Massey training

[wheatools]

Hello, just after some opinions regarding the perception of pilots who trained at Massey Uni from guys who work within the industry. I believe in the past there seems to be lots of animosity towards the guys who trained there. Is this due to inferrior training? bad attitudes of students? the school? Any comments?

[max rate]

All of the above...............

[Split Flap]

Well said, I agree.

[jimshutt]

I am sorry to say to the above contributers that they are talking rubbish. I have had the experience of working along side these Massey trained people in a large Flight Training Establishment. They are highly skilled young pilots who are amazed as I am of their ill founded reputation. John Shutt.

[Woodend1]

highly skilled? What about hand fed thru a large flight school?

[jimshutt]

Highly skilled in the sense that they are excellent instructors. John Shutt.

[Late Landing]

Unfortunately the commercially driven aim of being able to turn anyone, who pays the right amount of money, into a pilot does not work in reality.
As an ATC I have seen many of their students pass through the area on cross country flights. Some are very clued up on proceedures and airmanship and sound professional. However others, notably from Asian countries, leave much to be desired. At times these students have a instructor with them, yet sloppy R/T and procedures seem to be accepted as the norm, with little or no obvious input from the instructor. At times it seems that as long as the training establishment is getting the bucks that's all that counts.
This is my perception. Perhaps I'm totally wrong and would be glad for some constructive comment - hopefully from an instructor.

[outboundjetsetter]

I must agree Late landing, ive met about 4 good guys from massey who are pretty switched on as for the rest.... watched the 3 aircraft i suspect you are talking about today-typical example.ist one was lucky it didnt crash.You must have been the controller i saw get out his bino's in a hurry!.As an insturctor i was amazed to watch them approach 20-30 knots too fast and not be able to make correct decisions whether or not there might have been a tail wind component?.Their training cannot be rushed which i suspect is the case, since they are here for so long before jumping into their airbuses/boeings...
Im sure it would be hard for the rest of us to fly in china however thats no excuse to lower standards!

[Jack Sprat]

My experience working with a number of graduates is similar to Johnshuts - the massey trained instructors are very capable with a positive and mature attitude. I can't say the same of the handful of new CPL / MEIR pilots I saw. They seemed to have had unrealistic expectations of their value to aviation poured into them and it showed in their rush to leave the grubby world of GA. Not what the operator wanted to see at all.

[jimshutt]

Latelanding, I am an instructor, and I hold ratings from the most simple of gliders up to the 737/300. and I have had experience working with the the people the unifomed are rubbishing and as yet I have not come across a poor performer.[instructing wise] AS for the large institutions making the big bucks dont believe it I am still waiting for my promised November pay cheque!

[wheatools]

split flap, max rate are you opinions from actual experiences with massey trained pilots?

I agree with the comments regarding the big school and some poor examples of airmanship etc but isnt this typical of any big school dealing with a wide range of students from foreign contracts to the average cpl meir student not just from massey in particular?

The reason i have asked these questions is to gain an understanding as to whether this so call reputation is founded from actual incidents/experiances or just rumors and a general dislike as the students are undergoing a different training syllabis (sp??) to the average course.

[Split Flap]

weatools,

Perhaps I have just struck a couple of bad ones, but all of the massey pilots that I have flown with in light aircraft had handling skills that made me want to be sick. When my turn came to have a say with regards to recruiting there CV's would instantly go in the bin. Just my opinion of course, from other opinions here, there seem to be good ones, perhaps I was unlucky.

[Woodend1]

I've met students from a large N.I. flight school using GPS for their CPL X/Cs around the S.I., then getting lost coming into the CH CTR?? These same people will be training on 737s sometime later this year back in the motherland. Yikes!!

[AerocatS2A]

In Massey's first few years of aviation training, there was a lot of scepticism in the NZ industry. Part of it fueled by the odd incident of students getting lost on Xcountries, part of it fueled by the perceived ******-factor, ie. wearing uniform and epauletes. The aircraft stood out because they had "Massey" callsigns, eg "Massey 258". This means that when any mistakes are made, it is obvious who the operator is.

