Malayan Airways: "For Half the Pay"

[Prince of Dzun]

Way back in the 1960s Malayan Airways operated a daily DC3 service from Singapore to Sandakan with stops at Kuching, Sibu, Labuan and Jesselton. The crew night stopped Sandakan and next day flew the same route back to Singapore. It was an interesting and enjoyable two days with a credit of about 17 hours flying. The sector from Jesselton to Sandakan was something special as it was only flown direct if the tops of the en-route mountains could clearly be seen. If they were obscured then it was necessary to go north to Kudat (to avoid Mt. Kinabalu) and from Kudat fly down the eastern shoreline to Sandakan. We often flew along the beaches at 1000' or less and only a poet could describe the beauty of this route. Even on wet cloudy days there was a touch of magic in the DC3 as it purred along effortlessly at 130 kts over stetches of white sand, beautiful blue green water, shoals of coral, beached fishing craft, palm trees, kampongs and waving children. After Kudat with rain restricting visibility it was essential to pay close attention to what lay ahead and it was good to know that Sandakan tower was always ready to send up a flare to help find the airport. The pink glow of a red flare as seen through water streaming off the windscreen was always reassuring and it avoided the necessity of climbing to lowest safe and flying the NDB letdown. It was on one of these scenic flights as F/O that the captain laughingly said to me: "I'd do this for half the pay but don't tell anyone. " My reply "So would I. "
That's how it was in those days, the pleasure of flying came first and all else seemed to come second.

Prince of Dzun

[I-Fly-River]

Hey there Prince,
I've gotta agree with you there. Nowadays, the no1 priority for young pilots is MONEY, followed by the type of aircraft they fly (hehe). It quite sad to see this happening as alot of them are in the airline cadet pilot programs. Correct me if im wrong, but there are alot of other quality (by airline standards) guys and a gals who would, given the chance fly for half the pay of these guys, but unfortunately their chances of being accepted by these airline cadet program are almost o% because their father is not a politician or bigshot in the airline. Again, correct me if im wrong.

I-Fly-River

[knackeredII]

Why are we regurgitating this one again Prince?

[maxy101]

Probably wouldn't be so romantic or so much fun if you were flying 20 days a month with no crew food or decent time off at home for half the pay though?

[Prince of Dzun]

I-Fly-River:
You are perfectly correct in your assessment of the wrong types who get into airline flying. It's sad that the right types never have the connections but it's easy to tell who should be there. They are good at it.

k-----II:
Try reading between the lines and you will see I am trying to say in the nicest possible way that the "Red Guards" of SIA should stop making themselves unhappy and count their blessings.

Maxy101:
Would you rather by flying 20 days per month with everyday different or would you rather be driving a taxi for 30 days a month with everyday the same.

Prince of Dzun

[b777pilot]

i would rather drive the f**king taxi and draw the pay of a pilot. how's that?

job satisfaction is one thing, but getting denied is another. if you two are as senior as you sound, you are on easy street.

does not matter if you are a lion or a tiger, you guys have got it made. i have gone to enough weddings to have met you lot.

how can you say the younger gen only care about money? isn't money one of the criterion of a professional?

what's wrong with a lust for the lifestyle of the guy who is training him? it is positive motivation! you actually want to be successful so that you can live below your seniors? does that make sense??

drink your wine and eat your cheese, but spare us the 'i would fly for free, cuz' it is payment enough' crap.

oh btw, i am not one of the red guards in sia, but i would be proud to be a friend to any one of them.

[CI54]

Prince of Dzun,

We still do the Jesselton (now known as Kota Kinabalu) Sandakan flight these days. And we still follow the Kudat route (now known as W420) in the afternoon when we can only see red returns on the EHSI for area covering Mount Kinabalu. On one of the flights early last year, a B737 hit a tunderstorm cell while using the route and one of the crew at the back suffered a fractured leg. We treat this route with utmost respect due to the sudden build up of CBs in the afternoon (as I believe you all did back then).

Of course nowadays things are much better in terms of safety. Kinabalu is now equipped with area and terminal radar. Sandakan has a 6900ft runway equipped with ILS for rway 08 and the aircraft that we fly today of course are much better equipped with powerful turbofan engines which makes climbing to 25000 ft a breeze for BKI-SDK sector.

