Problems with landing!! Advice??!

[Foz2]

Hi,

I am about halfway through my PPL at the moment and everything is going fine apart from the round out and holding off so as to stall onto the r'way.

I did my first solo after 11 hours and since then have been doing mainly navigation because of the weather. I now have about 22 hours.

The problem is, sometimes I round out too low and then balloon and come down hard on the main wheels, or, I round out fine and then dont feel it when we start too sink towards the runway and by then its too late too get the control column all the way back.

I thought Id nailed it a while ago but obviously not. Any advice on this would be much appreciated as this is making me lose confidence.

Thanks very much.

Foz

[strafer]

The best advice I heard for learning how to land was simply, don't!

When you round out the plane will try to land itself but try to think of it, as your job being to try to keep it flying as long as possible. That's why you're flaring, to try and keep it in the air, all the while losing airspeed until you finally stall just as the wheels touch the ground (that's the theory anyway!).

Just keep practicing and soon it will be second nature (well, easier).

Re thinking you've got it nailed, then taking two steps backward - that's flying matey!

[TD&H]

Stalling on landing?!

A common mis-conception. Even most tailwheel types arn't in stalled condition in the three point attitude. If you were stalled just above the runway then got it wrong by a few feet then a nasty wing drop could happen, would not make your day!

However try to relax, being tense will make things worse, so you become more tense etc.

Try not to fixate on one point. Use peripheral vision to help judge the flair/hold off.

[FlyingForFun]

Sounds to me like you may not be looking in the right place, especially when you say "The problem is, sometimes I round out too low and then balloon and come down hard on the main wheels, or, I round out fine and then dont feel it when we start too sink towards the runway and by then its too late."

The idea, once you've rounded out and are in the process of holding off, is to look into the distance (the end of the runway is often a good guideline for how far into the distance, but this depends on the length of the runway). There is a specific point whereby, if you focus your vision on that point, your brain can easily figure out how high you are, and whether you're moving up or down relative to the runway. Someone (Chuck?) posted a very good description of this quite some time ago, including a mathematical explaination of why this works. I got lost in the maths, but it really does work - it's just that it's not something that anyone can really demonstrate how to do, you just have to learn it by yourself.

My other tip would be to read everything which anyone writes on this subject, and try it all. You might find that none of the advice works, except for one thing which one person says, and then it suddenly clicks into place.

Good luck!

FFF
-------------

[dublinpilot]

I agree completely with FFF.

Same thing happend to me in the middle of my training. Instructor reminded me to look down the runway, and not just in front of the nose. All of a sudden everything was back to normal ;)

[Johnm]

The best book I have read is here
http://www.avshop.com/catalog/product.html?productid=3672

or on Amazon.com. Making Perfect Landings in Light Aircraft by Ron Fowler helped me a lot. The key is to do all of the bits religiously!

Hope that helps

J

[strafer]

TD&H - if you want to be pedantic, then learn how to spell 'flare' first. ;)

[bluskis]

two questions

Are you flying a low or high wing airplane?

if the latter,and with a springy u/c to boot, nice landings come a little more difficult. No ground effect available, and a catapult waiting to put you back in the air .

Have you had the same instructor for the 22 hours, if so is it time
to try an instructor with a different patter?

[Field In Sight]

As you approach the threshold move your focus from your initial aim point gradually to the end of the runway and at the same time adopt the landing attitude (usually put the nose on the horizon i.e. the climbing attitude.

Once you have the landing attitude DON'T CHANGE IT then use power if necessary to adjust the sink rate.

To help you learn this, if the runway is long enough fly along as low as possible in the landing attitude and use the power to stop you touching down. Once you can do this consistently landing is a mere case of closing the throttle.

FIS

PS Make sure you can see properly (i.e. use cushions if necessary).

PPS. Don't worry about it too much, they'll get worse before they get better (then worse again :))

[Saab Dastard]

Foz2,

Don't worry, you are not alone!

There's been a few threads on this topic over the years (if search is enabled you may be able to find some good stuff) on this forum.

2 things stick in my mind, one is "Aim at the ground and miss as long as possible".

The other (less helpfully) is:

"There are 2 easy stages to a perfect landing - problem is, no-one knows what they are"

Good luck, you will nail it (for a while, then lose the plot then regain it, etc.).

SD

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Foz2 :

Several things to note.

First: You cannot "feel" height above the runway, you " see " it.

Second: Get another instructor.

Third: Search through these threads, somewhere I went into detail regarding how to land.

Fourth: Do not look to far ahead, around five hundred feet down the runway will be about right.

Chuck

[Airbedane]

Foz2,

Did I read this bit right:

'I did my first solo after 11 hours and since then have been doing mainly navigation because of the weather. I now have about 22 hours. '

If I did, here's 2 major points:

1. If the weather wasn't fit for circuits, then how can it be fit for navigation?

2. What happened to a few hours solo circuit consolodation after the first solo - it's an essential exercise to fix all the skills you've learned, such as landings, before progressing to anything else?