I have personal experience with 2 Massey students. One seemed to be a good pilot who is now an FO with Easterns, the other was a bit of a no-hoper who could afford the training (around $50,000 at the time) but didn't seem to have any real drive to be a professional pilot. For the 2 years it took to get my CPL and a job, he moped around doing nothing. Last I heard he was still unemployed. Probably didn't help that he wouldn't accept a job on a single (even if the company had twin turbines with a reasonable rate of progression onto them).

That's obviously not a big enough sample to show anything except that, like all flying schools, it churns out some gravel along with the gold.

[slice]

unifomed - adj. An individual raised to a higher level of aeronautical worthyness by virtue ofthe fact that they paid a great amount of money to attend university. from Aramaic fome - to pleasure oneself without partner.

:}

[nike]

They are an easy target.

As is anyone associated with an organisation.

If a Pilot in a plane with no distinguishable marks or easily identified company has an incident, one probably makes a comment which would start.....

"the other day I saw this plonker come in to land and.........."

as apposed to.........

"the other day this idoit from (INSERT COMPANY HERE) came in to land and........."

and the response is

"typical, those guys are shockers...I remember another one...."

Its the classic Band-Camp mentality.

As for Massey being better or worse, I think the whole lot are shockers. GA in general needs to wake up and start producing a better Pilot regardless of who they trained with or gained experience with. Stop chasing dreams of jets and grow a career instilling good piloting skills and attributes at each stage of your progression.

[splatgothebugs]

Not trying to insult those that work or train at Massey...........BUT...........
From my experiences, personal, flying and ATC I can tell you that there training is a little poor.

Most, not all have a lack of airmanship which shows up when they enter busy control zones or in general conversiontion with other pilots.

My opinion and this is just mine.

Train somewhere where you can get your qualifications within 18 months - 2 years get into the industry and start getting experience. If the degree is the draw card for you then study via corespondense while you work through GA because your going to have plenty of spare time.

Before I get hammered for my comments remember, I am not having ago at these students or instructors personally I am just simply stating what of have seen. :ok:

splat

[wandrinabout]

Have been following this thread and cant believe the crap I am reading. My two cents worth....

What does it really matter where someone gets their licence, purely because that is all it is, getting a licence.

Then its a matter of getting off ones arse, going out into the big bad world and rubbing shoulders with all the other uglies out there, finding that crucial first job, and then and only then... do you actually begin to learn how to operate in the aviation world. The licence is only the prerequisite to reach this point. Thats it.

What are some of you people trying to imply? That whatever organisation/operation you use to obtain the neccessary document, is then going to influence someone to such extent that they will forever and a day be a xxxxx student. Get real.

How much do you think someone can learn in 150 to 200 odd hours anyway. Its not designed to set the student up for the rest of his/her career, its purely the basis to get on ones way. Most instructors these days are not career instructors, they are inexperienced themselves, just using insructing as a stepping stone and move on asap. Granted, some are more concientious than others, and do actually try to instill as much of the realities in the short time available. One could take a utopian view that larger training institutions have the financial fortitude to attract training staff who consider training aviation in a more career minded fashion, as opposed to a small aero club /GA operation. Maybe.

Unfortunately, the marketing of some training organisations is such that they fool some of the more susceptible into believing that what they are doing is unique and special in some way, and that its is somehow going to magically open doors for them. Unfortunately, when it comes time for such types to venture forth with a higher than thou attitude, it furthers the myth of "another xxx student" On the other hand, there are those more a more realistic viewpoint and go in with their eyes wide open. As someone said previously, the gravel with the gold, and that my friends is absolutely evrywhere.

As for a previous poster that mentioned when seeing CV's on his desk from applicants that were trained at xxxx, he immediatly bins them. Shallow my boy, very very shallow.