These days we are unable to have a good look at the scenery along the way but at 25000 ft if the weather permits, we have a wonderful view of Mount Kinabalu. And on the way back from Sandakan, on descent for landing runway 20 Kinabalu, we are able to have a good look at the small villages at the foot of Mount Kinabalu (beautiful from the air, cant imagine how it feels to be there). As we get nearer to the runway, we are able to see the two Universities (UiTM & Universiti Malaysia Sabah which is one of the most beautiful universities in Asia) and a few minutes before landing we are able to see the coast with Yayasan Sabah standing proud by the sea.

Would I do it for half the pay? In these days of material needs goes hand in hand with better quality of life, I would say our generation have a lot to differ in terms of consideration in comparison with your generation. But we do enjoy the job just the same...

[southernmtn]

Prince of Dzun,
I would like to suggest that you put your money where your mouth is. Give half of your pay from now on to a recognised charity. If you have already retired just give half of the last ten year's pay before you retired to a charity. This is not asking too much from you. If you cannot do that then you do not qualify to preach.

People are judged from their walk, not from their talk.

[sycamore]

PoDz, didn`t know a stewardess called Lettie ,did you?:ok:

[Prince of Dzun]

C154:

Thanks for writing such an eloquent description of the Jesselton (as I knew it) Sandakan route. I enjoyed learning to know how you do it these days. I can't imagine an ILS at Sandakan. The airfield I remember was made of crushed coral and sand and when it was wet one could 3 point the DC3 as if landing on a feather bed. It was even better than landing on grass. I know those halcyon days of the DC3 are gone forever but it was that famous French aviator and poet Antoine De- St. Exupery (who had many wise things to say about aviation and pilots) who said: " memories are invisible wealth." He was not wrong and one day you will agree with him because you will remember what you are doing now and you will have forgotten how much you are being paid to do it. Trust me, I have thirty five years of doing it and I know. Money is not everything!!
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

southernmtn:
I will answer you tomorrow and do my best to straighten you out.

Sycamore:
I can recall the names of every DC3 hostess I flew with in 1965. If you so wish I can put them up here (both first and second names). Unfortunately, there is no Lettie.

Prince of Dzun

[b777pilot]

i can hardly wait

[tebuan]

p of dzun-keep the old memories coming back. like to hear more of the borneo tales . don't be put off by the antics of some. lets hear some stories and leave the industrial side out-there are plenty of threads for that!

cheers

tebuan

[Prince of Dzun]

b777pilot:
I actually agree with some of things you say but unfortunately you seem to be missing the most important part of the equation which is "I want to do it". Four bars and four power levers come later. Rather like a reward!!

Southernmtn:
What you suggest I should do is really not very sensible but I understand what you are saying. I don't think we will ever agree because had I been paid more for what I did then I would have gladly taken the extra. Conversely had I been paid less for what I did then I would have taken that too. I'd like you to read two quotations from Antoine de Saint Exupery which you may find enlightening.
1. "Flying constitutes the dignity of a craft in that it creates a fellowship, binds men together and fashions for them a common language."
2. "Flying is a classless society and it raises men from mediocrity. "

These words of wisdom have the ability to lift your spirits whenever the going gets tough so perhaps you may want to commit them to memory.

tebuan:
Unfortunately very little has been recorded about Malayan Airways and Borneo Airays and the only written words that I know of are contained in Captain Colin King's autobiography entitled " Luck is No Accident" which is the story of his life as a pilot in the Korean War and as an airline pilot. There is an interesting chapter on Malayan Airways that deals with the day to day flying of the DC3. If you wish to know how to obtain this book then let me know, it costs about $30 US direct from the author. Regards to all,

Prince of Dzun

[b777pilot]

you wouldn't be a harley rider would you by any chance?

ok, you took all of 35 years to find out that you were over-paid at your job? goodness!?!

and during all those years you never, never, ever argued, debated, fought for higher pay, better working conditions, more benefits??

wow! what a guy?

i presume you were made instructor. and you frown upon your trainees and hope they would have a std of living less than yours? oh man.........

please tell me you made it to management??

i think tebuan is right, stick to sharing your experience of your MAL/MSA/MAS?/SIA? days. give the rest of us working stiffs a break from management crap. i have enuff of it in my box, thank you very much.