I'm not surprised you're having difficulties. I would suggest you insist on practicing your circuit skills before you do anything else. You can put into practice the other good advice in this thread, fix the landings, and then progress to off-circuit exercises.

[Papa Charlie]

Entirely second that Airbedane - I missed the bit about the bad weather when I first read Foz2's post.

The ONLY way I hung together all the advice from fellow club members and from 2 different instructors was from bashing those circuits over and over again in the period betwen 1st solo and nav. Also with different weather and different runway directions so that I didn't get too hooked on one approach only.

But, Foz2, it does come eventually!

PC

[Whirlybird]

I suspect what happened is that Foz2 went solo, then the wx was too bad for solo circuits, but OK for dual navs. So as not to waste time, they carried on with that - not ideal, but neither is not flying till the wx improves. Am I right, Foz2?

As for landings, what you're experiencing is quite common. I found that looking far enough ahead was usually the problem; other than that it's just practice. But if you've had a break from practising this very new skill - as you have - of course you forget it a bit. Frustrating I know, but it'll come back, then you'll forget again, and finally get it licked...until the time you have a lay-off for a while and forget again, etc etc etc. Read everything; it may help. Personally I find all that helps is doing it, but everyone learns differently: some by listening, some by watching, some by doing, some by a mixture of all of those.

[fireflybob]

On a slightly different tack some comments about how we learn anything new.

Tony Buzan in his book "Head Strong" poses the question "What is the underlying goal of all learning?". 99% will answer "To get better with every trial" and then poses a further question "Do you agree with the rest of the world, or are you going to establish yourself as a maverick?".

You need to read the whole arguement (anyone interested in teaching and learning I highly recommend his book) but he suggests that the underlying goal is to LEARN from every trial (ie attempt) NOT to "get better".

What has this to do with learning to land, I hear you ask? Everything! Quite simply do NOT expect to get better with every attempt at landing! When things do not go according to plan, just say "How fascinating - I wonder why the aircraft did that? What have I learned from what has just taken place?", and then apply what you have learned to the next attempt.

Quite simply if you expect to get better with every attempt at learning to land you are setting yourself up for failure. Remember that you can practice Straight and Level for hours at a time but exposure to landing has to have a circuit in between which is another reason why it takes longer to learn.

Obviously all the comments about correct technique are totally valid but treat the aircraft as a sort of giant laboratory and you might come up with some interesting perspectives. Remember also that a good re-demonstration of landing might help also - watch where the instructor is looking whilst HE is landing.

Good Luck & Happy Landings!

[IO540]

My 2p contribution is that after 350hrs I've decided that airspeed control is the most important single thing.

The airspeed on final doesn't matter much, so long as it is right at the start of the flare.

And the figure will depend on the aircraft configuration. The trouble is that a PPL is not (IME) told that it varies according to configuration (according to weight, basically, for a given flap setting).

If I come in even 5kt-10kt too fast, I always bounce about; the alternative is to do a perfect flare and settle into a ground effect glide taking me halfway down the runway :O

[Foz2]

Whirlybird has it right, the weather has been really difficult recently for solo circuits. Not necessarily the cloud base but it has been very cross windy which is no good for solo circuits but fine for dual navs. We've also done steep turns, PFLs and diversions.

Im flying everday this week (weather permitting) so Ill let you know how I get on!!

Blueskis I am flying a high wing (c152).

Thanks for your advice

Foz

[Kolibear]

Foz2,

This may sound a bit silly, but is the seat in the same place for each flight?

When its in its lowest position, the view you get over the nose will be completely different to when its fully raised.

If your instructor is saying something like 'raise the nose to the horizon', and the seat is fully down, then you will be flaring more than if the seat is fully raised.

It doesn't matter where you have the seat, so long as you are comfortable and it is consistent from flight to flight.

Apart from that - nail the speed and look at the end of the runway.

[Northern Highflyer]

Best advice I could give is to "stick at it".

If you are following what you are taught then it will happen. I spent many an hour circuit bashing during my training. I would nail a greaser and then the next one would be a nightmare. The instructor said that one day it would just click but it never did. After many hours in the circuit I thought he was just trying to make me feel better, but you know what ? one day it just clicked !

You will master it, I promise.

Good luck
NH

[Sensible]

Something else to consider is the approach, what is often put down to bad landings is a bad approach and a bad landing follows as night follows day! What you must have is your speed constant and the aircraft properly trimmed. if it's not trimmed properly and the airplane stable on the approach then a low hours pilot will have extreme difficulty in making a good landing. You need to have a "touchdown" point - often the runway numbers and then fly to that touchdown point , you then need to roundout and hold the airplane a couple of feet off the runway and gradually increase back pressure on the stick/yoke untill it is fully back and the airplane drops onto the runway. If the stick/yoke isnt fully back at the time when you touchdown, you didn't land, you arrived! That is most important especially with a glider or tailwheel airplane.