I am an ex Massey student, never really considered it as significant. It is simply where I trained to get my licence. I was aware when I signed on that there was some "anti" myths being perpetuated. That to me was understandable. When it started, Massey was a very new way of doing things. Would I do it again? Yes, if it was the same environment it was when I went through. When I sat my CPL flight test, as the FTO climbed out of the a/c, he said and I quote "there you go boy, you now have a licence to go and learn".
Very wise words that stuck with me.

I am now a Captain with a Middle East flag carrier airline. I have done the hard graft to get here. I survived, some around me unfortunately didn't. Massey did me no harm. Lost contact with alot of my colleague's, but some I am aware of are doing very well all around the world - and I can assure you, they do not have their heads up their arses!

Some of you need to stop looking over your shoulder, and just get on with it.

[Fox3snapshot]

Massey product is just a ticket to learn, as with all low and high end aviation courses. They do not advertise "Do our course and you will be God's gift to aviation".

Onto my fourth country now (including Un-Zud) in the aviation industry and very confident that the product from Massey and similar is of a respectable International standard.

Perhaps a little rivalry from those that have and those that wanted to is healthy for a bit of banter, but make sure you have a sound base for slagging off another institute that has produced and continues to produce respectable operatives in the aviation industry.

WANDERINABOUT
I think I have spoken to you on frequency over this way...apart from your weird accent you have proved that a bit a of Massey in your blood hasn't done you any harm!

SPLAT
You obviously haven't been exposed to many environments that operate basic flying training schools have you? Perhaps a day at Bankstown will with all the "Baby Billy Bugsmashers" will open your eyes to the reality of the training world.

NIKE
Perhaps its time for you to go back to band camp, did you get scrubbed at Massey????

:uhoh:

[nike]

Fox3snapshot

In reading your history its seems you have a propensity for shooting from the hip standing six feet away and hit the dirt 3 feet in front of your target.

Have another read.

You have agreed with my sentiments. That indeed we are given a licence to learn and with that in mind we must seek out opportunities to gain experience. I have no ill with Massey, nor any other Organisation.

Good luck in your fourth country.

[Speeds high]

What does it really matter where someone gets their licence, purely because that is all it is, getting a licence.

I disagree to some extent.

I have flowen with persons of many thousands of hours whom i was left wondering if they had obtained there last BFR off the back of a cereal box with $2.95 P&P, while some freash CPL students have blowen me away with accuracy and superb attitude.

I think a persons first instructor and would even go as far as to say first couple of lessons affect the way they fly and there attitude towards aviaition for a very long time.

Yes a persons own self disipline may overcome crap instruction in the future if they are lucky enought to pick up on the fact they have been tought crap, but i have an inherrant distrust in the human race and therefore tend to think that this seldom happens.

[wheatools]

While your 'inherrent distrust in the human race' may be well founded it seems that from many of the replies posted here the massey students are not even being given the oppertunity to disprove this theory. It seems as they are already tarnished with the stigma from training at massey and due to this they are not capable pilots in the GA world?

[splatgothebugs]

If you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.

Perhaps you should read the last line of my post :ok: and yes I have been exposed I lived in Parafield gardens for 4 years as a young fella.

I am well aware of what training orgs are like the thread is about MASSEY hence the comments on MASSEY and no other training establishments.

;)

splat

[Luke SkyToddler]

Fox3snapshot -

You are the one who has no idea about what or whom you speak.

You might be very surprised to find out the basis on which nike and splat are actually capable of passing informed judgments on Massey.

Sure there are a few good pilots make it through the program despite its shortcomings, however the graduate ratio of plonkers to capable pilots is far far higher than it should be, given the high and mighty drivel that frequently emanates from not only its marketing department but many of its senior managerial and academic staff.

I have made my own opinions known at length on here and can't be bothered to write them all again right now but I don't really need to because the whole industry knows the truth.