[Kaptin M]

"We often flew along the beaches at 1000' or less :}..........After Kudat with rain restricting visibility it was essential to pay close attention to what lay ahead :uhoh:and it was good to know that Sandakan tower was always ready to send up a flare to help find the airport. :sad: The pink glow of a red flare as seen through water streaming off the windscreen was always reassuring and it avoided the necessity of climbing to lowest safe and flying the NDB letdown." :*

What sort of a cowboy operation was this??!!
You'd last all of 1 sector in today's aviation world, before you had your licence pulled, doing stunts like that.
It's a much different world today, old timer.

"I can recall the names of every DC3 hostess I flew with in 1965."....but can't remember what you did an hour ago?

[millerscourt]

b777 pilot I am inclined to agree with your sentiments on this one.

There are far too many Pilots around these days who I think have to pinch themselves every morning cos they just cannot believe that they are sitting in a big shiny jet, travelling around the world seeing places they could never afford to visit and staying in Hotels they could only dream of staying in and who because of this are prepared to do the job for "nothing" almost.

Their lack of their professional worth sickens me.

[Kaptin M]

A sign of the times, millerscourt??
Pilots finding themselves suddenly IN a position that they thought they would have to wait for, much longer!!

The lack of professionalism is due to their lack of experience - something that will reflect in damages to aircraft & pax in the medium term.
And will cost a few, their careers.

[bonzaman]

Kapitan M.
Your describing the story told by the Prince as a "cowboy operation" clearly illustrates the you have no knowledge of the history of aviation, or more probably no interest.
You are quite correct in your statement that today's regulators would not allow such operations, however, had not the pioneers. the Prince among them, not achieved what they did, with the aircraft and facilities available to them, you would not be flying in your shiny glass cockpit today.

[Prince of Dzun]

Kaptain M:
I believe in the art of physiognomy and in your case I'm sure the bitterness you continually direct at others would be easy to see. This bitterness rebounds upon yourself and extracts a price that you are reminded of every time you look in a mirror. You have my sympathy.
To save you thumbing through a dictionary physiognomy means to judge a person's character from their face.

Millerscourt:
Your thoughts made me think of a proletariat who mentally upgraded himself to a bourgeoisie. Funny isn't it, how a few words can give you away.
Regards to you both,

Prince of Dzun

[b777pilot]

can you explain to me how in the f***ing hell did you wiggle your way out of a perfectly good debate and ended up teaching us your version of english?

you know what?

i think you are a FAKE! i don't think you have even been nearer than 50 ft of an aircraft.

i think your drinking chums told you that story. that you re-hash a million times to make yourself feel like a pilot. its no wonder you say you would do it for half the pay.

YOU WERE NOT DRAWING IT, IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

okay, coming back to the original argument. let's assume you have a family.

would your household be as please if you were willing to work for half of what they wear, eat, spend, go on holiday? no doubt to a nearer destination? how about the two fancy cars that your sons are driving?

go ahead ask them? i can almost hear the laughter from this side of the screen.

i can hear you know telling your chidren to go to the best med school, graduate and work for pittance. job satisfaction is good enough.

as kaptin M and millerscourt put it, you do not know the meaning of the word.

i have a few years short of your claimed experience, but i have no respect for ppl who run down others when they have had their fill of the good old days.

oh yeah, one other thing, i don't think ppl like you have contributed any to commercial aviation-as one other would have us believe-the industry calls them profesionals!!

if, if you had your way, we would still be bashing about the bush looking for sea-shells to land this piece of aluminium.

come on, it is so.......your post reeks of it!!

assuming you are a pilot of course!

[bonzaman]

777
I have the advantage of you, I know the author of this thread, and it is my guess that he has been closer to more aircraft types than you have ever seen. Of couse that is if we accept that you have ever been closer that 50 feet to one.
Next time I see him I will tell him not to use such long words, you clearly have difficulty with the understanding.

[millerscourt]

bonzaman Ah so he has been closer to more aircraft types has he???