Try a different instructor, ask him for comments. I have to say that some instructors put a student on overload with too many instructions.

[ACW 335]

Go circuit bashing in a tail dragger (Like a grob 109) with a different instructor. Jump back in whatever you nomally fly and everything will be so much easier. Also have you tried grass?

[Airbedane]

Notwithstanding other posts, I'm still of the opinion that you're going too far too fast. I've discussed it with colleagues this morning and they are of the same mind.

Every sylabus I've seen for learning to fly puts navigation at the end of the course. First solo is followed by circuit consolodation, then off circuit work such as sector recce, steep turns, pfl's. It's done that way for a reason, you need to consolodate circuit flying and landings before you learn anything else. Go too far ahead and you'll loose what you've already learned. Further, when you've finally got around to flying the circuits you seem to need, you'll have forgotten how to steep turn, forced land and navigate and will have to repeat those exercises.

Doing things out of order is a great way to put hours in yours and your instructors log book. In the long term, it's also a great way to waste money.

Get some circuit practice in and if the weather's not fit, don't fly.

[Capt. Manuvar]

FOZ2
IO540 is totally right about Airpseed control and also about landing speed being dependent on different configurations. one of the intergrated schools (Oxford?) teach this from day one. In airliners Vref can vary by as much as 40kias!!
65KIAS is the landing speed at MTOW with flap 20. If you just completed a long XC flight and instructor jumps out and you try to land it at 65KIAS/flap20 you should expect a to float a bit. I'll personally use about 60kias if i'm solo and less than 3/4 fuelled. But its better to use 65kias for now and later on as you get more confident you can experiment with different airspeeds. the PA28 i fly is supposed to be landed at 75 kts at MTOW but on my last flight i was solo with 1/4 fuel and i had no prob landing at 65.
Safe flying
Capt. M

[shower of sparks]

Airbedane has hit the nail on the head.

The syllabus is structured in such a way as to help you to consolidate what you have just completed whilst expanding your skills a little bit each flight.
I have flown with far too many pilots and student pilots who can do ace steep turns but can't fly a decent circuit on a windy day, or fly S&L with external visual references only... The solo consolidation phase is a delicate and formative time designed not only to give you an opportunity to practice your flying skills but importantly a time to practice being in command of the aircraft and making decisions and judgements for yourself without the emotional safety net of an instructor by your side.

I suggest that if the weather is not suitable for solo circuit consolidation, you would be better served by doing a few dual circuits and getting some landing and crosswind landing practice in. That will help you greatly when the weather is good enough for the instructor to jump out again.

And another point... When you are faced with the challenge of not only flying the aircraft and doing something else at the same time (such as navigating) you don't want to be distracted by less than reasonable weather during the first couple of attempts. There is no point in rushing the basics - it will cost you in the long run. We live in a climate less than ideally suited to PPL training and if you happen to be training during the winter we just have to accept these limitations.

Best of luck - I'm sure it'll come good for you.

SOS

[Northern Highflyer]

the PA28 i fly is supposed to be landed at 75 kts at MTOW but on my last flight i was solo with 1/4 fuel and i had no prob landing at 65.
These figures seem quite high. A PA28 will land at around 50-55Kts with full flap. Excess speed can cause a student to think they have done something wrong as the float seems to go on forever while it bleeds off, making you think "will I run out of runway ?" This tends to make you try to "force" it onto the ground before it is ready, usually resulting in a poor landing.

[shower of sparks]

This tends to make you try to "force" it onto the ground before it is ready, usually resulting in a poor landing.

Before it is ready??? I would prefer to be making the decision to land, not the aircraft.

Landing is about correct threshold speed, correct ROD, correct attitude. If you have all three you will land safely and where you WANT to land, not just where you end up...

Best,

SOS

[Foz2]

Thanks for all your opinions and help.

I went up today for 2 hours solo and it seems to have clicked!! I nailed pretty much all of the landings! Funny what one nights sleep will do eh??!!

With the greatest respect to Aerbedane and Shower of sparks, I do not agree as I am training fulltime. If I hadnt have gone on those dual navs and pfls etc I probably wouldnt have even sat in a plane for a month and I would have been totally out of the groove.

As I said I am training fulltime so I will not have forgotten pfls etc. I am a firm believer in if you are really struggling with something dont keep beating your head against a brick wall by doing hundreds and hundreds of dual circuits. Try something different and then come back to it with a different frame of mind. It seems to have worked for me!!

Thanks all for your input.

Foz.