If you are reading this and even thinking about training at Massey then do yourself a favour and apply this simple test : go to your nearest airport, stick your head into any crew room of any airline, and ask the first pilot you see what their opinion of Massey graduates is :ok:

[ZK-NSN]

I think most pilots or controllers would have a horror story about a run in with a massey student, i was nearly cleaned up be a massey pa-28 leaving an uncontrolled circuit and have heard far worse stories, but thats the same for most schools of a similar size to massey when students basically seem to be units of production (the old sausage factory story) but i guess massey students are exactly that - students who like most students will screw the pooch once or twice. I think alot of students at these places are having a lot of smoke blown up their backsides as to their training and job prospects at the end of it all. Training with a commercial operator i think is a better way to go as you get some exposure to the realities of the industry, but at the end of the day employers will look at where you trained but what you did inbetween that is going to count.

[DVDA]

I think the problem with these big flight schools is that they develop a bit of a vicious cycle. You have generally below average students turning into below average instructors, thus teaching thier lack of understanding of the basics to other students. And the cycle continues. It's only a small percentage of pilots who graduate from these sausage factories who get the good jobs.

[cloudcover]

What a load of BS:rolleyes:
"a lot of smoke blown up their backsides as to their training and job prospects at the end of it all" Do you think these students
think their instructor is there for fun and they will move above
them on the food chain with 200 hours!???:hmm:

[wandrinabout]

Speeds High:
I think a persons first instructor and would even go as far as to say first couple of lessons affect the way they fly and there attitude towards aviaition for a very long time.
You are dreaming mate. Most people could not even remember their first few lessons, let alone be forever influenced by them. Insignificant.

I have flowen with persons of many thousands of hours whom i was left wondering if they had obtained there last BFR off the back of a cereal box with $2.95 P&P, while some freash CPL students have blowen me away with accuracy and superb attitude.

Arggh. That is the whole point!!! Everybody is different. You cannot label people based on preconception or some aspect their background. Tread with care if you continue to do this, or you may someday become severly "unstuck"


Luke Skybaby:go to your nearest airport, stick your head into any crew room of any airline, and ask the first pilot you see what their opinion of Massey graduates is
Why??
And if you did, I hope the response you would get is something along the lines of "p!ss off". Normal people have more important things to do than to play your childish games. Go home and change your nappies.


Nike:As for Massey being better or worse, I think the whole lot are shockers.
then later...I have no ill with Massey, nor any other Organisation.

Sudden change of tack there Nike. What happened? spine fall out? Perhaps you too fired from the hip but but your smoking gun was too much for you and it dropped on your foot and made you cry?


One thing I do despise is bullies. That is what I see alot of Massey bashing being about. Its the school yard psyche. Regurgitating ill feelings in a particular direction, just because the others are, so thats the way its done. Graduates are helpless cannot lash out for they are at the bottom of the heap, and who cares anyway.
I was lucky. I did not come up against this stigma, that I was aware of. I do hear stories of others that do. Small people, smaller minds.
However, I do also suspect that some use it as a crutch to explain or lay blame on others as to why things are not working out. Again, small people.

My point? Be careful where you spit, you may slip over in it one day.

[stillalbatross]

Ah, the usual "backward smallminded screwed up NZers" mentality. Would have thought a lot depends on the student and their attitude and ability which pretty much goes for flight training anywhere. AFS churn out CPLs, you telling me there aren't a few muppets there too? So a few at Massey aspire to jets early on, so what. Plenty of new CPLs in the rest of the world don't go through the equivalent f**ked up GA/Regional circus that is NZ, they go straight in RHS 737 and are the better for it.

[Luke SkyToddler]

And if you did, I hope the response you would get is something along the lines of "p!ss off". Normal people have more important things to do than to play your childish games. Go home and change your nappies.

And why, pray tell, do you hope that someone coming up to you and asking for a bit of simple advice would get told to 'p!ss off'? (I've got a pretty fair idea of the answer :rolleyes: )

And that's another thing ... the bloody sheep mentality of some of these students ... the ones who come up to you halfway through their CPL training all upset because the penny's suddenly dropped - normally about the time they notice that their flying instructor has got 2,000 hours and been instructing for 5 years and desperately trying to get out of the place. That goes for ANY of the big schools who routinely lie to their prospective students. How could someone standing on the brink of maybe going and blowing off $100,000 and 3 years of their life, why would you NOT go find as many airline pilots as possible and canvas their opinions on how they got there and what they think the best way to get there is?

