IMC in UK in N reg with IMC rating

[baldwinm]

Is this legal?


Sorry if this has been answered before but the search engine appears to be disabled at the moment

[FlyingForFun]

I may be wrong, but my first thought would be No.

According to FARs, you can not fly an N-registered airplane (sic) except on an FAA license. Since you can't attach an IMC rating to an FAA license, you will not have the rating on the license which you are using.

Editted to add this thought: if you want to fly an N-registered aircraft in IMC, I can't think of any good reason not to get an FAA IR in any case. Especially if you already have an IMC rating, since all of your IMC training and subsequent IMC flying will count towards the training for the FAA rating.

FFF
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[Chilli Monster]

FFF - sorry, wrong. Have a look at the thread running in "Bizjets and GA"

If you're flying in the UK on the basis of your UK licence you operate in accordance with your licence - not with whatever letter is stamped on the side of the aircraft. That includes any ratings contained within.

There is nothing to stop you flying an 'N' reg on a UK licence in the UK - the problem comes when you go outside the country and, unless you have a licence 'validated' for use in that country then you are limited to same nationality of licence as registration of aircraft.

Possible you're confusing the FAR's rulings with that involving flying an 'N' reg in the USA - where you do need an FAA licence (albeit issued normally on the back of an existing ICAO one).

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, that's the rule I'm thinking of, CM.

I had thought that N-registered aircraft always need to be operated in accordance with FARs (including aforementioned rule about needing an FAA license), but if that's not the case, then what baldwinm's suggesting probably is legal, and I've learnt something new :ok:

I still maintain that you may as well get an FAA IR, though!

FFF
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[baldwinm]

I was sure that flying an N reg was o.k. on a UK licence in the UK but i would need to get an FAA certificate to fly abroad. However what I was not sure about, and I'm still not is whether I would be able to use my IMC rating. I would certainly consider getting an FAA IR in future.

[2Donkeys]

If you hold a JAA (or CAA) PPL with an IMC rating, you are entitled to fly an N reg aircraft in the UK in IMC, just as if it had a G on the side. There are no restrictions or ifs and buts associated with that case.

As you say, if you wish to leave the UK FIR, you are required to hold an FAA licence in order to comply with the FARs This is because according to the FARS an N reg aircraft can be flown either by an FAA licence holder or by the holder of a licence "issued" in the country whose airspace is being navigated. This has been interpreted to rule out flying the aircraft elsewere in JAA-land, even if you hold a JAA licence.

2D

[baldwinm]

Thanks to those who replied.

To sum up this and a related thread I'm o.k. with my IMC rating in an N reg, but an ADF and DME should be specified in the Avionics fit. An FAA IR would be worth thinking about in the future.

[DFC]

FFF and CM,

FAR 61.3.a.1 permits the holder of a UK licence to act as pilot in command of an N registered aircraft within within the UK. No probs there.

However, reading down the FAR a little further reveals the following;

"(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown; "

My reading of that regulation says that one can not fly an N registered aircraft under IFR or in IMC unless the pilot holds an Instrument Rating.

This I believe has two consequences;

1. The IMC rating is not an Instrument rating and thus does not meet this requirement. In order to fly IFR or in IMC in the UK a UK licensed pilot would need an IR (either FAA or CAA).

2. Slightly off topic - but the UK requires all flights by night to be IFR. The above regulation for N registered aircraft requires the pilot to hold an IR before flying IFR. Thus to fly night VMC in the UK the pilot of an N registered aircraft must hold an IR.

Regards,

DFC

PS I wonder if an NPPL would count since it fails to meet ICAO requirements?

Perhaps someone should ask the FAA or would that be tempting fate?

[2Donkeys]

DFC

Your reading of the FARs is overly restrictive. The word "appropriate" applies in the context of the licence being employed. Having established that a foreign licence is "appropriate" for flight in an N reg aircraft in a foreign country, a legal and valid endorsement on that foreign licence is also "appropriate".

There is no problem flying an N-reg in the UK at night or in IMC if you hold an IMC rating.

2D

[IO540]

For what this is worth, I have an email from the CAA stating that I can fly an N-reg in the UK, have my full PPL/IMCR privileges with no restrictions, PROVIDED THE FAA DON'T MIND.

It also goes on to say, incidentally, that as the IMCR removes the need to fly in sight of surface, and as this removal is valid worldwide, I can fly VMC on top in e.g. France, again provided the DGAC don't mind.

[Chilli Monster]

DFC

Concurring with 2D's, and adding a bit more to your reading. 14 CFR 61.3 (e) is purely applicable to the United States. Reason being that no country can legislate licence requirements in another country.

You'll notice if you read down (para 3) it talks about licenses with glider rating - which would not be applicable in the UK as there is no such thing. It is purely aimed at the flight within CONUS and associated states and posessions (which we aren't yet ;) )

[2Donkeys]

Reason being that no country can legislate licence requirements in another country.

Much as I hate to disagree with one who is agreeing with me, that is not strictly correct.

The FAA has the right to determine how an aircraft of N-registry is flown, no matter where in the world it might be. However, by explicitly accepting ICAO licences for flight in N-reg aircraft when in the airspace of the ICAO country issuing the licence concerned, that particular base is covered.

[DFC]

The FAA has the right to determine how an aircraft of N-registry is flown, no matter where in the world it might be. However, by explicitly accepting ICAO licences for flight in N-reg aircraft when in the airspace of the ICAO country issuing the licence concerned, that particular base is covered.

That is the exact point and the important phrase there being "ICAO Licences"

The NPPL is not an ICAO licence.