I got it . He is an" Aircraft Spotter" Correct??:confused: :confused:

[b777pilot]

sorry old chap, who the hell are you?

you mean he pays you to speak on his behalf? haven't you got something better to do with your life?

surely, a man capable of correcting others can speak for himself.

or are you the office idiot? who just could not let go of your old boss?

i directed my post at him not you but since you have decided to champion his 'glorious' self, i also hold you at task for encouraging ppl like him.

even if it's true, that he has flown 50ft of airplane or rather an airplane at 50ft, never mind, whatever, are you also of the belief that you too should be paid half of what was given you over the years?

since he is not here, and you opened your big mouth, i guess i will have to ask you.

long words? i think we here call it verbal diarrhea. that's ****s to you mate!! you understand?

[Prince of Dzun]

b777 pilot:
OK go ahead and give me a hard time but you don't seem to have taken on board what I previously said to you quote: "I actually agree with some of the things you say" unquote.
If your nom de plume is any indication then you are flying the best piece of equipment there is and your salary and conditions would reflect this. What do I have to say to make you realise how lucky you are? Regards,

Bonzaman:
Thanks for taking up the cudgell on my behalf. Beligerence set in concrete is how I see that noisy small percentage of fully extended strugglers. Perhaps it may be possible to salvage b777 pilot but I do wish he would stop swearing at me. Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[bonzaman]

777
My apologies for breaking into your forum, I thought this was an open discussion.
One more thing, after carefully reading your comments it is obvious that you have a very miserable life, I hope things improve for you.

millerscourt.
That was a very clever remark, did you write it yourself or did your parents help you?

[b777pilot]

swear? i haven't even started!

now that you are representing yourself, could we get back to your original post?

why after 35 years, did you realise that you deserve only half your pay?

how did you pass judgement on ppl who do not deserve to be in aviation?

(and oh, bonzaman, there a bit of brown crud stuck to your nose. you might want to clean that up.)

i don't care who you are. like i said, you might even be a just recently retired tyrant from ...

i just want to debate your issue which you have side-step entirely.

and oh yes, you can call a friend.

bonzaman? why not?

[Kaptin M]

....had not the pioneers. the Prince among them, not achieved what they did, with the aircraft and facilities available to them, you would not be flying in your shiny glass cockpit today.What a load of bollocks, bonzaman - it was lunatical antics that your hero "pioneer", PoD, indulged in eg. electing to press on in, "with rain restricting visibility" to "avoid(ed) the necessity of climbing to lowest safe and flying the NDB letdown" which shows a true LACK of professionalism on his part.
NDB approaches were designed to PROTECT pax (and crew) from the likes of the Cowboy of Dzun and others - a few of whom I flew with some 25 or so years ago prior to their termination, due to their desire to "do their own thing".
Or was it, in truth, an INABILTY to be able to come up to the new standards in a changing world.

I don`t regard the type of careless exploits described by your hero as pioneering - I wouldn`t classify beat ups "along the beaches at 1000' or less", as forging new frontiers that would in any way add anything postive to aviation safety.
In fact, it reeks more of the "press on regardless" syndrome that have cost many pilots and their charges their lives since the dawn of aviation.

In reality, he was probably WORTH only half the pay!

[Sultan Ismail]

Many years ago I read and was inspired by the work of E.K. Gann, “Fate is the Hunter”, there was a hiatus in my appreciation of pioneering aviators until I came upon the writings of the Prince of Dzun on this board, he has moved the scene of E.K. Gann’s adventures to a place much closer to my present home, Malaya and Borneo, or Peninsular and East Malaysia as it these days.

I would suggest that you read his postings in the spirit of those other pioneers long gone and be thankful that we still have someone here to tell us how the great industry of aviation got started and demonstrated its ability to spread civilisation to the darkest part of the jungle.

Malaysia Airlines has continued in that spirit and still provides a service into the jungle, at considerable financial loss, and it still pays its pilots, however I cannot tell you what their thoughts are as they pass over that natural beauty. Perhaps in a moment of euphoria they would also “…do this for half the pay…”


The drivel that has since followed amazes me, just one example sets the tone for the rest, the writer has confused “beauty of this route” with “beat up’s” along the beach.

So please read the post and enjoy the tale that is told, it’s living history.