Unlike some others here with hidden agendas I've got absolutely nothing to lose. I'm already flying for an airline and so are quite a few other contributors on this thread. However I don't approve of people who look prospective customers in the eye and lie through their teeth, ( a practice that is far far too widespread in NZ GA ) hence why I take every opportunity to try and encourage wannabes to find out the truth for themselves.

Anyway I stand by everything I said ... I don't have to damn Massey because there are thousands of others who'll do it for me. If you do indeed get told to p!ss off by some airline pilot, (which you won't), then go find some former Massey students (you'll find them working in Burger Kind the length and breadth of the country :( ) Ask current students. Ask people from other schools and aero clubs. Ask people who fly charter and scenics and air ambulances up and down the country. You shouldn't have to ask more than a few and you'll get a pretty clear and consistent picture coming through.

Or you could just do like 90% of the others, believe everything in the glossy brochures, line up like sheep and hand over those big student loan pay checks. Your choice :ok:

[ZK-NSN]

CLOUDCOVER:
Ex massey student eh? I think smoke blown up their backsides is a very mild way to put it. i have had the massey sales pitch and had i beleived any of it i would have sign over $68k then and there! Christ i bet the boys at massey are having the time of their lives and it will give them some fond memories for when they move on to the service station down the road.
Massey is in the group of school's who promise the world and then when they fail to deliver tell you to read the small print.

[Oktas8]

Why do people confuse the organisation with the students?

Almost any big flying school will tell all sorts of lies (oops I mean Public Relations speeches) about how wonderful they are, and will therefore attract all sorts of sheep, most of whom will end up in a service station or Burger King because they didn't realise that one actually has to work, and hard. Bad organisation! Bad!

And since students at big schools tend to be guided (led by the hand, whatever) through the course, they generally need to be taught the facts of life in their first CPL job. Ignorant students! but not bad I think.

The Blogg's Aero Club graduates however already know the facts of life, and will get a better reputation in that first job. Lots more sheep will go to the service station at this stage, because they don't have what it takes. Slightly less ignorant ex-students now perhaps.

After two years or so, what separates the Blogg's Aero Club-ites from the Big Flying School graduates (gradu-ites?) Not much that I can tell, because both now know the facts of life, and both have proven they have the skill to take care of a light aircraft. Good pilots! Good!

It's a shame that people (according to rumour, lots of people at a HN based operator) won't distinguish between the student sheep destined for the service station, and the two-years-or-more-in-GA hard workers.

Now tell all the stories you like about terrible Massey-trained pilots you've seen / heard. I have no doubt you are telling the truth, and I have my share too. Please also tell stories about ZK-ABC, or DEF or whatever, which did not have the misfortune to carry a memorable callsign.

And please don't build your preconceptions and prejudices by saying you'll burn the forest because the first 20 trees are stunted. Lots of countries have very big forests now, and getting bigger - the forest-growing trend is here to stay, and will no doubt continue to produce many stunted trees along the way.

Thanks for reading my ravings - hope they make sense! :)
Oktas8

[Speeds high]

wanderinabout:

You are dreaming mate. Most people could not even remember their first few lessons, let alone be forever influenced by them. Insignificant

1/ i never used the word forever

2/ If you ask a psycologist they would tell you that one does not have to remember something to be influenced by it, and also changing someones initial attitude is many times harder than creating that initial attitude. It sticks with them.

reguardless all those i have asked today remember the first time they hoped into an airplane, there first lesson, therre first solo and other important events. I am left wondering why you dont?

Also id like to point out that i never pre-judge someone by there background, and judge them solely by there performance during a flight.

Mt comment was however a little vauge; i find it interesting how many persons from a particular background all preform the same.

[nike]

wandrinabout

I don't really think its a case of my spine falling out. Nor is it a change of tact.

In possibly a less cryptic way....

Look to the students, not the company.