[SpeedBird 001]

Hey Foz,

I might be a little l8 in replying to this post as you seemed to have got it now. I too am a low hour PPL and have found that even though you've got it now - don't be disheartened if next time aint so pretty. That's flying!!! One of the many pieces of great advice my instructor gave me (hi elizabeth) was to get the airspeed where you want it on final and keep it there. Trim for your decent configuration make small corrections. Ensure your permanently scanning the length of the runway and develope a sense of depth perception in your peripheral vision. Once in the hold-off/flare phase fight off ground effect and sit the aircraft on the main wheels. I'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs but it is something that is hard to explain. It is a "feel" matter more than a text book issue. Remember every situation is different and sometimes what is right on a given day might be different on the next. It's your job as the pilot to asses the situation and do the best you can for any given circumstance. I don't completly agree with landing the aircraft stalled but have found that kissing the runway just as the stall warner sounds to be a good idea on short fields. Remember the warner is exactly that, just a warning that the aerofoil is approaching the stall. A good recovery/go-around can be made from the warner. Hope this helps and good luck with your flying.

BirdSeed :ok:

[Northern Highflyer]

SOS

Maybe I didn't word it right ?

I was referring to the "float" that occurs when flaring with too much speed on. The aircraft doesn't settle at the point you want or expect it to, hence a relatively new PPL will see the runway being eaten up without feeling the wheels touch where they expected or wanted them to, hence the "force it before it is ready" comment.

Of course if threshold speed / ROD / attitude are correct then you will land where you want to, but when you are new (and not so new in some cases) to it then maybe not all 3 are just how you would want them.

Regards

NH

[Boing_737]

The best tuition I had was from my RAF QFI when I flew on Southampton UAS. Basically they teach you to:

(a) fly a constant and stable approach, adjusting your speed for the conditions (such as add 5 knots in stronger winds for safety).

(b). When you come to flare, look out of the cockpit into the far distance, and use your peripheral vision to look at the grass either side of the r/way (this was a very large tarmac r/way at Boscombe Down :D ). When the grass seems to be about level with your eyes, your wheels are about to touch (this was for a Bulldog, but I have found the principle is the same in a Warrior). Don't get put off by ground rush.

(c). Always aim to fly the aircraft onto the runway. Do not just give up and wait for the wheels to touch otherwise you'll bounce.

These principles stood me in good stead when I eventually got around to doing my PPL.

[superstar]

I also did my PPL full time and like foz2, went on to do dual navigation due to weather preventing me to do solo circuits. This enabled me to stay up in the air rather than not being able to fly for ages!

It didn't mean that I was "rushing the basics" at all, and it didn't cause me any extra costs for that matter!! I still managed to complete in minimum hours. Rather than waiting for the weather for solo consolidation I was able to continue flying. And by doing the navigation, I still had to come back and land so I got more dual practice from that! I think its a bit harsh to say get a new instructor, the majority of people do find landing difficult but eventually you will get it!! (Which you obviously have done foz!) Its not always the instructors fault, its just how quickly you get the hang of it.

The moral of the story is perhaps not to criticise the teaching until you know the intentions of the instructor. I had the same instructor for all of my training apart from a couple of lessons whilst he was on holiday. Its best to stick with one person rather than changing between instructors as they will get to know the way you fly and will probably understand the best way to explain things to you as a person. If you feel at ease and get along with them as well then thats a bonus, as it makes the flying even more enjoyable!!

Good luck with your flying foz2!!

[SteveQB]

I had trouble with landing at the beginning of my PPL course. I was ready to go solo except for the rather crucial missing bit that I couldn’t land. My instructor kept on showing me how to do it, and lesson after lesson went by without success. We were both getting frustrated and I was seriously thinking about stopping because I thought I would never get it. Then I thought of a way to get as much practice as I wanted to, on Flight Simulator.

I already had MS Flight Sim 2002, but only a joystick, so no rudders (the rudder is done automatically if you have a joystick). I actually think part of the problem I had is that I simply wasn’t used to using rudder pedals because I had used the computer so much before I started to learn to fly. I invested in some proper pedals and a plane yoke with levers for the throttle and mixture etc. (cost about £180, less than 1.5 hrs lesson down here).

One Sunday night before a lesson on the Monday I sat at my PC and landed again and again (I think about 40 times). I went solo the next day at 15 hours.

I am not advocating the PC as the be all and end all, but it is a very useful way to “keep your eye in”. If you are going to an unfamiliar airfield it can be useful to see what it looks like before you get there for real, the ones I have tried all have the right taxiways and layouts. I still use it if I haven’t flown for a while, it saves me money in the air.

There is some sound advice in the other posts on this thread, and doing it on your PC would enable you to practice different methods for a relatively small one off outlay.

Steve

[gingernut]

Foz 2, I had similar problems at your stage of training, in fact I nearly jacked it. Had some really helpful replies to my post here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42711&highlight=gingernut)