Sultan Ismail

[b777pilot]

datuk, there lies the problem.

if he only told his stories, without insulting the rest of us, i would not have bothered.

why i would buy him a beer if our paths should cross. i occasionally tell the younger guys a story or two whilst leaning at the bar....

but to say that some do not belong in aviation (according to his yardstick) and that he would do it for half the pay is a bit mucking fuch.

in truth, i tell you, i was trained by aviators of that era.

but never, have i heard them say things like this. even when they were pissed in the worst possible way. they impressed upon us to strive for the very highest standards, because it was the pillar of our trade.

i deserve each and every ringgit i earn, and so do a lot of contributors here.

i just want to know why it took 35 years? that's all.

[millerscourt]

Bonzaman

Seeing as how you brought up the subject of "Parents" I am just wondering whether you ever knew yours?

I suggest you lighten up a little and don't take everything so seriously. :ok:

[Prince of Dzun]

Sultan Ismail:
You have restored my faith in aviators just as I was beginning to think they had all been gobbled up by some sort of geni. It would be interesting to find out if the detractors on these boards know of the impeccable record of Malayan Airways. The winged Tiger flew from 1947 to 1967 for a total of twenty years and during all that time there was not a single aircraft or passenger as much as scratched. The Cumberbatch Trophy an international aviation safety award would not have been granted for nothing. There is still much to be told, all of which I am both proud and happy to have been a part of but with the infestation of recently surfaced "old women" one despairs that it will soon be forgotten.
Imagine the vitriol from Kaptain M and his ilk if I was to write the details associated with a night flight from Penang to Singapore in a fully laden F27 when I was obliged to shut down an engine not long after take off. The flight continued and proceeded on one engine to overfly two perfectly good airfields at Kuala Lumpur and Malacca with the passengers blissfully unaware. Without even knowing the circumstances he would say "the actions of a cowboy who wanted to get home". He would say that because it's not in his blood to appreciate how things were in those days. Fortunately there are still people like you who can.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[satumare]

Prince,you're a bloody cowboy,mate.No need for fancy lingo but that's what you are.

[Kaptin M]

"...a fully laden F27 when I was obliged to shut down an engine not long after take off. The flight continued and proceeded on one engine to overfly two perfectly good airfields at Kuala Lumpur and Malacca.."
Proving precisely what? That - your mind - you think you are some sort of superhuman being?
That confession merely confirms my earlier assertion, you were an accident looking for somewhere to happen, but which didn`t only through the grace of God.
If there had been some relevant operational reason for choosing to overfly KUL and Malacca, you might care to enlighten us.
Otherwise you stand guilty as accused, of unprofessional cowboy antics.

[HotDog]

Had that other engine quit between KL and Malacca, you would have had to dig yourself out of a very deep hole, me thinks.:rolleyes:

[marlin]

I could not believe my eyes to know a cowboy who is still proud he got away with his reckless antics. This cowboy would have got nailed thru and proper if he were to do all this in our present aviation climate.

[The Rage]

What makes u think he hasn't!

Anyway Prince i liked the stories, but for half pay, no way. I love flying, but by international standards we are already getting half pay!

[b777pilot]

whoa i says!!!

holy ****! old chap, you seem proud of this reckless exploit. if only the pasengers knew.....yes, indeed. (horror of horrors, some of our loved ones could have been on that flight!)

who was that again that wrote to attest of your 'contributions' to commercial aviation?

like i said, you have not backed up your orig thread and you have not cleared the air over who should not be in aviation.

based on what you wrote, under no duress, i know who should not have been in aviation.

i take back what i said about you writing only stories and nothing industrial, you may want to stop telling stories completely, if it reflects so badly on our profession.

you is one lucky b....... for surviving that one. (if that was for real, of course. hmmm, i have my doubts still.)

[Kaptin M]

More and more, I'm getting the feeling that this thread might be something that should be in Jet Bast.

How could pax in a "in a fully laden F27" be "blissfully unaware" that one engine had been shut down, on an F27? A feathered, very slow rotating prop, along with the associated lack of noise, and the required wing high/low attitude in the case of an engine failure on that type, would make it near to impossible for pax to miss.
Notice that our cowboy selects his words very carefully though.
in a fully laden F27 when I was obliged to shut down an engine not long after take off. The flight continued and proceeded on one engine to overfly two perfectly good airfields at Kuala Lumpur and Malacca with the passengers blissfully unaware. He doesn't actually say that the Fokker had a full load of passengers, but rather that it was "a fully laden F27" (a freighter?), and that the pax (sheep? pigs?) were "unaware".