What I was attempting to say in the first instance was...unfortunately there is and probably will always be a sect of the community that will conclude that one individuals misdemeanour or transgression as being a systemic failure of the particular training organisation rather than the individuals failing. I am not sure how we can change that mentality.


As for the whole lot being shockers..I was refering to students, not companies...but agreed, a hip shot...a flashback of being lumped with remedial students and that number of remedials increasing in the later years of my instructing career.

I think OKTAS8 has put across some similar thoughts to what I was attempting to say but clearer than I.

Also in case any future comments waver from one standpoint: I don't think you should interpret my spine as disappearing because I may not maintain a singular militant viewpoint throughout. Remember when having a debate one must be open to the other's veiwpoint or indeed what is the point of the discussion?

[cloudcover]

ZK-NSN Oh I see, because I dont look down on massey
students, I must have gone there:ok:

Thats a perfect example of the anti-massey mentality!

If one guy is a ****, they must all be:hmm:

[stillalbatross]

Do pilots anywhere else on the planet have the "my training school's better than your training school mentality"?

Anyone heard the sales pitch from AFS recently, what about the one about how you can join Cathay as a S/O with only 10 hours in your logbook if you fly at AFS?

They are all businesses and with student loans the money is a bit more accesssable to more students. Any school that gives just the cold hard facts isn't going to survive these days in the cut throat world of flight training.

[Speeds high]

I really dont know what the Massey training is like, id like to point this out first, this post is not about the traiing there, but the perception to the outside observer.

Now thats over with.....

It appears to me that Massey have not done themselves any favours, at any point in time.

1) They sit there own exams rather than the ASL exams the rest of us did, the point here is that the rest of the community are left wondering whats wrong with the way we did it

2) The uniforms make them stand out

3) the call signs make them stand out

4) the paint jobs make them stand out

5) Massey instructors and students are rarely seen mixing with other avaiton folk, they seperate themselves out of the bunch

6) The rest of the GA community gets (rightly or wrongly, im not saying which) irate with there big jet ideas.

The avaition community never seperated Massey from itself, right from day one Massey seperated itself from the aviation community. IF your going to do that, and make yourself so visable you had sure as hell better make sure that you are doing it right.

I dont know if Massey are doing it right or wrong, however they need look no further than there own front door when it comes to asking why everyone percives it as wrong.

[Woodend1]

I think the problem with these big flight schools is that they develop a bit of a vicious cycle. You have generally below average students turning into below average instructors, thus teaching thier lack of understanding of the basics to other students.

DVDA, I think you've hit the Massey nail on the head!

[flyby_kiwi]

Anyone heard the sales pitch from AFS recently, what about the one about how you can join Cathay as a S/O with only 10 hours in your logbook if you fly at AFS?

And who told you that B**S***?

I used to fly out of AFS when the Massey op was at full pace and never got the sales pitch you claimed to have. The AFS guys wernt bad and nor have I crossed paths with anyone from massey so apart from the uniforms ( :yuk: ) I dont really give a toss about them enough to whinge.

Wheres the Maori Mobster anyway? :ok:

[Oktas8]

DVDA & Woodend1 - regarding your comments on below average instructors training other below average instructors at Massey:

I don't know about the latest course of Massey C-cats - never met them, don't know what their standard is.

The previous three courses were trained to a higher standard than any other C-cat courses I know of, by one or more A-cats with a reasonable amount of GA experience.

So which particular individuals do you have in mind? No need to name names - just state the year the person got a C-cat.

Now it is true that Massey-trained C-cats tend to get a bit insular because they don't mix with industry. This does lead to a similarity of instructional style developing at an institution, where in a large aero club you get all kinds of styles coming through.

But that is not the same as having low standards.

I've met a very few instructors from different backgrounds I wasn't too sure about. I'd tend to "blame" the individual for that, not the institution.

BTW - please note I'm not defending Massey. My previous post showed that I'm not into defending unethical behaviour or shonky student behaviour. But I am very keen to shine the light on weak arguments of those who further the ridiculous notion that all Massey pilots behave in some particular way just because we've observed that not a few students are absolute plonkers.