The IMC rating is not an ICAO rating.

IO540 has asked the CAA and the answer was OK provied the FAA also say it is OK. The CAA can not issue IMC ratings and then say that one can not use them. However, the CAA can not say what is permitted on another countries aircraft.

If one has not asked the FAA then how can one know if it is OK or not!

I don't have access to the appropriate ICAO annex. But I expect that there is somewhere in that annex that countries will accept the ICAO licences and ratings of a second country for private pilot privileges. Again it only works when ICAO standards are met!

The FAA give no credit for holding an IMC rating. On that basis one could expect that they would not recognise the IMC as meting their reqirement to hold an IR in certtain cases when flying one of their aircraft.

If the FAA were to accept an IMC rating as meeting the requirements then it could be obliged to allow the IMC rating to be exercised within the USA - not something likely to happen.

As I said in the last post - best ask the FAA!

Regards,

DFC

[FlyingForFun]

...then it could be obliged to allow the IMC rating to be exercised within the USA I'm pretty sure (but I've been wrong once on this thread already, so take this with a pinch of salt!) that the ANO specifically says that the IMC rating is not valid outside the UK. So it doesn't matter what the FAA say, if the CAA say that you can't use it in America then you definitely can't!

But this is getting way off of the original question now!

FFF
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[2Donkeys]

Its amazing the loops that people get themselves into every time this thread comes up.


The FARs which govern this actually permit flight in an N-reg in any country in the world, providing the pilot holds a licence issued by the country and valid for the aircraft concerned. The licence does not have to be ICAO recognised (although if it is, the case for recognition is further strengthened).

There is no issue flying an N-reg with an IMC rating in IMC in the UK, subject to the usual limitations of the IMC rating.

The question of the use of the IMC rating outside the UK shouldn't even arise in this context since once outside the UK, a UK-issed licence is not valid for piloting an N-reg aircraft.

2D

[IO540]

FFF

Yes, it is in the ANO that the IMCR is valid UK only.

However when you get the IMCR you are freed from having to be in sight of the surface, and that privilege is valid worldwide - I specifically wrote to the CAA about this and they have confirmed it. I did this in connection with France, where a PPL can fly VMC on top.

[distaff_beancounter]

IO540

Some time back on this forum, I bought up the question as to whether the holder of a CAA PPL+IMC, flying a IR equiped G reg in France, is permitted to fly "VFR on top".

My contention was that French PPLs are allowed to fly "VFR on top" & I can show that I have been trained to do the same.

Anyhow, the general consensus on this forum, was that it would not be legal. As many of the respondents were instructors or examiners, I assumed that they were correct.

So, is the CAA now definitely saying that it is legal?
Or, do we have to specifically apply to the French DGAC first?
:confused: :confused:

[Flyin'Dutch']

DSBC,

The IMC is valid in the UK only so the answer would have to be no.

However I have heard/read somewhere that if you hold a UK licence with an IMC rating you are allowed to do night VFR in Germany but not if you don't have an IMC rating.

Dunno whether that is true or an urban myth.

FD

[IO540]

distaff_beancounter

I have it in writing from the CAA, very clearly, that while the IMC Rating itself is valid UK only, the part of it which absolves you from having to be in sight of surface is not restricted territorially.

I am happy to PM you the entire email.

As far as the CAA are concerned, a UK/JAR PPL/IMCR pilot can fly VMC on top in France - provided the DGAC don't mind.

As far as I am aware, nobody has been able to get a response from the DGAC on this precise subject. On other related matters, their response has been "if the CAA don't mind, we don't mind".

So, in the absence of a categorical response from the DGAC, I suppose the next thing would be to find out whether there is anything about an ICAO PPL which explicitly prohibits VMC on top.

[DFC]

"Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes) shall within the
United Kingdom:"

The above is the paragraph title for the IMC rating from the ANO Schedule 8.

"shall within ther United Kingdom" seems to be a fairly distinct limitation to me. :)

No doubt the CAA would like to give it effect outside the UK but unfortunately, the ANO does not.

Why can't the CAA do like other JAA and ICAO countries - let PPLs fly in VMC without further restriction.

Is pilot A with 75 hours and an IMC in a microlight going to be safer than pilot B with 1000 hours but no IMC in the same aircraft when the visibility is 2.5K? Doubt it!!!

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

"Instrument meteorological conditions rating (aeroplanes) shall within the
United Kingdom:"

The above is the paragraph title for the IMC rating from the ANO Schedule 8.

"shall within ther United Kingdom" seems to be a fairly distinct limitation to me.

But that's the point, DFC. The part that you quote from Part B does not impose limitations on the holder of an IMC rating. It details the privileges. The limitations for a PPL are set out in Part A of the schedule. It mentions no geographical limitations.

The UK CAA are not entitled to offer privileges outside the UK that go beyond the privileges of an ICAO PPL (for example IFR flight in class D/E). But they can lift extra restrictions that are imposed on UK PPLs that limit the privileges to a greater extent than they would be limited in an ICAO PPL. Hence the ability to fly out of sight of the surface under VFR with an IMC rating.

[englishal]

I'm with IO on this. I think we covered the definitions of VFR flight elsewhere, but to summarise, there is no requirement to be "In sight of the surface" when flying VFR under ICAO rules. Now different countries have different rules, and the UK restricts PPLs to "must be in sight of the surface". The IMC rating removes this restriction, so assuming France is happy to allow VFR On top then there is no legal reason why a UK PPL / IMC rating holder has to be "in sight of the surface"....

EA