But regardless, he chose to overfly "two perfectly good airfields".
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps there was good reason for electing to do this. Perhaps flares weren't available, or they weren't manned at the time he was airborne.

C'mon Prince, please enlighten us with your reasons for NOT landing "at the nearest suitable airport", after shutting down one of the two Darts.

[winglet21]

Gentlemen,

Please allow me to get trough the opinions placed on this tread. I ask you also to be kind enough to forgive my bad "english accent" as I spent my thirty two year career flying in the opposite side of the world.

I enjoyed the tales of Prince of Dzun. I can remember the times when the real good mates could land a DC3 on the three points because the short strips on the Rain Forest were flooded. It was a time when Vref was only a reference and the pilots didn't be afraid looking the airspeed coming down close to the ground. In our jargon in this part of the world we say that this means to feel the aircraft in your a**

I feel that I am one of those transition types. I flew DC3's, Lookeed Electras, B727's and a lot of hours in EFIS operations. I can remember the good old mates that landed the B727 with flaps 40 on very short runways after NDB approaches. I can also remember how thight has been my conversion from classic jets to new generation ones; I remember my very young simulator mate going faster than me trough automation, when I always decided to disconnect the autopilot and hand fly the machine when everything seemed too much confused.

Aviation changed a lot. I don't want to raise the question about safety statistics, regulations, role of CAA's,etc... We are now much more controlled, we can no more fly low and slow. We share our environment with a lot of other traffics, we are "seen" and even limited by electronic devices that doesn't allow us to explore the limits of our handling capacities.

Of course the development of technology brought safety and improvement to our industry. But it has changed the role of our profession without changing the level of responsibility of each one of us. In these modern times we must carefully evaluate every single decision taking into account the tight regulations that weren't the rule in the 60's or even 70's.

Our profession has changed since the 80's. May be is technology, may be is economical globalization. May be is all. I remeber the old pay when I got enough to change my car and give my family a decent life. Those were the days, my friends, when we all enjoyed the layovers together. Now I see the very junior guys trying to bring home as much money they can to to feed their children, to pay their houses.

I lost my job. Altough very senior in my company I was sacked together with the board of my association because of an industrial action where we didn't discuss pay increase. We were trying to abort the transfer of pilots to low cost carriers inside of our economic group. Very close to retirement I am experiencing how much aviation has changed in these thirty years... I am now looking for a job for half pay, may be twice far from home.

I have no doubt that we pilots are very similar all over the world. Of course I can enjoy the "tales" of Prince of Dzun from the times when suitable and adequate were not so important as one's handling and self navigating abilities. I miss these old good times when VOR meant visual over the river and I always pursued to be as good as the old mates that grease landed on three points. But I keep in mind every word of all of you that resist daily to "prostitute" our work conditions.

I wish you all the best. And hope to be again in a cockpit to make sure that I will have a safe retirement.

[Prince of Dzun]

Kaptain M:
You certainly are a wet blanket and I'm beginning to find your critical know it all suspicious diatribe rather irksome. To get some sense into all this, please read what's written below and then if it pleases you answer the question at the end.

Penang: Return to departure point, short runway, hills surrounding airfield, nil glide slope guidance (no Varsi), Cbs in area. No pluses for a single engine night landing.

Kuala Lumpur: Simpang required close attention even during the day. There is high ground close in around the airfield all of it unlit and a high hill on the downwind leg for landing to the south. Landing to the north required crossing a railway line embankment right on the threshhold. No Varsi. Not good for circling at night on one engine.

Malacca: Available but tower had to be called out and goose neck flares laid and lit, time waster, better to keep going.

Singapore: Destination, home base with maintenance facilities. No obstructions, flat approaches to long runways with Varsi at both ends. Clear weather.

It all happend many years ago but I remember the details quite clearly. I also recall that pushing on was an easy decision to make. Ignoring the fact that you dived into some deep water without the full picture perhaps with all your wisdom and experience you will now tell me just how this particular situation shoud have been handled.

Winglet21:
I enjoyed reading your sentiments and I trust you will find a good highly paid flying job soon. Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[HotDog]

The flight continued and proceeded on one engine to overfly two perfectly good airfields at Kuala Lumpur and Malacca with the passengers blissfully unaware.