For goodness sake - do a course in inductive logic.

Speeds high - [paragraph deleted, not relevant] I agree with your last post.

Oktas8

[DVDA]

Okta-puss, I was merely commenting on the big flight schools in general. I dont recall writing anything at all regarding those muppets at massey. yawn next please....:zzz:

[stuckwithmassey]

No im not a 737 driver..
No i dont work in the tower
Yes i have had realtions with massey university

Yes I fell victim to the bait. A licence that every operator in the business requires and the added bonus of a degree. Yes u may say u dont need the ATPL subjects that are part and parcel but if ur like me u enjoy all the aviation knowledge u can get.

Hook line and sinker, i happily enrolled and embarked on the massey roller coaster ride of my life along with 20 other trainees. (of these very few remained at the final stages of the course). The effectiveness of the in depth selection process is somewhat ridiculed if u ask me and is it not a blatant attempt at securing governent funds by pretenting to screen applicants??

One of the funny stories i heard after i had enrolled was that an airline in asia will be needing some of the fresh graduates. Ha Ha. what ever..Propaganda gone wild.


I snubbed my local aeroclub infavour of the loans. I thought to myself the government wouldnt lend me 70k if they werent going to get the money back would they? Well yes they have and the opportunities of earning a living sufficient of re paying my loan are non existent at present.

This is not Masseys fault but more over is a systemic failing of all parties associated with the administration of both training providers/ education institutes financial resources.

Massey and the other training organisation involved with aviation are making the most of what they are being offered by the ill equiped government agencies responsible for the issue of student loans.

Before i get side tracked, i do have a bone to pick with massey and it's training. While the theory presentation ie the asl exam equivalents is tremendous,the flying instruction seems to lack a crucial ingredient.

I heard the word "airmanship" bantered earlier and agree with this finding. Airmanship is not learned overnight so how do u propose a masseystudent to learn the concept?? Experienced instructors and the old boys out the back in the hanger could contribute, but what is wrong socialisng and learning from the knowlegable folk once we have a license. Anyone can read past anecdotes and gain some form of appreciation. I personally think that airmaship is spawned from charasmatic CFI's. Is massey lacking one of these?????????

I find some of the claims of unsafe piloting quite believable and would like to hear more of anyones experiences with massey pilots. The blame for this must be shouldered by the instructors but also flight examiners who issue the licences. I know i wouldnt want to be up in the air with those kind of pilots.

If u read it earlier,only a small proportion of students under going instruction actually graduate and and recieve the CPL. So rest assured a large number of these dangerous unsafe pilots wont ever work in the industry and are unlikely to continue flying when its no longer paid for by aunty Helen.

I think the only way to judge an organisation is to ask the customers ie the student how they feel. Any ex students are encouraged to msg me as there are certain difficulties we are currently experiencing and i would like to hear if this went on previously.

One thing that is for sure is that Massey is taking a hard look at itself with the closure of the Ardmore operation and hopefully the consolidation pays off.

Kind donations of flying jobs or money are kindly accepted by the author who is considering changing his name to avoid his debt..

[bigfella5]

God..................been out of NZ for a few years now........thanks for the reminder why boys!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Massey058]

Well as my name suggests I am training at Massey, very interesting viewpoints from such informed people thats for sure.

I'll be the first to admit there are many aspects of the course that I and my fellow course mates are unhappy with, but despite the difficulties we face I must say that in general I have been impressed with the academic side of things.

We don't sit ASL exams and when we have gone over them for practice i'm often glad that we don't. Equivallence means that the required pass is 70% and if you don't get that and people sometimes don't and if you then fail a resit, basically thats it you're out or back a semester if you choose to do that.

I don't have any grand illusions of immdeiately stepping from my massey training straight into a transport jet, i feel sorry for people that may have. I made the choice that I wanted a degree and the only career path that I am interested in is aviation so it just seemed natural to go to massey, I have no disrespect for any others in the training industry, they have made the choice that is right for them.

