something again
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I am not trying to score points here, honestly, but am just curious.
A few yrs ago I was discussing the future of ship-borne aviation with an RN chap and the Apache issue was raised. Putting these on board, say, HMS Ocean would seem to provide a significant littoral CAS capabilty that we thought would be useful for the RM ... the suggestion being that, eventually, the type might be operated by the Fleet Air Arm. However, he was of the opinion that the version being procured would NOT be marinised. Of course, this would be extremely limiting from an RN perspective!
If the Apache were only going to operate between Wattisham, Yorkshire and Wiltshire, the apparent lack of marinisation would not be an issue.
Can anyone say whether this limitation is still in place?
A few yrs ago I was discussing the future of ship-borne aviation with an RN chap and the Apache issue was raised. Putting these on board, say, HMS Ocean would seem to provide a significant littoral CAS capabilty that we thought would be useful for the RM ... the suggestion being that, eventually, the type might be operated by the Fleet Air Arm. However, he was of the opinion that the version being procured would NOT be marinised. Of course, this would be extremely limiting from an RN perspective!
If the Apache were only going to operate between Wattisham, Yorkshire and Wiltshire, the apparent lack of marinisation would not be an issue.
Can anyone say whether this limitation is still in place?
847 NAS
I think the issue of Apache aboard ship has been discussed on PPRuNe before - something to do with the centre of gravity being too high.....
Don't quite understand it myself.
However, during Operation Telic the Lynx and Gazelles of 847 destroyed 18 T55 tanks, 12 APCs and three artillery units (according to MOD(N) figures). In this task they were supported by overland surveillance by 849 and their SKW.
So I guess that means the (Green) Lynx is still viable?
Don't quite understand it myself.
However, during Operation Telic the Lynx and Gazelles of 847 destroyed 18 T55 tanks, 12 APCs and three artillery units (according to MOD(N) figures). In this task they were supported by overland surveillance by 849 and their SKW.
So I guess that means the (Green) Lynx is still viable?
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When these aircraft get operational have they got somewhere to fire off their impressive ordnance? Or will they fire somewhere over the fine city of Salisbury and aim at the Plain?