So they were not two perfectly good airfields after all. Still, it dramatizes the narrative. You should write a novel, preferably a Wild West one.;)

[Kaptin M]

Penang: Hills do not "surround" the airport. An approach to one end of the runway is over the sea, with no high ground between the coast and runway threshhold. If conditions are VMC (which didn't seem to worry you too much when they weren't, anyway) then it is easy to make a right break and remain over water on downwind before turning base and final, well away from high ground, for landing on the reciprocal end.

Butterworth: A stones throw from Penang, would be available in an emergency.

"Malacca: Available but tower had to be called out and goose neck flares laid and lit, time waster, better to keep going." That is your opinion only, Roy Rogers.
The checklist for an engine failure in the F27 clearly states, "land at the nearest suitable airport".

Johor Baru ?: No metion made of JB, however I'm unsure when it opened.


"Singapore: Destination, home base with maintenance facilities. No obstructions, flat approaches to long runways.."
Paya Lebar (which is where I assume you were landing, and not Seletar) is a single runway from memory, with approaches to both ends over denslely populated residential areas.

perhaps....you will now tell me just how this particular situation shoud have been handled. In a word, Professionally.
Which is what the P in PPRuNe stands for. Your tales read like something from a Boy's Own or Biggles book, and your peurile (which means "childish", to save you running for your dictionary) comment, "You certainly are a wet blanket" is an indication that your blustering tales of yore are aimed at the non-aviation professionals who occasionally frequent this website.

Best of Luck in finding a job soon, winglet. The job scene is certainly opening up and, imo, will continue to do so this year - so perhaps you'll be airborne again very soon.

[Prince of Dzun]

Kaptin M:
You certainly know how to wriggle out from under and I continue to be intrigued by your never ending use of the word professional. You seem to need it as some sort of ego boosting talisman. It has crossed my mind that your nom de guerre should be changed to "Kaptin Parrot" as we all know a parrot is a bird that talks a lot but it is not one of high flight. In spite of everything I hold no grudge against you but I find it just a little sad (aviationwise) that you don't understand what I am saying.

Prince of Dzun

[Kaptin M]

Dear Prince,
Times have changed. I am not trying to "wriggle out from under", by presenting you with FACTUAL data that was as relevant to your operations then, as it is today.
Similarly, I hold no grudge against you per se, as you are quite probably representative of the airmen who flew in your era. You loved your company, and company interests were almost always paramount to one's thinking wrt operations - sometimes placed ahead of decisions, which had they been purely Safety orientated, would have taken second place.

But you were not crucified for making what was probaly a major cost-saving decision - at no discernible increase in danger to pax & aircraft.
Unfortunately, as aircraft have become more complex, we pilots are now monitored during EVERY phase of flight, including taxi-ing!!
We are becoming experts at covering our collective @sses, by doing EVERYTHING as per the employing company's SOP's.
In other words, I have been as harsh on you as any of today's employers would be.

Do I enjoy it?
Having been fortunate enough to have flown through the transitional period, I have to admit to mixed feelings. I flew for an airline that I loved, and might well have concurred with the decision YOU elected to make in continuing to SIN vs landing "at the nearest suitable" - but in today's "dog eat dog" world the very Company which we believe we are trying to help, is just as likely to terminate us, because we didn't operate to the letter of the O.M.

Maybe I've played Devil's Advocate with you, Prince of Dzun??
And hopefully YOU might understand why today's pilots seem so much more "mercinary" than you gentlemen were.

I tips me hat to you, Sir!!

[b777pilot]

i still think you are a fake!

you have deviated so far from your orig post without defending your position, now you even avoided defending your strategy in the scenario that you drew???

you know something? the guy that takes you on your base checks must be a long suffering soul. the way you keep rambling on about authors, days of yore, attempting to teach english, and all the while evading the technical issues.

do you wear that white scarf and leather whilst you at the keyboard?

come on, man, get a grip and just discuss the issues at hand. we are not cadets that just got thru the interview, give us something solid to debate.