As I stated I am by no means over the moon with a few things within the school but this is what I want to do in life and it just happens Massey are providing it. It just suprises me that in an industry where I have had the oppurtunity to meet and talk with so many amazing people that there can be others like this.

Takes all people I suppose

[Massey058]

I don't believe I've been brainwashed by massey at all, maybe you didn't read the post, there are some issues at the moment but by and large its what I want to do and i'm sticking with it, I am fortunate that I have a very good instructor and some good lecturers that help maintain sanity.

Yes there are average instructors at massey even, you might even find them in the rest of GA falling asleep in a C152. There are lifetime instructors who don't really care and there are those using it purely as an hours building platform and then there are some good ones in between.

I'm not here to stick up for massey, as i've said when you read the post there are some things that aren't so great, as you'll find with anything in life but i can give you a few facts. The School is consolidating because it expanded before its time thanks to some smart management folk, now that ardmore is closing intakes at PM are being kept to just over 20 every 6 months which is a tricky logistical task from the rabbit warren we operate out of. Theres been no real movement in instructors from PM this year, one has gone to Eagle others of course have applications pending, some ardomre ones will be moving here and others moving on. The school is advertising for B-cat instructors at the moment. They took no new instructors form the last flight instructor course no relflection on their skills, some have gone overseas. There are five on the current course and applications for next years course will probably be limited to 3 from 2 courses.

I would agree with that rating of Massey University, they are one of the major problems with the school of aviaiton. They just have no idea and the won't listen to students or staff, hence the consolidation of academics to the Turitea campus. If another uni offered the course and things seemed better there then i'm sure massey's association with flying training would probably end.

And sorry to finally answer you're question about were I am going with this degree although you've probably long since tired, I hope to get a job in GA flying anything from a single to a seneca and if I have no luck there then I am quite interested in flight operations, or even coffee spilling (ATC). Failing all that like many grads I could look for work overseas. But as I've said before I have no grand illusions of getting a high paying jet job in the near future if ever.

I would be interested to know what you do in the industry and what you're association with massey is:}

[wheatools]

Readbackcorrect, the origonal point of this post was to discover the perception massey students/graduates in the industry not a platform for you to slag off anyone who has/is training(ed) at the massey school. Dont you think that your attitude is a little unfair? i.e just because some people who completed the training (from a few accounts when the course began) came out with an arrogant attitude and all people tarnished with the same brush? Just because you obviously have a problem with somebody/something at massey why do you have this problem with all massey trained pilots? I am interested to discover the reasons why you have this attitude? where there certain instances that brought this about?

I also dont believe anyone is brainwashed by ANY flying schools advertising. Anyone entering the industry forking out the huge amount of cash involved in the training does research and chooses the best course for THEMSELVES...its only common sence!

[Thump & Go]

Or sense even!:E

[Hughesy]

I may not be a plank driver, but i do have my ppl (A), although uncurrent.
I was trained by Massey, and i found ALL their instructors to be excellent, helpful, committed, excited about thier jobs, both inside the aircraft and out off it.
After i finished with thm to pursue my career in helicopters (which are awesome to fly, preparing to duck now :D ), i found even 2 years later, when i pop in for a visit, even if they don't know me, they are still the same.
UNLIKE other plank schools, where i felt UNWELCOME, Massey was and still is different.
In my earlier days i was self studying my CPL subjects, and i went to one local flight school (not Massey) and introduced myself, and asked if they had any practise navigation exams i could use.....basically I got told to F**K OFF by the CFI, because i didnt train with them.
That to me shows a poor attitude, and some thing i wont forget, so when i meet people who want to learn to fly planks instead of Heli's, I dont even mention THAT school.

I really enjoyed my time at Massey, and would do it again.
The rest of you who are bagging Massey, get off your Soapbox, stop being petty, or even jealous and just enjoy flying, who you fly with, who you meet and clear skys.
Some days you meet people from different areas, and you may choose not to mingle, but tomorrow they may not be alive, and you have missed a chance to meet someone who could leave a lasting impression.
It has happend to me.

Fly safe all
Hughesy