[sycamore]

Come on you professional pilots,put yourself in the same position as PoD, in your shiny jet, from Penang, today, and lose an engine, What would you do? After sorting it out you would be on the radio to your Base , asking what to do---guaranteed!
If you talk about professional aviators; what about the national flag carrier pilot landing at HK, in a bit of a x-wind , and clobbering the pods on a 747; from the pictures it seemed as though he was landing across the runway" bit short , tuan, but very wide", and the other flag carrier who took off and scraped the tail at Auck. then flew all the way home...... Professional??? You guys get paid a lot, but sometimes it seems as though it is your only consideration............!
PoDz`s storyline related to a time when people flew by their intuition, seat-of-the-pants, local knowledge, in a/c that didn`t have the performance levels that todays a/c have, or the nav/radar etc; Would you pull up in a Dak or F-27, into a thunderstorm to do an NDB, when a safer option is to coast-crawl?
You guys are molly-coddled today; I`m not sure if many of you would have the natural handling skills to fly PoDz`s Tiger Moth
, and certainly your cross-cockpit management must be a joy to behold , unless it concerns your " ringgit" valuation of your worth!!
If you don`t understand it, it was what is known as a "throw-away-line", which is normal in certain surroundings when one is in like company, in certain circumstances--- a bit of a joke, not to be taken literally, or too seriously; However, you all jumped in with your mouths open-----as professional pilots were you never told to engage brain first, count to five, then speak!!

Furthermore, if any of you would have had cause to read and learn about the history of your airlines, instead of the market figures you would have a little more humility, and respect, for those pilots and crew who forged the way for you, professionals, to fly your wonderjets, and worry about your ringgits!:ok:

[b777pilot]

ah another one who rides around in his jag and now wants to be parsimonious!!

encik, all your tall stories cannot feed mouths lah. can i also take it that you would have done it all on half pay? before i go on?

if as you put it...." today...shiny jets...lose an engine....what would u do?" we might as well not do base checks!!! lose one out of KL, SIN,....wherever, we fly it to anywhere we want.

pls-lah, the folks here are not cadet pilots. we are not out crusing for a brusing either. but if something comes along and worth debating, bring it on man! bring it on!

and none of this, i have more flying then you so i know i am right kind of crap. oh yes, humility, hmmm, since you brought it up, i thought it was a hallmark of humility that you only told your stories when asked??

[Prince of Dzun]

Kaptin M:
I always had a slight suspicion that you were indeed playing the Devil's Advocate and that's OK as it has certainly kept this debate lively and I must admit I have enjoyed every word of it. I know about all the negatives you have mentioned and I also know about long nights and landing at dawn with sand in my eyes. Would I have done that for half the pay??? That's a question I can't even answer to myself. I'd like to propose a truce (the cease fire kind, not the Malay word for straight ahead).

Sycamore:
That's a nice piece of analytical writing. The Chinese people have a wise saying that goes: "When a person drinks at a well they should remember who dug it. " If one thinks about this then I guess that just about sums up everything in life.
As an aside, I remember Sycamore helicopters in Malaya.

b777pilot:
I understand what you are saying and believe it or not I'm on your side.
Regards to you all,

Prince of Dzun

[b777pilot]

ok prince. not one to reject an outstretched hand, i agree, we stop this.

if our paths should cross at a watering hole, and by and by it transpires, that we have 'met', let me buy you a round.

in addition, i would like to hear stories of hostesses of days gone by.

cheers!

[Kaptin M]

My apologies if it seemed a little heated at times, Prince - however to your credit you kept coming back and shooting more volleys.
I agree, it was a good lively discussion that perhaps gives you some indication of what we (pilots) have to contend with these days, to try to give you some insight as to why there is often an "anti-company" attitude vs the strong company spirit that you obviously enjoyed throughout your airline career, and that I was fortunate to also experience for perhaps the first decade of mine.
In other words, taking a particular course of action nowadays, which you believe is for the benefit of the Company - rather than strictly (blindly) following the OM - may well end one up being severly sanctioned (or worse) by management who have no real knowledge of actual flying ops.

Terima kaseh dan Selamat Jalan, Encik.

[bisaya]

hehehe. been a quiet listener for quite sometime now..

Kaptn M, i ALMOST started to hate you...


cheers to all.

[The Rage]

If only all conflicts in the world could be settled like this. Syabas!
The next time i meet kofi, ill recomend u guys get nominated for the peace prize.:ok: